NPR

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:59 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:20 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:39 pm The sewage in the rivers story is quite funny. Privatisation: we're all in the sh*t.

The script about victorian infrastructure was almost contemptuous in it's implausibility.

The Tories handed the water companies a get of out jail free card; by allowing them to dump, untreated sewage in rivers, without consequences; & a couple of weeks later the water companies are doing exactly that; & using their free pass; rather than stumping up the extra money for Post-Brexit Chemicals.

Why would they pay higher wages for drivers; or increase their chemical storage, or stock on hand; when they can just open the taps, & dump raw sewage into the rivers ?

It's not going down at all well in the 'shires and the more rural and coastal Tory seats. Reckon they've fecked up badly here, bit like the planning cock ups that lost them the by-election, expect U-turn soon. Its a shame the politics of the issue will override the environmental issues but I suppose that's a Brexit benefit when we don't need to adhere to those pesky EU environmental standards?

Plim wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:10 am

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:57 am

Plim wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:46 am This must be the most politically self-regarding meme ever. Everything good is left-wing; everything bad is right-wing (more properly: all good things come only from the left; if you find anything bad you must understand it to be right-wing).

Over a hundred years ago it was exactly the same, just in relation to the Liberals rather than Labour. As John Buchan put it, about the Liberals in 1911, though he was writing in 1940:

“Now that the once omnipotent Liberal party has so declined, it is hard to realise how formidable it was in 1911—especially in Scotland. Its dogmas were so completely taken for granted that their presentation partook less of argument than of a tribal incantation. Mr. Gladstone had given it an aura of earnest morality, so that its platforms were also pulpits and its harangues had the weight of sermons. Its members seemed to assume that their opponents must be lacking either in morals or mind. The Tories were the "stupid" party; Liberals alone understood and sympathised with the poor; a working man who was not a Liberal was inaccessible to reason, or morally corrupt, or intimidated by laird or employer. I remember a lady summing up the attitude thus: Tories may think they are better born, but Liberals know that they are born better.“

We can only hope that Labour goes the way of the Liberals and that we get an up-to-date and sensible centre left party.

It's funny because it winds up right wingers

Fair. I doubt that on this forum anyone genuinely believes that the mainstream left is inherently morally superior and more principled than the mainstream right. But I’m all for goading.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:08 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:46 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:38 pm

To be fair; he was facing a much tougher audience, than he usually does.

Quite!

Actually I think he is absolutely bang on correct. Recycling is pretty woeful, we need to stop using plastics.

A bit more balance than this increasingly ridiculous thread

Recycling plastics does not work, says Boris Johnson https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59039155

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:59 am The wider point of blame on private companies also misses the point that the kind of upgrades we're looking at would end up with us all paying higher bills, and that water companies have upgraded the quality of Britain's water from what it was fairly significantly.

Excellent interview @Feargal_Sharkey

Average UK water & sewerage bill £396 per year in England, dividend paid to shareholders of water companies is over £2 billion per year: around £85 per English household. So over 21% of an English water bill goes to shareholders.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:21 am Raw sewage has been being dumped into the rivers round the Chilterns for as long as I can remember, most of that time we were in the EU.

During heavy rainfall the capacity of these pipes can be exceeded, which means possible inundation of sewage works and the potential to back up and flood peoples’ homes, roads and open spaces, unless it is allowed to spill elsewhere. Combined sewer overflows (CSOs) were developed as overflow valves to reduce the risk of sewage backing up during heavy rainfall.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:35 am Yeah as I understand it this is when the vast majority of dumping happens, for obvious reasons. Certainly my local river is not the place to be after heavy rainfall, outrageous but we shouldn't pretend that this is new.

Southern Water has been fined a record £90m for deliberately dumping billions of litres of raw sewage into protected seas over several years for its own financial gain.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:21 am Raw sewage has been being dumped into the rivers round the Chilterns for as long as I can remember, most of that time we were in the EU. Of course pre-privatisation rivers like the Thames and the Mersey were national disgraces. It's shit (literally) but the alternative is an enormous capital expenditure with probably less return than other green investments. I have no love for private water but I think the evidence that it's profiteering that causes this is thin on the ground.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:48 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:21 am Raw sewage has been being dumped into the rivers round the Chilterns for as long as I can remember, most of that time we were in the EU. Of course pre-privatisation rivers like the Thames and the Mersey were national disgraces. It's shit (literally) but the alternative is an enormous capital expenditure with probably less return than other green investments. I have no love for private water but I think the evidence that it's profiteering that causes this is thin on the ground.

The problem seems to be it's harder to get treatment chemicals to be fair. The water privatisation is a total sham as the FT explains here:

https://www.ft.com/content/2beee56a-961 ... 88e51488a0

Tldr - the regulator sets the prices, customers are decided by geography, 3 of 8 of them are publicly listed the other 5 are owned by PE investors who get returns of 16-19% which is double what is to be expected of similar infrastructure assets. Those of us like myself who chose (oh no wait, we don't get to chose in this capitalist utopoia) Thames Water have paid off over 2bn on of the 2.6bn debt Macquarie took on to buy it anyway.

A story of the failures of privatisation. If Keir Starmer had a political bone in his body he'd be singing from the rooftops you're paying overseas investors through the nose to have literal sh*t in your rivers. But he won't because he's metaphorically sh*t in the river.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:01 am Of course, if we reverse privatisation we're reliant on the state running it better, and their record on that is... mixed.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:13 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:01 am Of course, if we reverse privatisation we're reliant on the state running it better, and their record on that is... mixed.

Because I haven't Goggled before posting I'm opening myself up to be shot down, but iirc water is publicly owned in Scotland and has a much better record of fixing and preventing leaks.

We do have a lot of state owned companies in the UK, especially in transport, the French, German and Italian states are parent company owners of private providers here.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:01 am Of course, if we reverse privatisation we're reliant on the state running it better, and their record on that is... mixed.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:01 am Of course, if we reverse privatisation we're reliant on the state running it better, and their record on that is... mixed.

The Conservative MP Owen Paterson faces a 30-day suspension from the House of Commons for an “egregious” breach of lobbying rules, raising the possibility he could lose his seat if enough constituents trigger a byelection.

The MP for North Shropshire, a former cabinet minister, was found by the Commons commissioner for standards, Kathryn Stone, to have breached paid advocacy rules, after it was discovered he had worked as a consultant to Randox, a clinical diagnostics company, since August 2015. It was also discovered he was a paid consultant to Lynn’s Country Foods, a processor and distributor of meat products since December 2016.

In a ruling handed down on Tuesday, the commissioner found he made three approaches to the Food Standards Agency relating to Randox and the testing of antibiotics in milk; seven approaches to the same agency relating to Lynn’s Country Foods; and four approaches to ministers at the Department for International Development relating to Randox and blood testing technology

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:16 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:13 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:01 am Of course, if we reverse privatisation we're reliant on the state running it better, and their record on that is... mixed.

Because I haven't Goggled before posting I'm opening myself up to be shot down, but iirc water is publicly owned in Scotland and has a much better record of fixing and preventing leaks.

We do have a lot of state owned companies in the UK, especially in transport, the French, German and Italian states are parent company owners of private providers here.

Transport an excellent example though of where the railways have had significantly higher investment and ridership since privatisation, for all it's issues. Not going out to bat for private equity, just suggesting that State services reliant on the budget each year are not a magic bullet and have often underperformed.

The Committee found that Mr Paterson repeatedly used his position as a Member to promote the companies by whom he was paid, and therefore breached paragraph 11 of the 2015 MP’s Code of Conduct.

...The Committee agreed with the Commissioner that Mr Paterson's breaches of the paid advocacy rule are of sufficient seriousness also to have caused "significant damage to the reputation and integrity of the House of Commons as a whole", and therefore also conclude that Mr Paterson breached paragraph 16 of the 2015 Code of Conduct.

...In line with previous cases of a similar severity, the Committee recommends that Mr Paterson be suspended from the service of the House for 30 sitting days.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:00 am The rail issue is much more complex than is often laid out - essentially the government has contracted out the running of services in exchange for a c.3% fee above costs. Fares is again more complex and the issue is more the system is confusing than all rail travel is really expensive. Moreover, the railways are clearly in better shape than they were under British Rail, as evidenced by ridership, safety and punctuality.

I don't love any of this and sentimentally I like British Rail and other State firms, I'm just pointing out there is a not zero chance of State owned firms cocking up delivery, and particularly in rail raising costs well above the 3% taken by the contractors.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:26 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:00 am The rail issue is much more complex than is often laid out - essentially the government has contracted out the running of services in exchange for a c.3% fee above costs. Fares is again more complex and the issue is more the system is confusing than all rail travel is really expensive. Moreover, the railways are clearly in better shape than they were under British Rail, as evidenced by ridership, safety and punctuality.

I don't love any of this and sentimentally I like British Rail and other State firms, I'm just pointing out there is a not zero chance of State owned firms cocking up delivery, and particularly in rail raising costs well above the 3% taken by the contractors.

Private monopolies are a really bad idea (public monopolies can be pretty bad as well) Handing a monopoly to a company is asking for them to raise prices and lower investment. Was it Yorkshire water who decided not to fix leaks in the pipes and then got caught out in a drought?

The other side of that is when governments run out of money, long term investment is the first thing that gets canned. This is why the railways were in such bad shape after 30+ years of underinvestment. I remember seeing a programme - panorama or similar - where they were replacing every 3rd rotten wooden sleeper on sections of track because they didn't have the money to replace them all.

We are overpaying for upgrading railways currently but that's less bad than not spending at all which was what happened previously.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:15 am https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59049343

https://committees.parliament.uk/commit ... terson-mp/

The Committee found that Mr Paterson repeatedly used his position as a Member to promote the companies by whom he was paid, and therefore breached paragraph 11 of the 2015 MP’s Code of Conduct.

...The Committee agreed with the Commissioner that Mr Paterson's breaches of the paid advocacy rule are of sufficient seriousness also to have caused "significant damage to the reputation and integrity of the House of Commons as a whole", and therefore also conclude that Mr Paterson breached paragraph 16 of the 2015 Code of Conduct.

...In line with previous cases of a similar severity, the Committee recommends that Mr Paterson be suspended from the service of the House for 30 sitting days.

Paterson claimed the investigation by Kathryn Stone, the parliamentary standards commissioner, did “not comply with natural justice” and had played a “major role” in the death of his wife, Rose, who took her own life in June 2020.

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:36 am Hmmm!

Paterson claimed the investigation by Kathryn Stone, the parliamentary standards commissioner, did “not comply with natural justice” and had played a “major role” in the death of his wife, Rose, who took her own life in June 2020.

The Committee’s findings
The Committee noted at the beginning of its report that it was “painfully conscious that Mr Paterson lost his wife in tragic circumstances in June 2020; and we wish to express our deepest sympathy to him for his loss. This last year must have been very distressing for him and we have taken these circumstances fully into account in considering Mr Paterson’s conduct during the period of the investigation”, and recorded that it had “striven to ensure that Mr Paterson has had every opportunity to represent himself as fully as possible before the Committee, in person and in writing. We have extended deadlines at his request and we have accepted his request to be accompanied by his legal advisers and to make a formal opening statement to us”. However, the Committee noted that the allegations against Mr Paterson, which are the subject of the Commissioner’s memorandum, relate to his conduct between October 2016 and February 2020, before Mrs Paterson’s death.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:54 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:36 am Hmmm!

Paterson claimed the investigation by Kathryn Stone, the parliamentary standards commissioner, did “not comply with natural justice” and had played a “major role” in the death of his wife, Rose, who took her own life in June 2020.

Petulant twaddle, hiding behind the death of his wife is quite frankly despicable.

The Committee’s findings
The Committee noted at the beginning of its report that it was “painfully conscious that Mr Paterson lost his wife in tragic circumstances in June 2020; and we wish to express our deepest sympathy to him for his loss. This last year must have been very distressing for him and we have taken these circumstances fully into account in considering Mr Paterson’s conduct during the period of the investigation”, and recorded that it had “striven to ensure that Mr Paterson has had every opportunity to represent himself as fully as possible before the Committee, in person and in writing. We have extended deadlines at his request and we have accepted his request to be accompanied by his legal advisers and to make a formal opening statement to us”. However, the Committee noted that the allegations against Mr Paterson, which are the subject of the Commissioner’s memorandum, relate to his conduct between October 2016 and February 2020, before Mrs Paterson’s death.

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:01 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:54 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:36 am Hmmm!

Petulant twaddle, hiding behind the death of his wife is quite frankly despicable.

The Committee’s findings
The Committee noted at the beginning of its report that it was “painfully conscious that Mr Paterson lost his wife in tragic circumstances in June 2020; and we wish to express our deepest sympathy to him for his loss. This last year must have been very distressing for him and we have taken these circumstances fully into account in considering Mr Paterson’s conduct during the period of the investigation”, and recorded that it had “striven to ensure that Mr Paterson has had every opportunity to represent himself as fully as possible before the Committee, in person and in writing. We have extended deadlines at his request and we have accepted his request to be accompanied by his legal advisers and to make a formal opening statement to us”. However, the Committee noted that the allegations against Mr Paterson, which are the subject of the Commissioner’s memorandum, relate to his conduct between October 2016 and February 2020, before Mrs Paterson’s death.

Quite
Randox and the Pattersons appear to be inextricably linked. He was paid to lobby for them and she was a leading steward of the Jockey Club and director of Aintree Racecourse where Randox is the headline sponsor of the Grand National.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:34 am

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:26 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:00 am The rail issue is much more complex than is often laid out - essentially the government has contracted out the running of services in exchange for a c.3% fee above costs. Fares is again more complex and the issue is more the system is confusing than all rail travel is really expensive. Moreover, the railways are clearly in better shape than they were under British Rail, as evidenced by ridership, safety and punctuality.

I don't love any of this and sentimentally I like British Rail and other State firms, I'm just pointing out there is a not zero chance of State owned firms cocking up delivery, and particularly in rail raising costs well above the 3% taken by the contractors.

Private monopolies are a really bad idea (public monopolies can be pretty bad as well) Handing a monopoly to a company is asking for them to raise prices and lower investment. Was it Yorkshire water who decided not to fix leaks in the pipes and then got caught out in a drought?

The other side of that is when governments run out of money, long term investment is the first thing that gets canned. This is why the railways were in such bad shape after 30+ years of underinvestment. I remember seeing a programme - panorama or similar - where they were replacing every 3rd rotten wooden sleeper on sections of track because they didn't have the money to replace them all.

We are overpaying for upgrading railways currently but that's less bad than not spending at all which was what happened previously.

Yeah basically my point. I don't love the current set ups but realise that the alternatives are not perfect. Sticking with rail I think there was very little prospect of the West Coast upgrades, refurbishment of the London terminals and the new Azumas on the ECML/GWR for example happening if it was at the mercy of the Treasury each year.
I have very little confidence that any Chancellor of any party is going to spend a lot of money on sewers unless there's a chance of sewer explosions like when Homer Simpson took over bin collections in Springfield.

C T wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:13 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:01 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:54 am

Petulant twaddle, hiding behind the death of his wife is quite frankly despicable.

Quite
Randox and the Pattersons appear to be inextricably linked. He was paid to lobby for them and she was a leading steward of the Jockey Club and director of Aintree Racecourse where Randox is the headline sponsor of the Grand National.

If I'm reading things correctly he's saying that it was the investigation that contributed to his wife's suicide. Of course if he hadn't repeatedly used his position as an MP to benefit two companies that paid him as a consultant then there wouldn't have been an investigation.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:34 am

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:26 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:00 am The rail issue is much more complex than is often laid out - essentially the government has contracted out the running of services in exchange for a c.3% fee above costs. Fares is again more complex and the issue is more the system is confusing than all rail travel is really expensive. Moreover, the railways are clearly in better shape than they were under British Rail, as evidenced by ridership, safety and punctuality.

I don't love any of this and sentimentally I like British Rail and other State firms, I'm just pointing out there is a not zero chance of State owned firms cocking up delivery, and particularly in rail raising costs well above the 3% taken by the contractors.

Private monopolies are a really bad idea (public monopolies can be pretty bad as well) Handing a monopoly to a company is asking for them to raise prices and lower investment. Was it Yorkshire water who decided not to fix leaks in the pipes and then got caught out in a drought?

The other side of that is when governments run out of money, long term investment is the first thing that gets canned. This is why the railways were in such bad shape after 30+ years of underinvestment. I remember seeing a programme - panorama or similar - where they were replacing every 3rd rotten wooden sleeper on sections of track because they didn't have the money to replace them all.

We are overpaying for upgrading railways currently but that's less bad than not spending at all which was what happened previously.

Yeah basically my point. I don't love the current set ups but realise that the alternatives are not perfect. Sticking with rail I think there was very little prospect of the West Coast upgrades, refurbishment of the London terminals and the new Azumas on the ECML/GWR for example happening if it was at the mercy of the Treasury each year.
I have very little confidence that any Chancellor of any party is going to spend a lot of money on sewers unless there's a chance of sewer explosions like when Homer Simpson took over bin collections in Springfield.

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:42 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:34 am

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:26 am
Private monopolies are a really bad idea (public monopolies can be pretty bad as well) Handing a monopoly to a company is asking for them to raise prices and lower investment. Was it Yorkshire water who decided not to fix leaks in the pipes and then got caught out in a drought?

The other side of that is when governments run out of money, long term investment is the first thing that gets canned. This is why the railways were in such bad shape after 30+ years of underinvestment. I remember seeing a programme - panorama or similar - where they were replacing every 3rd rotten wooden sleeper on sections of track because they didn't have the money to replace them all.

We are overpaying for upgrading railways currently but that's less bad than not spending at all which was what happened previously.

Yeah basically my point. I don't love the current set ups but realise that the alternatives are not perfect. Sticking with rail I think there was very little prospect of the West Coast upgrades, refurbishment of the London terminals and the new Azumas on the ECML/GWR for example happening if it was at the mercy of the Treasury each year.
I have very little confidence that any Chancellor of any party is going to spend a lot of money on sewers unless there's a chance of sewer explosions like when Homer Simpson took over bin collections in Springfield.

UK Gov funded the East Coast mainline and Kings Cross upgrade!

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:14 pm Government uturning on the sewage discharge bill. The numbers of 150bn - 650bn cost were also entirely made up. Oh well, all's well that ends well. Even though a good amount of sewage will still reach the rivers.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:14 pm Government uturning on the sewage discharge bill. The numbers of 150bn - 650bn cost were also entirely made up. Oh well, all's well that ends well. Even though a good amount of sewage will still reach the rivers.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:08 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:46 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:38 pm

To be fair; he was facing a much tougher audience, than he usually does.

Quite!

Actually I think he is absolutely bang on correct. Recycling is pretty woeful, we need to stop using plastics.

A bit more balance than this increasingly ridiculous thread

Recycling plastics does not work, says Boris Johnson https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59039155

Openside wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:19 am

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:08 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:46 pm
Quite!

Actually I think he is absolutely bang on correct. Recycling is pretty woeful, we need to stop using plastics.

A bit more balance than this increasingly ridiculous thread

Recycling plastics does not work, says Boris Johnson https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59039155

Agreed, I couldn’t understand why he was pilloried for that statement. It’s blindingly obvious.

Openside wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:19 am

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:08 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:46 pm
Quite!

Actually I think he is absolutely bang on correct. Recycling is pretty woeful, we need to stop using plastics.

A bit more balance than this increasingly ridiculous thread

Recycling plastics does not work, says Boris Johnson https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59039155

Agreed, I couldn’t understand why he was pilloried for that statement. It’s blindingly obvious.