NPR

petej wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:22 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:16 pm Should get Timo on for Jegou who has been anonymous. Eng done a perfect job in nullifying Tuilagi who really looks more like an 8 against decent oppos than a lock.

Tuilagi should be told to go away and get in shape. You would be better with a real lock.

petej wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:41 pm

petej wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:22 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:16 pm Should get Timo on for Jegou who has been anonymous. Eng done a perfect job in nullifying Tuilagi who really looks more like an 8 against decent oppos than a lock.

Tuilagi should be told to go away and get in shape. You would be better with a real lock.

You are much better with a real lock.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:44 pm Very tight on the touchline there

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:49 pm That's FIFTY you yappy c**ts.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 4:54 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 4:08 pm What's with NZ in this tournament, just not very good squad or not much commitment to the age group in general?

Can't comment on their commitment but it really was men v boys when they came up against France. Playing with 14 men eventually told against Aus.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:30 pm This is done. I missed the first half but sounded like we gave them a huge scare. Losing the physical battle this half though, which is not really a surprise given the sheer size of these guys, and France are making good decisions with the ball and running some good lines.

Harris has been so frustrating to watch whenever I've seen him play.

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:56 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:52 pm

petej wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:44 pm

I don't think the half backs are the main problem.

Nope. That has not helped but like I said, these conditions suit Eng. Fra's interpassing game is seriously floundering.

How so? England has some pretty slick hands in the first try.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:44 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:30 pm This is done. I missed the first half but sounded like we gave them a huge scare. Losing the physical battle this half though, which is not really a surprise given the sheer size of these guys, and France are making good decisions with the ball and running some good lines.

Harris has been so frustrating to watch whenever I've seen him play.

Hilarious. The same old "monster Fre pack" nonsense trotted out again. The Eng pack was significantly heavier than the Fre (and it told in the scrums early on) and that discrepancy was even wider when you consider how Tuilagi distorted their average weight (in much the same way as Atonio does it for the seniors),

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:49 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:44 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:30 pm This is done. I missed the first half but sounded like we gave them a huge scare. Losing the physical battle this half though, which is not really a surprise given the sheer size of these guys, and France are making good decisions with the ball and running some good lines.

Harris has been so frustrating to watch whenever I've seen him play.

Hilarious. The same old "monster Fre pack" nonsense trotted out again. The Eng pack was significantly heavier than the Fre (and it told in the scrums early on) and that discrepancy was even wider when you consider how Tuilagi distorted their average weight (in much the same way as Atonio does it for the seniors),

In much the same way that... when you remove Atonio most French players are bigger than their counterparts? It's not just the pack, either.

And it shows on the field. Like it showed yesterday. It is what it is, and player weights are practically creative writing, so it's not like we can argue over pure data. If the roles were reversed I'd be thrilled with the physical disparity, because power is everything in rugby.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:50 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:49 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:44 am

Hilarious. The same old "monster Fre pack" nonsense trotted out again. The Eng pack was significantly heavier than the Fre (and it told in the scrums early on) and that discrepancy was even wider when you consider how Tuilagi distorted their average weight (in much the same way as Atonio does it for the seniors),

In much the same way that... when you remove Atonio most French players are bigger than their counterparts? It's not just the pack, either.

And it shows on the field. Like it showed yesterday. It is what it is, and player weights are practically creative writing, so it's not like we can argue over pure data. If the roles were reversed I'd be thrilled with the physical disparity, because power is everything in rugby.

Not sure I follow that. IIRC (accepting that all these stats are probably wrong), the Eng pack was significantly heavier than the Fre. Take out Tuiliagi and the differences were even more marked.

That's true at seniors too (and has been for a very long time despite the hackneyed myths purveyed by Eng speaking commentators). Atonio (when he starts) and Willemse are lumps but the backrows are pretty light/mobile: no equivalent of Billy Vunipola's mass probably since Picamoles. Usually, Fra has started with a pack lighter than most key opponents.

There is something I guess in the backs
- Dupont isn't big but is a freak.
- Ntamack is big guy for a FH although I'd question just how useful that is.
- Danty is a lump but most sides employ one at 12 anyway.
- Fickou and Penaud are big guys.Penaud definitely out of the norm for a wing. Time makes comparisons difficult but I think had he played in Lomu's era, he'd have been talked of in the same vein.
- Villiere is tiny and a freak at least as much so as Dupont although his sick absences have seen Dumortier in who is more like Penaud. Even Thomas is a much bigger guy than many suspect.
- Ramos isn't at all big but is another who is surprisingly strong.

So, ironically, Fra's power advantage is really in the backs. That is magnified by the happy stance that other than Danty (and the hapless Ntamack........), they all possess some other weapons from: pace, tackling, turnovers, kicking. Power (which isn't a guarantee with size) is too much in rugby**. What we are seeing with these last 3 Fre U20 RWC sides is pace and handling to go with it. I wasn't kidding earlier in the comp when I said they passed better than most of the NZ backs and that Timo was faster than anyone on the NZ side bar maybe Tangitau.

**Hence why I think SA are quite capable of simply steam rollering Fra and everyone else later this year.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:27 am I believe I am correct in saying that Danty is the biggest back in the 6N by some way. And yes, my point is more than just about the pack, but I'm not on board with the idea that the French pack is only big because of a couple of players. I will say the last time this got discussed with a claim that (for example) Aldritt was one of the smaller back rowers in the 6N, I pointed out he's a real unit and was comfortably one of the largest 8s in the tournament. He plays like it, too - mobile for sure, but also very, very physical in a way that smaller 8s just can't bring. Instead of repeating all that discussion you and I had I'll just link you to it: https://notplanetrugby.com/viewtopic.ph ... tt#p198947 so you can see where I'm coming from wrt the senior French side and what I'm basing it on.

Anyway, I'm on much less solid ground when it comes to the U20s because I only watched half of the England/France game and was struck by the difference in size and physicality. This will have been influenced by the substitutes as well. It wasn't just Tuilagi. However I will not claim great knowledge of the U20s on either side and don't have as much of a dog in the fight.

Sards wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 4:17 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 4:04 pm Paul de Villiers the only Saffer worth a mention. The rest are kak. White dog shite.

It's about time he did something.

Sards wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 12:55 pm

Sards wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 4:17 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 4:04 pm Paul de Villiers the only Saffer worth a mention. The rest are kak. White dog shite.

It's about time he did something.

And I am sorry but his decision making was Kak. That's what cost the game. I wanted to poesklap him at times

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 12:50 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:27 am I believe I am correct in saying that Danty is the biggest back in the 6N by some way. And yes, my point is more than just about the pack, but I'm not on board with the idea that the French pack is only big because of a couple of players. I will say the last time this got discussed with a claim that (for example) Aldritt was one of the smaller back rowers in the 6N, I pointed out he's a real unit and was comfortably one of the largest 8s in the tournament. He plays like it, too - mobile for sure, but also very, very physical in a way that smaller 8s just can't bring. Instead of repeating all that discussion you and I had I'll just link you to it: https://notplanetrugby.com/viewtopic.ph ... tt#p198947 so you can see where I'm coming from wrt the senior French side and what I'm basing it on.

Anyway, I'm on much less solid ground when it comes to the U20s because I only watched half of the England/France game and was struck by the difference in size and physicality. This will have been influenced by the substitutes as well. It wasn't just Tuilagi. However I will not claim great knowledge of the U20s on either side and don't have as much of a dog in the fight.

I can believe that re Danty.
This would be affirmation bias but, for example,
https://www.ruck.co.uk/ranked-the-super ... round-one/
(funny how deceptive things can be: I'd never have had Hill down as a full sized troll).

As you say, journo stats for player weights can probably taken with a pinch of salt. If I had hours on my hands, I might have gone to the Union sites just to see what their stats had for the seniors.

Re the U20s
- as per posts, Eng starting pack was much heavier
- I don't have the impression the backs in this Fre lot were large. A quick glance at some of the key ones this comp and in the 6N

> Depoortere : 87kg
> Paul Costes 85kg
> Bielle-Biarrey (now with seniors) : 79kg
> Mael Moustin: 90kg
> Theo Attisogbe (whom I'd have incorrectly guessed as the largest!): 79kg
> Mathis Ferte is a midget (as is Carbonneau: it must be a Brive thing which is why they went down) and must weigh less than I do
> Emilien Gailleton (now with seniors) : 89kg
> Baptiste Jauneau: 81kg


Compare that with your Quins express merchant Cleaves who is touted at 95kg.

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:17 pm The weights they give are a nonsense though in my mind. Sale Sharks have Hill down at 112kg. Personally, I really struggle to believe that someone who's 201cm, in a physical position and with a decent size frame, is only 112kg. Your telling me he's lost 20kg?

Then the claim that CJ stander is the heaviest guy who played for ireland in 2021? Porter and Furlong must be heavier than him, sorry.

It's like in 2019, when apparently SA were down as being lighter than literally everyone. When you're playing 3 players over 2m tall in a pack, and then the likes of Vermuelan, there's no way that's the case.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:39 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:17 pm The weights they give are a nonsense though in my mind. Sale Sharks have Hill down at 112kg. Personally, I really struggle to believe that someone who's 201cm, in a physical position and with a decent size frame, is only 112kg. Your telling me he's lost 20kg?

Then the claim that CJ stander is the heaviest guy who played for ireland in 2021? Porter and Furlong must be heavier than him, sorry.

It's like in 2019, when apparently SA were down as being lighter than literally everyone. When you're playing 3 players over 2m tall in a pack, and then the likes of Vermuelan, there's no way that's the case.

I'm not in disagreement but remember this debate has repeatedly arisen because I get annoyed every time Anglo commentators trot out the lazy line (excuse) of "monster Fre packs" when, according to the data available to us, that has not been true for more than a decade. At best then, we don't know what the data is (or the likes of you and I believe it to be unreliable). Regardless, the commentators are stereotyping and obviously can't be arsed to look at the numbers they are presenting us on their own screens or dig deeper and question those numbers.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:01 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:39 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:17 pm The weights they give are a nonsense though in my mind. Sale Sharks have Hill down at 112kg. Personally, I really struggle to believe that someone who's 201cm, in a physical position and with a decent size frame, is only 112kg. Your telling me he's lost 20kg?

Then the claim that CJ stander is the heaviest guy who played for ireland in 2021? Porter and Furlong must be heavier than him, sorry.

It's like in 2019, when apparently SA were down as being lighter than literally everyone. When you're playing 3 players over 2m tall in a pack, and then the likes of Vermuelan, there's no way that's the case.

I'm not in disagreement but remember this debate has repeatedly arisen because I get annoyed every time Anglo commentators trot out the lazy line (excuse) of "monster Fre packs" when, according to the data available to us, that has not been true for more than a decade. At best then, we don't know what the data is (or the likes of you and I believe it to be unreliable). Regardless, the commentators are stereotyping and obviously can't be arsed to look at the numbers they are presenting us on their own screens or dig deeper and question those numbers.

When I hear monstrous pack, I tend to think more in terms of carrying ability, and scrummaging power, rather than sheer weight. Plenty of your players are absolute units when it comes to smashing it up effectively. I said on twitter that your u20s seem similar to the seniors, once they get a line break with a good carry, players just flood through in support and tend to turn the break into either massive meters gained, or a try. Really effective support play. NZ had a phase of similar play a while back, where after getting the initial linebreak, they were unstoppable due to the masses of support on hand.

England for instance, seem to have some monstrous carriers in the pack, but we fail to support the linebreaks effectively most the time, and end up getting turned over. We're so busy trying to play fast and wide, that we don't support the actual fast bit of the play, and then when it does come off, we kick it away anyway :(.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 10:12 am They use words like "monster" (as opposed to monstrous: a subtle but important diff), "huge", "giant" etc.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:27 am Actually the YouTube thing won't work in Spain. Shite. Vipbox I suppose

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:06 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 10:12 am They use words like "monster" (as opposed to monstrous: a subtle but important diff), "huge", "giant" etc.

Torq, are you French French or French Something Else?

I only ask because that shows a very strong understanding of a second language.

PCPhil wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 12:10 pm Wales Aus game is on S4C and even they cant get a decent stream

Deepsouth wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:38 pm This Welsh team

Deepsouth wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:38 pm This Welsh team