A place where escape goats go to play
https://notplanetrugby.com/
Not allowing them to stay when they've arrived here illegally. Britain is seen as a soft touch, hence why they travel through Schengen to get here.Tackle it at source. What will keep Albanians at home?
This deterrent ( and a Wall!) doesn't stop hundreds of thousands from Latin America and elsewhere trying to illegally enter the country every year.So far this fiscal year (through April 2023), immigration judges have issued removal and voluntary departure orders in 39.8% of completed cases, totalling 135,284 deportation orders.
Slight difference being that these guys are free, and free to move about in public when not working, and will always return to their free accommodation and where they get their allowance.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:51 amI like your optimism, but I can't help but think back to what I've seen of old prison work parties in the States. What chiefly kept prisoners from running off was either being chained to each other or the presence of several armed corrections officers who would happily shoot them if it looked like someone was thinking about running off.Ymx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:40 amThe supervision piece could be handled by the existing council workers. I don’t see that as a problem. They’d need supervisors with know how. And the existing guys would then have added seniority. And finally our potholes would be patched and our walkways cleared of nettlessockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:29 am
One problem you'd have with putting them to work is sufficient supervision to ensure that some of them don't just slip off. I also don't trust governments not to implement such work parties in a way that wouldn't undercut the wages and employment of Brits already doing those things for councils.
Maybe trafficking is the wrong word as it somewhat suggests people being moved against their will, but it absolutely is gangs of the unscrupulous, if not outright criminals, facilitating the movement of the 'boat people'.
I guess however, what happens when someone refuses to work. Lose their allowance?
Rubbish, people like you take the liberty of cherry picking a small number from a very specific time to distract to say "Look, most of them are Albanians or the sorts! Not actual refugees!" Apart from, of course, that little more than half of the Albanians applications were being accepted (with most accepted being women and children) - but you already know this.
Lol, the Rwanda scheme is exactly the sort of thing that fits the narrative. It cost 120m to Rwanda and 30k per immigrant, and the plan was for a hotel and some new build households. Not scalable for 40,000 crossings, obviously.Ymx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:45 amI don’t think that’s true. The Rwanda scheme was not something which fits that narrative.If anything, it was too excessive. And I’m sure you’d agree our Home Secretary’s did want it to work.
But I’m not here to defend the government, except to hope for a way forward from here, and hope for constructive thoughts.
Tell us why the government are not to blame for this tsunami of immigrants.
I think it was largely expected to act as a deterrent to those leaving France, rather than expecting the same volumes through. And I’m pretty sure the volumes would have dropped drastically.I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:58 amLol, the Rwanda scheme is exactly the sort of thing that fits the narrative. It cost 120m to Rwanda and 30k per immigrant, and the plan was for a hotel and some new build households. Not scalable for 40,000 crossings, obviously.Ymx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:45 amI don’t think that’s true. The Rwanda scheme was not something which fits that narrative.If anything, it was too excessive. And I’m sure you’d agree our Home Secretary’s did want it to work.
But I’m not here to defend the government, except to hope for a way forward from here, and hope for constructive thoughts.
The solution is Pan-European cooperation which tbf Sunak is doing but they make sure to talk rwanda and prison barges as much as possible.
TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:55 amRubbish, people like you take the liberty of cherry picking a small number from a very specific time to distract to say "Look, most of them are Albanians or the sorts! Not actual refugees!" Apart from, of course, that little more than half of the Albanians applications were being accepted (with most accepted being women and children) - but you already know this.
And yes, our policy decisions now actively cower away from tackling the governance issues in places like Albania by plugging our ears and pretending issues on our doorstep don't exist and are for the "continentals" to sort out. It's literally the pillar objective of orgs like the EU in the Balkans, but something something Germans want to rule Europe so we shouldn't engage in that.
When faced with a choice at nearly every opportunity people with your "constructive" criticism have voted to put tripe in charge and abandon actual multilateralism.
You're not unique. You just want somewhere here to vent in the hope you won't get called out cheering on the people and policies in place contributing to the current state. You've got no interest in being told "But you voted for this, and are just asking for more of the same?" This isn't about the bored's opinions or interest on constructive views.
I don’t identify with this like you want me to, but fair play on a quality rant.That's utter bollocks, and I will take a random issue, one of many that the have caused.
This is only true based on the wages paid for the roles. Large scale immigration is a major, if not the major, cause of stagnant wages, lack of work related training and low productivity growth in this country. Hence why customer facing British businesses are so keen for more, it's easier to get someone new to work minimum wage and live in shit conditions than it is to pay them better and invest in their training. Hence also why the British economy tends to grow at pretty much the same rate as the population grows.We need immigration. There aren't enough people in the UK available to do a lot of jobs we need
Amen!Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:18 pmThis is only true based on the wages paid for the roles. Large scale immigration is a major, if not the major, cause of stagnant wages, lack of work related training and low productivity growth in this country. Hence why customer facing British businesses are so keen for more, it's easier to get someone new to work minimum wage and live in shit conditions than it is to pay them better and invest in their training. Hence also why the British economy tends to grow at pretty much the same rate as the population grows.We need immigration. There aren't enough people in the UK available to do a lot of jobs we need
Nah, it's numbers as well. If Immigration were the cause of stagnant wages we'd have piles of unemployed british people.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:18 pmThis is only true based on the wages paid for the roles. Large scale immigration is a major, if not the major, cause of stagnant wages, lack of work related training and low productivity growth in this country. Hence why customer facing British businesses are so keen for more, it's easier to get someone new to work minimum wage and live in shit conditions than it is to pay them better and invest in their training. Hence also why the British economy tends to grow at pretty much the same rate as the population grows.We need immigration. There aren't enough people in the UK available to do a lot of jobs we need
Not sure that follows at all. More low paid workers = less need for technological/productive change = stable-ish employment for those already in it but at stagnant wage levels and often leaving people underemployed compared to their capabilities/ambitions. Jobs aren't being 'stolen', they're just going nowhere. Britain has some of the lowest levels of automation in the developed world.Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:25 pmNah, it's numbers as well. If Immigration were the cause of stagnant wages we'd have piles of unemployed british people.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:18 pmThis is only true based on the wages paid for the roles. Large scale immigration is a major, if not the major, cause of stagnant wages, lack of work related training and low productivity growth in this country. Hence why customer facing British businesses are so keen for more, it's easier to get someone new to work minimum wage and live in shit conditions than it is to pay them better and invest in their training. Hence also why the British economy tends to grow at pretty much the same rate as the population grows.We need immigration. There aren't enough people in the UK available to do a lot of jobs we need
Pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the problem here I'm afraid. Every European country has a problem with migrants. The countries with the largest problems are Italy/Greece and. It's in everyone in the EUs interests to stop migrants in Africa/Asia and if not Turkey - see the amount of problems the EU governments have with Erdogan over this.Ymx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:03 pmI think it was largely expected to act as a deterrent to those leaving France, rather than expecting the same volumes through. And I’m pretty sure the volumes would have dropped drastically.I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:58 amLol, the Rwanda scheme is exactly the sort of thing that fits the narrative. It cost 120m to Rwanda and 30k per immigrant, and the plan was for a hotel and some new build households. Not scalable for 40,000 crossings, obviously.Ymx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:45 am
I don’t think that’s true. The Rwanda scheme was not something which fits that narrative.If anything, it was too excessive. And I’m sure you’d agree our Home Secretary’s did want it to work.
But I’m not here to defend the government, except to hope for a way forward from here, and hope for constructive thoughts.
The solution is Pan-European cooperation which tbf Sunak is doing but they make sure to talk rwanda and prison barges as much as possible.
The pan-European cooperation is difficult as basically why would they? If these economic migrants are attempting to leave your country, why are you going to want to stop them.
If we could get a deal to return all dinghys directly to France we would bite at the chance. But they’d not agree to that I’m sure.
The Australian method seems to have been the only successful strategy.
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:12 pmNot sure that follows at all. More low paid workers = less need for technological/productive change = stable-ish employment for those already in it but at stagnant wage levels and often leaving people underemployed compared to their capabilities/ambitions. Jobs aren't being 'stolen', they're just going nowhere. Britain has some of the lowest levels of automation in the developed world.Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:25 pmNah, it's numbers as well. If Immigration were the cause of stagnant wages we'd have piles of unemployed british people.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:18 pm
This is only true based on the wages paid for the roles. Large scale immigration is a major, if not the major, cause of stagnant wages, lack of work related training and low productivity growth in this country. Hence why customer facing British businesses are so keen for more, it's easier to get someone new to work minimum wage and live in shit conditions than it is to pay them better and invest in their training. Hence also why the British economy tends to grow at pretty much the same rate as the population grows.
We don't need bar staff/manual car washers etc to run an economy (two examples pulled out my arse, not intended to be scientific, but as for the first can we all at least agree to close the economy to Australians until we work out what the hell is going on), it is just easier to employ more of them than invest for any business, hence why they lobby for more and more people willing to work for shit wages in shit conditions in shit housing.
Yes - and people never seem to account for the fact that immigrants get old tootc27 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:24 pmPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:12 pmNot sure that follows at all. More low paid workers = less need for technological/productive change = stable-ish employment for those already in it but at stagnant wage levels and often leaving people underemployed compared to their capabilities/ambitions. Jobs aren't being 'stolen', they're just going nowhere. Britain has some of the lowest levels of automation in the developed world.
We don't need bar staff/manual car washers etc to run an economy (two examples pulled out my arse, not intended to be scientific, but as for the first can we all at least agree to close the economy to Australians until we work out what the hell is going on), it is just easier to employ more of them than invest for any business, hence why they lobby for more and more people willing to work for shit wages in shit conditions in shit housing.
It also a demographic pyramid scheme - I mean if we were the sort of country that was building a million new houses every year and high speed rail/transport links everywhere it would not matter but the current chosen course seems to be a Island wide retirement home for boomers
Violent clashes with asylum seekers on French beaches will result in an officer’s death, Border Force fears
Hugo Gye - 5h ago
Patrol officers risk being killed in France as encounters with asylum seekers grow more violent, Border Force insiders fear.
The proportion of people trying to cross the Channel in dangerous small boats who are intercepted by the police before they can take to the water has grown in recent months.
That is believed to be a result of the French authorities getting greater resources, including from the UK Government – as well as a crackdown on TikTok videos promoting Channel crossings.
The video app now automatically removes clips that contain certain keywords known to feature in the ads posted by people smugglers who are trying to recruit migrants for the €3,000 journey to the UK.
But the increased likelihood that an attempt to cross will be unsuccessful has apparently made some migrants – who now need to make four or five tries before they actually reach England – increasingly desperate.
A Border Force source said: “It’s only a matter of time before an officer is killed.” Some asylum seekers carry knives and other weapons to prevent officers from stopping them taking to boats and launching into the Channel.
The French authorities – who are now joined by British officers on their patrols, although the UK representatives cannot get involved directly in operations – are attempting to disrupt the organised gangs which are seen as being behind the surge in crossings over the past few years.
Undercover police now visit service stations, hotels and lay-bys sometimes as far away as the border with Belgium to pick up migrants who are waiting to cross the Channel.
Not to get all tinfoil, but shirley, this a simple game considering all the intelligence that's out theresockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:15 am
We should be doing much more to target the trafficking gangs creating the small boat problem.
You did!.....mat the expat wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:51 amNot to get all tinfoil, but shirley, this a simple game considering all the intelligence that's out theresockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:15 am
We should be doing much more to target the trafficking gangs creating the small boat problem.
Lack of intent is the issue
As for refugees - they will always come to a first world country. No point worrying about it beyond being humane.
If you don't like it, move to a lower tier country
Can that be true?mat the expat wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:51 am
As for refugees - they will always come to a first world country.
As per official government figures 92% of small boats arrivals that were processed in 2022 (the last full year of data) were successful in their asylum applications so successfully met the criteria for claiming asylum as either refugees from war, oppression or sexual violence etc.Ymx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:25 am I’ll open.
There are people with a genuine need, but I don’t think the majority of these boat people who throw their ids/passports away are here for the right reasons.
I feel these are mostly young men who are sold on the idea of a paid for stint. Many of them are bad actors, and the reason they aren’t staying in France is because they only get tents over there.
I personally hope we have a system where we open an office in France for processing them. Those who still venture over on boats should be able to be returned to France for processing.
For those who are over here currently, rather than have them sitting around in hotels getting bored, we should make use of them with the councils. Repairing potholes, clearing paths, weeds. Positively contributing to the community’s they have been dropped in to, during the application process.
Your thoughts on how this is dealt with?
Or do you not even see a problem?
I think your numbers are very wrong.
At least six out of ten (60%) of all those who made the dangerous Channel crossing to the UK in small boats last year will be recognised as refugees through the asylum process, new analysis from the Refugee Council shows.
The analysis, based on Home Office data, finds that 25,119 of the 45,746 men, women and children who made the journey in 2022 would be allowed to stay in the UK as refugees.
At the same time the numbers of people starting new lives in the UK under formal resettlement programmes such as family reunion have fallen dramatically – suggesting that more people seeking refugee status are taking the dangerous Channel journey.
The report reveals that most of those crossing the Channel are people fleeing war-torn or oppressive countries where no safe and formal routes such as refugee visas exist for making an asylum claim in the UK. This is in contrast to those escaping the war in Ukraine, where more than 200,000 visas have been issued under a UK refugee scheme.
The report shows that safe routes for the main nationalities crossing the channel have been drastically reduced – resettlement numbers are 75 per cent lower than in 2019 and the number of family reunion visas issued is 36 per cent below the pre-pandemic level. For example, thousands of Iranians crossed the channel but just nine were resettled to the UK between January and September 2022.
The last full year of data is for the year to June 2022 (due to reporting lag and annual reporting cycles this dataset was released in Feb this year), in that year 15k asylum decisions were made concerning those arriving in small boats, 76% were successful with their initial applications, of the 24% rejected at their initial application two thirds were overturned on appeal, so in total 92% of applicants were successful. Since 2018 94% of small boats arrivals have made asylum applications.Ymx wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:19 pmI think your numbers are very wrong.
Of those entering by boat, in 2022, it was more like 60%.
There is actually a large backlog now baked in to the system. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I expect those taking a longer time could well be those who threw their ids away. I’m just speculating though. So the true legitimate refugee numbers could be well South of 60%.
At least six out of ten (60%) of all those who made the dangerous Channel crossing to the UK in small boats last year will be recognised as refugees through the asylum process, new analysis from the Refugee Council shows.
The analysis, based on Home Office data, finds that 25,119 of the 45,746 men, women and children who made the journey in 2022 would be allowed to stay in the UK as refugees.
At the same time the numbers of people starting new lives in the UK under formal resettlement programmes such as family reunion have fallen dramatically – suggesting that more people seeking refugee status are taking the dangerous Channel journey.
The report reveals that most of those crossing the Channel are people fleeing war-torn or oppressive countries where no safe and formal routes such as refugee visas exist for making an asylum claim in the UK. This is in contrast to those escaping the war in Ukraine, where more than 200,000 visas have been issued under a UK refugee scheme.
The report shows that safe routes for the main nationalities crossing the channel have been drastically reduced – resettlement numbers are 75 per cent lower than in 2019 and the number of family reunion visas issued is 36 per cent below the pre-pandemic level. For example, thousands of Iranians crossed the channel but just nine were resettled to the UK between January and September 2022.
Some spectacular fearmongering in that articleYmx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:57 pm Sounds like the French are putting in more effort than I thought.
Violent clashes with asylum seekers on French beaches will result in an officer’s death, Border Force fears
Hugo Gye - 5h ago
Patrol officers risk being killed in France as encounters with asylum seekers grow more violent, Border Force insiders fear.
The proportion of people trying to cross the Channel in dangerous small boats who are intercepted by the police before they can take to the water has grown in recent months.
That is believed to be a result of the French authorities getting greater resources, including from the UK Government – as well as a crackdown on TikTok videos promoting Channel crossings.
The video app now automatically removes clips that contain certain keywords known to feature in the ads posted by people smugglers who are trying to recruit migrants for the €3,000 journey to the UK.
But the increased likelihood that an attempt to cross will be unsuccessful has apparently made some migrants – who now need to make four or five tries before they actually reach England – increasingly desperate.
A Border Force source said: “It’s only a matter of time before an officer is killed.” Some asylum seekers carry knives and other weapons to prevent officers from stopping them taking to boats and launching into the Channel.
The French authorities – who are now joined by British officers on their patrols, although the UK representatives cannot get involved directly in operations – are attempting to disrupt the organised gangs which are seen as being behind the surge in crossings over the past few years.
Undercover police now visit service stations, hotels and lay-bys sometimes as far away as the border with Belgium to pick up migrants who are waiting to cross the Channel.
