NPR

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:00 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 6:44 am And? That doesn't answer his question.

It's funny how you've turned this into us being moneybags over the French!

Last 10 finals is 4 French winners, 4 English winners and two Irish.

Leinster's budget is on par with any of the top T14 sides.

The point is the attrition. Toulouse were shattered last week and La Rochelle will be shattered next week. Surely you can see how Leinster having time off to prepare and taper specifically for HEC matches gives them a huge advantage over teams flogging their guts out week-in week-out?

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:11 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:00 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 6:44 am And? That doesn't answer his question.

It's funny how you've turned this into us being moneybags over the French!

Last 10 finals is 4 French winners, 4 English winners and two Irish.

Leinster's budget is on par with any of the top T14 sides.

The point is the attrition. Toulouse were shattered last week and La Rochelle will be shattered next week. Surely you can see how Leinster having time off to prepare and taper specifically for HEC matches gives them a huge advantage over teams flogging their guts out week-in week-out?

the IRFU spent €37.6m on professional game costs in Ireland last season. The clubs in France will fork out a total of €302.1m this season and that, of course, has nothing to do with the international team costs.

The above quote on Irish spending seems about right to me given that there are four teams, I think the SRU spends around £24M on the pro game from the last time I looked at the annual accounts, that's Edinburgh, Glasgow, Scotland 7s, U20s, Scotland (all including both men's and women's teams). That's everything from Gregor Townsend's salary to the people who paint the lines on the pitches.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:00 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 6:44 am And? That doesn't answer his question.

It's funny how you've turned this into us being moneybags over the French!

Last 10 finals is 4 French winners, 4 English winners and two Irish.

Leinster's budget is on par with any of the top T14 sides.

Once again Toga, your imagination is not a valid source of information!

https://www.sportune.fr/sport-business/ ... 022-266282

The three French semi finalists have a combined budget bigger than the IRFU's entire revenue.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:00 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 6:44 am And? That doesn't answer his question.

It's funny how you've turned this into us being moneybags over the French!

Last 10 finals is 4 French winners, 4 English winners and two Irish.

Leinster's budget is on par with any of the top T14 sides.

The point is the attrition. Toulouse were shattered last week and La Rochelle will be shattered next week. Surely you can see how Leinster having time off to prepare and taper specifically for HEC matches gives them a huge advantage over teams flogging their guts out week-in week-out?

Sounds like the problem is that Leinster use their budget and squad much more effectively than the French teams then? Leinster are comparatively rested because they are comfortably top of their league while being able to rotate the team constantly.

robmatic wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:25 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:00 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 6:44 am And? That doesn't answer his question.

It's funny how you've turned this into us being moneybags over the French!

Last 10 finals is 4 French winners, 4 English winners and two Irish.

Leinster's budget is on par with any of the top T14 sides.

The point is the attrition. Toulouse were shattered last week and La Rochelle will be shattered next week. Surely you can see how Leinster having time off to prepare and taper specifically for HEC matches gives them a huge advantage over teams flogging their guts out week-in week-out?

Sounds like the problem is that Leinster use their budget and squad much more effectively than the French teams then? Leinster are comparatively rested because they are comfortably top of their league while being able to rotate the team constantly.

Aye, one of the benefits of central contracting is that the Union is invested in the welfare of the players.

eg, the international players in Scotland have a mandatory rest period after five consecutive games.

Actually, scrap what I said previously about the IRFU pro game spending, this is from the IRFU themselves

Professional game costs increased by almost €20million, to just over €68million reflecting amongst other things, the financial assistance provided to the provinces during the pandemic,

So "normal year" spending is around €48million

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2021/11/12/ir ... july-2021/


edit, and for the sake of fuck knows what because no one cares, the most recent spending in Scotland on "professional and international rugby" is £27.6M

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:24 am https://www.sportune.fr/sport-business/ ... 022-266282

The three French semi finalists have a combined budget bigger than the IRFU's entire revenue.

Aren't there other things at play in those French budgets? I read something a few years ago saying that Toulouse's budget covered things like maintaining a municipal stadium, wages of staff and maybe even other sports, iirc.

All this talk of budgets... there are so many differences between Ireland and France/England to make it almost impossible to compare.

robmatic wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:25 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:00 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 6:44 am And? That doesn't answer his question.

It's funny how you've turned this into us being moneybags over the French!

Last 10 finals is 4 French winners, 4 English winners and two Irish.

Leinster's budget is on par with any of the top T14 sides.

The point is the attrition. Toulouse were shattered last week and La Rochelle will be shattered next week. Surely you can see how Leinster having time off to prepare and taper specifically for HEC matches gives them a huge advantage over teams flogging their guts out week-in week-out?

Sounds like the problem is that Leinster use their budget and squad much more effectively than the French teams then? Leinster are comparatively rested because they are comfortably top of their league while being able to rotate the team constantly.

Do you suppose that Leinster would be at the top of the T14 if they didn't play their best players more than they need to in the URC to achieve the same?

Leinster are a very good team, they're the Ireland team in blue shirts, of course they're good. The current competitions they compete in compliment their model almost perfectly. That's great for Leinster and by extension Ireland.

However, that is not a structure that serves the best interests of other side's in the HEC, and, unfortunately for Leinster, between them the English and French clubs have virtual all the commercial clout.

Flying the players to Johannesburg and back between rounds of the GP and T14 is not going to make things better either.

The (non-URC) players are being flogged.

RichieRich89 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:36 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:24 am https://www.sportune.fr/sport-business/ ... 022-266282

The three French semi finalists have a combined budget bigger than the IRFU's entire revenue.

Aren't there other things at play in those French budgets? I read something a few years ago saying that Toulouse's budget covered things like maintaining a municipal stadium, wages of staff and maybe even other sports, iirc.

All this talk of budgets... there are so many differences between Ireland and France/England to make it almost impossible to compare.

It's almost impossible to compare mainly because of the opaque and Byzantine way that Irish rugby is financed.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:38 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:25 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:00 am



Leinster's budget is on par with any of the top T14 sides.

The point is the attrition. Toulouse were shattered last week and La Rochelle will be shattered next week. Surely you can see how Leinster having time off to prepare and taper specifically for HEC matches gives them a huge advantage over teams flogging their guts out week-in week-out?

Sounds like the problem is that Leinster use their budget and squad much more effectively than the French teams then? Leinster are comparatively rested because they are comfortably top of their league while being able to rotate the team constantly.

Do you suppose that Leinster would be at the top of the T14 if they didn't play their best players more than they need to in the URC to achieve the same?

Leinster are a very good team, they're the Ireland team in blue shirts, of course they're good. The current competitions they compete in compliment their model almost perfectly. That's great for Leinster and by extension Ireland.

However, that is not a structure that serves the best interests of other side's in the HEC, and, unfortunately for Leinster, between them the English and French clubs have virtual all the commercial clout.

Flying the players to Johannesburg and back between rounds of the GP and T14 is not going to make things better either.

The (non-URC) players are being flogged.

Leinster have won 1 European Cup in the last decade. You're going on as if they win it every year and no-one else can get near them.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:32 am So "normal year" spending is around €48million

Leinster get more than the other 3 provinces so my £10m estimate (€12m) was extremely conservative.

The current GP salary cap is £5m (€6m). With add-ons that's maybe £6m.

RichieRich89 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:36 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:24 am https://www.sportune.fr/sport-business/ ... 022-266282

The three French semi finalists have a combined budget bigger than the IRFU's entire revenue.

Aren't there other things at play in those French budgets? I read something a few years ago saying that Toulouse's budget covered things like maintaining a municipal stadium, wages of staff and maybe even other sports, iirc.

All this talk of budgets... there are so many differences between Ireland and France/England to make it almost impossible to compare.

I was comparing like with like (although I don't think the entire IRFU revenue includes some of the provincial revenue). So yes, the top 14 budgets will include other costs in the same way the IRFU budget does.

I think you could probably add another 30m to the overall Irish revenue so add in a 4th French club to see them over Ireland's entire rugby revenue.

It's ridiculous to suggest there's financial parity. We level the playing field in different ways outside simple financial clout.

RichieRich89 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:42 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:38 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:25 am

Sounds like the problem is that Leinster use their budget and squad much more effectively than the French teams then? Leinster are comparatively rested because they are comfortably top of their league while being able to rotate the team constantly.

Do you suppose that Leinster would be at the top of the T14 if they didn't play their best players more than they need to in the URC to achieve the same?

Leinster are a very good team, they're the Ireland team in blue shirts, of course they're good. The current competitions they compete in compliment their model almost perfectly. That's great for Leinster and by extension Ireland.

However, that is not a structure that serves the best interests of other side's in the HEC, and, unfortunately for Leinster, between them the English and French clubs have virtual all the commercial clout.

Flying the players to Johannesburg and back between rounds of the GP and T14 is not going to make things better either.

The (non-URC) players are being flogged.

Leinster have won 1 European Cup in the last decade. You're going on as if they win it every year and no-one else can get near them.

That doesn't change the fact that English and French players health is stressed much more. This isn't a new problem, it's just more manifest this year because of the way Leinster have rested players playing against tired players.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:38 am
The (non-URC) players are being flogged.

Then perhaps you should stop flogging them dear boy!

That's the point you seem incapable of grasping.
Edit: That's one of the many many points you seem incapable of grasping!

Leaving Leinster aside Toga - what other teams have an unfair advantage to your mind due to the structure of the URC? After all, you are saying it is the URC's structure that is affording Leinster this advantage, so surely it must be affording all the teams a similar one - no?


And everyone's finances are opaque to the general public, as they probably should be to be fair. We still don't know definitively by how much Saracens financially doped their way to success for instance.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:45 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:32 am So "normal year" spending is around €48million

Leinster get more than the other 3 provinces so my £10m estimate (€12m) was extremely conservative.

The current GP salary cap is £5m (€6m). With add-ons that's maybe £6m.

Leinster don't get more. They get the same. Their players might earn more via their international payments. This has been explained to you many, many times. You consistently refuse to accept this.

If Leinster were a premiership club, their players would be paid well above your ridiculous £6m underestimate. Match fees alone would come to £3m+ before you get to marquee players, academy players not being part of the cap and the allowances for EQP players.

Would you ever stop with your never ending stream of bullshit and not comparing like with like?

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:53 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:45 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:32 am So "normal year" spending is around €48million

Leinster get more than the other 3 provinces so my £10m estimate (€12m) was extremely conservative.

The current GP salary cap is £5m (€6m). With add-ons that's maybe £6m.

Leinster don't get more. They get the same. Their players might earn more via their international payments. This has been explained to you many, many times. You consistently refuse to accept this.

If Leinster were a premiership club, their players would be paid well above your ridiculous £6m underestimate. Match fees alone would come to £3m+ before you get to marquee players, academy players not being part of the cap and the allowances for EQP players.

Would you ever stop with your never ending stream of bullshit and not comparing like with like?

The GP salary cap is £5m. That's not negotiable.

So what size portion of the €48m do Leinster get then?

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:48 am

RichieRich89 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:42 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:38 am



Do you suppose that Leinster would be at the top of the T14 if they didn't play their best players more than they need to in the URC to achieve the same?

Leinster are a very good team, they're the Ireland team in blue shirts, of course they're good. The current competitions they compete in compliment their model almost perfectly. That's great for Leinster and by extension Ireland.

However, that is not a structure that serves the best interests of other side's in the HEC, and, unfortunately for Leinster, between them the English and French clubs have virtual all the commercial clout.

Flying the players to Johannesburg and back between rounds of the GP and T14 is not going to make things better either.

The (non-URC) players are being flogged.

Leinster have won 1 European Cup in the last decade. You're going on as if they win it every year and no-one else can get near them.

That doesn't change the fact that English and French players health is stressed much more. This isn't a new problem, it's just more manifest this year because of the way Leinster have rested players playing against tired players.

Okaaay...

Are we just talking about the knockouts here? It was one match an English team had to play against Leinster. And they gave it a pretty good shot, getting stronger as the game wore on. It's an attritional game, especially the way Leicester play it. Of course they'll feel it a little bit more than if they were only in the Challenge Cup or hadn't made the Euro knockouts at all. It's the nature of top flight rugby. But is there really any evidence that more damage has been caused to Leicester players from having to play Leinster as opposed to being up against a French team, say?

Seems like a bit of a clutching at straws argument to me.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:00 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:53 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:45 am



Leinster get more than the other 3 provinces so my £10m estimate (€12m) was extremely conservative.

The current GP salary cap is £5m (€6m). With add-ons that's maybe £6m.

Leinster don't get more. They get the same. Their players might earn more via their international payments. This has been explained to you many, many times. You consistently refuse to accept this.

If Leinster were a premiership club, their players would be paid well above your ridiculous £6m underestimate. Match fees alone would come to £3m+ before you get to marquee players, academy players not being part of the cap and the allowances for EQP players.

Would you ever stop with your never ending stream of bullshit and not comparing like with like?

The GP salary cap is £5m. That's not negotiable.

So what size portion of the €48m do Leinster get then?

It's £5m plus two marquee players, plus homegrown player credits plus academy players and doesn't include payments for playing international rugby.

We have a different payment structure here so you comparing an Irish international's deal of €500k to an English international club salary of the same is disingenuous and not comparing like with like. The comparable deals are €500k for the Irish guy and €700k + for the English guy.

You also way overestimate how much some of the Irish internationals are on. Their provincial contracts would be under 200k and they would top up their earnings with match fees playing for Ireland. Match fees that are well below what the English players get.

Irish players accept below market rate for a variety of reasons so, again, could you stop with your unfounded bullshit and start accepting that it's not a money game.

Like Scotland the IRFU funds the entire game in their country, so if you are comparing a premiership salary cap you have to make them apples into pears. eg the pears the SRU fund is the salaries for the international teams at all levels (Scot/U207s both men and women), coaches fitness, doctors, bagmen everything. Then go down a notch and add in those in the Edinburgh and Glasgow set ups, then there is the running of the stadiums, the transport (I think world 7s pay a lot for their transport) etc before we get to players wages from expat internationals like Finn for Scotland games, through full time pros who play in Scotland, to academy guys at the two clubs. That is all funded from the £27M.

In Ireland their forty eight million euro cake is split four ways between the clubs as well as the other factors. The French teams' budgets are inclusive of this.

The five million prem cap is only fraction of their clubs' expenditure.

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:10 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:00 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:53 am

Leinster don't get more. They get the same. Their players might earn more via their international payments. This has been explained to you many, many times. You consistently refuse to accept this.

If Leinster were a premiership club, their players would be paid well above your ridiculous £6m underestimate. Match fees alone would come to £3m+ before you get to marquee players, academy players not being part of the cap and the allowances for EQP players.

Would you ever stop with your never ending stream of bullshit and not comparing like with like?

The GP salary cap is £5m. That's not negotiable.

So what size portion of the €48m do Leinster get then?

It's £5m plus two marquee players, plus homegrown player credits plus academy players and doesn't include payments for playing international rugby.

We have a different payment structure here so you comparing an Irish international's deal of €500k to an English international club salary of the same is disingenuous and not comparing like with like. The comparable deals are €500k for the Irish guy and €700k + for the English guy.

You also way overestimate how much some of the Irish internationals are on. Their provincial contracts would be under 200k and they would top up their earnings with match fees playing for Ireland. Match fees that are well below what the English players get.

Irish players accept below market rate for a variety of reasons so, again, could you stop with your unfounded bullshit and start accepting that it's not a money game.

€48m gets spent somewhere so how much of it benefits Leinster?

The GP cap is £5m. Only 1 marquee player now. England player credits are £80k per year capped at a maximum of £400k per club. There is also an incentive to develop EQP players from the academy and that scheme is capped at £600k. I'm not sure how many GP teams would qualify for the full England player credit (they'd need 5 players in the EPS to qualify) and some GP teams have dreadful EQP academy representation so not many would get the full £600k either (which would mean 12 English academy players in the senior squad).

My £1m extra on top of the cap is about right but only for a few teams at the top of the league.

Thought this was going to a lovely thread about some jolly exciting matches over the weekend.

Whilst not having an axe to grind on this never ending discussion……. It’s the English games fault if they are not performing ‘this year’. Players didn’t perform in 6N either.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 8:38 am
Do you suppose that Leinster would be at the top of the T14 if they didn't play their best players more than they need to in the URC to achieve the same?

Leinster are a very good team, they're the Ireland team in blue shirts, of course they're good. The current competitions they compete in compliment their model almost perfectly. That's great for Leinster and by extension Ireland.

I think they would probably do quite well in the T14 with their rotation policy, they've got a lot of quality in their wider squad and the weaker sides they put out never capitulate away from home.

Rubbish that English and French teams will have to play in SA in the European tournament. Leinster have a bayern Munich/man UTD* type position in the URC and we have to accept that they have a different model and structure to the English one (which is nearer NFL than the English football premiership). English rugby is in-between cycles of players currently. The last cycle ended at the 2019 world cup for me.

*Man UTD being badly run while Bayern Munich are well run.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:23 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:10 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:00 am


The GP salary cap is £5m. That's not negotiable.

So what size portion of the €48m do Leinster get then?

It's £5m plus two marquee players, plus homegrown player credits plus academy players and doesn't include payments for playing international rugby.

We have a different payment structure here so you comparing an Irish international's deal of €500k to an English international club salary of the same is disingenuous and not comparing like with like. The comparable deals are €500k for the Irish guy and €700k + for the English guy.

You also way overestimate how much some of the Irish internationals are on. Their provincial contracts would be under 200k and they would top up their earnings with match fees playing for Ireland. Match fees that are well below what the English players get.

Irish players accept below market rate for a variety of reasons so, again, could you stop with your unfounded bullshit and start accepting that it's not a money game.

€48m gets spent somewhere so how much of it benefits Leinster?

The GP cap is £5m. Only 1 marquee player now. England player credits are £80k per year capped at a maximum of £400k per club. There is also an incentive to develop EQP players from the academy and that scheme is capped at £600k. I'm not sure how many GP teams would qualify for the full England player credit (they'd need 5 players in the EPS to qualify) and some GP teams have dreadful EQP academy representation so not many would get the full £600k either (which would mean 12 English academy players in the senior squad).

My £1m extra on top of the cap is about right but only for a few teams at the top of the league.

The current cap is a covid measure so if we're comparing like with like I presume you've factored in the 10-40% pay cut into your Irish calculations?

It's also two marquee for any current contracts so not likely to be relevant this year. And you have yet again ignored the massive amount of money the English internationals get from the RFU.

Your problem is that you can't get your head around the fact that our players aren't looking for full market rate and that by virtue of only having four teams, our internationals are condensed into those teams. That is our advantage, it's not that Leinster are financially screwing anyone over. We've decent revenue streams but the better managed English clubs compare. The extra earnings come from playing for Ireland. An avenue open to English players too and any other current internationals in the system.

Currently our team is somewhat Leinster lopsided. That's due to the grassroots in Leinster churning out very good technical players every year. Although it's not confined to Leinster these days. As you'd have noted with our recent success at u20 level.

Ultimately we've got a system that provides decent players who want to play for their province and country above all else. We're all but unique in the NH in having players grow up en masse wanting to play for just one provincial team. Sure, players move if they have to but even great clubs in England and France won't have every single player in a wide catchment area wanting to play for that club. This creates more wage inflation and more squad turnover. And rugby bring a team game means this impacts the overall competitiveness of a team no matter how much money they have.

So what chunk of the €48m spent annually benefits Leinster?

We can take the GP team that contributes the most players to the England team and add what they get paid directly by the RFU in match fees to the £6m but it still won't get above £7m (€8.5m).

PCPhil wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:27 am Thought this was going to a lovely thread about some jolly exciting matches over the weekend.

Whilst not having an axe to grind on this never ending discussion……. It’s the English games fault if they are not performing ‘this year’. Players didn’t perform in 6N either.

Yeah I think a don't feed the Troll/Loon (delete as appropriate) policy needs to be employed. Apologies for my role in feeding him!

PornDog wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:54 am

PCPhil wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:27 am Thought this was going to a lovely thread about some jolly exciting matches over the weekend.

Whilst not having an axe to grind on this never ending discussion……. It’s the English games fault if they are not performing ‘this year’. Players didn’t perform in 6N either.

Yeah I think a don't feed the Troll/Loon (delete as appropriate) policy needs to be employed. Apologies for my role in feeding him!

I'm sorry you feel that way. Leinster are a great team if that helps soothe you. I just wish other teams could play them to the best of their ability and make a decent fight of it.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:54 am So what chunk of the €48m spent annually benefits Leinster?

We can take the GP team that contributes the most players to the England team and add what they get paid directly by the RFU in match fees to the £6m but it still won't get above £7m (€8.5m).

A Premiership club would only need 4 full internationals to hit £8m total payments to players without much sweating.

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:58 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:54 am So what chunk of the €48m spent annually benefits Leinster?

We can take the GP team that contributes the most players to the England team and add what they get paid directly by the RFU in match fees to the £6m but it still won't get above £7m (€8.5m).

A Premiership club would only need 4 full internationals to hit £8m total payments to players without much sweating.

Yes, about 4 playing 10 test matches per year is slightly <£1m. So £1m added to the £6m is £7m, not £8m. And how many GP teams do you think that happens to?!

So what chunk of the €48m spent annually benefits Leinster?

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:03 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:58 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:54 am So what chunk of the €48m spent annually benefits Leinster?

We can take the GP team that contributes the most players to the England team and add what they get paid directly by the RFU in match fees to the £6m but it still won't get above £7m (€8.5m).

A Premiership club would only need 4 full internationals to hit £8m total payments to players without much sweating.

Yes, about 4 playing 10 test matches per year. And how many GP teams do you think that happens to?!

So what chunk of the €48m spent annually benefits Leinster?

25 cent.

I've no idea toga. Neither do you. But it only takes 4 French clubs to match the entire turnover of Irish rugby yet we're gaming the system financially?

PCPhil wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:27 am Thought this was going to a lovely thread about some jolly exciting matches over the weekend.

Whilst not having an axe to grind on this never ending discussion……. It’s the English games fault if they are not performing ‘this year’. Players didn’t perform in 6N either.

Do you see those as connected? I don't really think they are. There are plenty of England players who demonstrate better form for their clubs than the national team an there aren't many clubs that have such a concentration of England players that national team woes should be adversely affecting the club.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:03 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:58 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:54 am So what chunk of the €48m spent annually benefits Leinster?

We can take the GP team that contributes the most players to the England team and add what they get paid directly by the RFU in match fees to the £6m but it still won't get above £7m (€8.5m).

A Premiership club would only need 4 full internationals to hit £8m total payments to players without much sweating.

Yes, about 4 playing 10 test matches per year is £1m. So £1m added to the £6m is £7m, not £8m. And how many GP teams do you think that happens to?!

So what chunk of the €48m spent annually benefits Leinster?

£5m plus two marquee players, let's say £6.2m, plus £1m+ RFU payments plus homegrown credit plus academy contract plus EPS credit isn't far off. Oh I forgot the £400k injured player credit so that's well over £8m now.

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:07 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:03 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:58 am

A Premiership club would only need 4 full internationals to hit £8m total payments to players without much sweating.

Yes, about 4 playing 10 test matches per year. And how many GP teams do you think that happens to?!

So what chunk of the €48m spent annually benefits Leinster?

25 cent.

I've no idea toga. Neither do you. But it only takes 4 French clubs to match the entire turnover of Irish rugby yet we're gaming the system financially?

We can guess can't we. If Leinster get 25% of €48m then they get €12m (£10m). However, we know they get more than that when you filter in match fees. A lot more because of course Leinster have a lot of Irish players. So what would be your best estimate be? €18m (£15.5m) top end estimate with a low estimate of €14m (£12m). Is that fair?

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:12 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:03 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:58 am

A Premiership club would only need 4 full internationals to hit £8m total payments to players without much sweating.

Yes, about 4 playing 10 test matches per year is £1m. So £1m added to the £6m is £7m, not £8m. And how many GP teams do you think that happens to?!

So what chunk of the €48m spent annually benefits Leinster?

£5m plus two marquee players, let's say £6.2m, plus £1m+ RFU payments plus homegrown credit plus academy contract plus EPS credit isn't far off. Oh I forgot the £400k injured player credit so that's well over £8m now.

It's only one marquee player now.

You've also added the RFU payments twice there which is cute.

EPS players are capped at £400k. EQP academy development is capped at £600k. Both those are maximums, not actuals.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:15 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:12 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:03 am


Yes, about 4 playing 10 test matches per year is £1m. So £1m added to the £6m is £7m, not £8m. And how many GP teams do you think that happens to?!

So what chunk of the €48m spent annually benefits Leinster?

£5m plus two marquee players, let's say £6.2m, plus £1m+ RFU payments plus homegrown credit plus academy contract plus EPS credit isn't far off. Oh I forgot the £400k injured player credit so that's well over £8m now.

It's only one marquee player now.

For new contracts. So not relevant to this season.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:14 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:07 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:03 am


Yes, about 4 playing 10 test matches per year. And how many GP teams do you think that happens to?!

So what chunk of the €48m spent annually benefits Leinster?

25 cent.

I've no idea toga. Neither do you. But it only takes 4 French clubs to match the entire turnover of Irish rugby yet we're gaming the system financially?

We can guess can't we. If Leinster get 25% of €48m then they get €12m (£10m). However, we know they get more than that when you filter in match fees. A lot more because of course Leinster have a lot of Irish players. So what would be your best estimate be? €18m (£15.5m) top end estimate with a low estimate of €14m (£12m). Is that fair?

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:18 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:14 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:07 am

25 cent.

I've no idea toga. Neither do you. But it only takes 4 French clubs to match the entire turnover of Irish rugby yet we're gaming the system financially?

We can guess can't we. If Leinster get 25% of €48m then they get €12m (£10m). However, we know they get more than that when you filter in match fees. A lot more because of course Leinster have a lot of Irish players. So what would be your best estimate be? €18m (£15.5m) top end estimate with a low estimate of €14m (£12m). Is that fair?

Why be so coy about it? Let's do the math and try to figure out what chunk of the €48m Leinster get.

You do realise the figure you're using is not one that just includes salaries?

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:21 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:18 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:14 am


We can guess can't we. If Leinster get 25% of €48m then they get €12m (£10m). However, we know they get more than that when you filter in match fees. A lot more because of course Leinster have a lot of Irish players. So what would be your best estimate be? €18m (£15.5m) top end estimate with a low estimate of €14m (£12m). Is that fair?

Why be so coy about it? Let's do the math and try to figure out what chunk of the €48m Leinster get.

Here's some maths for you Toga - Itoje is thought to earn £800k per year from Saracens only (on the books at least).

Highest paid player at Leinster is thought to be Furlong at somewhere between €600k-€700k (including his Ireland pay, but we'll let that slide for now).

One, or both of the following MUST therefore be true if Leinster are paying more on wages than Saracens - why? Because maths is something that exists and 2+2=4

1. Leinster are massively overpaying thier lower tier players compared to Saracens
2. Leinster pay many more players than Saracens do

One or both of those thing must be true, because Sarries unquestionably pay their top players much more than Leinster do and they will obviously have to "catch up" somewhere.