The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[C T]

That feels a little underwhelming for some reason.

Would definitely have like Skinner on the bench

Seeing Gilchrist on the bench gives me a spot of the fear.

[Soapy]

With Hogg presumably covering 10 its a good job POM's not going to be on the pitch!

Of course, now both Russell and Hogg are going to get crocked in the first 15 mins and Nel will move to standoff and Jonny Gray will take the pots at goal.

[I like neeps]

That feels a little underwhelming for some reason.

Would definitely have like Skinner on the bench

The Challenge - Playing Ireland. Constantly beaten up up front by them. Need to be highly competitive at the breakdown, abrasive, confrontational and have a low penalty count.

The Solution - Bring on Grant Gilchrist after 55 mins ...

I can't believe Gilchrist continues to be picked. I cannot believe it. A big, inneffective lump who haemorrhages penalties.

We always say scotland should beat Ireland but with that bench I don't think we're anything but underdogs.

[KingBlairhorn]

That feels a little underwhelming for some reason.

Would definitely have like Skinner on the bench

The front row is a big step down from our best across the 23. Otherwise, for me, the 15 looks very solid which is what you want against a relentless Irish side. The bench looks very weak. I wouldn't even have Gilchrist in my Edinburgh 23 right now, let alone benching for Scotland.

I guess just thinking what's missing. Redpath, Hastings, Skinner, Fagerson, even Taylor.

I don't pay enough attention to who is missing for other countries but it always seems the way for us that we are without a large number of top players - it's very frustrating. We've discussed it before though, it's probably due to the steepness of the drop-off in our player quality more than the number suspended/injured at any time. England and France could probably put out a 5th choice 23 not that much worse than their first choice. If we are into our second choice 23 we'd probably have a bunch of guys who don't even have a pro contract in there.

[Yr Alban]

That feels a little underwhelming for some reason.

Would definitely have like Skinner on the bench

The front row is a big step down from our best across the 23. Otherwise, for me, the 15 looks very solid which is what you want against a relentless Irish side. The bench looks very weak. I wouldn't even have Gilchrist in my Edinburgh 23 right now, let alone benching for Scotland.

Starting team as expected, given the injuries. Only controversial call Johnson over Lang, not because of how Lang has played, but because we have no spare 10. Glad Hogg makes it.

The bench, though... how the actual f**k does Gilchrist get picked over Skinner? Especially given Skinner can cover the back row in a pinch?

[C T]

That feels a little underwhelming for some reason.

Would definitely have like Skinner on the bench

The Challenge - Playing Ireland. Constantly beaten up up front by them. Need to be highly competitive at the breakdown, abrasive, confrontational and have a low penalty count.

The Solution - Bring on Grant Gilchrist after 55 mins ...

I can't believe Gilchrist continues to be picked. I cannot believe it. A big, inneffective lump who haemorrhages penalties.

We always say scotland should beat Ireland but with that bench I don't think we're anything but underdogs.

Not sure who's the worst at conceding penalties, Itoje or Gilchrist.

Itoje at least brings something else to the table, no idea what else Gilchrist brings.

[Soapy]

I can't believe Gilchrist continues to be picked. I cannot believe it. A big, inneffective lump who haemorrhages penalties.

We always say scotland should beat Ireland but with that bench I don't think we're anything but underdogs.

Bhatti - I've watched the last few Bath games and he has scrummaged and generally played well in the 15 minute cameos he's had. On form, I think he's as good as Kebble.
Cherry has made the most of his time on the pitch so happy with him.
Berghan - below par at this level (but no realistic alternative option)
Gilchrist - ...
Haining - if he can find the form from Ireland last year he'll be fine. It's not been apparent recently though.

I'm ok with back replacements but having decided against direct cover at 10, I'm surprised he's not gone with Taylor instead of Jones or Graham.

[I like neeps]

I can't believe Gilchrist continues to be picked. I cannot believe it. A big, inneffective lump who haemorrhages penalties.

We always say scotland should beat Ireland but with that bench I don't think we're anything but underdogs.

Bhatti - I've watched the last few Bath games and he has scrummaged and generally played well in the 15 minute cameos he's had. On form, I think he's as good as Kebble.
Cherry has made the most of his time on the pitch so happy with him.
Berghan - below par at this level (but no realistic alternative option)
Gilchrist - ...
Haining - if he can find the form from Ireland last year he'll be fine. It's not been apparent recently though.

I'm ok with back replacements but having decided against direct cover at 10, I'm surprised he's not gone with Taylor instead of Jones or Graham.

I agree he's done well, it's odd he's not starting at Bath as Schoeman's brother is getting folded up like a deck chair every scrum. I think Bhatti is fine, he's underpowered for internationals though. Kebble is at least massive, think he's good in attack and defence too. No other option but Cherry and Berghan. Haining is okay but Andy Farrell isn't worried about Haining changing the game is he.

I think we've seen about the last of Taylor. Jones and Graham can change a game and I think its start or bust for Dunc and I don't think he's going to start anymore.

[Jock42]

The lack of 10 option is utterly depressing.

[Slick]

The lack of 10 option is utterly depressing.

I presume Hastings would be there if it wasn't for the red?

[Big D]

There is no way a Scotland coach can look Skinner in the eye and say GG is better than him. If they could then they are lying. He's been rotten for a while.

[Jock42]

There is no way a Scotland coach can look Skinner in the eye and say GG is better than him. If they could then they are lying. He's been rotten for a while.

We always seem to comment on here about how the coaches must see something in a certain player we don't. I don't see it!

The lack of 10 option is utterly depressing.

I presume Hastings would be there if it wasn't for the red?

Yeah and there's an element of bad luck with choices 3 and 4 injured. Someone above has talked about absences to other teams but it just feels like it's becoming stereotypical of Scotland to be down to 5th choice and that player doesn't play in that position.

[Tichtheid]

There is no way a Scotland coach can look Skinner in the eye and say GG is better than him. If they could then they are lying. He's been rotten for a while.

Townsend apparently said that Covid restrictions and sending players back to clubs come into play, so more Scotland-based selections are being made just now.

That would certainly account for that particular selection, which does seem odd.

otoh, I'd love for Gilcho to come and play a blinder.

[I like neeps]

There is no way a Scotland coach can look Skinner in the eye and say GG is better than him. If they could then they are lying. He's been rotten for a while.

Townsend apparently said that Covid restrictions and sending players back to clubs come into play, so more Scotland-based selections are being made just now.

That would certainly account for that particular selection, which does seem odd.

otoh, I'd love for Gilcho to come and play a blinder.

It seems a lot more odd to use that reason not to pick Skinner, tell Skinner you're not in the 23 so we don't want you trapsing to camp (interview with Skinner where he says that's the case). Then pick Skinner as a space opens in the 23. Then send him all the way home to Exeter. Poor treatment of a player. Very poor.

Everyone would love Gilchrist to play a blinder. But he's just not that good at the international level so it's unlikely.

[Jock42]

There is no way a Scotland coach can look Skinner in the eye and say GG is better than him. If they could then they are lying. He's been rotten for a while.

Townsend apparently said that Covid restrictions and sending players back to clubs come into play, so more Scotland-based selections are being made just now.

That would certainly account for that particular selection, which does seem odd.

otoh, I'd love for Gilcho to come and play a blinder.

I'm obviously dense as fuck, and I've been mentioning this since the beginning of the tournament, but I don't see how these "bubbles" work. If they're in the squad they're switching between "bubbles" so how does that exclude selection?

[Yr Alban]

The front row is a big step down from our best across the 23. Otherwise, for me, the 15 looks very solid which is what you want against a relentless Irish side. The bench looks very weak. I wouldn't even have Gilchrist in my Edinburgh 23 right now, let alone benching for Scotland.

I guess just thinking what's missing. Redpath, Hastings, Skinner, Fagerson, even Taylor.

I don't pay enough attention to who is missing for other countries but it always seems the way for us that we are without a large number of top players - it's very frustrating. We've discussed it before though, it's probably due to the steepness of the drop-off in our player quality more than the number suspended/injured at any time. England and France could probably put out a 5th choice 23 not that much worse than their first choice. If we are into our second choice 23 we'd probably have a bunch of guys who don't even have a pro contract in there.

I know I’m a stuck record on this, but your last sentence is precisely why we need a third pro team, even if it’s a development side, so that we have more players getting exposed to that level of rugby.

Our depth is much better than it used to be, but there are still some areas where we are weaker (3, 8 and 10 right now) and for some reason we seem to specialise in having multiple options for the same position all injured and/or suspended at once. The high water mark for this was when our first four looseheads were all injured and we had to start Marfo in three games (and he did superbly!) but it’s uncanny how we are missing our #1 and #2 hookers, our #2, #3 and #4 stand-offs, and our #1 in our weakest position currently (THP).

The best teams can be knocked off balance by a few injuries if they are in the same position. Remember Stephen Donald being recalled from holiday to start for the ABs in the RWC? I know he ended up a hero, but at the time he was seen very much as a barrel-scraping 4th choice.

[KingBlairhorn]

I guess just thinking what's missing. Redpath, Hastings, Skinner, Fagerson, even Taylor.

I don't pay enough attention to who is missing for other countries but it always seems the way for us that we are without a large number of top players - it's very frustrating. We've discussed it before though, it's probably due to the steepness of the drop-off in our player quality more than the number suspended/injured at any time. England and France could probably put out a 5th choice 23 not that much worse than their first choice. If we are into our second choice 23 we'd probably have a bunch of guys who don't even have a pro contract in there.

I know I’m a stuck record on this, but your last sentence is precisely why we need a third pro team, even if it’s a development side, so that we have more players getting exposed to that level of rugby.

Our depth is much better than it used to be, but there are still some areas where we are weaker (3, 8 and 10 right now) and for some reason we seem to specialise in having multiple options for the same position all injured and/or suspended at once. The high water mark for this was when our first four looseheads were all injured and we had to start Marfo in three games (and he did superbly!) but it’s uncanny how we are missing our #1 and #2 hookers, our #2, #3 and #4 stand-offs, and our #1 in our weakest position currently (THP).

The best teams can be knocked off balance by a few injuries if they are in the same position. Remember Stephen Donald being recalled from holiday to start for the ABs in the RWC? I know he ended up a hero, but at the time he was seen very much as a barrel-scraping 4th choice.

If you can unearth a super-rich Scottish rugby fan to bankroll one of the existing teams (or a new team) for a minimum of a decade then sure, but it just isn't feasible in the current situation. I've been told that Ian Wood, who is a bona fide billionaire took a look at it within the last decade and even someone of his means balked at the commitment required to run a shoestring pro team out of Aberdeen. Martin Gilbert of Aberdeen Asset Management (now Aberdeen Standard) looked at it too with a view to the business bankrolling a team and even they said no! Apparently the SRU have quoted around £35m for a five year commitment (and that was in 2014).

We all agree that the player pool is too shallow and we all agree that a 3rd pro team would largely mitigate the issue, but we also have to be realists and see that it is just not achievable at present. The SRU are constantly looking at ways to increase the pool (i.e. their partnership agreements in France, the US and at one point with London Scottish) and they have also looked at taking a share in an English Prem team (i.e. Worcester Warriors) that would be more self-sustaining than a Pro14 team to send players to, but the numbers presumably just didn't stack up.

I want a 3rd (and 4th) team badly, but if you hang your hat on that as the only solution then unfortunately we are doomed to failure and we all might as well jack it in now.

[Slick]

I guess we need to give Super6 a decent go. I quite liked what I saw when it started and seems the only viable option to bring through talent at the moment

[Yr Alban]

I know, we have had the argument before, and it goes round and round in circles. The problem (for me) is that if we don't find a way to achieve this, then we might as well jack it in too. We may have the odd good year, and win the occasional big match, but we'll never win another title and we'll have to watch Wales and Ireland leave us further and further behind.

So nobody wants to invest in a pro team with the SRU's price tag? Perhaps the SRU should consider dropping that price tag just a wee bit, and sweeten the pot with a bit (not all) of this new money, and see if any of the people you mention are interested.

[KingBlairhorn]

I guess we need to give Super6 a decent go. I quite liked what I saw when it started and seems the only viable option to bring through talent at the moment

The loss of Super6 and the 7s programme have both exacerbated the issue this year. You would think one or the other would have been likely destinations for a number of the young players at both Edinburgh and Glasgow this year. Boyle, Darge, Miller, Shiel, Muncaster, Chamberlain, Currie, Paterson and Blain at Edinburgh and McDowall, Nairn, McLean, Thomson, McCallum and Smith at Glasgow all would have had significant opportunities in one or the other. That is a lot of talent kicking their heels and I totally understand what Yr Alban is saying about it being potentially very damaging for their development.

[Yr Alban]

I agree we have enough players but not enough to have 3 competitive teams.

Agree - just look at Glasgow and Edinburgh without their internationals and fringe internationals. Both far closer to the bottom than the top.

A third pro team would likely get horsed weekly and make Glasgow and Edinburgh weaker at the same time. But I'm convinced now we prpbably do need that. Cutting the borders was a huge strategic error. An interesting hypothetical is if Dodson and Johnson would have.

Meant to say this yesterday: Embra and Glasgow get strip-mined every international weekend, as you'd expect. If we somehow managed to get another team off the ground, each team would lose fewer players (net), and could field an XV on international days which might not be as strong, but at least might bear a greater resemblance to the one they field the rest of the time. It's pretty hard to maintain consistency if 90% of your senior players disappear.

[Slick]

I know, we have had the argument before, and it goes round and round in circles. The problem (for me) is that if we don't find a way to achieve this, then we might as well jack it in too. We may have the odd good year, and win the occasional big match, but we'll never win another title and we'll have to watch Wales and Ireland leave us further and further behind.

So nobody wants to invest in a pro team with the SRU's price tag? Perhaps the SRU should consider dropping that price tag just a wee bit, and sweeten the pot with a bit (not all) of this new money, and see if any of the people you mention are interested.

I’ve had this conversation with a few mates but surely it can’t be beyond the with of someone to get these high net worth individuals in a room and get £35m out of them. There are a lot of wealthy, and some super wealthy individuals who love rugby, have decent egos, and might just buy into a larger group. Maybe it’s been tried, dunno. But if the SRU paid me a few quid I’d have a go at getting them together

[Slick]

I guess we need to give Super6 a decent go. I quite liked what I saw when it started and seems the only viable option to bring through talent at the moment

The loss of Super6 and the 7s programme have both exacerbated the issue this year. You would think one or the other would have been likely destinations for a number of the young players at both Edinburgh and Glasgow this year. Boyle, Darge, Miller, Shiel, Muncaster, Chamberlain, Currie, Paterson and Blain at Edinburgh and McDowall, Nairn, McLean, Thomson, McCallum and Smith at Glasgow all would have had significant opportunities in one or the other. That is a lot of talent kicking their heels and I totally understand what Yr Alban is saying about it being potentially very damaging for their development.

I do think they have missed a trick with the Super6 by not making it regional but still attached to a club- Edinburgh South by Watsonians, Borders at Melrose etc, but I’m still more than willing to give it a try

[fishfoodie]

Did the SRU chip in any money to fund London Scottish ?

If it isn't feasible to start a native 3rd club to develop Scottish players; is the next best thing to take an established club down south, & develop it into a club that can survive in the Premiership, & become a feeder to the Scottish team, & have the hated English pay for it

[Slick]

Did the SRU chip in any money to fund London Scottish ?

If it isn't feasible to start a native 3rd club to develop Scottish players; is the next best thing to take an established club down south, & develop it into a club that can survive in the Premiership, & become a feeder to the Scottish team, & have the hated English pay for it

The main problem with it is if you want RFU money you have to be developing EQ players

[fishfoodie]

Did the SRU chip in any money to fund London Scottish ?

If it isn't feasible to start a native 3rd club to develop Scottish players; is the next best thing to take an established club down south, & develop it into a club that can survive in the Premiership, & become a feeder to the Scottish team, & have the hated English pay for it

The main problem with it is if you want RFU money you have to be developing EQ players

But all the clubs get their cut of the TV money; & in a decent stadium, & in London; they should be able to get decent enough gates, & run the underage systems, that are the core of a development club

[I like neeps]

I agree we have enough players but not enough to have 3 competitive teams.

Agree - just look at Glasgow and Edinburgh without their internationals and fringe internationals. Both far closer to the bottom than the top.

A third pro team would likely get horsed weekly and make Glasgow and Edinburgh weaker at the same time. But I'm convinced now we prpbably do need that. Cutting the borders was a huge strategic error. An interesting hypothetical is if Dodson and Johnson would have.

Meant to say this yesterday: Embra and Glasgow get strip-mined every international weekend, as you'd expect. If we somehow managed to get another team off the ground, each team would lose fewer players (net), and could field an XV on international days which might not be as strong, but at least might bear a greater resemblance to the one they field the rest of the time. It's pretty hard to maintain consistency if 90% of your senior players disappear.

Eventually but not for a very long time though. Glasgow and Edinburgh aren't giving up their Scotland players to a new pro team. So the SRU would have to shuffle them when out of contract and those guys would have to want to go (presumably don't have other offers). The third pro team for a while would be youngsters & fringe guys like Glenn Bryce/Jimmy Johnstone so international weekends Glasgow and Edinburgh are still strip mined and then lose their international depth anyway.

I'm in agreement a third pro team is needed. But it'd be at the cost of Glasgow and Edinburgh getting weaker for the foreseeable.

[dkm57]

Blindingly obvious we've reached the point where we have almost enough players of the quality to need a third team to develop their potential. It's now a chicken/egg situation, but for consideration -
Wales 4 regional teams, continually exceed expectations/predictions
Ireland 4 teams 1 was developmental but now fully competitive at Pro14/Europe level
Italy 2 teams, national team are annual whipping boys in the 6N
Scotland 2 teams mid table pro14, national team perpetual gallant losers.

I m sick at heart of our players being gallant fucking losers.

We have reached the stage where we have a plethora of talented young players in desperate need of development/game time. Time to stop dicking around.

[Biffer]

Still don't see where the money comes from. We can't just shit every penny from CVC into it.

[dkm57]

Still don't see where the money comes from. We can't just shit every penny from CVC into it.

a

Neither can I, maybe hack the Sarries bank account?

What does it take to run a pro team?

I do think the idea of the SRU lowering their sites and trying to put together consortium might be an option.

All well above my pay grade though.

[fishfoodie]

Still don't see where the money comes from. We can't just shit every penny from CVC into it.

Personally I think spending it all on Murrayfield is crackers too.

It's taken far too long, to get both sides their own, home grounds; the soundest way to fund a club, is for them to build a fan base, & get bums on seats, & provide the match day experience, that people have come to expect. Hopefully now, you'll have both teams in grounds that are a good fit, & that stability will increase attendance; especially if they're playing a decent brand of rugby.

There seem to be some people in the SRU who don't see anything beyond their boxes in Murrayfield; for the few games there every year; & they're focused on squeezing every penny out of the punters on those days; rather than going from 3-4k attending Pro14 games, to 5-6k.

[dkm57]

Still don't see where the money comes from. We can't just shit every penny from CVC into it.

Personally I think spending it all on Murrayfield is crackers too.

It's taken far too long, to get both sides their own, home grounds; the soundest way to fund a club, is for them to build a fan base, & get bums on seats, & provide the match day experience, that people have come to expect. Hopefully now, you'll have both teams in grounds that are a good fit, & that stability will increase attendance; especially if they're playing a decent brand of rugby.

There seem to be some people in the SRU who don't see anything beyond their boxes in Murrayfield; for the few games there every year; & they're focused on squeezing every penny out of the punters on those days; rather than going from 3-4k attending Pro14 games, to 5-6k.

Have to agree, looked at going to Scotstoun, maybe even see about a couple of season tickets, reality is it's a non-starter, parking and transport near impossible from here. But then I don't have a corporate box at Murrayfield.

[Yr Alban]

Still don't see where the money comes from. We can't just shit every penny from CVC into it.

As mentioned above, people have been interested in investing but the SRU’s price has put them off. Put a small slice of the CVC money on the table and drop the asking price a bit. See if anyone shows an interest.

[KingBlairhorn]

A really fun match tonight for Glasgow. Ross Thomson was fantastic at 10, hugely composed and made zero mistakes. He really dictated the game in what was a very promising performance. Rufus McLean was also brilliant, he looked like vintage Keith Earls on kick-chase at times (but obviously 100% less gurney).

[Dogbert]

A great game for the neutral in usual Glasgow weather, would have loved to have been there

Glasgow's indiscipline at the beginning and the end of the match almost handed it to the Ospreys , but lets concentrate on the positives

Wilson & BBB outstanding in the pack

Most of the youngsters had good games

Mclean showing true class, and Dobie , when he came in was streets ahead of Kennedy

Most of the Plaudits however deservedly go to Thomson, a flawless kicking performance , good game management , instinctively pretty much always chooses the correct plays , and the grubber kick for Mclean's try was as sexy as anything Russell has done

[dkm57]

A great game for the neutral in usual Glasgow weather, would have loved to have been there

Glasgow's indiscipline at the beginning and the end of the match almost handed it to the Ospreys , but lets concentrate on the positives

Wilson & BBB outstanding in the pack

Most of the youngsters had good games

Mclean showing true class, and Dobie , when he came in was streets ahead of Kennedy

Most of the Plaudits however deservedly go to Thomson, a flawless kicking performance , good game management , instinctively pretty much always chooses the correct plays , and the grubber kick for Mclean's try was as sexy as anything Russell has done

Can't argue with any of that, Dobie/Thompson is a mouth-watering prospect

[Yr Alban]

Reckon we have an heir apparent to Russell & Hastings. Which is superb news.

[world class phil]

A really fun match tonight for Glasgow. Ross Thomson was fantastic at 10, hugely composed and made zero mistakes. He really dictated the game in what was a very promising performance. Rufus McLean was also brilliant, he looked like vintage Keith Earls on kick-chase at times (but obviously 100% less gurney).

He was fantastic, the grubber try assist for McLean was class. Dare to say some credit to the SRU development as he came through the SRU's rugby academy and the Super 6.
Given some of the journeyman dross at both sides (Edinburgh in particular), would hope that some of them get given opportunities at the next level.

[Dogbert]

Thomson's got a cracking defence too, The Ospreys ran big guys down his channel , and he stood up to everything they chucked at him.

He is some prospect.

People will want to go to watch Glasgow , just to see him , I think he has that real "x" factor , can't wait to get back to Scotstoun

[Tichtheid]

Thomson's got a cracking defence too, The Ospreys ran big guys down his channel , and he stood up to everything they chucked at him.

They did, and he did

He is some prospect.

People will want to go to watch Glasgow , just to see him , I think he has that real "x" factor , can't wait to get back to Scotstoun

The thing with Hastings and Russell is that they always had a running game, sometimes it went belly up when they were just starting out, but at least they died trying.

I've yet to see that with Thompson, yes that is being harsh, he does have great game management already, but I want to see breaks too.