The Brexit Thread

[fishfoodie]

Sounds like the UK food production sector has about 5 years to go, before extinction.

The UK-Australia trade deal: ‘too much for far too little’

When the UK signed its first major post-Brexit trade deal with Australia last summer, the then trade secretary (and later prime minister) Liz Truss proclaimed it was a “win-win” that would slash tariffs, lower prices and improve choice.

But a year and a half after that jubilant announcement, the trade pact has been criticised by a series of politicians and officials who believe errors were made in the push to secure a UK-Australia deal signed by the culmination of the G7 summit in June 2021.

With Rishi Sunak now pledging to take a more patient approach to signing deals — including with India and membership of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership — business groups and trade experts are warning the UK must be more strategic when cutting future agreements, while also doing more to win public support at home for international trade.

According to multiple senior Whitehall officials, the Australia trade agreement was rushed through due to the hard political deadline set by Truss, combined with a lack of negotiating expertise and experience. “We were trying to move too fast, with not enough care,” one senior civil servant said.

The result was a pact that experts believe was tilted in Australia’s direction — and was particularly advantageous for its farming industry — because of the desire to get the first major post-Brexit deal over the line. George Eustice, the former environment secretary, admitted last month the deal “gave away far too much for far too little in return”.

...

https://www.ft.com/content/bb70437e-b56 ... 2424c0b0de

Of course; the ability to ditch this shitty deal, is another arrow in the quiver of the SNP, when it comes to pitching the advantages of Scottish Independance. !

In Oz at the moment and every conversation I have that brings up the current state of the U.K. (most) the locals are actively laughing in my face about this deal.

Ozzies were pretty salty when the UK joined the EEC, because it cut them out of the existing trading relationship they had; so this time around, it was the Ozzies holding all the cards

[dpedin]

It really isn't going well is it! The loss of revenue to the UK Gov is just horrendous and one of the main underlying factors around why the Gov is trying to play hardball (misjudged badly) with the public sector pay. Feck knows what they think the next few years are going to be like, it must be awful if they are prepared to die in the ditch over nurses and ambulance pay. Buckle in guys!

I know it will continue to compound, but that's actually less of an impact than I was expecting. £33bn to GDP is obviously a big hit, but for an economy the size of the UK's it could be much worse.

Remember the UK hasn't implemented border checks on EU imports yet - it keeps delaying the implementation (I wonder why ...) now due in 2023. We also have the EES system being implemented in 2023 - this is the biometric checks plus need for a visa waiver for anyone entering the Schengen areas. It will only get worse, a lot worse!

[Hal Jordan]

BELIEVE HARDER YOU TRAITORS!!!!!!!!!!

[fishfoodie]

It really isn't going well is it! The loss of revenue to the UK Gov is just horrendous and one of the main underlying factors around why the Gov is trying to play hardball (misjudged badly) with the public sector pay. Feck knows what they think the next few years are going to be like, it must be awful if they are prepared to die in the ditch over nurses and ambulance pay. Buckle in guys!

I know it will continue to compound, but that's actually less of an impact than I was expecting. £33bn to GDP is obviously a big hit, but for an economy the size of the UK's it could be much worse.

Remember the UK hasn't implemented border checks on EU imports yet - it keeps delaying the implementation (I wonder why ...) now due in 2023. We also have the EES system being implemented in 2023 - this is the biometric checks plus need for a visa waiver for anyone entering the Schengen areas. It will only get worse, a lot worse!

I'd also love to see what trend over that period is for investment !

The reason the Tories are shitting themselves over growth, is that on top of neglecting it for the last decade, when Cameron introduced the uncertainty of Brexit, & then the certainty of leaving, investment dropped off a cliff, & that missing investment will play out in ever weakening growth, & GDP over the next decade.

[dpedin]

I know it will continue to compound, but that's actually less of an impact than I was expecting. £33bn to GDP is obviously a big hit, but for an economy the size of the UK's it could be much worse.

Remember the UK hasn't implemented border checks on EU imports yet - it keeps delaying the implementation (I wonder why ...) now due in 2023. We also have the EES system being implemented in 2023 - this is the biometric checks plus need for a visa waiver for anyone entering the Schengen areas. It will only get worse, a lot worse!

I'd also love to see what trend over that period is for investment !

The reason the Tories are shitting themselves over growth, is that on top of neglecting it for the last decade, when Cameron introduced the uncertainty of Brexit, & then the certainty of leaving, investment dropped off a cliff, & that missing investment will play out in ever weakening growth, & GDP over the next decade.

Agreed! We are rapidly coming to the point where the majority of folk are realising that Brexit, and more so the hard version we ended up with, is a pile of steaming shit and we are literally shooting ourselves in both feet economically whilst the real reason folk voted for it, namely immigration continues to increase and the regaining sovereignty argument is seen as vacuous as Hancock's covid memoirs. The economic hit from Brexit is larger than even 'Project Fear' predicted and is now hitting folk in the pockets, destroying services and degrading our standard of living. It is rapidly being seen as a huge self harm and 2023 will be for me the turning point when folk begin to realise what they have done and look for scapegoats to blame.

[Hal Jordan]

They'll blame anyone but those responsible. Wets, libtards, lefties, the EU, Guardian readers, immigrants, Covid, anyone. Brexit was betrayed.

[Tichtheid]

There is a line in a song that goes, "What do you do when Democracy fails you?"

I'm just really sad that a bunch of purple-faced zealots led the UK to this. They will blame Nicola Sturgeon and others, but if the Union breaks, it will be far more to do with a be-suited City type who smells of beer farts and stale cigar smoke than it is to do with anyone in the lower populated nations who wish to forge their own path having been led up the garden one.

[Sandstorm]

It is rapidly being seen as a huge self harm and 2023 will be for me the turning point when folk begin to realise what they have done and look for scapegoats to blame.

54% need to look in the mirror, then apologise daily to the rest of us.

[I like neeps]

Remember the UK hasn't implemented border checks on EU imports yet - it keeps delaying the implementation (I wonder why ...) now due in 2023. We also have the EES system being implemented in 2023 - this is the biometric checks plus need for a visa waiver for anyone entering the Schengen areas. It will only get worse, a lot worse!

I'd also love to see what trend over that period is for investment !

The reason the Tories are shitting themselves over growth, is that on top of neglecting it for the last decade, when Cameron introduced the uncertainty of Brexit, & then the certainty of leaving, investment dropped off a cliff, & that missing investment will play out in ever weakening growth, & GDP over the next decade.

Agreed! We are rapidly coming to the point where the majority of folk are realising that Brexit, and more so the hard version we ended up with, is a pile of steaming shit and we are literally shooting ourselves in both feet economically whilst the real reason folk voted for it, namely immigration continues to increase and the regaining sovereignty argument is seen as vacuous as Hancock's covid memoirs. The economic hit from Brexit is larger than even 'Project Fear' predicted and is now hitting folk in the pockets, destroying services and degrading our standard of living. It is rapidly being seen as a huge self harm and 2023 will be for me the turning point when folk begin to realise what they have done and look for scapegoats to blame.

They'll just blame an increasingly unpopular Tory party who are being blamed for everything else these days.

[JM2K6]

It is rapidly being seen as a huge self harm and 2023 will be for me the turning point when folk begin to realise what they have done and look for scapegoats to blame.

54% need to look in the mirror, then apologise daily to the rest of us.

51.89%.

A huge act of long term national self harm committed off the back of a tiny majority

[petej]

It is rapidly being seen as a huge self harm and 2023 will be for me the turning point when folk begin to realise what they have done and look for scapegoats to blame.

54% need to look in the mirror, then apologise daily to the rest of us.

51.89%.

A huge act of long term national self harm committed off the back of a tiny majority

A tiny old and dying majority. Even if nobody a had changed their mind it was probably not a majority pre pandemic and certainly won't be now.

We have to lie about it to protect the feelings of the most indulged selfish generation the UK has ever had.

[GogLais]

54% need to look in the mirror, then apologise daily to the rest of us.

51.89%.

A huge act of long term national self harm committed off the back of a tiny majority

the most indulged selfish generation the UK has ever had.

Well thanks for protecting my feelings then, God knows what you’d said about us otherwise.

[Lobby]

It is rapidly being seen as a huge self harm and 2023 will be for me the turning point when folk begin to realise what they have done and look for scapegoats to blame.

54% need to look in the mirror, then apologise daily to the rest of us.

51.89%.

A huge act of long term national self harm committed off the back of a tiny majority

Not forgetting that the 'majority' who voted for Brexit actually constituted just 37% of the eligible electorate.

[GogLais]

54% need to look in the mirror, then apologise daily to the rest of us.

51.89%.

A huge act of long term national self harm committed off the back of a tiny majority

Not forgetting that the 'majority' who voted for Brexit actually constituted just 37% of the eligible electorate.

Well that’s elections for you, turn out or don’t complain. For the record I was a Remainer.

[Sandstorm]

I hope Cameron chokes on a Brussels sprout picked by an immigrant.

[JM2K6]

51.89%.

A huge act of long term national self harm committed off the back of a tiny majority

Not forgetting that the 'majority' who voted for Brexit actually constituted just 37% of the eligible electorate.

Well that’s elections for you, turn out or don’t complain. For the record I was a Remainer.

Those of us who voted are perfectly entitled to complain.

Those who didn't vote are still entitled to complain about how it's been handled.

[GogLais]

Not forgetting that the 'majority' who voted for Brexit actually constituted just 37% of the eligible electorate.

Well that’s elections for you, turn out or don’t complain. For the record I was a Remainer.

Those of us who voted are perfectly entitled to complain.

Those who didn't vote are still entitled to complain about how it's been handled.

About how it’s been handled, yes.

[JM2K6]

Well that’s elections for you, turn out or don’t complain. For the record I was a Remainer.

Those of us who voted are perfectly entitled to complain.

Those who didn't vote are still entitled to complain about how it's been handled.

About how it’s been handled, yes.

Is that not the crux of it? The complaints about Brexit are essentially that none of the claimed benefits of Brexit have been realised and it's just endless self harm instead, from a pack of ludicrous chancers with no real idea of how to make it work and no intention of doing anything for the benefit of the country and its people.

The actual vote is a distant second in importance compared to the implementation.

[fishfoodie]

Remember the UK hasn't implemented border checks on EU imports yet - it keeps delaying the implementation (I wonder why ...) now due in 2023. We also have the EES system being implemented in 2023 - this is the biometric checks plus need for a visa waiver for anyone entering the Schengen areas. It will only get worse, a lot worse!

I'd also love to see what trend over that period is for investment !

The reason the Tories are shitting themselves over growth, is that on top of neglecting it for the last decade, when Cameron introduced the uncertainty of Brexit, & then the certainty of leaving, investment dropped off a cliff, & that missing investment will play out in ever weakening growth, & GDP over the next decade.

Agreed! We are rapidly coming to the point where the majority of folk are realising that Brexit, and more so the hard version we ended up with, is a pile of steaming shit and we are literally shooting ourselves in both feet economically whilst the real reason folk voted for it, namely immigration continues to increase and the regaining sovereignty argument is seen as vacuous as Hancock's covid memoirs. The economic hit from Brexit is larger than even 'Project Fear' predicted and is now hitting folk in the pockets, destroying services and degrading our standard of living. It is rapidly being seen as a huge self harm and 2023 will be for me the turning point when folk begin to realise what they have done and look for scapegoats to blame.

Ask & yea shall receive




https://www.ft.com/content/ae65d82f-db7 ... be6fc12ba1

[lemonhead]

Those of us who voted are perfectly entitled to complain.

Those who didn't vote are still entitled to complain about how it's been handled.

About how it’s been handled, yes.

Is that not the crux of it? The complaints about Brexit are essentially that none of the claimed benefits of Brexit have been realised and it's just endless self harm instead, from a pack of ludicrous chancers with no real idea of how to make it work and no intention of doing anything for the benefit of the country and its people.

The actual vote is a distant second in importance compared to the implementation.e

We knew what we were voting for etc.

Always wonder if David David, Teresa and the Goon show weren't in charge they could've had a more commonsense approach. Article 50 waits a few years while the boring detail seeped out: some quiet negotiations on free trade, options on the table and a second referendum to ratify what sort of Brexit people wanted.

But that would assume competence, honesty and everyone not being at each other's throats. We're all in it together now, with newly designated witches to burn.

[fishfoodie]

About how it’s been handled, yes.

Is that not the crux of it? The complaints about Brexit are essentially that none of the claimed benefits of Brexit have been realised and it's just endless self harm instead, from a pack of ludicrous chancers with no real idea of how to make it work and no intention of doing anything for the benefit of the country and its people.

The actual vote is a distant second in importance compared to the implementation.e

We knew what we were voting for etc.

Always wonder if David David, Teresa and the Goon show weren't in charge they could've had a more commonsense approach. Article 50 waits a few years while the boring detail seeped out: some quiet negotiations on free trade, options on the table and a second referendum to ratify what sort of Brexit people wanted.

But that would assume competence, honesty and everyone not being at each other's throats. We're all in it together now, with newly designated witches to burn.

That's like asking if the inmates hadn't all been insane; would them taking over the asylum have turned out better !

Brexit happened because of the hollowing out of the Political class in Westminster, & the triumph of ambition over talent, & intellect.

Oh; & cunt billionares playing games with the lives of millions.

[lemonhead]

Yeah kinda alluded as much 2nd para, but still so goddamn depressing.

[derriz]

Always wonder if David David, Teresa and the Goon show weren't in charge they could've had a more commonsense approach. Article 50 waits a few years while the boring detail seeped out: some quiet negotiations on free trade, options on the table and a second referendum to ratify what sort of Brexit people wanted.

Can't see it. From an somewhat cynical, realpolitik view, May triggering article 50 was about the dumbest move possible even if you think of the EU-UK negotiation as zero-sum. Without the deadlines set by the article, the UK would have had control of the pace and timing of the process of leaving, which would put them in the driving seat during all negotiations. In a two-player game, the player having the power to decide when the game finishes is at a huge advantage.

Once they invoked A50, the UK had no specialpowers left as the schedule was then set by the article. It must have been a huge relief for the EU negotiation team - who would have had nightmares of the UK doing as Swiss job and dragging out the negotiations for years or longer in order to try to extract concessions. It would be even worse as the UK would continue to be a member during this time and would be in a position to use their power in Brussels to influence the negotiations or be c*nts and gum up the normal workings in Brussels as a tactic. Once article 50 was triggered, all that was gone - control over the pace and inside powers - and they were left f*cked.

[fishfoodie]

Always wonder if David David, Teresa and the Goon show weren't in charge they could've had a more commonsense approach. Article 50 waits a few years while the boring detail seeped out: some quiet negotiations on free trade, options on the table and a second referendum to ratify what sort of Brexit people wanted.

Can't see it. From an somewhat cynical, realpolitik view, May triggering article 50 was about the dumbest move possible even if you think of the EU-UK negotiation as zero-sum. Without the deadlines set by the article, the UK would have had control of the pace and timing of the process of leaving, which would put them in the driving seat during all negotiations. In a two-player game, the player having the power to decide when the game finishes is at a huge advantage.

Once they invoked A50, the UK had no specialpowers left as the schedule was then set by the article. It must have been a huge relief for the EU negotiation team - who would have had nightmares of the UK doing as Swiss job and dragging out the negotiations for years or longer in order to try to extract concessions. It would be even worse as the UK would continue to be a member during this time and would be in a position to use their power in Brussels to influence the negotiations or be c*nts and gum up the normal workings in Brussels as a tactic. Once article 50 was triggered, all that was gone - control over the pace and inside powers - and they were left f*cked.

Without Article 50 there are no negotiations; so there's no gambit !

Any sensible leave process needed two Referendums; one to trigger A50, & then a 2nd to ratify the results of the negotiation of the Post-Leave trade state.

The irony is that the whole leave process was written by a British Civil Servant

[fishfoodie]

Fucking Hell; they really are going out of their way to destroy any remnants of good will with the EU.

Brussels demands answers after UK abruptly rejects residence for thousands of EU citizens


Brussels is demanding clarification from London after tens of thousands of EU citizens living in the UK were abruptly denied the right to remain, leaving them potentially liable to repay welfare benefits.

Brexit commissioner Maroš Šefčovič told ministers from the bloc’s 27 member states that he was taking up their case at a meeting on Monday, diplomats told the Financial Times, after several raised the issue.

...

About 141,000 EU citizens suddenly had their online applications updated to a rejection last month by the UK’s Home Office, even though the refusals in some cases were dated back to June 2021. Those rejected could have to return benefits paid over that period.

The Europe ministers of Poland, Romania, Belgium and Ireland raised the situation with Šefčovič, several diplomats present at the meeting told the FT.

“Welfare payments will now cease and some may have to pay back money. The risk of these people plunging into poverty is high,” said an EU diplomat. “It will be a total surprise to them that they no longer have the right to live in the UK.

“The commission said it is trying to obtain clarification from the British and is carrying out a legal analysis of the situation,” they added.

...

https://www.ft.com/content/13026db9-125 ... 8f6c08a44f

[Biffer]

All of this - Brexit, Scottish Nationalism, voting fucking tory - comes from the same root cause. People refuse to accept the empire is gone and we are just one of a number of high worth medium size countries. It means we don't set any of our policy, whether defense, economic, business, science, health, or something else, as the country that we are. We set policy as if we were still an imperial power. We have no realistic vision of our place in the world, so everything else turns into a shit show.

[GogLais]

All of this - Brexit, Scottish Nationalism, voting fucking tory - comes from the same root cause. People refuse to accept the empire is gone and we are just one of a number of high worth medium size countries. It means we don't set any of our policy, whether defense, economic, business, science, health, or something else, as the country that we are. We set policy as if we were still an imperial power. We have no realistic vision of our place in the world, so everything else turns into a shit show.

Spot on.

[GogLais]

The other thing is that in the last couple of hundred years or so pretty well every major country has had to rebuild itself after either war or revolution. Or it came into being in that period. Sometimes it’s been for the better, sometimes for the worse. I wouldn’t want to live through it but we should have had another revolution sometime after 1688.

[Biffer]

The other thing is that in the last couple of hundred years or so pretty well every major country has had to rebuild itself after either war or revolution. Or it came into being in that period. Sometimes it’s been for the better, sometimes for the worse. I wouldn’t want to live through it but we should have had another revolution sometime after 1688.

You might have missed WWII? Half the country needed rebuilt after that.

And wrt revolution how about 1745? And 1916?

[fishfoodie]

The other thing is that in the last couple of hundred years or so pretty well every major country has had to rebuild itself after either war or revolution. Or it came into being in that period. Sometimes it’s been for the better, sometimes for the worse. I wouldn’t want to live through it but we should have had another revolution sometime after 1688.

You might have missed WWII? Half the country needed rebuilt after that.

And wrt revolution how about 1745? And 1916?

Or 1798 that led to the Act of Union ?

The end of WW II was the best opportunity, & lots of good work was done; the NHS, the massive rebuilding program, & a new relationship, not just with the US, but a realization that what happens in Europe happens in the UK too.

The miss was not reforming the electoral system, when the UK was part of drawing up a Constitution for West Germany, that was to ensure extremists never again got into power in Germany, it never imagined such things were possible at home.

[GogLais]

The other thing is that in the last couple of hundred years or so pretty well every major country has had to rebuild itself after either war or revolution. Or it came into being in that period. Sometimes it’s been for the better, sometimes for the worse. I wouldn’t want to live through it but we should have had another revolution sometime after 1688.

You might have missed WWII? Half the country needed rebuilt after that.

And wrt revolution how about 1745? And 1916?

I didn’t mean rebuilding in a physical sense, I meant rebuilding its institutions and system of government. Many of us would like to for example get rid of the HoL and reform the voting system but that sort of “revolutionary” change seems pretty well impossible.

[GogLais]

The other thing is that in the last couple of hundred years or so pretty well every major country has had to rebuild itself after either war or revolution. Or it came into being in that period. Sometimes it’s been for the better, sometimes for the worse. I wouldn’t want to live through it but we should have had another revolution sometime after 1688.

You might have missed WWII? Half the country needed rebuilt after that.

And wrt revolution how about 1745? And 1916?

Or 1798 that led to the Act of Union ?

Apart from doing away with the Dublin Parliament - which is admittedly is a big apart from - it didn’t fundamentally alter our constitution. Or did it?

[Paddington Bear]

The other thing is that in the last couple of hundred years or so pretty well every major country has had to rebuild itself after either war or revolution. Or it came into being in that period. Sometimes it’s been for the better, sometimes for the worse. I wouldn’t want to live through it but we should have had another revolution sometime after 1688.

You might have missed WWII? Half the country needed rebuilt after that.

And wrt revolution how about 1745? And 1916?

That the Jacobites failed miserably and ended up strengthening the power of the British state and the 1688 settlement would be a pretty radical point of difference when compared to the revolutions Gog is referencing.
Likewise WW2, you have to differentiate *why* things had to be rebuilt. Unlike the other European combatants, the established order in Britain managed to emerge as a victor and unoccupied, obviously this had an effect on what followed and the conclusions people drew as a result.

[fishfoodie]

You might have missed WWII? Half the country needed rebuilt after that.

And wrt revolution how about 1745? And 1916?

Or 1798 that led to the Act of Union ?

Apart from doing away with the Dublin Parliament - which is admittedly is a big apart from - it didn’t fundamentally alter our constitution. Or did it?

It consolidated all power in England, & made the wishes of Scotland, Wales & Ireland irrelevant.

The process that erased the Irish Parliament was corrupt & despicable, even by the standards of the day, & it was a massive exercise in bribery, & disenfranchising voters. That it was possible exposed to all, the limitations of what passed for a Democracy in Westminster.

[Sandstorm]

erased the Irish Parliament

Who says Westminster can’t get anything done?!

[Uncle fester]

Or 1798 that led to the Act of Union ?

Apart from doing away with the Dublin Parliament - which is admittedly is a big apart from - it didn’t fundamentally alter our constitution. Or did it?

It consolidated all power in England, & made the wishes of Scotland, Wales & Ireland irrelevant.

The process that erased the Irish Parliament was corrupt & despicable, even by the standards of the day, & it was a massive exercise in bribery, & disenfranchising voters. That it was possible exposed to all, the limitations of what passed for a Democracy in Westminster.

One way of looking at it but it's not like nascent Irish democracy got stifled. That Irish parliament was rule by what would now be called 1%ers who fücked up so badly that London had no option but to step in.

[Biffer]

Or 1798 that led to the Act of Union ?

Apart from doing away with the Dublin Parliament - which is admittedly is a big apart from - it didn’t fundamentally alter our constitution. Or did it?

It consolidated all power in England, & made the wishes of Scotland, Wales & Ireland irrelevant.

The process that erased the Irish Parliament was corrupt & despicable, even by the standards of the day, & it was a massive exercise in bribery, & disenfranchising voters. That it was possible exposed to all, the limitations of what passed for a Democracy in Westminster.

Not like Scotland hadn't noticed 100 years or so earlier.

Just like the Irish, do something the Scots have already done and claim it as their own.

[fishfoodie]

The other thing is that in the last couple of hundred years or so pretty well every major country has had to rebuild itself after either war or revolution. Or it came into being in that period. Sometimes it’s been for the better, sometimes for the worse. I wouldn’t want to live through it but we should have had another revolution sometime after 1688.

You might have missed WWII? Half the country needed rebuilt after that.

And wrt revolution how about 1745? And 1916?

That the Jacobites failed miserably and ended up strengthening the power of the British state and the 1688 settlement would be a pretty radical point of difference when compared to the revolutions Gog is referencing.
Likewise WW2, you have to differentiate *why* things had to be rebuilt. Unlike the other European combatants, the established order in Britain managed to emerge as a victor and unoccupied, obviously this had an effect on what followed and the conclusions people drew as a result.

I'll stick a pin in this for now. I'm remembering a speech by an actor playing a squaddie in a WW II movie, where he talks about, why they are fighting, & when it's over how they'll have to clear away the rubble, & the slums, & provide jobs for the idle, & homes & spaces fit for the people.

At the time it was a brilliant piece of propaganda, but it spoke to the need, & the opportunity the end of the war would provide.

It wasn't just those who'd fought around the world; it was the women who'd been mobilized for the first time to the workforce, & those in the likes of the mines, who were treated like shit, with the Pit owners coining it during wartime, while the miners were having to work extra hours, for feck all money, & denied the right to strike. There were similar situations in other vital occupations like the shipyards where the workers in Glasgow, who were living in squalor, getting no extra money, getting bombed out of their homes, & the yard owners were in clover.

The; "We're all in it together", line was never more obviously a lie, than during WW II, & by the end of the war, there was a movement for change, & that was why the NHS was a winning proposition, but it needed to be the first step.

In the US the GI Bill enabled a generation to attend College, who would never have had that opportunity, & the US has reaped the rewards for that since.

[Paddington Bear]

You might have missed WWII? Half the country needed rebuilt after that.

And wrt revolution how about 1745? And 1916?

That the Jacobites failed miserably and ended up strengthening the power of the British state and the 1688 settlement would be a pretty radical point of difference when compared to the revolutions Gog is referencing.
Likewise WW2, you have to differentiate *why* things had to be rebuilt. Unlike the other European combatants, the established order in Britain managed to emerge as a victor and unoccupied, obviously this had an effect on what followed and the conclusions people drew as a result.

I'll stick a pin in this for now. I'm remembering a speech by an actor playing a squaddie in a WW II movie, where he talks about, why they are fighting, & when it's over how they'll have to clear away the rubble, & the slums, & provide jobs for the idle, & homes & spaces fit for the people.

At the time it was a brilliant piece of propaganda, but it spoke to the need, & the opportunity the end of the war would provide.

It wasn't just those who'd fought around the world; it was the women who'd been mobilized for the first time to the workforce, & those in the likes of the mines, who were treated like shit, with the Pit owners coining it during wartime, while the miners were having to work extra hours, for feck all money, & denied the right to strike. There were similar situations in other vital occupations like the shipyards where the workers in Glasgow, who were living in squalor, getting no extra money, getting bombed out of their homes, & the yard owners were in clover.

The; "We're all in it together", line was never more obviously a lie, than during WW II, & by the end of the war, there was a movement for change, & that was why the NHS was a winning proposition, but it needed to be the first step.

In the US the GI Bill enabled a generation to attend College, who would never have had that opportunity, & the US has reaped the rewards for that since.

I'm not 100% sure that we're still discussing Gog's original point, however it is a very poor reading of history to suggest that the British upper classes and wealthy didn't pull their weight during both world wars. Orwell wrote famously at the time that the reason the British upper class hadn't been deposed like so many others was that when push came to shove they weren't shirkers or cowards. You should know this from an Irish context - one of the reasons the Irish aristocracy basically disappeared during the War of Independence and Civil War was because so many of them had died in Flanders or at the Somme.

The NHS was part of a major reform of the British state to reflect concerns about pre-war Britain. Hence the term 'post-war consensus'. The challenge with it was that nationalising much of our industry and using Marshall Plan money to build a welfare state and police an Empire was a much poorer use of the money than the investment that went into, for example, West Germany's infrastructure.

To repeat my point, you cannot understand post-war British politics without understanding that Britain's experience of the war was radically different to that of it's neighbours. It had positive and negative effects.

[Paddington Bear]

Apart from doing away with the Dublin Parliament - which is admittedly is a big apart from - it didn’t fundamentally alter our constitution. Or did it?

It consolidated all power in England, & made the wishes of Scotland, Wales & Ireland irrelevant.

The process that erased the Irish Parliament was corrupt & despicable, even by the standards of the day, & it was a massive exercise in bribery, & disenfranchising voters. That it was possible exposed to all, the limitations of what passed for a Democracy in Westminster.

One way of looking at it but it's not like nascent Irish democracy got stifled. That Irish parliament was rule by what would now be called 1%ers who fücked up so badly that London had no option but to step in.

Yes I'm curious as to what people really expected to happen, particularly when you consider the massive war that was ongoing. And again, another failed revolution that brought more power to the State rather than leading to revolution.