Kicking off in Israel

[Sandstorm]

Mate, colour is at least as intractable problem as religion.

Have you read The Sneetches by Dr Seuss (lets not raise the issue of possible anti semitism)? People just need something, anything to coalesce around

No, it's not. Religious zealotry trumps all other choices when it comes to refusing to take a stupid, racist head out of an arse!

[epwc]

No, it's not. Religious zealotry trumps all other choices when it comes to refusing to take a stupid, racist head out of an arse!

Not sure on that, look at the US

[Sandstorm]

No, it's not. Religious zealotry trumps all other choices when it comes to refusing to take a stupid, racist head out of an arse!

Not sure on that, look at the US

Of course it is. Christian Fundamentalists are leading that particular racist train in the USA. Just because Trump isn't a religious person, doesn't mean that the Republican Party and many of their rich backers aren't bible-thumping loons.

[inactionman]

The "extreme Israeli government" has nothing on their electorate. I've now spent about two weeks surfing the Israeli internet, total insane asylum, most crazy place on the internet I've ever seen. Polling confirms most of them are out to lunch.

For their own good, sanction them up to their eyeballs.

If I lived in a country whose immediate neighbours wanted their complete destruction (no France jokes svp) I'm not sure I'd be too level-headed.

That's not to say their views are fair or reasonable, or that they haven't visited certain things upon their own heads.

The more I see of this the more intractable it all feels.

Palestinians or the wider middle east?

Many of them, and more. They're not exactly local, but Malaysia doesn't recognise Israel, even if it doesn;t (hopefully) want Israel wiped off map.

[_Os_]

“We can support Israel and stand against the extremism of Israel’s government.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... e-solution

The "extreme Israeli government" has nothing on their electorate. I've now spent about two weeks surfing the Israeli internet, total insane asylum, most crazy place on the internet I've ever seen. Polling confirms most of them are out to lunch.

For their own good, sanction them up to their eyeballs.

If I lived in a country whose immediate neighbours wanted their complete destruction (no France jokes svp) I'm not sure I'd be too level-headed.

That's not to say their views are fair or reasonable, or that they haven't visited certain things upon their own heads.

The more I see of this the more intractable it all feels.

They're off the charts extreme. Open calls for genocide. I've thought about a series of posts nothing but quotes from Israelis (IDF officers, media, the unofficial Israeli anthem "may your village burn", etc) showing the average sort of opinion, maybe some polling results. The amount of armoured bulldozers I've seen going through random homes with a huge amount of likes, or comments like "kill them all, even the innocents". Much of it seems to have been around before 7th of October. But it would take effort and be a stream of hate speech. The roughly 20% who are sane basically say "this is madness I'm emigrating".

Western media should be sharing the actual views of Israelis though, very rare to get anything other than IDF statements and quotes from Israeli political leaders. "May your village burn" is some distance from "Western liberal democracy which must be protected". Blaming Netanyahu has become a crutch.

[Uncle fester]

If I lived in a country whose immediate neighbours wanted their complete destruction (no France jokes svp) I'm not sure I'd be too level-headed.

That's not to say their views are fair or reasonable, or that they haven't visited certain things upon their own heads.

The more I see of this the more intractable it all feels.

Palestinians or the wider middle east?

Many of them, and more. They're not exactly local, but Malaysia doesn't recognise Israel, even if it doesn;t (hopefully) want Israel wiped off map.

Yeah but this is a two way street here.
Israel is not behaving like a normal legitimate sovereign country.

[Calculon]

“We can support Israel and stand against the extremism of Israel’s government.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... e-solution

The "extreme Israeli government" has nothing on their electorate. I've now spent about two weeks surfing the Israeli internet, total insane asylum, most crazy place on the internet I've ever seen. Polling confirms most of them are out to lunch.

For their own good, sanction them up to their eyeballs.

maybe they're all a bunch of cunts that deserve each other. the Israelis that want to kill all Gazans, and the Gazans that elected Hamas and were celebrating in the streets after October 7th

[Calculon]

Spoiler

Show

Calculator is enjoying my posts, another one for him …

How is Israel going to strike back against Iran?

Israel has a policy of escalation dominance, they always one up their opponent in the belief the opponent backs down (but now Houthis/Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran … aren’t backing down). The expectation of some is they try to outdo Iran’s ballistic missile strike which broke Israeli/US missile defence, with something larger and more spectacular. There’s reasons that won’t happen though.

1st of April, Israel attacked an Iranian consulate in Damascus, killing an Iranian general. Iran responded through a drone and missile attack on 13th of April (the largest single drone attack in history), that was almost entirely intercepted. Israel didn’t respond through escalating, but by destroying an S-300 radar. It’s publicly known that Iran and the US held talks the month after through intermediaries, on avoiding further escalation, neither want escalation unlike Israel. The speculation is Iran and the US were indirectly talking during the incident (there’s an Oman backchannel). That’s why the US (and it was mostly the US) got an Iranian drone turkey shoot (unlike Iran’s second ballistic missile strike), because the Iranian response was given to the US beforehand. Israel was only allowed to hit an Iranian radar in response to a massive Iranian attack, they had to listen to the US and not escalate because without the US they cannot defend themselves against Iran.

Israel later went for Hezbollah (and other incidents, assassinating the Hamas political leader in Tehran at the end of July), which from Iran’s point of view was escalation. The response was Iran’s second ballistic missile strike. Iran’s military doctrine is built around three areas (its “forward defence” strategy): proxies, ballistic missiles, and advanced nuclear technology. The first two are obvious, the third not so much, Iran pursues a nuclear hedging strategy getting as close to having nukes as possible, improving their tech and capabilities, without ever getting nukes. The goal is having the advantages of having a nuke (because everyone knows they’re close/capable) without the downsides of having a nuke (more sanctions etc). It’s the opposite of Mad Mullahs rushing to nuke Israel they're often presented as, and something closer to coldly rational people mastering uranium enrichment and ballistic missile technology then letting others work out the rest.

When Trump withdrew from the (Obama era) US nuclear deal with Iran (JCPOA) in 2018 and adopted a maximum pressure posture, with the probable goal of regime change (the Saudis supported the Trump plan too, which heightened that perception for Iran). That gave Iran's nuclear programme a lot of momentum inside the regime, and enrichment was boosted. What is happening now is larger than what caused that change in threat perception. Hezbollah being attacked followed up by a massive airstrike on Iran, would radically alter Iranian calculations.

The hard part of making a bomb is fissile material, Iran now has a stockpile of 60% enriched Uranium which isn’t far from the 90% weapons grade. Bliken has stated Iran could now produce weapons grade material in a week. Iran also started tooling for producing Uranium metal (part of the weaponisation process), when they started boosting their enrichment. Any change in the threat perception from the point of view of Iran potentially pushes them towards nukes: If the Saudis started a suspicious nuclear programme (threatens the nuclear advantage part of their strategy), if Iranian proxies were massively weakened (threatens the proxies part of their strategy), if there were strikes on their nuclear facilities (threatens the nuclear advantage part of their strategy). Anything that looks like a possible threat to the Iranian regime could trigger nukes.

Because of Iran’s human capital, industrial capacity, how advanced their nuclear programme is, and their main allies all having nukes. It’s a very short journey for Iran to actually build weaponised nukes, estimates are about 6 months most of which could be conducted in secret. Problem is, there’s then potential for a chain of proliferation. The Saudis will not accept Iran having advanced ballistic missiles and nukes. The Turks will not accept not having nukes if Russia/Israel/Iran/Saudis all do, maybe Egypt won’t either. The US isn’t going to sanction Turkey/Saudi/Egypt like it does NK or Iran, for one thing part of the point in making Egypt/Saudi/Jordan/Lebanon allies is bribing them not to attack Israel. So other US allies potentially then seek nukes to improve their security position: Taiwan/South Korea/Japan/Poland. It starts looking a bit out of control.

Which all means there’s a strong chance Israel’s attack is limited to some military targets Iran can shrug off, similar to how Iran’s targets in Israel were of a military nature. The US has almost certainly been telling Israel not to go full Gaza genocide on Iran like it already has on Lebanon (what did Netanyahu say "I will turn Beirut into Gaza" or some shit?). If so that’s twice Israeli escalation dominance didn’t happen against Iran, twice they backed down after a massive attack. If Israel doesn’t do that and goes full Netanyahu instead, it has to deal with a potential Iranian retaliation which is something along the lines of a nuclear test. Then long term, a nuclear armed Iran that has already defeated Israeli/US missile defence once and has enough missiles for a saturation attack. And after that a significantly more dangerous ME the US has little hope of policing.

I'm sure one of us will come back to it. Lots of big talk from Israel about hitting nuclear facilities, oil infrastructure, the Iranian regime. Post up your call before the strike.

Calculator, if you come at me do not miss!

Israel’s response to Iran launching a MRBM strike on Israel (biggest in history?), breaking Israeli/US missile defence (20% visually confirmed getting through is a fail, if they were nukes that’s Israel wiped off the map about x5 in the first wave) ... was one notch above nothing. Big talk about targeting: leadership, nuclear, oil, infrastructure. It was a very limited strike on military targets.

On the face of it I was right, chance I was wrong.

Israeli media says hits on 4 or 5 S-300 radars, claiming that’s Iran’s air defence gone. ISW (Institute for the Study of War) says they hit 3 to 4 S-300 batteries. Iran probably have/had 8 S-300 batteries, 4 of the most modern and 4 older. They also acquired an unknown small amount of S-400 in August, unknown if they’re operational. As well as Iranian reversed engineered S-300 copies (10+ batteries). On what the IDF are claiming they didn’t destroy Iran's air defence network.

Missile propellent factories and drone production facilities were also hit. ISW says this covered 20 locations. Anything critical for Iran is in bunkers under mountains like a James Bond villain hideout, unreachable to conventional weapons.

There’s claims which cannot be confirmed (Western in origin), that Israel/US planned a 10-12 hour bombing campaign. This was cut to 3 hours when Israeli/US SEAD failed. Only evidence I’ve seen for that was IDF statements early on that it would last “several hours” which would’ve meant something much larger than happened. Iranian sources claim decoys and other tactics worked, no evidence of that.

It’s possible Israel had more objectives they wanted to hit, but couldn’t. About 100 jets basically the entire Israeli air force and US support (tankers/intelligence). Seems like a large force for not much.

Which leaves two possibilities: My pre-strike analysis was extremely accurate, Iran could call the bluff of Israel/US without much consequence. Or my pre-strike analysis wasn’t entirely correct, Israel did restrict their strike to military targets (they announced that when the strike begun) but it was intended to be larger and failed.

Whatever the case, not really seeing huge Israeli dominance in these Israel-Iran exchanges. The opposite if anything.

Israel will keep trying to provoke a conflict against Iran, which they’re completely unable to fight without the US. They’ve always done everything possible to eliminate regional rivals, regional “mowing the lawn”. Israel’s status is in being the dominant regional military power. Iran’s best move is no direct retaliation, use proxies to keep conflicts away from their borders.

… Israel knows its attempt to escalate against Iran is failing. It’s upping airstrikes on Syria (including bombing upmarket areas of Damascus) over 150 airstrikes now and the IDF is increasing ground defences in Golan. Israel seems to want to fight Syria too.

you seem positively giddy. I’ve been busy so haven’t followed the news closely. It seemed to be a limited strike, as was widely predicted, against mostly air defences and one or two missile facilities. Also, Israel forewarned Iran before the strike. Hopefully in all this Iran ends up sending fewer drones and missiles to Russia.

[_Os_]

“We can support Israel and stand against the extremism of Israel’s government.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... e-solution

The "extreme Israeli government" has nothing on their electorate. I've now spent about two weeks surfing the Israeli internet, total insane asylum, most crazy place on the internet I've ever seen. Polling confirms most of them are out to lunch.

For their own good, sanction them up to their eyeballs.

maybe they're all a bunch of cunts that deserve each other. the Israelis that want to kill all Gazans, and the Gazans that elected Hamas and were celebrating in the streets after October 7th

I'm sure Gaza was a model of democracy. Just like I'm sure all 2m of them were celebrating and thus deserve death. All nonsense of course but you know that, Calculator.

Netanyahu and friends preferred Hamas over the PA because Hamas strengthens the Israeli right, they don't support the PA and didn't give it control over Gaza because it would weaken the Israeli right and make the two state solution more likely. The PA supports a two state solution and rejects violence, Netanyahu has weakened it because of that. Netanyahu still doesn't want PA control over Gaza, he wants it to become a concentration camp ruled by CIA mercenaries (no, I'm not making this up). Meanwhile violence is increasing on the West Bank, settlers going crazy, Palestinian militants unhappy with a PA that has been given little power.

Putting two groups together, one group having a nice life and full rights, the other group a shit life and no rights, means very bad things happen. I don't agree either side deserves that.

There's a way out, but only those with power can do it and the Israeli electorate looks nowhere close to where it needs to be. Funny how white South Africans are often called dumb, not so dumb that we couldn't work out that apartheid was untenable and long term survival couldn't be secured through violence.

[epwc]

Funny how white South Africans are often called dumb, not so dumb that we couldn't work out that apartheid was untenable and long term survival couldn't be secured through violence.

This is the exact thing that Israel should be thinking about, none of their actions in this conflict will help them in the longer term.

[Calculon]

The "extreme Israeli government" has nothing on their electorate. I've now spent about two weeks surfing the Israeli internet, total insane asylum, most crazy place on the internet I've ever seen. Polling confirms most of them are out to lunch.

For their own good, sanction them up to their eyeballs.

maybe they're all a bunch of cunts that deserve each other. the Israelis that want to kill all Gazans, and the Gazans that elected Hamas and were celebrating in the streets after October 7th

I'm sure Gaza was a model of democracy. Just like I'm sure all 2m of them were celebrating and thus deserve death. All nonsense of course but you know that, Calculator.

Netanyahu and friends preferred Hamas over the PA because Hamas strengthens the Israeli right, they don't support the PA and didn't give it control over Gaza because it would weaken the Israeli right and make the two state solution more likely. The PA supports a two state solution and rejects violence, Netanyahu has weakened it because of that. Netanyahu still doesn't want PA control over Gaza, he wants it to become a concentration camp ruled by CIA mercenaries (no, I'm not making this up). Meanwhile violence is increasing on the West Bank, settlers going crazy, Palestinian militants unhappy with a PA that has been given little power.

Putting two groups together, one group having a nice life and full rights, the other group a shit life and no rights, means very bad things happen. I don't agree either side deserves that.

There's a way out, but only those with power can do it and the Israeli electorate looks nowhere close to where it needs to be. Funny how white South Africans are often called dumb, not so dumb that we couldn't work out that apartheid was untenable and long term survival couldn't be secured through violence.

wasn’t it Sharon who was in charge at the time of the israeli withdrawal from gaza, and when hamas was elected? pretty sure Israel actually opposed the elections because hamas was very popular but america insisted the elections should go ahead. anyway, it seems gazan society have been radicalised for a long time and maybe Israelis society is now too. The PA is corrupt, incompetent and autocratic, Palestinians have been ill served by there leaders since forever. Maybe they should have cut their losses and made peace in 1948, or maybe you are right and they are playing the long game and will get it all... eventually

[_Os_]

maybe they're all a bunch of cunts that deserve each other. the Israelis that want to kill all Gazans, and the Gazans that elected Hamas and were celebrating in the streets after October 7th

I'm sure Gaza was a model of democracy. Just like I'm sure all 2m of them were celebrating and thus deserve death. All nonsense of course but you know that, Calculator.

Netanyahu and friends preferred Hamas over the PA because Hamas strengthens the Israeli right, they don't support the PA and didn't give it control over Gaza because it would weaken the Israeli right and make the two state solution more likely. The PA supports a two state solution and rejects violence, Netanyahu has weakened it because of that. Netanyahu still doesn't want PA control over Gaza, he wants it to become a concentration camp ruled by CIA mercenaries (no, I'm not making this up). Meanwhile violence is increasing on the West Bank, settlers going crazy, Palestinian militants unhappy with a PA that has been given little power.

Putting two groups together, one group having a nice life and full rights, the other group a shit life and no rights, means very bad things happen. I don't agree either side deserves that.

There's a way out, but only those with power can do it and the Israeli electorate looks nowhere close to where it needs to be. Funny how white South Africans are often called dumb, not so dumb that we couldn't work out that apartheid was untenable and long term survival couldn't be secured through violence.

wasn’t it Sharon who was in charge at the time of the israeli withdrawal from gaza, and when hamas was elected? pretty sure Israel actually opposed the elections because hamas was very popular but america insisted the elections should go ahead. anyway, it seems gazan society have been radicalised for a long time and maybe Israelis society is now too. The PA is corrupt, incompetent and autocratic, Palestinians have been ill served by there leaders since forever.

An article from an Israeli source on how the Israeli state supported Hamas:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years ... our-faces/

Maybe they should have cut their losses and made peace in 1948, or maybe you are right and they are playing the long game and will get it all... eventually

Israel is a creation of the British Empire which was then supported by the Americans. More or less the world's dominant power has always supported them (yes, I know not so much early on) and that's where their power comes from. The region includes the Turks, Persians, Egyptians, Arabs, none of those are historic non-entities. In our time Turkey/Iran/Egypt/Saudi all have a lot of potential. To me it looks like the US doesn't back Israel without limits against Iran (maybe that'll change after the election), the equation will be the same if the situation ever comes with any of the others.

There's intense rivalry between Turks/Persians/Egyptians/Saudis, they've all just seen the Persians put one over Israel/US. None of them are going to want Iran to eat all the cake if they can have some too. US may not even care so much, they're energy independent and don't rely on Suez, they don't need to be involved in the ME.

The danger for Israel will come when it has no super power support, if we're talking forever that eventually happens. At the moment they're in the region but not part of it. They become part of it by being on good terms with neighbours.

Oom Paul's diary is online somewhere have a read of it, he was pledging allegiance to various chiefs and fighting for them. Louis Botha was the same, when he became SA's first PM the first thing he did was release King Dinizulu who had been imprisoned by the British for his part in a Zulu rebellion, Botha and Dinizulu were friends and had both fought on the same side in Zulu civil wars (Botha likely pledged his allegiance to him and was duty bound to release him). Sobantu township outside PMB was named after John Colenso (Sobantu was his isiZulu name). Joe Slovo squatter camp in Cape Town is obviously named after Slovo. I could go on and on.

Which Palestinian refugee camps are named after Zionists? It sounds like a silly thing to ask. But from the perspective of a white South African that knows some of our history, is evidence they haven't understood how they become part of the region long term. If all the Palestinians are killed or displaced they've basically fucked themselves. They're then just a small group of isolated people surrounded by historic giants.

[epwc]

Just to add, NO muslim country supports Iran, so I think they'd all be happy to see the place fucked over.

[Sandstorm]

Just to add, NO Muslim country supports Iran, so I think they'd all be happy to see the place fucked over.

No Arab country. Indonesia and Iran are still pretty cordial.

[Slick]

Just to add, NO muslim country supports Iran, so I think they'd all be happy to see the place fucked over.

That's just not true.

I wouldn't like to see it fucked over either, amazing country and people.

[epwc]

I wouldn't like to see it fucked over either, amazing country and people.

I absolutely don't want to see it fucked over, although I'd love the ayatollahs to get fucked, as you say lovely people and I would love one day to go there BUT there really aren't many muslim (most are Sunni) countries that support Iran (Shia)

[Slick]

I wouldn't like to see it fucked over either, amazing country and people.

I absolutely don't want to see it fucked over, although I'd love the ayatollahs to get fucked, as you say lovely people and I would love one day to go there BUT there really aren't many muslim (most are Sunni) countries that support Iran (Shia)

Not many, and they are mostly now shite, like Iraq, Syria, Yemen. But there are also sizeable Shia populations in a lot of countries which wouldn't want to go down that path. There has also been a lot of backroom diplomacy going on in the last few years between Iran and other Muslim countries in the region that mean it's not quite so clear cut as it used to be.

[_Os_]

you seem positively giddy. I’ve been busy so haven’t followed the news closely. It seemed to be a limited strike, as was widely predicted, against mostly air defences and one or two missile facilities. Also, Israel forewarned Iran before the strike. Hopefully in all this Iran ends up sending fewer drones and missiles to Russia.

Missed this. A limited strike was widely predicted? Nope. The former Israeli PM Bennett was all about destroying Iran's nuclear sites, he wasn't alone. Everyone was talking about Israel being able to attack anything it wanted, so much so the US had to publicly say "no attacks on nuclear or oil". Israeli media is now talking about "all their air defences are down, lets attack their nuclear sites". They keep going back to the notion Iran's entire nuclear programme can be ended through airstrikes, which doesn't seem true. Too advanced, too protected, trying to end it probably means Iran moves from threshold to testing a nuke.

I'll wait until a bit after the election. But if we're mid-2025 and there's no large strike on Iran, then the US is treating Iran like it has nukes. Which means no/weak direct attacks on Iran. If that comes to pass, we'll get regular anti-Iran propaganda, internal revolt would then become the only way to topple them. Western backed dictatorships in the region (Saudis/Gulf states) are worse than Iran on many issues, so not sure that propaganda will work on Iranians.

[Calculon]

Well i "predicted" it, because everything i read/watched said it was the likely course of action, not least because, as you say, America publicly warned Israel not to attack oil and nuclear, and also "leaked" those documents. So Israel realised that attacking kharg oil terminal and sending the world oil price sky rocketing on the eve of US elections might not be a great idea, they're also rather busy in Lebanon and Gaza so could do with focussing on that.

[Guy Smiley]

[_Os_]

Well i "predicted" it, because everything i read/watched said it was the likely course of action, not least because, as you say, America publicly warned Israel not to attack oil and nuclear, and also "leaked" those documents. So Israel realised that attacking kharg oil terminal and sending the world oil price sky rocketing on the eve of US elections might not be a great idea, they're also rather busy in Lebanon and Gaza so could do with focussing on that.

You weren't at all expecting Iran's leadership to be killed at any time? Israel hasn't realised anything, read only their media for a few weeks, they're still talking about striking Iran's nuclear facilities. Israel doesn't care about the oil facilities, that's what Western commentary/analysis focuses on, its not what Israelis talk about. As I've posted (at length!), it's very likely attacking nuclear facilities pushes Iran into a more dangerous position. Israel were told what to do by the US, without whom they cannot attack Iran in any significant way other than using their own nukes.

They don't want any focus on Gaza, that's a lot of what all this escalation is about. They want the focus away from Gaza, that's why they've banned media and aid organisations from there. South Africa has submitted its report, 750 pages and 4000 pages of annexes. Your Israeli friends in the comment sections of their media were very complementary about us, apparently we're not a democracy anymore and whites are being killed in a genocide.

[Calculon]

Well i "predicted" it, because everything i read/watched said it was the likely course of action, not least because, as you say, America publicly warned Israel not to attack oil and nuclear, and also "leaked" those documents. So Israel realised that attacking kharg oil terminal and sending the world oil price sky rocketing on the eve of US elections might not be a great idea, they're also rather busy in Lebanon and Gaza so could do with focussing on that.

You weren't at all expecting Iran's leadership to be killed at any time? Israel hasn't realised anything, read only their media for a few weeks, they're still talking about striking Iran's nuclear facilities. Israel doesn't care about the oil facilities, that's what Western commentary/analysis focuses on, its not what Israelis talk about. As I've posted (at length!), it's very likely attacking nuclear facilities pushes Iran into a more dangerous position. Israel were told what to do by the US, without whom they cannot attack Iran in any significant way other than using their own nukes.

They don't want any focus on Gaza, that's a lot of what all this escalation is about. They want the focus away from Gaza, that's why they've banned media and aid organisations from there. South Africa has submitted its report, 750 pages and 4000 pages of annexes. Your Israeli friends in the comment sections of their media were very complementary about us, apparently we're not a democracy anymore and whites are being killed in a genocide.

no, i said Iran's leadership was the least likely target, ie less likely than oil and nuclear. and i said israel's response might be tempered, said this just after Iran's attack and long before the US warned israel not to attack oil and nuclear.

[Sandstorm]

Get it over with, you two.

[Guy Smiley]

Various nations are slowly but surely becoming more straightfoward in their criticsm or condemnation of Israel's actions... including the Right dominated Italian government...




I wonder how long this atrocity will be allowed to continue before the realisation dawns that 'oh shit, we're the bad guys' for those countries still professing support for the actions being carried out in the name of 'self defense'.

I wonder how reasonable it would be to ask Israel to clearly define the border it so stridently claims to defend... and how reasonable it would be to also admit that Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians (so far) also have that same right for self defense.

[epwc]

I wonder how reasonable it would be to ask Israel to clearly define the border it so stridently claims to defend... and how reasonable it would be to also admit that Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians (so far) also have that same right for self defense.

Disgusting anti semitism. Israel doesn’t need to justify itself…

[Slick]

Various nations are slowly but surely becoming more straightfoward in their criticsm or condemnation of Israel's actions... including the Right dominated Italian government...




I wonder how long this atrocity will be allowed to continue before the realisation dawns that 'oh shit, we're the bad guys' for those countries still professing support for the actions being carried out in the name of 'self defense'.

I wonder how reasonable it would be to ask Israel to clearly define the border it so stridently claims to defend... and how reasonable it would be to also admit that Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians (so far) also have that same right for self defense.

There is a definite change in tone around the world. Israel is a rogue state now and this will take decades to untangle

[Uncle fester]

Last time IDF tried land operations in Lebanon, it didn't go that well for them so I'm a little surprised they are thinking of it now.

Bibi is under time pressure.

He knows that he has free reign right now, but on Nov 6th Kamala will cut off his munition & spares supplies, & he'll his ethnic cleansing will come to an abrupt end.

Is that really going to happen?
I think much of the West will turn against right-wing Israel and the last guys standing on the wrong side of history will be US, UK (as they were for SA) and Germany.

Said this a while back.

[bok_viking]

Various nations are slowly but surely becoming more straightfoward in their criticsm or condemnation of Israel's actions... including the Right dominated Italian government...




I wonder how long this atrocity will be allowed to continue before the realisation dawns that 'oh shit, we're the bad guys' for those countries still professing support for the actions being carried out in the name of 'self defense'.

I wonder how reasonable it would be to ask Israel to clearly define the border it so stridently claims to defend... and how reasonable it would be to also admit that Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians (so far) also have that same right for self defense.

There is a definite change in tone around the world. Israel is a rogue state now and this will take decades to untangle

It is tough in this day and age to continue to claim that you are the good guys and support what is best for the world when reality shows otherwise. With the advent of social media and a lot of independent news sources that do not get their news from organizations like Reuters ( who have been used by the CIA as a propaganda tool to make the USA look like the good guys in everything they do according to some leaked classified documents) the real stories very quickly start to make the rounds. Plus there are more and more of the "lesser" countries around the world that are speaking up against the USA and their vassals instead of bowing their heads and saying "Yes Sir, you are right"

[Sandstorm]

It is tough in this day and age to continue to claim that you are the good guys and support what is best for the world when reality shows otherwise. With the advent of social media and a lot of independent news sources that do not get their news from organizations like Reuters ( who have been used by the CIA as a propaganda tool to make the USA look like the good guys in everything they do according to some leaked classified documents) the real stories very quickly start to make the rounds. Plus there are more and more of the "lesser" countries around the world that are speaking up against the USA and their vassals instead of bowing their heads and saying "Yes Sir, you are right"

Indeed. These days more and more countries are calling foul on America's Foreign policies and also not being afraid of economic repercussions, as another Great Empire fades out.

[Guy Smiley]

https://theshot.net.au/uncategorized/no ... sing-gaza/

No one can say they didn’t know: Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza

“Israel has bombed Palestinians to death, maimed them, starved them, and is now ridding them of their biggest lifeline of aid. Piece by piece, Israel is systemically dismantling Gaza as a land that is autonomous and liveable for Palestinians… We are in no doubt that Israel and its allies are fully aware of the terrible consequences that this decision will have on Palestinians living in Gaza, many of whom are already starving. We join others in warning again that this will result in more death, more suffering, and more forced displacement of people from their besieged homeland. It is impossible not to believe that this is their aim.”

That is not a rogue nation or a terrorist proxy or even a Hamas leader disguised as a hospital. That is Oxfam International.

This has never been a war. It is a slaughter. For territory. And this is such an obvious truth that an entire media ecosystem and lobbying network co-exist to make you doubt your own eyes. Heavy from livestreamed infanticide and weary from all the bullshit – all the “it’s complicated”s and the “Israel has a right to defend itself” – you are invited to unsee what you have seen.

[epwc]

How long till Trump let’s Netanyahu annex Northern Gaza?

[Uncle fester]

Israeli minister for defence sacked. He was a relative moderate by their cabinet standards.

[Kiwias]

How long till Trump let’s Netanyahu annex Northern Gaza?

Followed by the West Bank?

[dpedin]

Israeli minister for defence sacked. He was a relative moderate by their cabinet standards.

Interesting timing - coinciding with US elections and probably agreed in advance with Trump?

[robmatic]

How long till Trump let’s Netanyahu annex Northern Gaza?

I imagine it will be an even freer rein for Netanyahu now so not too long. And more chance of things kicking off with Iran.

Mission accomplished for those American leftists who were campaigning against the Democrats due to them supporting Israel too much.

[JM2K6]

You mission accomplished for the democrats who valued sucking up to Israel above the lives of Palestinians and the views of the people whose votes they took for granted

[Rhubarb & Custard]

meh, anyone whose voted was taken for granted and still didn't vote for Harris anyway can kindly go jump off a bridge. though there is given how worthless they are they'd perhaps only go for a low bridge.

[epwc]

God knows how many amputees there already are:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c624zz6m1kvo

[Tilly Orifice]

meh, anyone whose voted was taken for granted and still didn't vote for Harris anyway can kindly go jump off a bridge. though there is given how worthless they are they'd perhaps only go for a low bridge.

You can't arm and fund a genocide then go, "Ha ha, you've got to vote for me because the other guy would be even worse". It might be true, but you're dealing with human beings , you know? it'll never fly.

[epwc]

I don’t think politicians in the us or uk are viewing Palestinians as real human beings