The Scottish Politics Thread

[Biffer]

Totally agree, I can't for the life of me understand why that is a such a divisive issue. Literally no one is going to call off their holiday to Edinburgh for a £5/6 local tax.

A quick Google tells me that up to 3 million people come to Edinburgh for the festival, for a fiver that would bring in £15M to start with. The Old Town is back to being hoaching all year round now, by the looks of things, charging a fiver over the course of a year would go a very long way.

I'm not quite sure if the numbers are right - quick google says 3 million for the festival and 4 million for the year in total, which doesn't seem quite right. Proposed tax is only £2 per night, I'd have it higher tbh, but just getting it in in the first place is the important thing. Assume they stay an average of three nights each and it's 3 x 4 million x £2 = £24million. A quarter of that being put into funding the Edinburgh festivals, a quarter to other big events and the rest on funding / repairing infrastructure works for me.

[Blackmac]

Totally agree, I can't for the life of me understand why that is a such a divisive issue. Literally no one is going to call off their holiday to Edinburgh for a £5/6 local tax.

A quick Google tells me that up to 3 million people come to Edinburgh for the festival, for a fiver that would bring in £15M to start with. The Old Town is back to being hoaching all year round now, by the looks of things, charging a fiver over the course of a year would go a very long way.

I'm not quite sure if the numbers are right - quick google says 3 million for the festival and 4 million for the year in total, which doesn't seem quite right. Proposed tax is only £2 per night, I'd have it higher tbh, but just getting it in in the first place is the important thing. Assume they stay an average of three nights each and it's 3 x 4 million x £2 = £24million. A quarter of that being put into funding the Edinburgh festivals, a quarter to other big events and the rest on funding / repairing infrastructure works for me.

It's incredible how reluctant they seem to be to introduce it. Just about every other major city seems to have some sort of tourist tax nowadays and it barely registers when you look at the other costs involved.

[Biffer]

A quick Google tells me that up to 3 million people come to Edinburgh for the festival, for a fiver that would bring in £15M to start with. The Old Town is back to being hoaching all year round now, by the looks of things, charging a fiver over the course of a year would go a very long way.

I'm not quite sure if the numbers are right - quick google says 3 million for the festival and 4 million for the year in total, which doesn't seem quite right. Proposed tax is only £2 per night, I'd have it higher tbh, but just getting it in in the first place is the important thing. Assume they stay an average of three nights each and it's 3 x 4 million x £2 = £24million. A quarter of that being put into funding the Edinburgh festivals, a quarter to other big events and the rest on funding / repairing infrastructure works for me.

It's incredible how reluctant they seem to be to introduce it. Just about every other major city seems to have some sort of tourist tax nowadays and it barely registers when you look at the other costs involved.

It’s a very clear demonstration of governments in the uk being in thrall to business in a way that most of Europe isn’t. Also of a detachment from reality, in this case the idea that £2 a night makes the slightest bit of difference to someone paying £150 a night for a hotel for a week.

[Blackmac]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67254855

When you look at the furore over Boris Johnson's Whatsapp message you have to wonder why this lot think they could run the country with all the accountability of a golf club committee. PSOS and COPFS have treated Whatsapp and text messages in relation to cases or policy decisions as potentially disclosable for about the last 10 years, so it is astonishing that this shower haven't the slightest clue. Either that or they are feigning stupidity, because someone deleting messages on a daily basis certainly gives the impression of preemptively trying to obstruct any subsequent enquiry.

[tc27]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67254855

When you look at the furore over Boris Johnson's Whatsapp message you have to wonder why this lot think they could run the country with all the accountability of a golf club committee. PSOS and COPFS have treated Whatsapp and text messages in relation to cases or policy decisions as potentially disclosable for about the last 10 years, so it is astonishing that this shower haven't the slightest clue. Either that or they are feigning stupidity, because someone deleting messages on a daily basis certainly gives the impression of preemptively trying to obstruct any subsequent enquiry.

[Slick]

I really do hope history judges her as badly as it should.

[Big D]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67254855

When you look at the furore over Boris Johnson's Whatsapp message you have to wonder why this lot think they could run the country with all the accountability of a golf club committee. PSOS and COPFS have treated Whatsapp and text messages in relation to cases or policy decisions as potentially disclosable for about the last 10 years, so it is astonishing that this shower haven't the slightest clue. Either that or they are feigning stupidity, because someone deleting messages on a daily basis certainly gives the impression of preemptively trying to obstruct any subsequent enquiry.

Will make hee haw difference to how she is viewed.

[Slick]

Nice to see Humza throwing Nicola under the bus at last, "I've kept my messages, can't speak for her" - although he did leave himself some wiggle room with his reply not specifying which messages he's kept.

[Tichtheid]

From The Independent

former first minister Nicola Sturgeon, as well as National Clinical Director Professor Jason Leitch and Chief Medical Officer Dr Sir Gregor Smith .... deleted their messages.

What on earth were they covering up?

I thought that aside from the SNP/Indy movement haters the Scottish Gov were considered to be handling the pandemic as well as a government could?

[Slick]

From The Independent

former first minister Nicola Sturgeon, as well as National Clinical Director Professor Jason Leitch and Chief Medical Officer Dr Sir Gregor Smith .... deleted their messages.

What on earth were they covering up?

I thought that aside from the SNP/Indy movement haters the Scottish Gov were considered to be handling the pandemic as well as a government could?

To be honest I think at the time that was the general feeling across the country, I certainly thought she was doing well. From what I can pick up it seems that the reality was that it was just as much as a shitshow and that quite a few bad decisions were made on a purely political basis rather than what was necessarily best.

Regarding the Whatsapps, there is that video doing the rounds of her saying in reply to a question that she would most certainly be keeping her whatsapps, but it now appears she was deleting them even then. When you add this to her apparently terrible memory around the Salmond case, and the fact she managed to keep relevant whatsapp messages for that enquiry, it looks fucking terrible.

[inactionman]

From The Independent

former first minister Nicola Sturgeon, as well as National Clinical Director Professor Jason Leitch and Chief Medical Officer Dr Sir Gregor Smith .... deleted their messages.

What on earth were they covering up?

I thought that aside from the SNP/Indy movement haters the Scottish Gov were considered to be handling the pandemic as well as a government could?

The carehomes thing wasn't great, for example.

Not that I'm necessarily criticising, the whole thing was clearly a nightmare to administrate with little notice and little precedent, but there are certainly lessons to learn from it. If the decision-making evidence is there.

[Biffer]

From The Independent

former first minister Nicola Sturgeon, as well as National Clinical Director Professor Jason Leitch and Chief Medical Officer Dr Sir Gregor Smith .... deleted their messages.

What on earth were they covering up?

I thought that aside from the SNP/Indy movement haters the Scottish Gov were considered to be handling the pandemic as well as a government could?

The carehomes thing wasn't great, for example.

Not that I'm necessarily criticising, the whole thing was clearly a nightmare to administrate with little notice and little precedent, but there are certainly lessons to learn from it. If the decision-making evidence is there.

The carehomes thing is understandable, but very obviously wrong in hindsight. Common practice is to keep elderly people in hospital for as little time as possible as that's where they pick up more infections. Extending that to covid initially is an understandable immediate reaction, but in the end massively misguided. If you'd kept them in hospital there would probably be a similar aspect of the inquiry asking why they were left in hospital. It's all part of the lack of preparedness though.

[Blackmac]

I actually have huge amounts of sympathy for all politicians involved over the pandemic. They were placed in a horrific situation, and whilst mistakes were inevitably made I believe that they were made with the best of intentions. Deleting their Whatapps on an industrial scale is just another sign of a government that struggles to accept responsibility or be held accountable for anything.
I laughed at Humza struggling to know what the script was, on one hand saying it was government policy to delete the messages and then smugly claiming that he himself had kept all his, presumably in breach of the policy.
It was also funny as fuck when Humza insinuated to the journo that everyone regularly deletes their messages and the journo replied, no, no one ever does that.

[Blackmac]

From The Independent



What on earth were they covering up?

I thought that aside from the SNP/Indy movement haters the Scottish Gov were considered to be handling the pandemic as well as a government could?

The carehomes thing wasn't great, for example.

Not that I'm necessarily criticising, the whole thing was clearly a nightmare to administrate with little notice and little precedent, but there are certainly lessons to learn from it. If the decision-making evidence is there.

The carehomes thing is understandable, but very obviously wrong in hindsight. Common practice is to keep elderly people in hospital for as little time as possible as that's where they pick up more infections. Extending that to covid initially is an understandable immediate reaction, but in the end massively misguided. If you'd kept them in hospital there would probably be a similar aspect of the inquiry asking why they were left in hospital. It's all part of the lack of preparedness though.

You are bang on in your last sentence. Impossible to fight the Hindsight Brigade.

[inactionman]

I've never deleted a whatsapp message, but then I've not tried to run a government department by WhatsApp.

No-one else think using whatsapp in a professional setting is a bit odd?

[Blackmac]

I've never deleted a whatsapp message, but then I've not tried to run a government department by WhatsApp.

No-one else think using whatsapp in a professional setting is a bit odd?

It's actually incredibly safe. Total end to end encryption. Even law enforcement can't get into it.

[inactionman]

I've never deleted a whatsapp message, but then I've not tried to run a government department by WhatsApp.

No-one else think using whatsapp in a professional setting is a bit odd?

It's actually incredibly safe. Total end to end encryption. Even law enforcement can't get into it.

The safety isn't really the issue - it's the lack of transparency.

Not many enterprises want a completely invisible, undocumentable communication path - I've never, ever seen it used in any enterprise in any even semi-formal capacity outside of presenting a channel to customers. Of course, I frequently whatsapp colleagues, but no way would anything of any importance to work go through it.

I don't, however, need to cover my arse or have unattributable conversations.

[Slick]

The carehomes thing wasn't great, for example.

Not that I'm necessarily criticising, the whole thing was clearly a nightmare to administrate with little notice and little precedent, but there are certainly lessons to learn from it. If the decision-making evidence is there.

The carehomes thing is understandable, but very obviously wrong in hindsight. Common practice is to keep elderly people in hospital for as little time as possible as that's where they pick up more infections. Extending that to covid initially is an understandable immediate reaction, but in the end massively misguided. If you'd kept them in hospital there would probably be a similar aspect of the inquiry asking why they were left in hospital. It's all part of the lack of preparedness though.

You are bang on in your last sentence. Impossible to fight the Hindsight Brigade.

Agree with all this, I find on hard to actually blame anyone in the unprecedented situation, no one went out to fuck it up.

[C T]

I've never deleted a whatsapp message, but then I've not tried to run a government department by WhatsApp.

No-one else think using whatsapp in a professional setting is a bit odd?

It's actually incredibly safe. Total end to end encryption. Even law enforcement can't get into it.

The safety isn't really the issue - it's the lack of transparency.

Not many enterprises want a completely invisible, undocumentable communication path - I've never, ever seen it used in any enterprise in any even semi-formal capacity outside of presenting a channel to customers. Of course, I frequently whatsapp colleagues, but no way would anything of any importance to work go through it.

I don't, however, need to cover my arse or have unattributable conversations.

That's where my head is at, regarding the lack of transparency. it instantly makes me think they're covering something up.

Really quite disappointed in the mass deletion of WhatsApp messages. Naive of me sure, but I thought better of them.

[Big D]

From The Independent

former first minister Nicola Sturgeon, as well as National Clinical Director Professor Jason Leitch and Chief Medical Officer Dr Sir Gregor Smith .... deleted their messages.

What on earth were they covering up?

I thought that aside from the SNP/Indy movement haters the Scottish Gov were considered to be handling the pandemic as well as a government could?

From memory there were 4 camps.

1. The Nicola can walk on water brigade.
2. Those that thought things were going well.
3. Those who would argue that appearing to be marginally better than London isn't the same as doing well.
4. The indy/snp hating lot who wouldnt give credit where it it was due even if it was due.

[Slick]

From The Independent

former first minister Nicola Sturgeon, as well as National Clinical Director Professor Jason Leitch and Chief Medical Officer Dr Sir Gregor Smith .... deleted their messages.

What on earth were they covering up?

I thought that aside from the SNP/Indy movement haters the Scottish Gov were considered to be handling the pandemic as well as a government could?

From memory there were 4 camps.

1. The Nicola can walk on water brigade.
2. Those that thought things were going well.
3. Those who would argue that appearing to be marginally better than London isn't the same as doing well.
4. The indy/snp hating lot who wouldnt give credit where it it was due even if it was due.

2 1/2

[shaggy]

I've never deleted a whatsapp message, but then I've not tried to run a government department by WhatsApp.

No-one else think using whatsapp in a professional setting is a bit odd?

It's actually incredibly safe. Total end to end encryption. Even law enforcement can't get into it.

The safety isn't really the issue - it's the lack of transparency.

Not many enterprises want a completely invisible, undocumentable communication path - I've never, ever seen it used in any enterprise in any even semi-formal capacity outside of presenting a channel to customers. Of course, I frequently whatsapp colleagues, but no way would anything of any importance to work go through it.

I don't, however, need to cover my arse or have unattributable conversations.

I have seen it in use in a multi-national corporation despite it not being an approved method of communication. Admittedly it is more at team or department level than executive (as far as I know) but it still classes as ‘semi-formal’.

[inactionman]

It's actually incredibly safe. Total end to end encryption. Even law enforcement can't get into it.

The safety isn't really the issue - it's the lack of transparency.

Not many enterprises want a completely invisible, undocumentable communication path - I've never, ever seen it used in any enterprise in any even semi-formal capacity outside of presenting a channel to customers. Of course, I frequently whatsapp colleagues, but no way would anything of any importance to work go through it.

I don't, however, need to cover my arse or have unattributable conversations.

I have seen it in use in a multi-national corporation despite it not being an approved method of communication. Admittedly it is more at team or department level than executive (as far as I know) but it still classes as ‘semi-formal’.

I've used slack, teams, skype, lync (same thing as skype now) and a fair few other esoteric ones (mostly at tightwad places that didn't want to pony up for decent messaging services), but never whatsapp despite it being free - might just be as it's very mobile-centric and most of the others have a greater focus on desktop, but it's also the most 'point-to-point'.

That's not to say some organisations don't use it, just none I've worked for.

[robmatic]

I've never deleted a whatsapp message, but then I've not tried to run a government department by WhatsApp.

No-one else think using whatsapp in a professional setting is a bit odd?

It's actually incredibly safe. Total end to end encryption. Even law enforcement can't get into it.

The safety isn't really the issue - it's the lack of transparency.

Not many enterprises want a completely invisible, undocumentable communication path - I've never, ever seen it used in any enterprise in any even semi-formal capacity outside of presenting a channel to customers. Of course, I frequently whatsapp colleagues, but no way would anything of any importance to work go through it.

I don't, however, need to cover my arse or have unattributable conversations.

My previous job relied on WhatsApp for internal comms but there was only 8 of us in the company and the boss/owner didn't have the patience to install or learn anything else on his phone. It was also a pretty chaotic and unprofessional environment.

[Biffer]

Only thing I've ever used WhatsApp for professionally is when there's a group of us away at a conference and we're saying 'are we all going out for dinner' 'wheres dave' & 'did anyone else speak to that fuckwits trying to push his perpetual motion machine'

[Sandstorm]

It’s common in the contractor market. But not in USA where strangely not many people have even heard of it.

[shaggy]

It’s common in the contractor market. But not in USA where strangely not many people have even heard of it.

I think the industry makes a difference. In oil & gas you have staff, full time contractors and contract services working alongside each other and WhatsApp is a tool that cuts across the various systems in use. My old team in US were heavy users of it for logistics.

[sturginho]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... tary-ipad/

£11k in data? how much p**n was he watching?

[Sandstorm]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... tary-ipad/

£11k in data? how much p**n was he watching?

Watching football in his hotel room on 4G probably. Stupid twat.

[tc27]

More than one poll showing Labour pretty much even with the SNP for Holyrood and Westminster.




Would be interested if anyone here is going to change their voting based on Humza declaring the next GE is an de facto referendum?

[Blackmac]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... tary-ipad/

£11k in data? how much p**n was he watching?

Watching football in his hotel room on 4G probably. Stupid twat.

Absolute moron. I wonder what crucial government mission he was on his Morocco.

[Blackmac]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... tary-ipad/

£11k in data? how much p**n was he watching?

Watching football in his hotel room on 4G probably. Stupid twat.

Absolute moron. I wonder what crucial government mission he was on his Morocco.

I've just seen he wasn't on government business, he was on holiday. Surely he should be paying it all back.

[C T]

This latest 11k data roaming thing is just compounding my current disappointment with the SNP.

Here I was, naively thinking they were different.

There seems to be something dodgy going on with Sturgeon, the deleting WhatsApps, and now this.

So I'm supposed to buy that 11k of data roaming charges while this chap was away on holiday were work related and the new leader thinks it's a legitimate expense?

Having recently went on holiday to Japan, I completely get that data roaming charges can be eye-watering, but what do you have to do to get to 11k?

And now of course we have the doing the right thing, absolutely kicking and screaming rather than just doing it in the first place.

[Slick]

I was out last night with someone closely involved with the Scottish and U.K. Covid inquiries. They were saying that SG have been lying through their teeth about deleting evidence and it has been a coordinated effort to obstruct. They were seemingly unaware until recently that what they are doing is a criminal offence and it’s going to get ugly

[weegie01]

I was out last night with someone closely involved with the Scottish and U.K. Covid inquiries. They were saying that SG have been lying through their teeth about deleting evidence and it has been a coordinated effort to obstruct. They were seemingly unaware until recently that what they are doing is a criminal offence and it’s going to get ugly

Without having any knowledge of the Covid stuff, I do know people who have dealt professionally with the SNP and SG for a long time. One of the constant themes is the staggering level of naivety, combined with a conviction that they have all the answers.

Naivety is maybe the wrong word. I have heard from civil servants stories about how some of the younger SNP ministers are naive in that they have little life experience and knowledge. But are both bright, and smart enough to know their limitations and listen and take advice. On the other hand there are many whose sense of their own importance, intelligence and level of knowledge is far greater than reality. Depressingly, many of these are key decision makers.

[Blackmac]

This latest 11k data roaming thing is just compounding my current disappointment with the SNP.

Here I was, naively thinking they were different.

There seems to be something dodgy going on with Sturgeon, the deleting WhatsApps, and now this.

So I'm supposed to buy that 11k of data roaming charges while this chap was away on holiday were work related and the new leader thinks it's a legitimate expense?

Having recently went on holiday to Japan, I completely get that data roaming charges can be eye-watering, but what do you have to do to get to 11k?

And now of course we have the doing the right thing, absolutely kicking and screaming rather than just doing it in the first place.

What's worrying is that this moron is in charge of the NHS but doesn't appear to have the sense of your average 10 year old. Both him and Yousaf have clearly lied regarding it being legitimate government business and that is becoming a theme. Yousaf and his deputy have also lied about when they were first made aware of the requirement to submit their Watsapp messages. Generally if the lies don't get them out of it, there is a general lack of recollection about just about everything.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... tary-ipad/

£11k in data? how much p**n was he watching?

Watching football in his hotel room on 4G probably. Stupid twat.

Absolute moron. I wonder what crucial government mission he was on his Morocco.

A friend streamed a football match via mobile while on a cruise ship - so, satellite internet rates. The bill was several hundred quid. The company charged him for it

[Simian]

This latest 11k data roaming thing is just compounding my current disappointment with the SNP.

Here I was, naively thinking they were different.

There seems to be something dodgy going on with Sturgeon, the deleting WhatsApps, and now this.

So I'm supposed to buy that 11k of data roaming charges while this chap was away on holiday were work related and the new leader thinks it's a legitimate expense?

Having recently went on holiday to Japan, I completely get that data roaming charges can be eye-watering, but what do you have to do to get to 11k?

And now of course we have the doing the right thing, absolutely kicking and screaming rather than just doing it in the first place.

What's worrying is that this moron is in charge of the NHS but doesn't appear to have the sense of your average 10 year old. Both him and Yousaf have clearly lied regarding it being legitimate government business and that is becoming a theme. Yousaf and his deputy have also lied about when they were first made aware of the requirement to submit their Watsapp messages. Generally if the lies don't get them out of it, there is a general lack of recollection about just about everything.

Have they clearly lied? The things I’ve seen have all said it was constituent business (they may be lying about that). Given where he was that *could* mean zoom drop in sessions for constituents (for example). The big issue (to me, anyway) isn’t that he was out the country using it, but that he’d been advised to change the SIM card to one that wouldn’t incur data roaming charges over a year before he incurred the charges.

In my job I work often with politicians (SG and Westminster) from lots of different parties. These data management issues are not at all party specific, nor is their attitude to empirical evidence. My view is that, in terms of data management, they’re all as bad as each other. I don’t recall who made the point on this thread about younger politicians being more accepting of empirical evidence, but that’s been my experience too. Put simply, older more established politicians like simple messages and younger ones are more likely to trust the public to be able to handle nuance. And that cuts across party lines.

I guess my pint is that these are generational and political systems issues. They’re not anything to do with political affiliations (imo).

[Blackmac]

This latest 11k data roaming thing is just compounding my current disappointment with the SNP.

Here I was, naively thinking they were different.

There seems to be something dodgy going on with Sturgeon, the deleting WhatsApps, and now this.

So I'm supposed to buy that 11k of data roaming charges while this chap was away on holiday were work related and the new leader thinks it's a legitimate expense?

Having recently went on holiday to Japan, I completely get that data roaming charges can be eye-watering, but what do you have to do to get to 11k?

And now of course we have the doing the right thing, absolutely kicking and screaming rather than just doing it in the first place.

What's worrying is that this moron is in charge of the NHS but doesn't appear to have the sense of your average 10 year old. Both him and Yousaf have clearly lied regarding it being legitimate government business and that is becoming a theme. Yousaf and his deputy have also lied about when they were first made aware of the requirement to submit their Watsapp messages. Generally if the lies don't get them out of it, there is a general lack of recollection about just about everything.

Have they clearly lied? The things I’ve seen have all said it was constituent business (they may be lying about that). Given where he was that *could* mean zoom drop in sessions for constituents (for example). The big issue (to me, anyway) isn’t that he was out the country using it, but that he’d been advised to change the SIM card to one that wouldn’t incur data roaming charges over a year before he incurred the charges.

In my job I work often with politicians (SG and Westminster) from lots of different parties. These data management issues are not at all party specific, nor is their attitude to empirical evidence. My view is that, in terms of data management, they’re all as bad as each other. I don’t recall who made the point on this thread about younger politicians being more accepting of empirical evidence, but that’s been my experience too. Put simply, older more established politicians like simple messages and younger ones are more likely to trust the public to be able to handle nuance. And that cuts across party lines.

I guess my pint is that these are generational and political systems issues. They’re not anything to do with political affiliations (imo).

It's obviously impossible to say for certain but their first response was that the data was used entirely for government business and I don't think you need to be the greatest cynic to know that's not true, especially now that he has accepted the bill which is a clear attempt to avoid scrutiny of the data usage. My main concern is that this is a public servant, misusing public resources and then he is unwilling to accept responsibility. Failing to acknowledge the error and then attempting to cover up is always worse than the error itself and gets you sacked in just about every public sector organisation.

You are entirely right in your last paragraph.

[Slick]

So how long now before Mathieson remembers it wasn’t all Parliamentary business after all and resigns? End of the day?

Also a fair bit of squirming going on about the 25% of EU offshore wind potential that SG have been using consistently for years knowing it was bollocks.

Just a bunch of corrupt fuckers