NPR

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:20 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:13 pm

Random1 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:46 pm

Absolutely. The country is doing fine. We’ve got lots to work on, but necessity will drive our invention.

The one aspect that I am concerned about is actually being played out in this Fred - there are people (internal and external) trying to divide us into tribes and categories, and we’re at risk of falling apart and losing what makes us a great place to live.

Our democracy is central to this and so, yes, I agree, murdering an MP is more significant to the country than most other murders.

Not sure why that’s controversial.

Dearie me, the country is NOT doing fine.

I don't remember it being so polarised since 1984, there is a pandemic on and our daily case rate is terrible, the supply chain issues are well publicised, the government is a mixture of corruption and ineptitude, we've just left a a huge trading partner where there was a great deal of security, there is a very real chance that Scotland will leave the Union, the Good Friday Agreement is under attack and it could very well lead to violence being back on the streets of Ulster and elsewhere on these islands.

We are not doing fine.

Even prior to recent issues of Covid and Brexit - chronic wage stagnation, continuous fall in real terms purchasing power, under-employment, private monopolies on key public services (rail, certain utilities) delivering services at grotesque mark ups with no possibility of competition to assist consumers, 10 years of Tories reducing the manpower of the police and health service alongside sundry other cuts, ever rising food bank usage and rates of homlessness etc. etc.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:22 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:20 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:13 pm


Dearie me, the country is NOT doing fine.

I don't remember it being so polarised since 1984, there is a pandemic on and our daily case rate is terrible, the supply chain issues are well publicised, the government is a mixture of corruption and ineptitude, we've just left a a huge trading partner where there was a great deal of security, there is a very real chance that Scotland will leave the Union, the Good Friday Agreement is under attack and it could very well lead to violence being back on the streets of Ulster and elsewhere on these islands.

We are not doing fine.

Even prior to recent issues of Covid and Brexit - chronic wage stagnation, continuous fall in real terms purchasing power, under-employment, private monopolies on key public services (rail, certain utilities) delivering services at grotesque mark ups with no possibility of competition to assist consumers, 10 years of Tories reducing the manpower of the police and health service alongside sundry other cuts, ever rising food bank usage and rates of homlessness etc. etc.

Aye, I wonder what "not doing very well" would look like in some peoples; eyes.

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:30 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:22 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:20 pm

Even prior to recent issues of Covid and Brexit - chronic wage stagnation, continuous fall in real terms purchasing power, under-employment, private monopolies on key public services (rail, certain utilities) delivering services at grotesque mark ups with no possibility of competition to assist consumers, 10 years of Tories reducing the manpower of the police and health service alongside sundry other cuts, ever rising food bank usage and rates of homlessness etc. etc.

Aye, I wonder what "not doing very well" would look like in some peoples; eyes.

Well, Scotland leaving the Union would make things worse for us on almost all those measures, but you’re happy to do that.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:29 pm I think many of the people who live in the UK now are not particularly robust. They're entitled, they've never really known what going without really is. They're quite pathetic really.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:37 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:30 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:22 pm


Aye, I wonder what "not doing very well" would look like in some peoples; eyes.

Well, Scotland leaving the Union would make things worse for us on almost all those measures, but you’re happy to do that.

Most reasonable commentators seem to think Scotland wouldn't be any worse off as an independent country than it is sailing off on the Good Ship Boris.
My contention is that it is a short term thing, then we can set our own course, to continue the navigation metaphor.

Can you name a country that has gone independent then asked to be taken back under control of the union it left?

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:43 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:37 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:30 pm

Well, Scotland leaving the Union would make things worse for us on almost all those measures, but you’re happy to do that.

Most reasonable commentators seem to think Scotland wouldn't be any worse off as an independent country than it is sailing off on the Good Ship Boris.
My contention is that it is a short term thing, then we can set our own course, to continue the navigation metaphor.

Can you name a country that has gone independent then asked to be taken back under control of the union it left?

So Scotland going independent would suffer some 'short-term' hardship but leaving a controlling Union would ultimately be beneficial. So you were pro-Brexit then presumably?

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:37 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:30 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:22 pm


Aye, I wonder what "not doing very well" would look like in some peoples; eyes.

Well, Scotland leaving the Union would make things worse for us on almost all those measures, but you’re happy to do that.

Most reasonable commentators seem to think Scotland wouldn't be any worse off as an independent country than it is sailing off on the Good Ship Boris.
My contention is that it is a short term thing, then we can set our own course, to continue the navigation metaphor.

Can you name a country that has gone independent then asked to be taken back under control of the union it left?

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:43 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:29 pm I think many of the people who live in the UK now are not particularly robust. They're entitled, they've never really known what going without really is. They're quite pathetic really.

read this

https://www.jrf.org.uk/blog/its-wrong-s ... gK2svD_BwE

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:56 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:37 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:30 pm

Well, Scotland leaving the Union would make things worse for us on almost all those measures, but you’re happy to do that.

Most reasonable commentators seem to think Scotland wouldn't be any worse off as an independent country than it is sailing off on the Good Ship Boris.
My contention is that it is a short term thing, then we can set our own course, to continue the navigation metaphor.

Can you name a country that has gone independent then asked to be taken back under control of the union it left?

That first sentence is just nonsense.

Maybe there is an outside chance that it’s a brief interlude before we march into great times, but It’s just the hypocrisy of intelligent people like yourself, who, when it comes to independence, will tell us on one hand that the country is in the worst situation it’s been in for 40 years, but on the other, follow me, I’ve got a brilliant way to make it even worse!

The last paragraph is just facetious as well. What other country has been part of a union for over 300 years, with every part of its life interwoven, has some of the highest living standards in the world and has then agitated for independence? It’s a totally different situation to any other. Plus, in just about every other country that has gained independence over the last century there has been an absolutely massive majority in favour, not 50/50, so again, a totally different situation.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:45 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:43 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:37 pm


Most reasonable commentators seem to think Scotland wouldn't be any worse off as an independent country than it is sailing off on the Good Ship Boris.
My contention is that it is a short term thing, then we can set our own course, to continue the navigation metaphor.

Can you name a country that has gone independent then asked to be taken back under control of the union it left?

So Scotland going independent would suffer some 'short-term' hardship but leaving a controlling Union would ultimately be beneficial. So you were pro-Brexit then presumably?

No, I can examine different proposals on their own merits

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:00 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:43 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:29 pm I think many of the people who live in the UK now are not particularly robust. They're entitled, they've never really known what going without really is. They're quite pathetic really.

read this

https://www.jrf.org.uk/blog/its-wrong-s ... gK2svD_BwE

Property prices are a joke. Yeah I know. It is ridiculous. As little as 25 years ago, house prices still were actually not that bad, there was some correlation between average salary and average house prices. Then what happened? Well, Blair got elected and as hard as this is to swallow, he created the buy-to-let class mainly through a total abrogation of the need to build more homes. The result had been disastrous as property prices ballooned under Labour, and property has been central to the rise in child poverty as working families have to commit far higher proportions of their household income to paying mortgages or rent to the BTL landlords.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:05 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:45 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:43 pm



So Scotland going independent would suffer some 'short-term' hardship but leaving a controlling Union would ultimately be beneficial. So you were pro-Brexit then presumably?

No, I can examine different proposals on their own merits

Listen, if their was a referendum in England on whether the English wanted to keep Scotland in the Union then you'd have won independence decades ago. I'd cut the Scottish off in a heartbeat but unfortunately there are enough Scottish still living in Scotland who know a good deal when they see one and of course they voted to stay in the Union. And they'll vote to stay in the Union the next time that cranky you call a leader gets another 'once in a generation' referendum. And the time after that.

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:15 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:05 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:45 pm


No, I can examine different proposals on their own merits

Listen, if their was a referendum in England on whether the English wanted to keep Scotland in the Union then you'd have won independence decades ago. I'd cut the Scottish off in a heartbeat but unfortunately there are enough Scottish still living in Scotland who know a good deal when they see one and of course they voted to stay in the Union. And they'll vote to stay in the Union the next time that cranky you call a leader gets another 'once in a generation' referendum. And the time after that.

Then again, posts like this make me wonder

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:13 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:00 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:43 pm



read this

https://www.jrf.org.uk/blog/its-wrong-s ... gK2svD_BwE

Property prices are a joke. Yeah I know. It is ridiculous. As little as 25 years ago, house prices still were actually not that bad, there was some correlation between average salary and average house prices. Then what happened? Well, Blair got elected and as hard as this is to swallow, he created the buy-to-let class mainly through a total abrogation of the need to build more homes. The result had been disastrous as property prices ballooned under Labour, and property has been central to the rise in child poverty as working families have to commit far higher proportions of their household income to paying mortgages or rent to the BTL landlords.

You're arguing for an expansion public sector rented housing?

Terrific, I agree, New Labour's major failings were all with their alignment with the so-called "Free Market" and Tory policies, that was what led to the financial crash too, the lack of regulation on the markets, this goes back to the Gold Standard and the US property markets etc, as I'm sure you know

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:21 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:15 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:05 pm



Listen, if their was a referendum in England on whether the English wanted to keep Scotland in the Union then you'd have won independence decades ago. I'd cut the Scottish off in a heartbeat but unfortunately there are enough Scottish still living in Scotland who know a good deal when they see one and of course they voted to stay in the Union. And they'll vote to stay in the Union the next time that cranky you call a leader gets another 'once in a generation' referendum. And the time after that.

Then again, posts like this make me wonder

There are a lot of nutjobs, the argument is that they are outliers but I come across this sort of attitude all the time because I'm actively involved online in researching and talking about the state of the union.

Fortunately they don't have a vote

or maybe unfortunately

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:23 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:13 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:00 pm



Property prices are a joke. Yeah I know. It is ridiculous. As little as 25 years ago, house prices still were actually not that bad, there was some correlation between average salary and average house prices. Then what happened? Well, Blair got elected and as hard as this is to swallow, he created the buy-to-let class mainly through a total abrogation of the need to build more homes. The result had been disastrous as property prices ballooned under Labour, and property has been central to the rise in child poverty as working families have to commit far higher proportions of their household income to paying mortgages or rent to the BTL landlords.

You're arguing for an expansion public sector rented housing?

Terrific, I agree, New Labour's major failings were all with their alignment with the so-called "Free Market" and Tory policies, that was what led to the financial crash too, the lack of regulation on the markets, this goes back to the Gold Standard and the US property markets etc, as I'm sure you know

More council houses were built in the Thatcher era than were built in the Blair era. A lot lot lot more in fact. Interestingly, more coal mines were closed in the Wilson era than in the Thatcher era - a lot lot lot more. And yet what is the narrative?

Blair's tenure was a disaster for working class families.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:25 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:21 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:15 pm

Then again, posts like this make me wonder

There are a lot of nutjobs, the argument is that they are outliers but I come across this sort of attitude all the time because I'm actively involved online in researching and talking about the state of the union.

Fortunately they don't have a vote

or maybe unfortunately

We're nutjobs for wanting to vote for the outcome that you want to happen?

Think about that fella.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:36 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:23 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:13 pm


You're arguing for an expansion public sector rented housing?

Terrific, I agree, New Labour's major failings were all with their alignment with the so-called "Free Market" and Tory policies, that was what led to the financial crash too, the lack of regulation on the markets, this goes back to the Gold Standard and the US property markets etc, as I'm sure you know

More council houses were built in the Thatcher era than were built in the Blair era. A lot lot lot more in fact. Interestingly, more coal mines were closed in the Wilson era than in the Thatcher era - a lot lot lot more. And yet what is the narrative?

Blair's tenure was a disaster for working class families.

So now you're arguing that building council houses is good and that keeping pits open is good, and that doing the opposite is bad for working class families.

Welcome, Comrade, I agree.

or I would have done if coal hadn't proved to be so bad for the environment.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:38 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:25 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:21 pm


There are a lot of nutjobs, the argument is that they are outliers but I come across this sort of attitude all the time because I'm actively involved online in researching and talking about the state of the union.

Fortunately they don't have a vote

or maybe unfortunately

We're nutjobs for wanting to vote for the outcome that you want to happen?

Think about that fella.

No, it's the snobbery that makes you a nutjob

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:38 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:25 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:21 pm


There are a lot of nutjobs, the argument is that they are outliers but I come across this sort of attitude all the time because I'm actively involved online in researching and talking about the state of the union.

Fortunately they don't have a vote

or maybe unfortunately

We're nutjobs for wanting to vote for the outcome that you want to happen?

Think about that fella.

No, it's the snobbery that makes you a nutjob

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:41 pm


No I'm not arguing that. Mention of the word 'narrative' was the giveaway for those of average IQ. HTH.

Snobbery?! GTFO!

The SNP and the detritus that vote for them

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:50 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:41 pm


No I'm not arguing that. Mention of the word 'narrative' was the giveaway for those of average IQ. HTH.

I'm always up for a debate, and I used the word snobbery in a previous post because I thought you were very dismissive and condescending towards Nicola Sturgeon. In some respect fair enough, she is First Minister so she is a target for those who disagree with her, but this narrative has to change, she is not a "cranky we call a leader" she is the First Minister of Scotland and she has not been by any stretch perfect but she is not corrupt or bungling. I'm not even calling for any respect, just not these tired and untrue boring jibes.

If you want to continue this chat, quit with the "average IQ" type stuff, I'm not going to insult you in return, it doesn't rile me, it doesn't impress me it just makes me not want to continue.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:58 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:50 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:41 pm


No I'm not arguing that. Mention of the word 'narrative' was the giveaway for those of average IQ. HTH.

I'm always up for a debate, and I used the word snobbery in a previous post because I thought you were very dismissive and condescending towards Nicola Sturgeon. In some respect fair enough, she is First Minister so she is a target for those who disagree with her, but this narrative has to change, she is not a "cranky we call a leader" she is the First Minister of Scotland and she has not been by any stretch perfect but she is not corrupt or bungling. I'm not even calling for any respect, just not these tired and untrue boring jibes.

If you want to continue this chat, quit with the "average IQ" type stuff, I'm not going to insult you in return, it doesn't rile me, it doesn't impress me it just makes me not want to continue.

You called me a nutjob you stupid wee cunt.

Listen, you vote for a nationalist party. That pretty much never works out well. Good luck.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:04 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:58 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:50 pm

I'm always up for a debate, and I used the word snobbery in a previous post because I thought you were very dismissive and condescending towards Nicola Sturgeon. In some respect fair enough, she is First Minister so she is a target for those who disagree with her, but this narrative has to change, she is not a "cranky we call a leader" she is the First Minister of Scotland and she has not been by any stretch perfect but she is not corrupt or bungling. I'm not even calling for any respect, just not these tired and untrue boring jibes.

If you want to continue this chat, quit with the "average IQ" type stuff, I'm not going to insult you in return, it doesn't rile me, it doesn't impress me it just makes me not want to continue.

You called me a nutjob you stupid wee cunt.

Listen, you vote for a nationalist party. That pretty much never works out well. Good luck.

I thought you were robust

I'm not wee, and I stopped using the word cunt more almost 40 years ago when a women lecturer asked us to think why it was that the worst insult in the English language was the word for female genitalia.

I live in Brighton, so I don't vote for the SNP.
Caroline Lucas is my MP, she's a really good constituency MP

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:13 pm




Of course, I should have twigged earlier. All the biggest Scottish nationalists left Scotland for England years ago.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:17 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:13 pm




Of course, I should have twigged earlier. All the biggest Scottish nationalists left Scotland for England years ago.

Well, someone has to do the work and run the bloody place, that is the problem now that we've left the EU, there's no one to do the work


Someone said to me that I was just like Sean Connery, supporting Scottish independence whilst not actually living there.

I said that it wasn't the first time I'd been compared to James Bond

Random1 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:22 pm There are always issues in any timeframe. No point in panicking about it. Are today’s worse than the war? Worse than Cuban missile crisis? Worse than miner strikes, blackouts, bailouts, defaults, double digit interest rates, etc etc?

A proportion of every generation thinks things are unimaginably bad - and they rarely turn out worse than what previous generations had to deal with.

I’ll just be staying calm, focussing on what I can control/influence and ensure I play my role in changing the sector I work in for the better.

Suspect everything else will work out fine too.

Random1 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:22 pm There are always issues in any timeframe. No point in panicking about it. Are today’s worse than the war? Worse than Cuban missile crisis? Worse than miner strikes, blackouts, bailouts, defaults, double digit interest rates, etc etc?

A proportion of every generation thinks things are unimaginably bad - and they rarely turn out worse than what previous generations had to deal with.

I’ll just be staying calm, focussing on what I can control/influence and ensure I play my role in changing the sector I work in for the better.

Suspect everything else will work out fine too.

Random1 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:22 pm There are always issues in any timeframe. No point in panicking about it. Are today’s worse than the war? Worse than Cuban missile crisis? Worse than miner strikes, blackouts, bailouts, defaults, double digit interest rates, etc etc?

A proportion of every generation thinks things are unimaginably bad - and they rarely turn out worse than what previous generations had to deal with.

I’ll just be staying calm, focussing on what I can control/influence and ensure I play my role in changing the sector I work in for the better.

Suspect everything else will work out fine too.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:25 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:17 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:13 pm




Of course, I should have twigged earlier. All the biggest Scottish nationalists left Scotland for England years ago.

Well, someone has to do the work and run the bloody place, that is the problem now that we've left the EU, there's no one to do the work


Someone said to me that I was just like Sean Connery, supporting Scottish independence whilst not actually living there.

I said that it wasn't the first time I'd been compared to James Bond

I suspect you're just as much of a Scottish nationalist bore in real life in Brighton as you are in here and people in Brighton call you out on it.

Go back to Scotland. Seriously, we'll cope without you.

My problems with that is that it gives the current government a free pass,

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:24 pm Ahhh. So you want Scotland to leave from the country where you reside in as well (same as Toga).

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:32 pm

My problems with that is that it gives the current government a free pass,

Your problem is that it’s actually ok, and you want it to be bad, to teach naughty MPs a lesson.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:37 pm

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:32 pm

My problems with that is that it gives the current government a free pass,

Your problem is that it’s actually ok, and you want it to be bad, to teach naughty MPs a lesson.

err no, I don't want it to be bad.

If I thought everything was tickety boo then why TF would I want change?

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:39 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:37 pm

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:32 pm

Your problem is that it’s actually ok, and you want it to be bad, to teach naughty MPs a lesson.

err no, I don't want it to be bad.

If I thought everything was tickety boo then why TF would I want change?

Because you hate the Tories.