NPR

Saint wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:55 am

Blake wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:33 am

TB63 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:12 pm

No lifetime pension. (200k per annum)

No lifetime Secret Service protection.

No running for President.

No $1 million travel budget.

Most importantly, no National Security Updates, which all former Presidents are apparently getting as well.
Sure, he's not really even attending or paying attention to these while in office, but on principle he shouldn't be getting them as he is a known security risk.

Yeah, former Presidents receive at least some National Security Updates, albeit with some of the more sensitive aspects redacted. The theory is that the current president may want to pick up the phone and ask for an opinion with the very select group of people that can be described as his professional peer group.

I can't imagine any future President on either side asking Donnie for his thoughts

Fangle wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:53 am Pro Trumpers claim that he is the only president for a long time who has not put America into any conflict. I have no idea if that is true.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:32 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:29 am

TB63 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:12 pm

No lifetime pension. (200k per annum)

No lifetime Secret Service protection.

No running for President.

No $1 million travel budget.

I'd probably want to see him continue to get Secret Service protection, though he should be impeached

Why ?

He's a billionaire; he can afford his own security; plus, according to him he could shoot a person on 5th Ave, & no one would touch him.

He doesn't need the Secret Service. He isn't the kind of person to cower in a bunker, on a pretend inspection; & then order peaceful protestors tear gassed, so he could hold a bible upside down, & pretend to be tough.

Fangle wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:53 am Pro Trumpers claim that he is the only president for a long time who has not put America into any conflict. I have no idea if that is true.

Fangle wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:02 am

Saint wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:55 am

Blake wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:33 am

Most importantly, no National Security Updates, which all former Presidents are apparently getting as well.
Sure, he's not really even attending or paying attention to these while in office, but on principle he shouldn't be getting them as he is a known security risk.

Yeah, former Presidents receive at least some National Security Updates, albeit with some of the more sensitive aspects redacted. The theory is that the current president may want to pick up the phone and ask for an opinion with the very select group of people that can be described as his professional peer group.

I can't imagine any future President on either side asking Donnie for his thoughts

Nixon was probably the most influential ex- president in that regard. He was very astute on foreign policy and was very free with advice.

GogLais wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:14 am

Fangle wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:02 am

Saint wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:55 am

Yeah, former Presidents receive at least some National Security Updates, albeit with some of the more sensitive aspects redacted. The theory is that the current president may want to pick up the phone and ask for an opinion with the very select group of people that can be described as his professional peer group.

I can't imagine any future President on either side asking Donnie for his thoughts

Nixon was probably the most influential ex- president in that regard. He was very astute on foreign policy and was very free with advice.

I’ve read a book called something like The Ex-Presidents Club, which was an interesting read.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:04 am

Fangle wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:53 am Pro Trumpers claim that he is the only president for a long time who has not put America into any conflict. I have no idea if that is true.

No new conflicts that I can recall, although that's partly achieved by throwing allies like the Kurds completely under the bus.

I did read that he's outdone Obama on drone strikes by some margin, though.

Fangle wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:00 am

Saint wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:55 am

Blake wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:33 am

Most importantly, no National Security Updates, which all former Presidents are apparently getting as well.
Sure, he's not really even attending or paying attention to these while in office, but on principle he shouldn't be getting them as he is a known security risk.

Yeah, former Presidents receive at least some National Security Updates, albeit with some of the more sensitive aspects redacted. The theory is that the current president may want to pick up the phone and ask for an opinion with the very select group of people that can be described as his professional peer group.

I can't imagine any future President on either side asking Donnie for his thoughts

Nixon was probably the most influential ex- president in that regard. He was very astute on foreign policy and was very free with advice.

Fangle wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:53 am Pro Trumpers claim that he is the only president for a long time who has not put America into any conflict. I have no idea if that is true.

Blake wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:37 pm
The best cure for this infected wound is sunlight.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:50 am

Blake wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:07 am

Shanky’s mate wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:21 pm

I imagine you are one of many sharing that sentiment, Fangle.

I have the perception that US citizens maintain an almost innocent faith in their political system under the guise of ‘democracy’. It’s regularly held up as a sort of sacred entity. Politicians regularly invoke the name of democracy in their speeches, etc. I wonder if this latest fiasco from Trump and his enablers will awaken a greater interest or participation in politics within the US? Outside the States, cynicism rules and the crimes of the inept are accepted or ignored.

It's a global problem isn't it. People have become so cynical, disinterested and apathetic when it comes to politics that it has put democracies in peril. The USA is particularly vulnerable because of "American Exceptionalism" and their ardent belief that they are, and will for always be, immune to insurrection. Hopefully the events of last week has dissuaded them from that notion.

There have been many actors that have chipping away at the foundations of their democracy and institutions for decades with impunity without being held to account by their peers and the public. The challenge is going to be to do so now, when it is almost to late, as they already have their army of followers and any calls for accountability will just feed into their persecution complex more.

Can only speak from a UK perspective here, but I am slipping into that. My vote has never counted. Since I've been able to legally vote there have been several general elections and the de facto 2 party system imposed by FPTP plus the disturbing number of safe seats (rotten boroughs...) means my vote has never been represented in the House of Commons. The party I chose to vote for at the last election gained more than 11% of the vote, but received from that just 1.7% of parliamentary seats. As soon as a party has a majority in parliament they can do whatever they want until the next election in 5 years time. We see visible examples of politicians/the establishment getting away with shit we wouldn't and seemingly naked crony capitalism all the time (never more so than during this pandemic with Cummings' excursion and the PPE contracts for Tory mates) with no recourse to do anything about it. Writing to your MP and protesting peacefully doesn't achieve anything, the electoral system is seemingly designed to prevent anyone from outside the establishment gaining any traction. So what do we do?

However much I might disagree with the MAGA lot on what I would sneeringly refer to as their politics (and interpretation of reality), I understand a sense of futility and that the political sphere is beyond change unless you break out the guillotines.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:32 pm Impeachment's about more than just petty revenge on Trump. Quite aside from it being warranted regardless of the timeline, if successfull my understanding is that, crucially, it guarantees that he cannot run again and he is not financially supported by the taxpayer in the way that other ex-presidents are.

He also would not have Secret Service protection according to an article I read, so that's another way of stopping him from utilising even more taxpayer money than that he's basically embezzled thus far via Mar A Lago etc.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:58 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:50 am

Blake wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:07 am

It's a global problem isn't it. People have become so cynical, disinterested and apathetic when it comes to politics that it has put democracies in peril. The USA is particularly vulnerable because of "American Exceptionalism" and their ardent belief that they are, and will for always be, immune to insurrection. Hopefully the events of last week has dissuaded them from that notion.

There have been many actors that have chipping away at the foundations of their democracy and institutions for decades with impunity without being held to account by their peers and the public. The challenge is going to be to do so now, when it is almost to late, as they already have their army of followers and any calls for accountability will just feed into their persecution complex more.

Can only speak from a UK perspective here, but I am slipping into that. My vote has never counted. Since I've been able to legally vote there have been several general elections and the de facto 2 party system imposed by FPTP plus the disturbing number of safe seats (rotten boroughs...) means my vote has never been represented in the House of Commons. The party I chose to vote for at the last election gained more than 11% of the vote, but received from that just 1.7% of parliamentary seats. As soon as a party has a majority in parliament they can do whatever they want until the next election in 5 years time. We see visible examples of politicians/the establishment getting away with shit we wouldn't and seemingly naked crony capitalism all the time (never more so than during this pandemic with Cummings' excursion and the PPE contracts for Tory mates) with no recourse to do anything about it. Writing to your MP and protesting peacefully doesn't achieve anything, the electoral system is seemingly designed to prevent anyone from outside the establishment gaining any traction. So what do we do?

However much I might disagree with the MAGA lot on what I would sneeringly refer to as their politics (and interpretation of reality), I understand a sense of futility and that the political sphere is beyond change unless you break out the guillotines.

Didn't you guys have a referendum on getting rid of FPTP recently enough?

Fangle wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:22 am

GogLais wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:14 am

Fangle wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:02 am

Nixon was probably the most influential ex- president in that regard. He was very astute on foreign policy and was very free with advice.

I’ve read a book called something like The Ex-Presidents Club, which was an interesting read.

I also read it. Written by Nancy Gibbs. It was written before the Obama presidency. Apparently he wasn’t at all interested in what the exes said.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:50 am

Blake wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:07 am

Shanky’s mate wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:21 pm

I imagine you are one of many sharing that sentiment, Fangle.

I have the perception that US citizens maintain an almost innocent faith in their political system under the guise of ‘democracy’. It’s regularly held up as a sort of sacred entity. Politicians regularly invoke the name of democracy in their speeches, etc. I wonder if this latest fiasco from Trump and his enablers will awaken a greater interest or participation in politics within the US? Outside the States, cynicism rules and the crimes of the inept are accepted or ignored.

It's a global problem isn't it. People have become so cynical, disinterested and apathetic when it comes to politics that it has put democracies in peril. The USA is particularly vulnerable because of "American Exceptionalism" and their ardent belief that they are, and will for always be, immune to insurrection. Hopefully the events of last week has dissuaded them from that notion.

There have been many actors that have chipping away at the foundations of their democracy and institutions for decades with impunity without being held to account by their peers and the public. The challenge is going to be to do so now, when it is almost to late, as they already have their army of followers and any calls for accountability will just feed into their persecution complex more.

Can only speak from a UK perspective here, but I am slipping into that. My vote has never counted. Since I've been able to legally vote there have been several general elections and the de facto 2 party system imposed by FPTP plus the disturbing number of safe seats (rotten boroughs...) means my vote has never been represented in the House of Commons. The party I chose to vote for at the last election gained more than 11% of the vote, but received from that just 1.7% of parliamentary seats. As soon as a party has a majority in parliament they can do whatever they want until the next election in 5 years time. We see visible examples of politicians/the establishment getting away with shit we wouldn't and seemingly naked crony capitalism all the time (never more so than during this pandemic with Cummings' excursion and the PPE contracts for Tory mates) with no recourse to do anything about it. Writing to your MP and protesting peacefully doesn't achieve anything, the electoral system is seemingly designed to prevent anyone from outside the establishment gaining any traction. So what do we do?

However much I might disagree with the MAGA lot on what I would sneeringly refer to as their politics (and interpretation of reality), I understand a sense of futility and that the political sphere is beyond change unless you break out the guillotines.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:50 am Can only speak from a UK perspective here, but I am slipping into that. My vote has never counted. Since I've been able to legally vote there have been several general elections and the de facto 2 party system imposed by FPTP plus the disturbing number of safe seats (rotten boroughs...) means my vote has never been represented in the House of Commons. The party I chose to vote for at the last election gained more than 11% of the vote, but received from that just 1.7% of parliamentary seats. As soon as a party has a majority in parliament they can do whatever they want until the next election in 5 years time. We see visible examples of politicians/the establishment getting away with shit we wouldn't and seemingly naked crony capitalism all the time (never more so than during this pandemic with Cummings' excursion and the PPE contracts for Tory mates) with no recourse to do anything about it. Writing to your MP and protesting peacefully doesn't achieve anything, the electoral system is seemingly designed to prevent anyone from outside the establishment gaining any traction. So what do we do?

However much I might disagree with the MAGA lot on what I would sneeringly refer to as their politics (and interpretation of reality), I understand a sense of futility and that the political sphere is beyond change unless you break out the guillotines.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:47 pm Fox are now describing the Democrats looking to impeach the Orange turd as a, 'vendetta'; & appealing to them to be 'gracious', in victory.

It's like they missed the entirety of the last 4 years; tearing down Obamacare, destroying institutions; hiring & firing of people, gutting the EPA, the FBI, the CIA; putting children in cages; their hypocrisy of them blocking Garland, & then forcing thru a pick during the election campaign.

Suddenly enforcing the rule of law & holding Politicians to the oaths of office the swore is a vendetta.

The GOP spend two years investigating the death of 4 US citizens in Bengazi; but Fox would prefer if the Democrats don't spend 5 minutes looking into the deaths of 5 people, & an attempted coup

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:28 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:47 pm Fox are now describing the Democrats looking to impeach the Orange turd as a, 'vendetta'; & appealing to them to be 'gracious', in victory.

It's like they missed the entirety of the last 4 years; tearing down Obamacare, destroying institutions; hiring & firing of people, gutting the EPA, the FBI, the CIA; putting children in cages; their hypocrisy of them blocking Garland, & then forcing thru a pick during the election campaign.

Suddenly enforcing the rule of law & holding Politicians to the oaths of office the swore is a vendetta.

The GOP spend two years investigating the death of 4 US citizens in Bengazi; but Fox would prefer if the Democrats don't spend 5 minutes looking into the deaths of 5 people, & an attempted coup

You do wonder what the aim or Murdoch is in all this. He's probably (if not surely) thinking there's a serious review of the media companies coming, especially looking at how social media is legislated. And still he's letting that crap on the air

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:10 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:58 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:50 am


Can only speak from a UK perspective here, but I am slipping into that. My vote has never counted. Since I've been able to legally vote there have been several general elections and the de facto 2 party system imposed by FPTP plus the disturbing number of safe seats (rotten boroughs...) means my vote has never been represented in the House of Commons. The party I chose to vote for at the last election gained more than 11% of the vote, but received from that just 1.7% of parliamentary seats. As soon as a party has a majority in parliament they can do whatever they want until the next election in 5 years time. We see visible examples of politicians/the establishment getting away with shit we wouldn't and seemingly naked crony capitalism all the time (never more so than during this pandemic with Cummings' excursion and the PPE contracts for Tory mates) with no recourse to do anything about it. Writing to your MP and protesting peacefully doesn't achieve anything, the electoral system is seemingly designed to prevent anyone from outside the establishment gaining any traction. So what do we do?

However much I might disagree with the MAGA lot on what I would sneeringly refer to as their politics (and interpretation of reality), I understand a sense of futility and that the political sphere is beyond change unless you break out the guillotines.

Didn't you guys have a referendum on getting rid of FPTP recently enough?

2011 AV referendum, yes. Fraught with issue, though, as in a de facto two party system neither the main politicians nor their supporters are likely to advocate for something that reduces their parliamentary representation in favour of something more equitable. Labour had only just been turfed out after 13 years of power and the Tories had just won, so as far as they were concerned FPTP was working very nicely thank you very much.

Short sighted of them and completely unprincipled. I genuinely believe that if UKIPs vote share had actually manifested in proportionate parliamentary representation early doors, then they wouldn't have become such a cancerous influence on the Tory party and we'd have avoided the Brexit referendum altogether. Greens, Lib Dems and UKIP have all been underserved by FPTP and the longer it goes on unchecked the more the 2 party system reinforces itself.

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:51 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:28 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:47 pm Fox are now describing the Democrats looking to impeach the Orange turd as a, 'vendetta'; & appealing to them to be 'gracious', in victory.

It's like they missed the entirety of the last 4 years; tearing down Obamacare, destroying institutions; hiring & firing of people, gutting the EPA, the FBI, the CIA; putting children in cages; their hypocrisy of them blocking Garland, & then forcing thru a pick during the election campaign.

Suddenly enforcing the rule of law & holding Politicians to the oaths of office the swore is a vendetta.

The GOP spend two years investigating the death of 4 US citizens in Bengazi; but Fox would prefer if the Democrats don't spend 5 minutes looking into the deaths of 5 people, & an attempted coup

You do wonder what the aim or Murdoch is in all this. He's probably (if not surely) thinking there's a serious review of the media companies coming, especially looking at how social media is legislated. And still he's letting that crap on the air

Murdoch thinks he's untouchable.

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:57 pm
As a point that's not relevant to anything here, I once got an old school tory and a Scottish socialist to both respond agreeing with me on a topic - the continued funding of Scottish Opera. The tory wanted them funded because opera / high culture etc, and the SSP guy wanted the 90+ unionised musicians jobs protected.

obelixtim wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:31 am Kim knocked off number 1 spot.

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:51 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:28 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:47 pm Fox are now describing the Democrats looking to impeach the Orange turd as a, 'vendetta'; & appealing to them to be 'gracious', in victory.

It's like they missed the entirety of the last 4 years; tearing down Obamacare, destroying institutions; hiring & firing of people, gutting the EPA, the FBI, the CIA; putting children in cages; their hypocrisy of them blocking Garland, & then forcing thru a pick during the election campaign.

Suddenly enforcing the rule of law & holding Politicians to the oaths of office the swore is a vendetta.

The GOP spend two years investigating the death of 4 US citizens in Bengazi; but Fox would prefer if the Democrats don't spend 5 minutes looking into the deaths of 5 people, & an attempted coup

You do wonder what the aim or Murdoch is in all this. He's probably (if not surely) thinking there's a serious review of the media companies coming, especially looking at how social media is legislated. And still he's letting that crap on the air

Murdoch thinks he's untouchable.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:04 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:51 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:28 pm

You do wonder what the aim or Murdoch is in all this. He's probably (if not surely) thinking there's a serious review of the media companies coming, especially looking at how social media is legislated. And still he's letting that crap on the air

Murdoch thinks he's untouchable.

Maybe, but only for as long as he's relevant. And we've seen before if change comes it can be swift and brutal which makes me think he'd want to be on the inside of directing any change. Or maybe they know that introducing even just a little sanity and decency would hit their profits hard and he's betting he'll come out on top as he has before.

sturginho wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:59 pm Nothing to see here

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:12 pm

sturginho wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:59 pm Nothing to see here

so a coup attempt is now a, "misstep"

what was 9/11 ? ..... littering

TB63 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:13 pm Dominion have already started the ball rolling, issuing writs to Fox, OANN, Rudy, Lin Wood and Sidney Powell to name a few..

mat the expat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:27 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:20 pm Let down by his training? What was he meant to do there other than start emptying a magazine into the crowd?

I thought he did fine delaying them for about as long as he could whilst giving ground.

He should never have been in a position of being on his own - whoever was directing the "defence" was useless.

In the footage I saw, he could have easily laid into the crowd with the asp and given them pause. It's the very basic application of a baton in defence - likely he wasn't trained properly in it's use.

Don't forget, this building was designed when government buildings were still being attacked - it is full of natural choke-points for defence.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:22 pm Yeah, saw that yesterday. He did a superb job

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:25 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:22 pm Yeah, saw that yesterday. He did a superb job

Not enough karate chops and ninja jumps for my liking

Jockaline wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:15 pm

mat the expat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:27 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:20 pm Let down by his training? What was he meant to do there other than start emptying a magazine into the crowd?

I thought he did fine delaying them for about as long as he could whilst giving ground.

He should never have been in a position of being on his own - whoever was directing the "defence" was useless.

In the footage I saw, he could have easily laid into the crowd with the asp and given them pause. It's the very basic application of a baton in defence - likely he wasn't trained properly in it's use.

Don't forget, this building was designed when government buildings were still being attacked - it is full of natural choke-points for defence.

One of the heros of the day:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55623752
https://twitter.com/search?q=Goodman&src=typed_query

Jacob Chansley, AKA Jake Angeli, Arizona man makes first court appearance in for charges related to storming the U.S. Capitol. His mom says he hasn’t eaten since Friday because the detention facility won’t feed him all organic food.