NPR

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:10 pm If a ref or tmo etc gets too many decisions wrong, they get put on a lower level game, or fired (if it's bad enough and they're at/near the end anyway).

They don't get to be awful with no consequences.

I think that was Rennies frustration with Marius.

What NZ need is for Foster to kick off in the media, and encourages death threats be made to Barnes over something. Then hopefully a lifetime band ensues for Foster, and Barnes vanishes in to a protection program.

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:10 pm If a ref or tmo etc gets too many decisions wrong, they get put on a lower level game, or fired (if it's bad enough and they're at/near the end anyway).

They don't get to be awful with no consequences.

Unless they're Jerome Garces and retire immediately afterwards.

Prembore wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:37 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:10 pm If a ref or tmo etc gets too many decisions wrong, they get put on a lower level game, or fired (if it's bad enough and they're at/near the end anyway).

They don't get to be awful with no consequences.

Unless they're Jerome Garces and retire immediately afterwards.

Still hurts, hm?!

Re: Tompkins try, I do wonder if the influence of the NRL on Australian rugby has caused this.

In the NRL, unless a handling error goes really obviously backwards, it is given as a knock on. It's actually very strange, and the players just seem to accept it.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:30 pm There's literally nothing Ewels could have done. The picture presented to him when he decided to tackle was one thing, and he was attempting a legal tackle, was in control of his actions, and the tackle looked like it needed to be made. There was no danger inherent in his actions.

As much as I hate to say it, that's as close to a "rugby incident" and accidental as it gets.

Kolisi's tackle in the air was a borderline yellow. However it is incumbent on players to be aware of other players - if you choose to compete in the air and get it wrong, it's on you. Marchant ended up whacking his face fairly heavily on the ground so a yellow isn't the worst it could've been. This has been consistently refereed for a few years now.

Sounds like you're arguing that there are mitigating circumstances to take into account in the first one and none to be considered in second one?

Consistently? Like when the Lions 9 dumped Kolbe by grabbing his leg while still in the air and it wasn't even a penalty or the one when Willie Le Roux was dumped in his head but not a yellow?

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:50 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:30 pm There's literally nothing Ewels could have done. The picture presented to him when he decided to tackle was one thing, and he was attempting a legal tackle, was in control of his actions, and the tackle looked like it needed to be made. There was no danger inherent in his actions.

As much as I hate to say it, that's as close to a "rugby incident" and accidental as it gets.

Kolisi's tackle in the air was a borderline yellow. However it is incumbent on players to be aware of other players - if you choose to compete in the air and get it wrong, it's on you. Marchant ended up whacking his face fairly heavily on the ground so a yellow isn't the worst it could've been. This has been consistently refereed for a few years now.

Sounds like you're arguing that there are mitigating circumstances to take into account in the first one and none to be considered in second one?

Consistently? Like when the Lions 9 dumped Kolbe by grabbing his leg while still in the air and it wasn't even a penalty or the one when Willie Le Roux was dumped in his head but not a yellow?

Mitigating circumstances applied to both. Which is why Kolisi didnt get a red card. However, there were many more mitigating circumstances in the first one.

That sort of action - tackling a player in the air who then lands dangerously - is consistently a card, yes. I'm sure we can both find examples of it not getting a card, which is not the same thing as we can find overwhelming numbers of examples where it IS a card. Consistently in rugby doesn't mean "every time" - there's nothing that's refereed the same way every time in this sport. I don't recall the two examples you give me so won't try to argue, though I am familiar with your history on some of this stuff so will take your framing of events with a large pinch of salt!

I will say the referee's justification of not being in a realistic position to catch the ball is incorrect - he clearly was trying and was shaped to try. However, he got his timing dangerously wrong (also it's very hard for players running across, not to the ball, to get this right) and didn't account for the opposition at all, and tackled him in the air. The ref also didn't really look at how Marchant landed, so with two errors he somehow managed to come to the right outcome.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:09 am That sort of action - tackling a player in the air who then lands dangerously - is consistently a card, yes.

Except in the Lions first test, (where it wasn't even a penalty, let alone a card) was that an anomaly or has something changed since then?

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:31 am Re: Tompkins try, I do wonder if the influence of the NRL on Australian rugby has caused this.

In the NRL, unless a handling error goes really obviously backwards, it is given as a knock on. It's actually very strange, and the players just seem to accept it.

In real time it looked so wrong that I don't think Wales would have complained had it been given. That said, the ref was spot on and you play to the whistle.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:37 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:09 am That sort of action - tackling a player in the air who then lands dangerously - is consistently a card, yes.

Except in the Lions first test, (where it wasn't even a penalty, let alone a card) was that an anomaly or has something changed since then?

Please see previous comment.

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:31 am Re: Tompkins try, I do wonder if the influence of the NRL on Australian rugby has caused this.

In the NRL, unless a handling error goes really obviously backwards, it is given as a knock on. It's actually very strange, and the players just seem to accept it.

Nigel Owens also had a tendency to award a knock on if a player touched the ball regardless of which way the ball went, even when the ball had very obviously gone backwards (especially when reffing England).

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:58 am

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:31 am Re: Tompkins try, I do wonder if the influence of the NRL on Australian rugby has caused this.

In the NRL, unless a handling error goes really obviously backwards, it is given as a knock on. It's actually very strange, and the players just seem to accept it.

Nigel Owens also had a tendency to award a knock on if a player touched the ball regardless of which way the ball went, even when the ball had very obviously gone backwards (especially when reffing England).

That magical game...

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:09 am I don't recall the two examples... so will take your framing of events with a large pinch of salt!

Yeah, no idea why Rassie felt compelled to highlight both in detail

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:12 pm Yeah I get it “Pipe down losers”

From an AB perspective I’ve nothing really I can moan about re reffing last night. I don’t think Barnes had a Homer.

I didn’t really follow the Aus game. But not surprised to see cards being dished out in true Wales home game form. It sounds like it was one sided officiating based on comments above.

Was at the Eng game and was very surprised not to see a card against the Etsebeth tackle. I get he was falling in to tackle which mitigated getting a straight red. Though yellow card against Nepo Laulala seemed of similar or lesser nature and impact.

Likewise cynical cards not really going against the home team.

Any yellow cards against home teams this Autumn?

The statement and query stand at odds

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:06 am That magical game...

That was the "I'd have given you a yellow card if you hadn't just got on the pitch..." game right, when someone completely killed a great England attacking ball?

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:06 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:09 am I don't recall the two examples... so will take your framing of events with a large pinch of salt!

Yeah, no idea why Rassie felt compelled to highlight both in detail

Ah yes, I remember these.

First one - quite a different example in that it's a very different picture, but would expect a card nonetheless because he clearly grabs a leg and tips him.
Second one - that's a tip tackle of a player that was on the ground. Not sure what it has to do with this discussion, unless the intention is to relitigate and cry over a match from the summer featuring a different team. Just feels like you're trying to muddy the waters.

Again, consistently doesn't mean "every time", especially in rugby. People consistently get carded for deliberate knock ons, but I've seen many people not get carded. Essentially what you're doing here is arguing that because you can think of an example where the team your side played against didn't get a yellow, your side shouldn't get a yellow. Given that I'm pretty sure I've seen every law misapplied in top level matches, should we just not have any laws at all?

The only interesting argument to be had here with the Lions footage is whether we're seeing a difference in how SH refs, with their more laissez-faire attitude to player safety, and NH refs, who are more strict on that stuff, approach the game.

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:18 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:06 am That magical game...

That was the "I'd have given you a yellow card if you hadn't just got on the pitch..." game right, when someone completely killed a great England attacking ball?

I don't remember that!
I only remember it as the one where an England player fielded the ball in the manner taught to kids - turning so that if he dropped it, it went backwards - only for Owens to claim it as a knock on... right after I'd jokingly yelled at the TV "Go on Nige, call that a knock-on"

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:16 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:12 pm Yeah I get it “Pipe down losers”

From an AB perspective I’ve nothing really I can moan about re reffing last night. I don’t think Barnes had a Homer.

I didn’t really follow the Aus game. But not surprised to see cards being dished out in true Wales home game form. It sounds like it was one sided officiating based on comments above.

Was at the Eng game and was very surprised not to see a card against the Etsebeth tackle. I get he was falling in to tackle which mitigated getting a straight red. Though yellow card against Nepo Laulala seemed of similar or lesser nature and impact.

Likewise cynical cards not really going against the home team.

Any yellow cards against home teams this Autumn?

The statement and query stand at odds

Obviously not paying attention or thought Will Stuart was playing for S Africa

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:12 pm Any yellow cards against home teams this Autumn?

in the Eng/Sco/Wales v SA/NZ/Aus games there were 3 cards (89 pens against) against the home nations, 8 against the visitors (86 pens).
2 against Wales, 1 against England.

If you include Tonga & Fiji it's to 3/14

Weirdly - Ireland games doesn't appear to have happened - https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/results/_/team/3/

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:42 am

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:31 am Re: Tompkins try, I do wonder if the influence of the NRL on Australian rugby has caused this.

In the NRL, unless a handling error goes really obviously backwards, it is given as a knock on. It's actually very strange, and the players just seem to accept it.

In real time it looked so wrong that I don't think Wales would have complained had it been given. That said, the ref was spot on and you play to the whistle.

Tomkins stopped playing too. But fact was the ref was correct and how many times to "pros" need to be told to play until the whistle?

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:17 pm

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:12 pm Any yellow cards against home teams this Autumn?

in the Eng/Sco/Wales v SA/NZ/Aus games there were 3 cards (89 pens against) against the home nations, 8 against the visitors (86 pens).
2 against Wales, 1 against England.

If you include Tonga & Fiji it's to 3/14

Weirdly - Ireland games doesn't appear to have happened - https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/results/_/team/3/

Sadly, ESPN's stats only work for Amazon matches at the moment, and Ireland were on regular TV. A year or two back they seemed to have lost the rights to a bunch of stuff so have been essentially useless.

Can we have a player moaning & b*tching thread where we highlight their errors?
Maybe even a coach one where we highlight daft selection calls (and rename it the Eddie Jones thread)?

If you accept that even international players will make mistakes, some of them calamitous, then we need to accept that referees will also make mistakes, some of them calamitous.
TMO review getting it wrong is another discussion but the game is already slow enough as it is. If anything, we need less, not more TMO.

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:04 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:16 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:12 pm Yeah I get it “Pipe down losers”

From an AB perspective I’ve nothing really I can moan about re reffing last night. I don’t think Barnes had a Homer.

I didn’t really follow the Aus game. But not surprised to see cards being dished out in true Wales home game form. It sounds like it was one sided officiating based on comments above.

Was at the Eng game and was very surprised not to see a card against the Etsebeth tackle. I get he was falling in to tackle which mitigated getting a straight red. Though yellow card against Nepo Laulala seemed of similar or lesser nature and impact.

Likewise cynical cards not really going against the home team.

Any yellow cards against home teams this Autumn?

The statement and query stand at odds

Obviously not paying attention or thought Will Stuart was playing for S Africa

Ha ha. Must have missed that.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:59 pm Can we have a player moaning & b*tching thread where we highlight their errors?

I think they go under the heading "match threads".

So with the Ewells thing.

Normally from what I’ve seen. It is adjudicated like this.

I’m sure I saw a ref thing on it recently.

Was it contact with high? - N - nothing
!
Y
Was there force ? - N - penalty
!
Y
Was there mitigating factors ? - Y - yellow card
!
N
Red


It was high. There was force. There were mitigating factors.

Ymx wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:11 pm So with the Ewells thing.

Normally from what I’ve seen. It is adjudicated like this.

I’m sure I saw a ref thing on it recently.

Was it contact with high? - N - nothing
!
Y
Was there force ? - N - penalty
!
Y
Was there mitigating factors ? - Y - yellow card
!
N
Red


It was high. There was force. There were mitigating factors.

Gets to step 2 and it's a No. If it's head to arm, rather than arm to head, it's not deemed to be foul play and therefore play on.

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:06 pmNot sure where we are going with this. I was responding to your comment “ World Rugby admitting the ref got it wrong in a Scotland match”

The point I am making is that there were no apologies.

World Rugby has in the past issued apologies where there were clear and significant officiating errors. They did not in this case. All that happened was the normal review. We only have Rennie's word for what was or was not said and that is hardly objective. By calling it an apology Rennie is making it sound like the egregious cases in the past where apologies were issued rather than the normal run of mill review.

I confess some bias in that Rennie left a bad smell behind when he left Glasgow.

In a kind of reverse bitch, I was pleased to see in two women's matches things that I often scream at my screen about.

1. Defender has fingers on ball ever so briefly, then arms arm pulled away by an attacking clearer, defender then goes in for another bite. Pinged for hands-in the ruck.

2. Defender going for a steal is first on the ball but knocks it forward inches in the attempt. Scrum advantage to the attacking team.

Niegs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:45 pm In a kind of reverse bitch, I was pleased to see in two women's matches things that I often scream at my screen about.

1. Defender has fingers on ball ever so briefly, then arms arm pulled away by an attacking clearer, defender then goes in for another bite. Pinged for hands-in the ruck.

2. Defender going for a steal is first on the ball but knocks it forward inches in the attempt. Scrum advantage to the attacking team.

Lingering hands in the ruck are one of the most aggravating things in rugby.

Well if we're bitching about ref's take a look at Fiji cynically targeting Georgian #8 - He was arguably the best player on the field.

Cynical no hands high tackles at 4:00' (Gorgadze with the scrum cap)


and 15:10'


He also missed many forward passes, the most blatantly obvious one at 32:55 2nd half


I don't know how all of them could possibly be missed by the ref, the TMO and the linesmen. The refs in amaetur divisions get these kind of things right.

These are just the most blatant ones, the quality of officiating was absolutely dire all game. But still you switch Georgia with any T1 team here and Fiji would get at least 2(6 if it was Wales) yellows, if not red and a ton more penalties. Then people wonder why Georgians are always pissed off at the refs.

It was a similar story against France although not so blatant, it was more a case of penalizing Georgia for every infringement while letting France off the hook for the exact same stuff.

You wait all year for 2-3 games and then such bullshit happens ofc you'll be pissed off. It's not like we have Super rugby or URC to go back to, we'll have to wait til summer to get proper rugby again and it'll be the same story there. absolutely maddening.

Watching that first clip, the tackler is upright, but there's hands wrapped, and i don't see obvious head on head?

2nd one looks like his change of direction just leads to a collision. Not really a tackle, but not a shoulder charge etc either.

3rd one looks backwards out of the hands/flat when considering momentum of the player. The passing player slows down if anything, and still ends up in line or ahead of where the catch is made.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:24 am Watching that first clip, the tackler is upright, but there's hands wrapped, and i don't see obvious head on head?

2nd one looks like his change of direction just leads to a collision. Not really a tackle, but not a shoulder charge etc either.

3rd one looks backwards out of the hands/flat when considering momentum of the player. The passing player slows down if anything, and still ends up in line or ahead of where the catch is made.

You're just being mean to Tier 2 fans

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:17 pm

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:12 pm Any yellow cards against home teams this Autumn?

in the Eng/Sco/Wales v SA/NZ/Aus games there were 3 cards (89 pens against) against the home nations, 8 against the visitors (86 pens).
2 against Wales, 1 against England.

If you include Tonga & Fiji it's to 3/14

Weirdly - Ireland games doesn't appear to have happened - https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/results/_/team/3/

It is a wee bit more nuanced than that though isn't it?

For example the one yellow card on Scotland v Aus/SA was for contact with the face by a player diving off his feet at a ruck (IIRC). Where as the yellow in Scotland v Japan was for a "totting up" of penalties rather than the offence itself. So that's one yellow of 1 offence and 1 for effectively 8 or so penalties.

I don't remember there being too many contentious card/no card incidents in Scotlands games really.

It wouldn't surprise me if refs were slightly influenced by the home crowds. To be fair to them, for some it'll be the first time they've been in front of 80k+ crowds for 2 years.

Big D wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:20 am

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:17 pm

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:12 pm Any yellow cards against home teams this Autumn?

in the Eng/Sco/Wales v SA/NZ/Aus games there were 3 cards (89 pens against) against the home nations, 8 against the visitors (86 pens).
2 against Wales, 1 against England.

If you include Tonga & Fiji it's to 3/14

Weirdly - Ireland games doesn't appear to have happened - https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/results/_/team/3/

It is a wee bit more nuanced than that though isn't it?

For example the one yellow card on Scotland v Aus/SA was for contact with the face by a player diving off his feet at a ruck (IIRC). Where as the yellow in Scotland v Japan was for a "totting up" of penalties rather than the offence itself. So that's one yellow of 1 offence and 1 for effectively 8 or so penalties.

I don't remember there being too many contentious card/no card incidents in Scotlands games really.

It wouldn't surprise me if refs were slightly influenced by the home crowds. To be fair to them, for some it'll be the first time they've been in front of 80k+ crowds for 2 years.

Don't bring perspective into this ffs

Big D wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:20 am

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:17 pm

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:12 pm Any yellow cards against home teams this Autumn?

in the Eng/Sco/Wales v SA/NZ/Aus games there were 3 cards (89 pens against) against the home nations, 8 against the visitors (86 pens).
2 against Wales, 1 against England.

If you include Tonga & Fiji it's to 3/14

Weirdly - Ireland games doesn't appear to have happened - https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/results/_/team/3/

It is a wee bit more nuanced than that though isn't it?

For example the one yellow card on Scotland v Aus/SA was for contact with the face by a player diving off his feet at a ruck (IIRC). Where as the yellow in Scotland v Japan was for a "totting up" of penalties rather than the offence itself. So that's one yellow of 1 offence and 1 for effectively 8 or so penalties.

I don't remember there being too many contentious card/no card incidents in Scotlands games really.

It wouldn't surprise me if refs were slightly influenced by the home crowds. To be fair to them, for some it'll be the first time they've been in front of 80k+ crowds for 2 years.

The comical ooooing and ahhhhing from the home crowd has become part of the game now.

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:17 am

Big D wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:20 am

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:17 pm

in the Eng/Sco/Wales v SA/NZ/Aus games there were 3 cards (89 pens against) against the home nations, 8 against the visitors (86 pens).
2 against Wales, 1 against England.

If you include Tonga & Fiji it's to 3/14

Weirdly - Ireland games doesn't appear to have happened - https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/results/_/team/3/

It is a wee bit more nuanced than that though isn't it?

For example the one yellow card on Scotland v Aus/SA was for contact with the face by a player diving off his feet at a ruck (IIRC). Where as the yellow in Scotland v Japan was for a "totting up" of penalties rather than the offence itself. So that's one yellow of 1 offence and 1 for effectively 8 or so penalties.

I don't remember there being too many contentious card/no card incidents in Scotlands games really.

It wouldn't surprise me if refs were slightly influenced by the home crowds. To be fair to them, for some it'll be the first time they've been in front of 80k+ crowds for 2 years.

The comical ooooing and ahhhhing from the home crowd has become part of the game now.

Absolutely, but refs/touch judges haven't had to stand in front of a crowd that size in a long time under pressure. Would be understandable if they were impacted (more so than usual) in this AIs IMO.

So when do World Rugby string up Rennie?

He'll probably cop some sort of disciplinary punishment. As far as we know he hasn't tried to blackmail anyone or released an hour long video, though.

Big D wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:46 am

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:17 am

Big D wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:20 am

It is a wee bit more nuanced than that though isn't it?

For example the one yellow card on Scotland v Aus/SA was for contact with the face by a player diving off his feet at a ruck (IIRC). Where as the yellow in Scotland v Japan was for a "totting up" of penalties rather than the offence itself. So that's one yellow of 1 offence and 1 for effectively 8 or so penalties.

I don't remember there being too many contentious card/no card incidents in Scotlands games really.

It wouldn't surprise me if refs were slightly influenced by the home crowds. To be fair to them, for some it'll be the first time they've been in front of 80k+ crowds for 2 years.

The comical ooooing and ahhhhing from the home crowd has become part of the game now.

Absolutely, but refs/touch judges haven't had to stand in front of a crowd that size in a long time under pressure. Would be understandable if they were impacted (more so than usual) in this AIs IMO.

Oh yes, I'm agreeing

Big D wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:46 am

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:17 am

Big D wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:20 am

It is a wee bit more nuanced than that though isn't it?

For example the one yellow card on Scotland v Aus/SA was for contact with the face by a player diving off his feet at a ruck (IIRC). Where as the yellow in Scotland v Japan was for a "totting up" of penalties rather than the offence itself. So that's one yellow of 1 offence and 1 for effectively 8 or so penalties.

I don't remember there being too many contentious card/no card incidents in Scotlands games really.

It wouldn't surprise me if refs were slightly influenced by the home crowds. To be fair to them, for some it'll be the first time they've been in front of 80k+ crowds for 2 years.

The comical ooooing and ahhhhing from the home crowd has become part of the game now.

Absolutely, but refs/touch judges haven't had to stand in front of a crowd that size in a long time under pressure. Would be understandable if they were impacted (more so than usual) in this AIs IMO.

It’s definitely a thing. The crowd baying for punishment does seem to influence. Its actually very pantomime in nature, and deliberate by an intoxicated crowd trying to affect the ref.

The home v away card count is telling.