Stop voting for fucking Tories

[I like neeps]

That person might be over-egging it a bit but I do feel sorry for young people in the UK. They're being fucked over. Certainly more sympathy for them than a GP working 3 days a week on a good salary.

What bits do you think they are over egging out of interest?

"nothing to offer young person," "total and utter ponzi scheme" and I guess if he graduated around 2015 his debt is a fair bit higher than the average for England uni graduate. Don't get me wrong, I think the young are being royally fucked by the older generation and if I was a young person in the UK (without wealthy parents) I would definitely be looking to leave.

SLC is kind of like a Ponzi in that it needs consistently fresh money coming in at the bottom for the illusion of stability as there's not a snowballs chance in hell the loans are ever being paid off.

[Paddington Bear]

That person might be over-egging it a bit but I do feel sorry for young people in the UK. They're being fucked over. Certainly more sympathy for them than a GP working 3 days a week on a good salary.

What bits do you think they are over egging out of interest?

"nothing to offer young person," "total and utter ponzi scheme" and I guess if he graduated around 2015 his debt is a fair bit higher than the average for England uni graduate. Don't get me wrong, I think the young are being royally fucked by the older generation and if I was a young person in the UK (without wealthy parents) I would definitely be looking to leave.

I graduated in 2015 and so have a fair amount of student debt as the first cohort on the new system. I don't think of it as a normal debt as of course they'll never take the shirt off my back for it, but it is a tax and it gets pretty significant once you stop earning £20ks/early 30s.
Of course it was my choice to go to uni but there wasn't any realistic path into professional jobs without doing so (there are more school leaver schemes now than then and they are a bit more viable). Worth mentioning that my (state) school actively discouraged non-uni options to the extent of putting extreme pressure and levels of humiliating the kids considering it.

Tax rises are a bit of a final straw for me - my partner is from Jersey and I've never been sold on moving there but it becomes ever more tempting every day.

[Tichtheid]

Re student loans, they are calculated on your income, but it's the same if you have one child or dozens.

I just did a quick calculation based on an income of £60k, I used that because it's roughly twice the national average, with a pension contribution of 5% that amounts to a take home of £41.6K, I'm just going to very quickly take average bills as follows - running a car, £2k, Mortgage, £12k, bills £3k. I've looked up averages and gone for the cheaper end.
These leave £24.6k before clothing, food, broadband, whatever else.

If you have one child as a student they will get their fees paid plus a loan of £4 586 according to the SF calculator. Whatever number of children you have in tertiary education they will get the same.

I have current experience of student rents via my children, it ranges between 6 and 8 thousand pounds per year depending on where you are, six thousand is very low now. Halls cost around £7.5k all in, flats cost a bit less in rent but you have to add in the bills.

If you have more than one at uni at the same time you're going to have to find £3K each per year for rent alone and let's say around £3k for bare bones living expenses, that's three hundred a month for everything, food, bills, clothes, any materials they will require for their course and also for recreation.
So two kids at uni, means paying out six thousand for each, ie £12k off our income of £24.6, from an income of £60k we are left with a bit over £12k per year for ourselves for food, clothing, broadband, recreation and any once-in-a-blue-moon costs like the fridge breaking or large bills for the car.

Incidentally, doing the calculation again for a household income of £30k, the national average, your children will get fees paid plus a loan of £8.5k, which covers the rent and leaves £1.5k for the year. You'd be expected to make up £4.5k per child per year based on the sums above.


edit, just for the halibut I did the calculations again using £90k and £120k income, it's almost the same loan amount for your child as if you were on £60k, which seems odd to say the least.

also the same for half a million

[Dogbert]

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

[fishfoodie]

“It is a rule . . . in all the world that interest is to be paid on borrowed money. May I say something about interest? Interest never sleeps nor sickens nor dies; it never goes to the hospital; it works on Sundays and holidays; it never takes a vacation; it never visits nor travels . . . it has no love, no sympathy; it is as hard and soulless as a granite cliff. Once in debt, interest is your companion every minute of the day and night; you cannot shun it or slip away from it; you cannot dismiss it; it yields neither to entreaties, demands nor orders; and whenever you get in its way or cross its course or fail to meet its demands, it crushes you.”

― J. Reuben Clark Jr.

[tc27]

I think Starmer has Johnson nicely summed up:

It’s easy to comfort yourself that your opponents are bad people. But I don’t think Boris Johnson is a bad man. I think he is a trivial man. I think he’s a showman, he's a showman with nothing left to show. I think he’s a trickster who has performed his one trick.

[dpedin]

Starmer's wife is a bit of a looker! She beats Carrie hands down for me.

[Sandstorm]

Starmer's wife is a bit of a looker! She beats Carrie hands down for me.

I certainly would.

[sturginho]

Starmer's wife is a bit of a looker! She beats Carrie hands down for me.

Rules!

[Rhubarb & Custard]

What bits do you think they are over egging out of interest?

"nothing to offer young person," "total and utter ponzi scheme" and I guess if he graduated around 2015 his debt is a fair bit higher than the average for England uni graduate. Don't get me wrong, I think the young are being royally fucked by the older generation and if I was a young person in the UK (without wealthy parents) I would definitely be looking to leave.

SLC is kind of like a Ponzi in that it needs consistently fresh money coming in at the bottom for the illusion of stability as there's not a snowballs chance in hell the loans are ever being paid off.

I don't know it's much of a Ponzi scheme, ring fencing debt being different to sourcing new money to pay out to older money to keep a pyramid running as long as possible. At least it seems to me the key thing for the government is how the money is booked into their accounts, were it debt plain and simple they'd be breaking all sorts of rules as a consequence, but because notionally it's more akin to a loan they're left with practical wriggle room. Basically a rose is not a rose if we call it something else and nobody questions the practice.

[Paddington Bear]

SLC is poorly understood. It is a graduate tax by another name that the vast majority of us, despite having decent professional jobs, will never be rid of. Was still on balance I think worth me going to uni but I will pay a high marginal rate of tax until I retire for the privilege.

[SaintK]

...........and another one added to the growing list of Tory peerages for donations.

A financier who has donated almost £150,000 to the Conservatives has been made a life peer and given a ministerial job, Downing Street has announced.
Malcolm Offord, founder and chair of an Edinburgh-based “boutique investment” company, Badenoch and Co, will be made a life peer, a statement said, and become a junior minister in the Scotland Office.
Offord was a candidate for the Conservatives in May’s Scottish parliamentary election, a decision that prompted accusations of cronyism given that he had donated £147,500 to the party. Offord stood as a list candidate in the Lothian region, but was not elected.
He is the latest Conservative donor or associate to be sent to the Lords under Boris Johnson.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ ... minister

[Hal Jordan]

Equivalent to the GOP packing the benches, even if the gerrymandering and vote suppression doesn't work, you can tie up legislation for ages and frustrate the other side.

[I like neeps]

For those who don't know the story after the Wayne Couzens case there's been senior police officers come out saying people should actively start resisting arrest and trying to get help from bus drivers if they suspect something is amiss with their arrest?!?! Bus drivers are now the arbiter of rights of civilians and powers of the states? What is going on here.

Priti Patel needs to get a grip on this, fire Cressida Dick and perform a root and branch review. Yes not all police officers are kidnapping, raping and murdering. But Wayne Counzens was in a WhatsApp group that made jokes about it with other cops. Police officers sent offensive WhatsApps whilst investigating and the case of the met officers who took pictures of the two murdered woman and shared them about last year. It's clear one bad apple is not what's gone on here and there is a mysoginist culture in some parts of the Met. There's going to be a crisis of legitimacy the longer the police try and just explain it as one bad apple in a perfectly healthy tree.

After Harold Shipman we didn't sit around and say one bad apple, he wasn't a GP in our eyes etc etc etc but there was serious and meaningful change. The police have become too powerful.

[Lobby]

For those who don't know the story after the Wayne Couzens case there's been senior police officers come out saying people should actively start resisting arrest and trying to get help from bus drivers if they suspect something is amiss with their arrest?!?! Bus drivers are now the arbiter of rights of civilians and powers of the states? What is going on here.

Priti Patel needs to get a grip on this, fire Cressida Dick and perform a root and branch review. Yes not all police officers are kidnapping, raping and murdering. But Wayne Counzens was in a WhatsApp group that made jokes about it with other cops. Police officers sent offensive WhatsApps whilst investigating and the case of the met officers who took pictures of the two murdered woman and shared them about last year. It's clear one bad apple is not what's gone on here and there is a mysoginist culture in some parts of the Met. There's going to be a crisis of legitimacy the longer the police try and just explain it as one bad apple in a perfectly healthy tree.

After Harold Shipman we didn't sit around and say one bad apple, he wasn't a GP in our eyes etc etc etc but there was serious and meaningful change. The police have become too powerful.

His nickname on the force was 'The Rapist' FFS, which makes you wonder what sort of behaviour would lead your colleagues to call you a rapist, and also what sort of a work environment was he working in that people could think it appropriate to casually use such a nickname.

If the police had been doing their job properly, he would have been arrested for three separate instances of indecent exposure in the weeks before he murdered Sarah Everard.

[Paddington Bear]

Seen the 'resist arrest' stuff flying around social media. Could lead to some horrendously ugly situations.

Dick is a disaster, not sure it's directly her fault Couzens wasn't drummed out but the whole force staggers from one avoidable fuck up to another and has done during her whole watch. She needs to go.

Everard's family statements were heartbreaking. There must have been a point reasonably early on that drive down to Dover where she knew she wasn't going to a police station and it was likely she was about to die. Horrendously cruel and hope there's a suitable greeting for him in prison.

[fishfoodie]

Seen the 'resist arrest' stuff flying around social media. Could lead to some horrendously ugly situations.

Dick is a disaster, not sure it's directly her fault Couzens wasn't drummed out but the whole force staggers from one avoidable fuck up to another and has done during her whole watch. She needs to go.

Everard's family statements were heartbreaking. There must have been a point reasonably early on that drive down to Dover where she knew she wasn't going to a police station and it was likely she was about to die. Horrendously cruel and hope there's a suitable greeting for him in prison.

Nothing happened after the Birmingham 6 !
Nothing happened after the Guildford 4, & the Maguire 7 !
Nothing happened after Stephen Lawrence !
Nothing happened after de Menezes !

Why the fuck would anyone think that someone; anyone; is going to erase the blue line ?

It doesn't matter how bent a cop is; they don't get prosecuted !

[Paddington Bear]

Seen the 'resist arrest' stuff flying around social media. Could lead to some horrendously ugly situations.

Dick is a disaster, not sure it's directly her fault Couzens wasn't drummed out but the whole force staggers from one avoidable fuck up to another and has done during her whole watch. She needs to go.

Everard's family statements were heartbreaking. There must have been a point reasonably early on that drive down to Dover where she knew she wasn't going to a police station and it was likely she was about to die. Horrendously cruel and hope there's a suitable greeting for him in prison.

Nothing happened after the Birmingham 6 !
Nothing happened after the Guildford 4, & the Maguire 7 !
Nothing happened after Stephen Lawrence !
Nothing happened after de Menezes !

Why the fuck would anyone think that someone; anyone; is going to erase the blue line ?

It doesn't matter how bent a cop is; they don't get prosecuted !

I mean he's got a whole life sentence so that's not strictly true.

[I like neeps]

The conservative crime commissioner for North Yorkshire has some interesting views on it:



Why on earth is an MD of a PR firm a crime commissioner? And he's also terrible at PR. His career finished you'd think. What a melt.

[SaintK]

You justs couldn't make this up!!!

German driving licences issued before 1999 include an entitlement to drive a small to medium-sized truck of up to 7.5 tonnes. It is understood that almost all Germans residing in the UK who hold such a licence have been sent the letter, almost none of whom have ever driven an HGV before.

One 41-year-old German man, who received two copies of the letter at his London home on Friday morning, one addressed to him and another for his wife, told The Independent.

We were quite surprised,” he said. “I’m sure pay and conditions for HGV drivers have improved, but ultimately I have decided to carry on in my role at an investment bank. My wife has never driven anything larger than a Volvo, so she is also intending to decline the exciting opportunity.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk ... 0558.html

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Because that's who people voted for. The better question is what complete nincompoop created the roles of the PCC for whom almost nobody votes so a clueless tosspot can waste police time

[tabascoboy]

You justs couldn't make this up!!!

German driving licences issued before 1999 include an entitlement to drive a small to medium-sized truck of up to 7.5 tonnes. It is understood that almost all Germans residing in the UK who hold such a licence have been sent the letter, almost none of whom have ever driven an HGV before.

One 41-year-old German man, who received two copies of the letter at his London home on Friday morning, one addressed to him and another for his wife, told The Independent.

We were quite surprised,” he said. “I’m sure pay and conditions for HGV drivers have improved, but ultimately I have decided to carry on in my role at an investment bank. My wife has never driven anything larger than a Volvo, so she is also intending to decline the exciting opportunity.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk ... 0558.html

and they say Germans don't have a sense of humour

[tabascoboy]

Because that's who people voted for. The better question is what complete nincompoop created the roles of the PCC for whom almost nobody votes so a clueless tosspot can waste police time

The then Home Secretary Theresa May I assume

[I like neeps]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 31469.html

Liz Truss says it's not up to the government what's on the shelves

[tabascoboy]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 31469.html

Liz Truss says it's not up to the government what's on the shelves

But Ms Truss, a staunch free-marketer, told an event on the fringes of the conference: "I don't believe in a command and control economy, so I don't believe the Prime Minister is responsible for what's in the shops.

"This is why we have a free enterprise economy, I'm sure that the goods will be delivered into our shops."

As an absolute truth I don't disagree but the unwavering blind faith in the free market solving all ills whenever necessary doesn't absolve this or any government from oversight and action. What exactly is a government for if not making sure its population is adequately provided for for the essentials of life? Having such a laissez-faire lazy attitude and being content to freewheel waiting for things to right themselves is only possible because they see themselves as invulnerable to being unseated at the next election. Also they have no personal worries as their own needs will be taken care of as a priority, you can bet

If there is a serious food and energy shortage over winter are they really just going to shrug their collective shoulders and say "nothing to do with us"? Who do they think the public will blame if that happens? Sainsburys?

[I like neeps]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 31469.html

Liz Truss says it's not up to the government what's on the shelves

But Ms Truss, a staunch free-marketer, told an event on the fringes of the conference: "I don't believe in a command and control economy, so I don't believe the Prime Minister is responsible for what's in the shops.

"This is why we have a free enterprise economy, I'm sure that the goods will be delivered into our shops."

As an absolute truth I don't disagree but the unwavering blind faith in the free market solving all ills whenever necessary doesn't absolve this or any government from oversight and action. What exactly is a government for if not making sure its population is adequately provided for for the essentials of life? Having such a laissez-faire lazy attitude and being content to freewheel waiting for things to right themselves is only possible because they see themselves as invulnerable to being unseated at the next election. Also they have no personal worries as their own needs will be taken care of as a priority, you can bet

If there is a serious food and energy shortage over winter are they really just going to shrug their collective shoulders and say "nothing to do with us"? Who do they think the public will blame if that happens? Sainsburys?

I agree that it's not up to the PM what products are sold. But this is a willfully stupid thing to say as it is the PMs fault supply chains are failing.

Anyway there's always another mentalist to outdo Truss:



It's a good thing supermarkets fail because the village shop will step in.

[tabascoboy]

Chris Loder, the MP for very rural West Dorset would like to see the return of (viable and profitable I assume) village shops? Well in theory so would I but not quite sure how this wonderful idea would work in the inner cities of London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds, Glasgow etc etc which are well known for their farming communities. Or maybe like my grandad did take out milk churns from the dairy ( which of course depended on the old milk trains) by horse and cart so people just turn up with jugs and fill up on the streets. This was back in the 1920s which time is where Chris Loder seems to belong...

[fishfoodie]

If there is a serious food and energy shortage over winter are they really just going to shrug their collective shoulders and say "nothing to do with us"? Who do they think the public will blame if that happens? Sainsburys?

The cynic in me wonders if serious food shortages are part of the plan !

It would then give the "Free Marketeers", the perfect opportunity to burn food standards, & give free access to Brazilian Beef, & American chlorine washed chicken, etc, etc, etc.

Create the Crisis they need, to get make an otherwise impossible plan, the only option ?

[Wyndham Upalot]

So, my ex-wife has been diagnosed with terminal stomach cancer and, a very close friend has died of a covid-related ailment. Life is crud.

[Slick]

So, my ex-wife has been diagnosed with terminal stomach cancer and, a very close friend has died of a covid-related ailment. Life is crud.

Sorry to hear mate, that’s really tough

[Paddington Bear]

If there is a serious food and energy shortage over winter are they really just going to shrug their collective shoulders and say "nothing to do with us"? Who do they think the public will blame if that happens? Sainsburys?

The cynic in me wonders if serious food shortages are part of the plan !

It would then give the "Free Marketeers", the perfect opportunity to burn food standards, & give free access to Brazilian Beef, & American chlorine washed chicken, etc, etc, etc.

Create the Crisis they need, to get make an otherwise impossible plan, the only option ?

Always fascinated that this still circles given that we've had, you know, a full blown and genuine global crisis where everything briefly fell apart and those Tories who apparently are definitely disaster capitalists didn't go full disaster capitalist but will now manufacture another crisis to do it.

[Slick]

If there is a serious food and energy shortage over winter are they really just going to shrug their collective shoulders and say "nothing to do with us"? Who do they think the public will blame if that happens? Sainsburys?

The cynic in me wonders if serious food shortages are part of the plan !

It would then give the "Free Marketeers", the perfect opportunity to burn food standards, & give free access to Brazilian Beef, & American chlorine washed chicken, etc, etc, etc.

Create the Crisis they need, to get make an otherwise impossible plan, the only option ?

Always fascinated that this still circles given that we've had, you know, a full blown and genuine global crisis where everything briefly fell apart and those Tories who apparently are definitely disaster capitalists didn't go full disaster capitalist but will now manufacture another crisis to do it.

And the same folk who go on about what an absolutely shite government it is, with a bunch of morons running, it also think they have the wherewithal to manufacture a massive crisis without anyone knowing.

[tabascoboy]

Well sometimes all you have to do to create a crisis is to do nothing! You can bet that some people will manage to make a tidy sum from supply issues though I'll grant that our government is too lazy to manage that.

[Paddington Bear]

Not defending the government or it's (piss poor) crisis management, just saying that the idea there's an overarching conspiracy designed by the Tories to let the free market run wild is silly.

[fishfoodie]

The cynic in me wonders if serious food shortages are part of the plan !

It would then give the "Free Marketeers", the perfect opportunity to burn food standards, & give free access to Brazilian Beef, & American chlorine washed chicken, etc, etc, etc.

Create the Crisis they need, to get make an otherwise impossible plan, the only option ?

Always fascinated that this still circles given that we've had, you know, a full blown and genuine global crisis where everything briefly fell apart and those Tories who apparently are definitely disaster capitalists didn't go full disaster capitalist but will now manufacture another crisis to do it.

And the same folk who go on about what an absolutely shite government it is, with a bunch of morons running, it also think they have the wherewithal to manufacture a massive crisis without anyone knowing.

I don't think it's a precisely planned crisis; so much as one that some people are happy to exploit, if it takes a particular predicable path.

Liz Truss anticipated shite like this happening FFS, & shes thick as mince !; & if she could see it; then certainly there are others who could see the potential opportunity, if it came to pass. All it takes to exploit, is to just do nothing; & that's exactly what they are doing.

In the same way; the path to further privatisation of the NHS, is to do nothing; & let the waiting lists grow; & when the clamour gets loud enough; blame the public sector system; & throw billions at the private sector, to help clear the waiting lists.

[tabascoboy]

Not defending the government or it's (piss poor) crisis management, just saying that the idea there's an overarching conspiracy designed by the Tories to let the free market run wild is silly.

Not conspiracy so much as an apparent default policy. Less to do with design than a collective dearth of creative ideas

[Paddington Bear]

Right but there's no proof the Tories want to do this, be it privatise the NHS or create a disaster capitalist economy based on supply shortages. In fact, there's a lot of evidence to the contrary.

If you think of the Tories as comic book villains rather than as what they are - people who like being in power and will try and do what is popular in order to stay there - you are massively missing the point.

[Paddington Bear]

Not defending the government or it's (piss poor) crisis management, just saying that the idea there's an overarching conspiracy designed by the Tories to let the free market run wild is silly.

Not conspiracy so much as an apparent default policy. Less to do with design than a collective dearth of creative ideas

I fully agree they bear substantial responsibility for failing to have contingencies for this crisis and think contingency/redundancy will be a big political debate in the next few years. What's crucial though is that either this crisis will resolve itself or the State will be forced to intervene, they're not going to let things go full Mad Max.

[Tichtheid]

Always fascinated that this still circles given that we've had, you know, a full blown and genuine global crisis where everything briefly fell apart and those Tories who apparently are definitely disaster capitalists didn't go full disaster capitalist but will now manufacture another crisis to do it.

And the same folk who go on about what an absolutely shite government it is, with a bunch of morons running, it also think they have the wherewithal to manufacture a massive crisis without anyone knowing.

I don't think it's a precisely planned crisis; so much as one that some people are happy to exploit, if it takes a particular predicable path.

Liz Truss anticipated shite like this happening FFS, & shes thick as mince !; & if she could see it; then certainly there are others who could see the potential opportunity, if it came to pass. All it takes to exploit, is to just do nothing; & that's exactly what they are doing.

In the same way; the path to further privatisation of the NHS, is to do nothing; & let the waiting lists grow; & when the clamour gets loud enough; blame the public sector system; & throw billions at the private sector, to help clear the waiting lists.

Yes, it does look like a deliberate ploy of underfunding for the reasons you state, they did it with the railways and utilities, but the NHS has been a bit of a sacred cow until now.
What makes it worse is that the areas where there isn't really a profit to be made, indeed loss-making, will have to be under-written by the public purse, but you'll still need insurance for it, which won't pay out.

The closest we have to an insurance-based health system is veterinary practice, the itemised list for an operation on my dog read like a small novel and we were only covered for half of the £7K it cost.
When I dislocated my finger I had to have it operated on, I was offered a sedative alongside the block on my arm, "It's just like a large G&T" said the anaesthetist, so of course I said yes.
She turned to her assistant and said, "That would cost the patient $300 in the hospital I worked in in New York" - insurance companies won't pay for discretionary items like that.

[tabascoboy]

Not defending the government or it's (piss poor) crisis management, just saying that the idea there's an overarching conspiracy designed by the Tories to let the free market run wild is silly.

Not conspiracy so much as an apparent default policy. Less to do with design than a collective dearth of creative ideas

I fully agree they bear substantial responsibility for failing to have contingencies for this crisis and think contingency/redundancy will be a big political debate in the next few years. What's crucial though is that either this crisis will resolve itself or the State will be forced to intervene, they're not going to let things go full Mad Max.

Indeed, just wait until things reach a certain point where it can no longer be ignored then it's "We'll get the army in!"