NPR

Blackmac wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:24 pm What's everyone's opinion on how mask wearing and social distancing is being adhered to. I ask because I was surprised to hear Piers Morgan saying there as an appaling lack of mask wearing in and around central London, especially in shops etc. I found this odd because up here it is incredibly rare to see even one person not wearing a mask . Surely there can't be that different an attitude.

There has to be a chance people are taking their masks off if they see Piers, why pass up the chance you might be infected

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:01 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:52 pm The NHS is great, but it’s badly managed. However if you bring in private-style management then staff numbers in the wrong area - nurses instead of managers will be cut - and patients will end up the losers.

I do not know what the answer is. Sorry.

I spent three weeks in hospital last year and it was clearly an inefficient system (though I owe it my life - thank you all).

And yet one of our huge problems now is that it runs so efficiently in terms of bed occupation. We have dangerously few spare beds compared to much of Western Europe and that’s a huge problem right now.

NHS runs at over 90% bed occupancy and has one of the lowest bed numbers per population across all comparable health systems. Its no wonder it creaks during winter and if there is a flu or coronavirus epidemic, it hasn't been funded to deal with them! If you want an inefficient and expensive system just go the states and their privatised system. Again I would suggest folk go to the Commonwealth Fund reports which found the NHS was usually one of the most efficient in admin efficiency against 11 comparable health systems.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:45 pm

Carter's Choice wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:39 pm Is this thread Bimboman arguing with every singe other poster?

It’s relentless

I've never seen this level of contrarianism. He's literally arguing with everyone. It's weird how managing COVID-19 has been almost impossible for every government and every world leader, but it's super-easy according to Bimboman.

Carter's Choice wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:18 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:45 pm

Carter's Choice wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:39 pm Is this thread Bimboman arguing with every singe other poster?

It’s relentless

I've never seen this level of contrarianism. He's literally arguing with everyone. It's weird how managing COVID-19 has been almost impossible for every government and every world leader, but it's super-easy according to Bimboman.

Several posters here got pissy when I suggested that he’s on the spectrum, but it’s the only explanation for his behaviour. Any normal person -especially one who’s part of the rugby community - would eventually quit and just laugh.

Not this guy.

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:11 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:01 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:52 pm The NHS is great, but it’s badly managed. However if you bring in private-style management then staff numbers in the wrong area - nurses instead of managers will be cut - and patients will end up the losers.

I do not know what the answer is. Sorry.

I spent three weeks in hospital last year and it was clearly an inefficient system (though I owe it my life - thank you all).

And yet one of our huge problems now is that it runs so efficiently in terms of bed occupation. We have dangerously few spare beds compared to much of Western Europe and that’s a huge problem right now.

NHS runs at over 90% bed occupancy and has one of the lowest bed numbers per population across all comparable health systems. Its no wonder it creaks during winter and if there is a flu or coronavirus epidemic, it hasn't been funded to deal with them! If you want an inefficient and expensive system just go the states and their privatised system. Again I would suggest folk go to the Commonwealth Fund reports which found the NHS was usually one of the most efficient in admin efficiency against 11 comparable health systems.

It’s just bottom of the league at keeping people alive. Kills you cheaply though.

It’s funded to the tune of 1 billion pounds every 3 days.

If you want to get great treatment and an equal system go almost anywhere bar America and get better than the NHS coughs up.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:24 pm

Carter's Choice wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:18 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:45 pm

It’s relentless

I've never seen this level of contrarianism. He's literally arguing with everyone. It's weird how managing COVID-19 has been almost impossible for every government and every world leader, but it's super-easy according to Bimboman.

Several posters here got pissy when I suggested that he’s on the spectrum, but it’s the only explanation for his behaviour. Any normal person -especially one who’s part of the rugby community - would eventually quit and just laugh.

Not this guy.

I’m consistent regarding every issue I post on, it’s not contrarian......

You’re agreeing with Troll Ali about trolling.

Once again you’ve diagnosed someone on the Internet. With no irony at all from system dude central about others being autistic.again take a bow.

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:09 pm

She’s not trying very hard, it took me around thirty seconds to find it, PHE/Cambridge, Sage, LSHTM, Imperial, Warwick.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:34 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:09 pm

She’s not trying very hard, it took me around thirty seconds to find it, PHE/Cambridge, Sage, LSHTM, Imperial, Warwick.

Which one is which ?

Oh and while you’re here as an expert can you explain how we could maintain 4,000 deaths a day if the known over all IFR is 0.25%?

The pandemic wouldn’t last that long.

Also make a comparison to Brazil who got no where near that number but have 200 million plus people and a poor health service ?

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:36 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:34 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:09 pm

She’s not trying very hard, it took me around thirty seconds to find it, PHE/Cambridge, Sage, LSHTM, Imperial, Warwick.

Which one is which ?

GIYF

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:37 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:36 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:34 pm


She’s not trying very hard, it took me around thirty seconds to find it, PHE/Cambridge, Sage, LSHTM, Imperial, Warwick.

Which one is which ?

GIYF

We should get to see the models right ?

Did you not see them then?

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:41 pm Did you not see them then?

You have the models ?

Of course I don’t have the models, but armed with the knowledge of who conducted the research I could probably find them. Perhaps others could too.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:46 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:28 pm

Blackmac wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:24 pm What's everyone's opinion on how mask wearing and social distancing is being adhered to. I ask because I was surprised to hear Piers Morgan saying there as an appaling lack of mask wearing in and around central London, especially in shops etc. I found this odd because up here it is incredibly rare to see even one person not wearing a mask . Surely there can't be that different an attitude.

I’ve not seen more than one or two unmasked people in supermarkets here. I do most of the family shopping.

The young though are all quietly partying post the 10pm close downs. Especially at weekends.

Bimboh is right. People are wearing masks in shops and following the rules in public.

In private it’s a shitshow, especially in the under 30s who are partying with their mates, then going home to Mum and Dad and Nan and making them sick.

I said on here a few weeks back that on a trip to London I was very surprised at the different attitudes to up here. Plenty of people not wearing masks in shops, cafes etc.

I was in Mull last week and it seemed to be mainly English tourists. It was really noticeable the difference in attitudes again. Most of the shops had big signs outside reminding people of the rules but lots didn’t seem to give a shit. The locals we spoke to said it had been the same all summer

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:48 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:46 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:28 pm



I’ve not seen more than one or two unmasked people in supermarkets here. I do most of the family shopping.

The young though are all quietly partying post the 10pm close downs. Especially at weekends.

Bimboh is right. People are wearing masks in shops and following the rules in public.

In private it’s a shitshow, especially in the under 30s who are partying with their mates, then going home to Mum and Dad and Nan and making them sick.

I said on here a few weeks back that on a trip to London I was very surprised at the different attitudes to up here. Plenty of people not wearing masks in shops, cafes etc.

I was in Mull last week and it seemed to be mainly English tourists. It was really noticeable the difference in attitudes again. Most of the shops had big signs outside reminding people of the rules but lots didn’t seem to give a shit. The locals we spoke to said it had been the same all summer

What different English tourists they must get. Two trips away for me and family over summer and adherence to masks in shops was very high.

There’s a shock

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:11 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:01 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:52 pm The NHS is great, but it’s badly managed. However if you bring in private-style management then staff numbers in the wrong area - nurses instead of managers will be cut - and patients will end up the losers.

I do not know what the answer is. Sorry.

I spent three weeks in hospital last year and it was clearly an inefficient system (though I owe it my life - thank you all).

And yet one of our huge problems now is that it runs so efficiently in terms of bed occupation. We have dangerously few spare beds compared to much of Western Europe and that’s a huge problem right now.

NHS runs at over 90% bed occupancy and has one of the lowest bed numbers per population across all comparable health systems. Its no wonder it creaks during winter and if there is a flu or coronavirus epidemic, it hasn't been funded to deal with them! If you want an inefficient and expensive system just go the states and their privatised system. Again I would suggest folk go to the Commonwealth Fund reports which found the NHS was usually one of the most efficient in admin efficiency against 11 comparable health systems.

I think we are agreeing that by the bed occupancy measure the NHS is very efficient. However, the impact of this masks dangerous and unintended consequences at the best of times - at times like this we have insufficient capacity and a failing system.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:48 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:46 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:28 pm



I’ve not seen more than one or two unmasked people in supermarkets here. I do most of the family shopping.

The young though are all quietly partying post the 10pm close downs. Especially at weekends.

Bimboh is right. People are wearing masks in shops and following the rules in public.

In private it’s a shitshow, especially in the under 30s who are partying with their mates, then going home to Mum and Dad and Nan and making them sick.

I said on here a few weeks back that on a trip to London I was very surprised at the different attitudes to up here. Plenty of people not wearing masks in shops, cafes etc.

I was in Mull last week and it seemed to be mainly English tourists. It was really noticeable the difference in attitudes again. Most of the shops had big signs outside reminding people of the rules but lots didn’t seem to give a shit. The locals we spoke to said it had been the same all summer

There is a huge issue around enforcement imo. It’s not easy but it has to be tackled. Round my way most people make At least a token effort but a significant proportion don’t wear masks or observe social distancing properly. Even outside my GPs today I felt moved to offer advice to three out of five people. One pillock failed on mask, distance and foot operated sanitiser. Obviously he reacted quite aggressively to my helpful hints. As I said it’s not easy.

Enforcement? Nonsense, people can always be trusted to do the right thing.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:03 pm

Blackmac wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:24 pm What's everyone's opinion on how mask wearing and social distancing is being adhered to. I ask because I was surprised to hear Piers Morgan saying there as an appaling lack of mask wearing in and around central London, especially in shops etc. I found this odd because up here it is incredibly rare to see even one person not wearing a mask . Surely there can't be that different an attitude.

There has to be a chance people are taking their masks off if they see Piers, why pass up the chance you might be infected

I haven't seen a single person without a mask in either Sainsburys in weeks or Guildford today.

frodder wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:05 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:04 pm Telegraph tomorrow reporting that the Brexit Party is to relaunch as an anti lockdown party.

Cue Farage getting hours of unwarranted BBC airtime again.

You cannot be serious

I said ages ago, he should have been made a lord, it would keep him out of trouble.

Muttonbird wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:30 am

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:28 am

Muttonbird wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:23 am Incredible. LBC listeners voting for an astronomically larger NHS. How the world turns.

What the fuck would you know about LBC listeners? And what vote ?

LBC seems like a right wing mouthpiece. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You draw that conclusion from a clip of a ex-Islamic extremist radio host asking for more money for Health care? You are stupid.

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:43 am I find the 'lockdown sceptics' pretty tedious.

I have no doubt at all that if there wasn't an overwhelming need for it then no government (and particularly this one) would be doing it.

Indeed. It is blindingly obvious this Government have resisted lockdowns when possible. SO why so many nutters are acting like they are purposely jumping the gun here against all reason is ridiculous.

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:57 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:23 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:02 pm

You’d lock down forever then. Kill millions through other problems but solve the Covid issue.

Lockdowns in the west massively increase third world poverty. Everytime you cheer on that delay millions of poor people become poorer.

Oh and we certainly don’t need a world wide government solution.

I’d lock down until we get R below 1 as that seems to be what the best advice is, if that comes sooner than the 2nd of December then so much the better.

poverty in the developing world is such a huge topic that I genuinely do not have the time to go into it, but it does deserve better than that statement you made.

No you would want the death of millions.

Ffs he's stinking up nearly everythread everywhere

Except of course Rugby threads.....

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:59 pm

My question is why is test and trace so effective in South Korea and ahs failed in Germany? I'm, wondering if shutting borders isn't simply the best option with any other action, something Europe make politically difficult. Australia and New Zealand clearly have a better grasp on COVID than Europe as a whole.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:46 pm Bimboh is right. People are wearing masks in shops and following the rules in public.

In private it’s a shitshow, especially in the under 30s who are partying with their mates, then going home to Mum and Dad and Nan and making them sick.

If under 30's are still taking the piss it sounds like the UK needs a raft of preventative measures as well as the lockdowns? Melbourne imposed a curfew, a 5km travel radius, made masks mandatory and levied $5000 fines for anyone breaching any of the rules. Seemed to work pretty well for them. 5000 pound fines would act as a decent deterrent for British youngsters.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:52 pm The NHS is great, but it’s badly managed. However if you bring in private-style management then staff numbers in the wrong area - nurses instead of managers will be cut - and patients will end up the losers.

I do not know what the answer is. Sorry.

Import some of the best health system leaders from Europe to reform the NHS to a better model?

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:19 am

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:43 am I find the 'lockdown sceptics' pretty tedious.

I have no doubt at all that if there wasn't an overwhelming need for it then no government (and particularly this one) would be doing it.

Indeed. It is blindingly obvious this Government have resisted lockdowns when possible. SO why so many nutters are acting like they are purposely jumping the gun here against all reason is ridiculous.

Part of Johnson’s statement to the HoC on the 12th of October

This morning the Deputy Chief Medical Officer set out the stark reality of the second wave of this virus the number of cases has quadrupled in the last three weeks there are now more people in hospital with Covid than when we went into lockdown on March 23 and deaths are already rising and of course there are those who say that on that logic we should go back into a full national lockdown of indefinite duration closing schools and businesses telling people again to stay at home as we did in March once again shuttering our lives and our society

I do not believe that would be the right course,

Carter's Choice wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:39 pm Is this thread Bimboman arguing with every singe other poster?

If we connected two wires to him it would be unlimited free electricity for a generation.

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:36 pm

Doesn't that show lockdowns do work then?

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:25 am

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:59 pm

My question is why is test and trace so effective in South Korea and ahs failed in Germany? I'm, wondering if shutting borders isn't simply the best option with any other action, something Europe make politically difficult. Australia and New Zealand clearly have a better grasp on COVID than Europe as a whole.

Tracing in South Korea involves a level of data intrusion that is unacceptable in Europe. Phone GPS tracking, credit card recipts etc to look at exactly who ahs come into contact with who. Whereas we have a system designed to look into people's history as little as possible, they have the exact opposite

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:25 am

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:59 pm

My question is why is test and trace so effective in South Korea and ahs failed in Germany? I'm, wondering if shutting borders isn't simply the best option with any other action, something Europe make politically difficult. Australia and New Zealand clearly have a better grasp on COVID than Europe as a whole.

This seems fairly explainable to me - South Korea is a broadly authoritarian state with a public well aware of the dangers of being surrounded by deeply unpredictable neighbours. Therefore the government can demand, and get, a higher level of compliance than is possible in Western Europe in 2020.
Australia and New Zealand are a long way from anywhere and could more easily shut down than Western Europe. Whether in the long run that will prove a better outcome we shall see.

It does strike me as somewhat reassuring that despite Boris' increasingly calamitous performance our outcomes seem to be broadly comparable to France and Germany.

Saint wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:43 am


Tracing in South Korea involves a level of data intrusion that is unacceptable in Europe. Phone GPS tracking, credit card recipts etc to look at exactly who ahs come into contact with who. Whereas we have a system designed to look into people's history as little as possible, they have the exact opposite

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:48 am

This seems fairly explainable to me - South Korea is a broadly authoritarian state with a public well aware of the dangers of being surrounded by deeply unpredictable neighbours. Therefore the government can demand, and get, a higher level of compliance than is possible in Western Europe in 2020.
Australia and New Zealand are a long way from anywhere and could more easily shut down than Western Europe. Whether in the long run that will prove a better outcome we shall see.

It does strike me as somewhat reassuring that despite Boris' increasingly calamitous performance our outcomes seem to be broadly comparable to France and Germany.

That all makes sense, cheers.

I wonder if Labour and other critics will still pursue " a good test and trace system" as the answer to all COVID ills.

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:53 am

Saint wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:43 am


Tracing in South Korea involves a level of data intrusion that is unacceptable in Europe. Phone GPS tracking, credit card recipts etc to look at exactly who ahs come into contact with who. Whereas we have a system designed to look into people's history as little as possible, they have the exact opposite

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:48 am

This seems fairly explainable to me - South Korea is a broadly authoritarian state with a public well aware of the dangers of being surrounded by deeply unpredictable neighbours. Therefore the government can demand, and get, a higher level of compliance than is possible in Western Europe in 2020.
Australia and New Zealand are a long way from anywhere and could more easily shut down than Western Europe. Whether in the long run that will prove a better outcome we shall see.

It does strike me as somewhat reassuring that despite Boris' increasingly calamitous performance our outcomes seem to be broadly comparable to France and Germany.

That all makes sense, cheers.

I wonder if Labour and other critics will still pursue " a good test and trace system" as the answer to all COVID ills.

Where I suspect Starmer is right is that if T&T is going to work then this month is the last opportunity to get it right. Almost de facto the borders are closed and so we can get it set up for new arrivals. The challenge though is it will always require a level of compulsion we're not used to.

The only T&T system I've seen in the west that actually works is Jersey's - but then you've got only two points of entry and everyone tests on arrival.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:48 amIt does strike me as somewhat reassuring that despite Boris' increasingly calamitous performance our outcomes seem to be broadly comparable to France and Germany.

Deaths per million population:

Germany 128
France 550
UK 700

Eh...

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:11 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:48 amIt does strike me as somewhat reassuring that despite Boris' increasingly calamitous performance our outcomes seem to be broadly comparable to France and Germany.

Deaths per million population:

Germany 128
France 550
UK 700

Eh...

Bimbo in 3, 2, 1 ...

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:18 pm

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:11 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:01 pm

I spent three weeks in hospital last year and it was clearly an inefficient system (though I owe it my life - thank you all).

And yet one of our huge problems now is that it runs so efficiently in terms of bed occupation. We have dangerously few spare beds compared to much of Western Europe and that’s a huge problem right now.

NHS runs at over 90% bed occupancy and has one of the lowest bed numbers per population across all comparable health systems. Its no wonder it creaks during winter and if there is a flu or coronavirus epidemic, it hasn't been funded to deal with them! If you want an inefficient and expensive system just go the states and their privatised system. Again I would suggest folk go to the Commonwealth Fund reports which found the NHS was usually one of the most efficient in admin efficiency against 11 comparable health systems.

I think we are agreeing that by the bed occupancy measure the NHS is very efficient. However, the impact of this masks dangerous and unintended consequences at the best of times - at times like this we have insufficient capacity and a failing system.

Actually not the point I was making! Running the system with over 90% bed occupancy isn't a measure of success, it leads to inefficiency, poor use of resources and poor clinical outcomes. What we really need is to up the number of beds available and run at about 80% occupancy levels. This would make the system more efficient and provide headroom for winter and periods of high demand. This could be done if we funded the NHS up to roughly the same levels as that in comparable systems in europe - look at the number of beds per capita in the likes of Germany for example. It would also improve clinical outcomes. However real term cuts in the NHS over the last 10 years has created a major problem. Also I know for a fact that bed numbers were reduced in order to make the PFI type contracts affordable - all the business cases made heroic assumptions about number of beds required modelled on unrealistic assumptions about lengths of stay, care at home, outpatient and day cases rates, etc. All of this was to reduce bed numbers to make the PFI contracts affordable and ensure the private sector made a profit. Whilst the NHS has achieved miracles in terms of reducing length of stay and day case rates etc the demographics, the improving outcomes in treatment, in cancer care for example, and the failure of the social care sector provision means the NHS is short of bed capacity.

Rinkals wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:24 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:11 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:48 amIt does strike me as somewhat reassuring that despite Boris' increasingly calamitous performance our outcomes seem to be broadly comparable to France and Germany.

Deaths per million population:

Germany 128
France 550
UK 700

Eh...

Bimbo in 3, 2, 1 ...