Kicking off in Israel

[Calculon]

Well, what's the scale of outrage we're supposed to express?

How many Palestinian kids' lives equals one Israeli kid's life?

This was an attack by Hezbollah, not Hamas, from Lebanon, a country who Israel does not occupy. It was big news at the time partly, or mostly because of speculation of what form the Israeli retaliation would take. I have no expectations regarding how much outrage, or for whom you should feel it

In fairness we don't often talk much about Israel's attacks on Lebanon either.

I know, it's Wikipedia, but:

As of 5 July 2024, Israel reports having killed approximately 366 Hezbollah operatives with over 100 Lebanese civilians confirmed killed. According to the UN, over 90,000 people in Lebanon have been forced to flee their homes, while in Israel, 60,000 civilians have evacuated.[20] Israel and Hezbollah have maintained their attacks at a level that causes significant harm without escalating into a full-scale war.[21] From 7 October 2023 to 21 June 2024, Israel attacked Lebanon 6,124 times. Hezbollah and other Lebanese forces attacked Israel 1,258 times.[22]

Pretty much all of those passed without comment here, because they were (to us) unremarkable.

this attack was front page news, i was surprised it was not commented on here

[JM2K6]

This was an attack by Hezbollah, not Hamas, from Lebanon, a country who Israel does not occupy. It was big news at the time partly, or mostly because of speculation of what form the Israeli retaliation would take. I have no expectations regarding how much outrage, or for whom you should feel it

In fairness we don't often talk much about Israel's attacks on Lebanon either.

I know, it's Wikipedia, but:

As of 5 July 2024, Israel reports having killed approximately 366 Hezbollah operatives with over 100 Lebanese civilians confirmed killed. According to the UN, over 90,000 people in Lebanon have been forced to flee their homes, while in Israel, 60,000 civilians have evacuated.[20] Israel and Hezbollah have maintained their attacks at a level that causes significant harm without escalating into a full-scale war.[21] From 7 October 2023 to 21 June 2024, Israel attacked Lebanon 6,124 times. Hezbollah and other Lebanese forces attacked Israel 1,258 times.[22]

Pretty much all of those passed without comment here, because they were (to us) unremarkable.

this attack was front page news, i was surprised it was not commented on here

I can assure you it wasn't front page news here

[Calculon]

In fairness we don't often talk much about Israel's attacks on Lebanon either.

I know, it's Wikipedia, but:



Pretty much all of those passed without comment here, because they were (to us) unremarkable.

this attack was front page news, i was surprised it was not commented on here

I can assure you it wasn't front page news here

I don't know where here is, but it was front page on https://www.bbc.co.uk/news for several days

[JM2K6]

this attack was front page news, i was surprised it was not commented on here

I can assure you it wasn't front page news here

I don't know where here is, but it was front page on https://www.bbc.co.uk/news for several days

That seems extremely unlikely tbh, given we had the election in July and how rare it is for any single international event to dominate the headlines for several days.

Front page of the BBC is usually breaking news. Front page of the papers is something else.

[Calculon]

I can assure you it wasn't front page news here

I don't know where here is, but it was front page on https://www.bbc.co.uk/news for several days

That seems extremely unlikely tbh, given we had the election in July and how rare it is for any single international event to dominate the headlines for several days.

Front page of the BBC is usually breaking news. Front page of the papers is something else.

that is the page where i became aware of the story and for at lest one day after the incident it was still on that page. If it is only me, raggs and blackmac that knew about it then i guess it was not such a big story as i thought.

[Slick]

It was "front page news" for at a couple of days.

[Calculon]

It was "front page news" for at a couple of days.

obviously i wasnt the only one who thought it was a bigger story than it apparenly was, here is the wiki entry if you're are actually interrested in what happened rather than just making snide remarks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majdal_Shams_attack

[Slick]

It was "front page news" for at a couple of days.

obviously i wasnt the only one who thought it was a bigger story than it apparenly was, here is the wiki entry if you're are actually interrested in what happened rather than just making snide remarks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majdal_Shams_attack

I'm agreeing with you, mate.

[Calculon]

It was "front page news" for at a couple of days.

obviously i wasnt the only one who thought it was a bigger story than it apparenly was, here is the wiki entry if you're are actually interrested in what happened rather than just making snide remarks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majdal_Shams_attack

I'm agreeing with you, mate.

ah, ok, apologies, i've had a shitty day

[JM2K6]

https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/uk-fr ... july-2024/ these are the front pages from the day after, as an example.

Compare and contrast with the bombing campaign being plastered all over the front pages of the papers in the last couple of days (see here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cpml2v678pxt for example)

Was it news? Yes. Was it anything like this one? Absolutely not. This has been front page news for a few days. Absolutely no way could you say July 27th was at all the same.

[Uncle fester]

[Slick]

https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/uk-fr ... july-2024/ these are the front pages from the day after, as an example.

Compare and contrast with the bombing campaign being plastered all over the front pages of the papers in the last couple of days (see here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cpml2v678pxt for example)

Was it news? Yes. Was it anything like this one? Absolutely not. This has been front page news for a few days. Absolutely no way could you say July 27th was at all the same.

"Yeah, fair enough, it was covered a bit more than I first suggested" would have done.

[Uncle fester]

Heating up again so probably not good news for US Democrats and that might be part of the thinking for the main participants.

[JM2K6]

https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/uk-fr ... july-2024/ these are the front pages from the day after, as an example.

Compare and contrast with the bombing campaign being plastered all over the front pages of the papers in the last couple of days (see here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cpml2v678pxt for example)

Was it news? Yes. Was it anything like this one? Absolutely not. This has been front page news for a few days. Absolutely no way could you say July 27th was at all the same.

"Yeah, fair enough, it was covered a bit more than I first suggested" would have done.

But it wasn't, which is what those links prove? The claim was it was front page news for several days. It barely warranted a mention. The bombings on the other hand have been met with front page headlines. It's asinine to pretend the coverage is equivalent in any way, let alone pretend July 27th was hot news for several days

[I like neeps]

Imagine holding an ally who we wholeheartedly support to a higher standard than a terrorist group.

Israel repeatedly breaking international law is a problem because the west have created it and continue to (say) they uphold the system.

[geordie_6]

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/85DhrdQwsk

This is horrendous.

[C69]

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/85DhrdQwsk

This is horrendous.

Not sure if they were alive or dead.
The stories of corpse desecration and abuse of physical and sexual nature are horrific

[Guy Smiley]

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/85DhrdQwsk

This is horrendous.

Not sure if they were alive or dead.
The stories of corpse desecration and abuse of physical and sexual nature are horrific

The story, from the little I've read, centres on the throwing of bodies from a rooftop.

In itself, not catastrophic. The issue is that this illustrates the callous disregard for Palestinians that we see from Israel. The deliberate and years long strategy of dehumanising Palestinians makes widespread death of civilians in pursuit of military targets palatable and the continued taking of land justifiable.

[C69]

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/85DhrdQwsk

This is horrendous.

Not sure if they were alive or dead.
The stories of corpse desecration and abuse of physical and sexual nature are horrific

The story, from the little I've read, centres on the throwing of bodies from a rooftop.

In itself, not catastrophic. The issue is that this illustrates the callous disregard for Palestinians that we see from Israel. The deliberate and years long strategy of dehumanising Palestinians makes widespread death of civilians in pursuit of military targets palatable and the continued taking of land justifiable.

.
Some may say the Germa term Untermensch

[fishfoodie]

Not sure if they were alive or dead.
The stories of corpse desecration and abuse of physical and sexual nature are horrific

The story, from the little I've read, centres on the throwing of bodies from a rooftop.

In itself, not catastrophic. The issue is that this illustrates the callous disregard for Palestinians that we see from Israel. The deliberate and years long strategy of dehumanising Palestinians makes widespread death of civilians in pursuit of military targets palatable and the continued taking of land justifiable.

.
Some may say the Germa term Untermensch

I always flip back to a very awkward lunch, where we'd organized to meet with up with a Christian Arab girl that my colleague wanted to catch up with. As we were having lunch, a Jewish colleague walked by & saw us & we as usual asked her to have a seat as we chatted.

As part of the introductions my colleague mentioned that this young woman used to babysit his kids when he was living in Israel ....
I'll always remember her reaction; it was as if he'd just announced he left his kids with wolves, or Fred West !!!!

[Guy Smiley]

Here's BBC coverage of the story...

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn8jg0x5xg8o


this was in the Left Bank. We all know the reality but this is Palestinian land, occupied by Israel in defiance of UN directives. Those here who support Israel query why some of us... apparently.... support the other side. It's this continuing injustice that irks me personally, the self portrayal of Israel as the victim while actually being an oppressor and occupier.

There's also the question of Hamas... I saw a clip from an Australian tv panel where a guest suggested that the vacuum occupying the space where support for Palestinians should sit is why Hamas exists. They are in a desperate situation and have been for years... so it's natural that someone should rise up and fight. The logical extension there is that to remove Hamas or the threat of a successor, you need somebody to step up and fight for the rights of Palestinians to live as free citizens on their own land... their basic human right.

I reckon a way through this would be a neutral occupying force that pushed the Israelis out, into their own land. Simplistic, for sure. Achievable? Not while widespread denial around the decades long actions of Israel is allowed to continue.

[Uncle fester]

Here's BBC coverage of the story...

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn8jg0x5xg8o


this was in the Left Bank. We all know the reality but this is Palestinian land, occupied by Israel in defiance of UN directives. Those here who support Israel query why some of us... apparently.... support the other side. It's this continuing injustice that irks me personally, the self portrayal of Israel as the victim while actually being an oppressor and occupier.

There's also the question of Hamas... I saw a clip from an Australian tv panel where a guest suggested that the vacuum occupying the space where support for Palestinians should sit is why Hamas exists. They are in a desperate situation and have been for years... so it's natural that someone should rise up and fight. The logical extension there is that to remove Hamas or the threat of a successor, you need somebody to step up and fight for the rights of Palestinians to live as free citizens on their own land... their basic human right.

I reckon a way through this would be a neutral occupying force that pushed the Israelis out, into their own land. Simplistic, for sure. Achievable? Not while widespread denial around the decades long actions of Israel is allowed to continue.

Well yes the rise of Hamas coincides with the destruction of Arafat and his organisation. I put the blame for this fully at the feet of Sharon who instead of dealing with a flawed adversary, caused the rise of an even more intractable enemy.

There's a few ways this all ends:
1. The extermination of Palestinians, Australian-Aboriginal conflict style.
2. A deal where Israel makes actual concessions that will result in Israel no longer being a fully Jewish state, see Northern Ireland and/or South Africa.
3. They keep going as they are and run out of Western support similar to the way south Africa did. They'll be all for a deal when that happens but the Palestinians are going to be out for blood.

[Calculon]

https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/uk-fr ... july-2024/ these are the front pages from the day after, as an example.

Compare and contrast with the bombing campaign being plastered all over the front pages of the papers in the last couple of days (see here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cpml2v678pxt for example)

Was it news? Yes. Was it anything like this one? Absolutely not. This has been front page news for a few days. Absolutely no way could you say July 27th was at all the same.

"Yeah, fair enough, it was covered a bit more than I first suggested" would have done.

But it wasn't, which is what those links prove? The claim was it was front page news for several days. It barely warranted a mention. The bombings on the other hand have been met with front page headlines. It's asinine to pretend the coverage is equivalent in any way, let alone pretend July 27th was hot news for several days

nice strawman, I never pretended it is equivalent. and it certainly was a bigger news story than your wiki linked stories, and yes, it was front page on the bbc website for several days, and in papers such as the sunday times and new york times and no doubt many others

[JM2K6]

"Yeah, fair enough, it was covered a bit more than I first suggested" would have done.

But it wasn't, which is what those links prove? The claim was it was front page news for several days. It barely warranted a mention. The bombings on the other hand have been met with front page headlines. It's asinine to pretend the coverage is equivalent in any way, let alone pretend July 27th was hot news for several days

nice strawman, I never pretended it is equivalent. and it certainly was a bigger news story than your wiki linked stories, and yes, it was front page on the bbc website for several days, and in papers such as the sunday times and new york times and no doubt many others

A side bar in the Sunday times and nothing on the others. Right. The new York times isn't a UK paper the last time I checked.

The whole point of this is that it clearly wasn't front page news, because no one except the times saw fit to even refer to it on the front page, and even the times just did a side bar. You can tell what front page news actually is - just check the headlines this week over the bombing campaign.

You made a claim not backed up by the facts. It happens.

[Calculon]

But it wasn't, which is what those links prove? The claim was it was front page news for several days. It barely warranted a mention. The bombings on the other hand have been met with front page headlines. It's asinine to pretend the coverage is equivalent in any way, let alone pretend July 27th was hot news for several days

nice strawman, I never pretended it is equivalent. and it certainly was a bigger news story than your wiki linked stories, and yes, it was front page on the bbc website for several days, and in papers such as the sunday times and new york times and no doubt many others

A side bar in the Sunday times and nothing on the others. Right. The new York times isn't a UK paper the last time I checked.

The whole point of this is that it clearly wasn't front page news, because no one except the times saw fit to even refer to it on the front page, and even the times just did a side bar. You can tell what front page news actually is - just check the headlines this week over the bombing campaign.

You made a claim not backed up by the facts. It happens.

any others? you showed a small selection of england papers, mostly tabloids, inclding the sunday people. There are also non english people on this forum, and even some of the english people, maybe not you, read non uk media so not sure why you want to limit this to just the UK. ANyway, i retract my claim it was front page news despite it being on the front page of the print editions of the sunday times, new york times, and also the bbc website. it was still a big story for me and like Raggs i was surptised no one on here mentoined it at the time

[C69]

nice strawman, I never pretended it is equivalent. and it certainly was a bigger news story than your wiki linked stories, and yes, it was front page on the bbc website for several days, and in papers such as the sunday times and new york times and no doubt many others

A side bar in the Sunday times and nothing on the others. Right. The new York times isn't a UK paper the last time I checked.

The whole point of this is that it clearly wasn't front page news, because no one except the times saw fit to even refer to it on the front page, and even the times just did a side bar. You can tell what front page news actually is - just check the headlines this week over the bombing campaign.

You made a claim not backed up by the facts. It happens.

any others? you showed a small selection of england papers, mostly tabloids, inclding the sunday people. There are also non english people on this forum, and even some of the english people, maybe not you, read non uk media so not sure why you want to limit this to just the UK. ANyway, i retract my claim it was front page news despite it being on the front page of the print editions of the sunday times, new york times, and also the bbc website. it was still a big story for me and like Raggs i was surptised no one on here mentoined it at the time

Did you or Raggs post about it?
Tbh if for instance I posted about civilians killed by Israeli rockets then I would be on here 24/7.
Btw I didn't even see the story you are outraged about.
What were your posts on the matter like?

[Wyndham Upalot]

Merely an observation, it seems quite sad that we're lowering ourselves into an equivalence debate. The endless acts of barbarity from both sides is soul destroying. I did read about the rocket attack on the kids playing football on several news sites (and that's coming from a Grauniad subscriber ...), it's unfortunately been normalised into just another incident that adds to the toll of lives continuing to be lost in this conflict. I have no answers btw.

[JM2K6]

nice strawman, I never pretended it is equivalent. and it certainly was a bigger news story than your wiki linked stories, and yes, it was front page on the bbc website for several days, and in papers such as the sunday times and new york times and no doubt many others

A side bar in the Sunday times and nothing on the others. Right. The new York times isn't a UK paper the last time I checked.

The whole point of this is that it clearly wasn't front page news, because no one except the times saw fit to even refer to it on the front page, and even the times just did a side bar. You can tell what front page news actually is - just check the headlines this week over the bombing campaign.

You made a claim not backed up by the facts. It happens.

any others? you showed a small selection of england papers, mostly tabloids, inclding the sunday people. There are also non english people on this forum, and even some of the english people, maybe not you, read non uk media so not sure why you want to limit this to just the UK. ANyway, i retract my claim it was front page news despite it being on the front page of the print editions of the sunday times, new york times, and also the bbc website. it was still a big story for me and like Raggs i was surptised no one on here mentoined it at the time

The UK media is mostly tabloids.

As you can see from the comparison, the reason why no one mentioned on here is because it wasn't big news and was just another incident in a long line of extremely similar ones. In the UK it merited a front page sidebar mention in one paper. The bombing during the week has been plastered all over the headlines and represents something completely unexpected with dramatic consequences. Of course it's going to spark discussion.

[JM2K6]

Merely an observation, it seems quite sad that we're lowering ourselves into an equivalence debate. The endless acts of barbarity from both sides is soul destroying. I did read about the rocket attack on the kids playing football on several news sites (and that's coming from a Grauniad subscriber ...), it's unfortunately been normalised into just another incident that adds to the toll of lives continuing to be lost in this conflict. I have no answers btw.

Oh yeah, it was definitely reported on. Just not Big News (tm) like the supply chain IED attack is

[Uncle fester]

Merely an observation, it seems quite sad that we're lowering ourselves into an equivalence debate. The endless acts of barbarity from both sides is soul destroying. I did read about the rocket attack on the kids playing football on several news sites (and that's coming from a Grauniad subscriber ...), it's unfortunately been normalised into just another incident that adds to the toll of lives continuing to be lost in this conflict. I have no answers btw.

Anybody demanding "both sides" condemnation all the time is not a serious person. It's a distraction tactic, nothing else.

[epwc]

Dunno what to say , which is why I stopped posting about specific incidents yonks ago. All I know is that no other nation on earth could get away with the shit they are.

[dpedin]

Dunno what to say , which is why I stopped posting about specific incidents yonks ago. All I know is that no other nation on earth could get away with the shit they are.

I'm with you epwc - I am just in despair about how humans can inflict such misery, harm and death on their fellow humans. There are no 'goodies' here - they have all gone over to the dark side and are revelling in the death and destruction they can wreak on innocent people. I have no answers either but it is clear that all of the parties involved are engaged in illegal and inhuman warfare and genocide that shows no sign or ending or being won by anyone. The fanatics on both sides see human lives as just collateral damage in their quest to eliminate the other ... all they are doing is building up greater resentment and motivation within their enemy ranks for future wars. I honestly despair at what might happen next!

[epwc]

Only one side is involved in genocidal acts

[Slick]

Dunno what to say , which is why I stopped posting about specific incidents yonks ago. All I know is that no other nation on earth could get away with the shit they are.

We did a pretty good job of getting away with shit in Iraq to be fair.

[epwc]

We did a pretty good job of getting away with shit in Iraq to be fair.

I guess, Afghanistan too

[Rhubarb & Custard]

China, Russia, India and Pakistan, any number of factions in Africa, Somalia, Sudan and DRC perhaps the current standouts, Myanmar, North Korea... no shortage of regimes acting like arseholes and not really being impacted for it

[Uncle fester]

Dunno what to say , which is why I stopped posting about specific incidents yonks ago. All I know is that no other nation on earth could get away with the shit they are.

We did a pretty good job of getting away with shit in Iraq to be fair.

Honestly there was more scrutiny and expectation that basic human rights were to be respected. Those prison guards, for example.

[Slick]

Dunno what to say , which is why I stopped posting about specific incidents yonks ago. All I know is that no other nation on earth could get away with the shit they are.

We did a pretty good job of getting away with shit in Iraq to be fair.

Honestly there was more scrutiny and expectation that basic human rights were to be respected. Those prison guards, for example.

We killed about 1/4 million civilians

[Uncle fester]

Yeah fück it. Don't know what point I had in my head there. You're quite right.

I see they've got a major Hezbollah head honcho today. Great news. Shame the hundreds of civilians killed will ensure recruitment to their ranks stays strong.

[epwc]

China, Russia, India and Pakistan, any number of factions in Africa, Somalia, Sudan and DRC perhaps the current standouts, Myanmar, North Korea... no shortage of regimes acting like arseholes and not really being impacted for it

None of those is seen by anyone except complete loons as morally defensible. Plenty of people jump to Israels defence