World Rugby considering banningTrans women competing in Women's rugby

[Steve]

Well this is interesting. Rugby Canada usually do whatever WR says, but say they don't agree with this ...

https://www.rugbyontario.com/news-detai ... 93/?tag_id

Canada a rugby powerhouse pouring slurry from the cheap seats.


Lions don't care for the opinions of lambs. They can lick our collective apple bags with that stance.

[Niegs]

Well this is interesting. Rugby Canada usually do whatever WR says, but say they don't agree with this ...

https://www.rugbyontario.com/news-detai ... 93/?tag_id

Canada a rugby powerhouse pouring slurry from the cheap seats.


Lions don't care for the opinions of lambs. They can lick our collective apple bags with that stance.

I imagine it's for that reason that they've come out with it. Inclusion looks better PR than exclusion and it's not been an issue, even with a trans woman being one of the strongest players in last year's championship team. Being at the Premier level, her advantages aren't as apparent if she was playing for a small club in the 10-a-side third tier.

Any guess which one she is?

[Steve]

Well this is interesting. Rugby Canada usually do whatever WR says, but say they don't agree with this ...

https://www.rugbyontario.com/news-detai ... 93/?tag_id

Canada a rugby powerhouse pouring slurry from the cheap seats.


Lions don't care for the opinions of lambs. They can lick our collective apple bags with that stance.

I imagine it's for that reason that they've come out with it. Inclusion looks better PR than exclusion and it's not been an issue, even with a trans woman being one of the strongest players in last year's championship team. Being at the Premier level, her advantages aren't as apparent if she was playing for a small club in the 10-a-side third tier.

Any guess which one she is?

Back row near the middle?

[eldanielfire]

Rather than create another thread, an interesting article about how many companies and actovosts are suddenly scrubbing some pro-Trans articles, social media posts and statements, usually about children being transitioned and the organisation that encouraged that 'Mermaids', from their servers and appear to be taking a different position on the matter now:

https://savageminds.substack.com/p/the- ... -senseless

A key part is:

For those who have pushed back against the onslaught of gender ideology that has permeated the neoliberal left over the past twenty years, many critics of this era’s embrace of identity politics who refuse to be silenced have either taken to social media or they have published blog posts under assumed names. Due to the mounting authoritarianism from the left on this subject whereby individuals have faced losing income, being fired from their positions entirely, or being socially and politically ostracised, the protest to the official narratives of gender ideology has been emanating from unofficial spaces.

Twitter and Facebook have been the two primary social media spaces where feminists and trans ideologues alike have created secret groups in an attempt to strategise, dialogue, and establish actions. It would be an understatement to state that the wave has not only turned in the favour of these feminists, but COVID-19 has assisted the many who previously doubted the importance of material reality, to understand the difference between identity as feeling and the somatic reality of male versus female, a virus versus a unicorn. I have been in many of the gender-critical groups that are composed of only women, only radical feminists, only leftists, and myriad other variations on a theme. Where women and men from the left have joined forces to fight what they perceive as an ideological backwater of men’s rights activism, this fourth wave of feminism has teeth and it is speaking clearly to what resoundingly appears to be a religious ideology of gender.

Now that the NHS and the BBC have radically transformed their websites in recent weeks to update the information on gender dysphoria to include mentioning childhood desistance and ROGD (rapid-onset gender dysphoria), there is now a mass wiping of servers of these and other institutions of all references to Mermaids, a UK-based lobby group and NGO that has long identified its constituency as “transgender children” and their parents. And Mermaids is no outlier in the industry that seeks the expansion of childhood medical “gender transition” as it has consistently encouraged policy changes within the British government and its agencies to effect the quickest possible transition times of the highest number of children with the fewest safeguards in place. In 2018, Mermaids received £500,000 in lottery funding to this end.

So how is it that in less than two years, Mermaids has gone from being the star charity ostensibly championing the rights of children to now being silently removed from the BBC and NHS websites in their information and support sections as all the claims that puberty blockers such as Lupron are “reversible” have also disappeared? More importantly, why is it now commonplace in recent weeks that the media and public figures as well as private and public institutions have in stealth removed mention of Mermaids and the cheerleading of “childhood transition” from their accounts or servers as if a damnatio memoriae rivalling China’s removal of Zhao Ziyang from most every public record available in China?

As I said a while ago, a lot of people jumped on the Trans-bandwagon out of fear of "being on the wrong side of history" and thinking (or not thinking on the issue) it would be the new 'civil rights cause' now society is broadly accepting of people of other ethnic backgrounds and sexuality. It shows that many people, especially people in public life, are more about virtue signalling or being seen to be on the right side, rather than thinking about a topic and the evidence and evaluating what the best way forward is because it is the right thing to do.

That's not saying Trans issues are not a bit more tricky to revolve around. But the issue of biologically born men in women's sport and the need for women's safe places are hardly parts of the debate that requires much more than common sense.

[Slick]

Beard and cap

[TB63]

Canada a rugby powerhouse pouring slurry from the cheap seats.


Lions don't care for the opinions of lambs. They can lick our collective apple bags with that stance.

I imagine it's for that reason that they've come out with it. Inclusion looks better PR than exclusion and it's not been an issue, even with a trans woman being one of the strongest players in last year's championship team. Being at the Premier level, her advantages aren't as apparent if she was playing for a small club in the 10-a-side third tier.

Any guess which one she is?

Back row near the middle?

Back row, right hand side, baseball cap and a beard?..

[Steve]

Rather than create another thread, an interesting article about how many companies and actovosts are suddenly scrubbing some pro-Trans articles, social media posts and statements, usually about children being transitioned and the organisation that encouraged that 'Mermaids', from their servers and appear to be taking a different position on the matter now:

https://savageminds.substack.com/p/the- ... -senseless

A key part is:

For those who have pushed back against the onslaught of gender ideology that has permeated the neoliberal left over the past twenty years, many critics of this era’s embrace of identity politics who refuse to be silenced have either taken to social media or they have published blog posts under assumed names. Due to the mounting authoritarianism from the left on this subject whereby individuals have faced losing income, being fired from their positions entirely, or being socially and politically ostracised, the protest to the official narratives of gender ideology has been emanating from unofficial spaces.

Twitter and Facebook have been the two primary social media spaces where feminists and trans ideologues alike have created secret groups in an attempt to strategise, dialogue, and establish actions. It would be an understatement to state that the wave has not only turned in the favour of these feminists, but COVID-19 has assisted the many who previously doubted the importance of material reality, to understand the difference between identity as feeling and the somatic reality of male versus female, a virus versus a unicorn. I have been in many of the gender-critical groups that are composed of only women, only radical feminists, only leftists, and myriad other variations on a theme. Where women and men from the left have joined forces to fight what they perceive as an ideological backwater of men’s rights activism, this fourth wave of feminism has teeth and it is speaking clearly to what resoundingly appears to be a religious ideology of gender.

Now that the NHS and the BBC have radically transformed their websites in recent weeks to update the information on gender dysphoria to include mentioning childhood desistance and ROGD (rapid-onset gender dysphoria), there is now a mass wiping of servers of these and other institutions of all references to Mermaids, a UK-based lobby group and NGO that has long identified its constituency as “transgender children” and their parents. And Mermaids is no outlier in the industry that seeks the expansion of childhood medical “gender transition” as it has consistently encouraged policy changes within the British government and its agencies to effect the quickest possible transition times of the highest number of children with the fewest safeguards in place. In 2018, Mermaids received £500,000 in lottery funding to this end.

So how is it that in less than two years, Mermaids has gone from being the star charity ostensibly championing the rights of children to now being silently removed from the BBC and NHS websites in their information and support sections as all the claims that puberty blockers such as Lupron are “reversible” have also disappeared? More importantly, why is it now commonplace in recent weeks that the media and public figures as well as private and public institutions have in stealth removed mention of Mermaids and the cheerleading of “childhood transition” from their accounts or servers as if a damnatio memoriae rivalling China’s removal of Zhao Ziyang from most every public record available in China?

As I said a while ago, a lot of people jumped on the Trans-bandwagon out of fear of "being on the wrong side of history" and thinking (or not thinking on the issue) it would be the new 'civil rights cause' now society is broadly accepting of people of other ethnic backgrounds and sexuality. It shows that many people, especially people in public life, are more about virtue signalling or being seen to be on the right side, rather than thinking about a topic and the evidence and evaluating what the best way forward is because it is the right thing to do.

That's not saying Trans issues are not a bit more tricky to revolve around. But the issue of biologically born men in women's sport and the need for women's safe places are hardly parts of the debate that requires much more than common sense.

The madness of crowds by Douglas Murray. Essential reading on this topic.

[Steve]

I imagine it's for that reason that they've come out with it. Inclusion looks better PR than exclusion and it's not been an issue, even with a trans woman being one of the strongest players in last year's championship team. Being at the Premier level, her advantages aren't as apparent if she was playing for a small club in the 10-a-side third tier.

Any guess which one she is?

Back row near the middle?

Back row, right hand side, baseball cap and a beard?..

He's the coach or physio surely?

[eldanielfire]

Back row near the middle?

Back row, right hand side, baseball cap and a beard?..

He's the coach or physio surely?

That's the joke.

[Niegs]

Steve's first answer is actually closest, but which one specifically?

She's definitely bigger and stronger than the vast majority, but it's not like Sonny Bill playing against Taranaki U9s.

[NotNaki]

I reckon if I went Trans I would have almost made the Taranaki Under 9s Girl's 3rd XV. But in fairness those girls were pretty tough

[Steve]

6th or 7th from the left . I apologise in advance for whomever i am doing a disservice to.

[Niegs]

6th or 7th from the left . I apologise in advance for whomever i am doing a disservice to.

7th, with the braids.

But I can see where critics say someone who was born and grew up as a man has an advantage. I'm not sure what distinctions are in place to draw a line (and I've heard there are some for her around testosterone levels, I think?) ... but she trains a lot too and is clearly built.

[Fangle]

There could be problems when the Canadian women play international games.

[MitchieRcaw]

New Zealand Rugby has had a look and is reviewing but have said it will not look to ban trans-athletes from women’s competitions:

".... the review will address contact rugby but it will not look to ban trans-athletes from women’s competitions.
It’s quite complex. We got to make sure we do appropriate due diligence and care around this decision,” she said.
“[The World Rugby guidelines] look at some restrictions for trans-women. World Rugby has encouraged us all to come up with a policy that is appropriate for our market.” https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/300062487 ... omens-game

Trans people exist regardless of anyone's ideology. I can certainly understand WR concerns at higher levels of women's rugby - but I'd have thought a more inclusive, nuanced, local country approach might have been more appropriate at lower levels. Which is probably what's going to happen anyway judging by Canada and NZ.

I mean you get some huge Samoan bloke running at skinny Pakeha now in men's rugby who's 40% bigger and 30% stronger, no one say's it's unfair, at least not since England had the Vunipolas and Tuilagi

I'm not saying it's easy, just that it's better to have a starting point of inclusivity and accommodation "we'll try to fit you in" at non-elite levels.
Especially as rugby IS supposed to be an inclusive sport. Also we're not really talking too many folk here I'd suggest??

Elite and pro/semi-pro ... yeah nah. At a certain level WR have a valid point too.

[Niegs]

There could be problems when the Canadian women play international games.

I was thinking about that, too. They look good domestically (and, to be honest, I've been going on for ages that they pay more attention to the national teams than the community game), but might not be able to pick some talent for the red jersey. And this player above does want to represent Canada (from memory, kind of a lone wolf type player, though, which is not what you want in your 13).

[MitchieRcaw]

Rather than create another thread, an interesting article about how many companies and actovosts are suddenly scrubbing some pro-Trans articles, social media posts and statements, usually about children being transitioned and the organisation that encouraged that 'Mermaids', from their servers and appear to be taking a different position on the matter now:

https://savageminds.substack.com/p/the- ... -senseless
...

As I said a while ago, a lot of people jumped on the Trans-bandwagon out of fear of "being on the wrong side of history" and thinking (or not thinking on the issue) it would be the new 'civil rights cause' now society is broadly accepting of people of other ethnic backgrounds and sexuality. It shows that many people, especially people in public life, are more about virtue signalling or being seen to be on the right side, rather than thinking about a topic and the evidence and evaluating what the best way forward is because it is the right thing to do.

That's not saying Trans issues are not a bit more tricky to revolve around. But the issue of biologically born men in women's sport and the need for women's safe places are hardly parts of the debate that requires much more than common sense.

I read this article and it makes some fair points on ideology and society in general but kind of ignores that trans and non-binary people are well ... just people and part of our society too. They are somewhere between 0.3-0.6% of the population from the reading I've done ... this might be conservative as it was a historical international meta review of previous research, I'd have to find the paper.

Most trans are not trans activists. And their suicide and suicide attempt rates are horrendous. And different degrees of transition (hormones, blockers, top surgery, bottom surgery etc) helps both binary trans, also some identifications of non-binary.

What we don't know really especially with teenagers and younger -
- Why the huge increase in numbers of people identifying as trans and non-binary and with gender dysphoria? Of course increasing awareness and societal acceptance is part of that but probably not all imo.
- Why the even huger increase in F2M cases, which is now a lot bigger than M2F in the UK?
- The long-term effect of "puberty blockers" on kids. Lupron is mentioned but I'm not sure if that's used much in the UK tbh, I need to check this out as it's a new drug to me.
- Certainly for M2F spironolactone and cyproterone acetate have been prescribed for decades as T(estosterone)-blockers for post-puberty transition and there's lots of research out there including known side effects, like any other drug. Pre-puberty? Again not sure.

Regardless ... it's reasonable to assume a percentage of those increasing numbers with gender dysphoria will be trans, and earlier treatment/intervention (treatment normally falls within international "WPATH" guidelines from memory) for them is beneficial. There are different views on how early that treatment should start, the process, and the extent of gatekeeping. And of course there is a financial cost - to the NHS in the UK. UK waiting lists are huge and growing and trans people who can afford it (or their parents) use private healthcare out of desperation because else they are waiting years at the moment.

These I reckon are the BIG issues and there's a balance to be found - but at the moment between the hysterical twittering of both TERFs and trans-activists, we all end up talking about toilets, and male-rapists-and-perverts going in toilets wearing dresses, and trans athletes. Yes, these are issues... but not the big ones imho.

Discuss ...

[Carter's Choice]

So Rugby Australia is one of 7 Australian sports bodies to come out today in support of Trans inclusion. How does this reconcile with WR's proposed laws which would force Trans people to play with and against their dead gender?

Australia's sporting codes commit to inclusion of trans and gender diverse athletes
BY JOHN BALDOCK
Source: SBS

The commitment by eight peak sporting bodies to support the wider inclusion of trans and gender diverse people has been hailed as a world first.

Spearheaded by the Pride in Sport program, the aim is to build on the momentum created by the actions of eight sporting codes: the AFL, Netball Australia, Hockey Australia, Rugby Australia, Tennis Australia, Touch Football Australia, UniSport Australia and Water Polo Australia.

The Pride in Sport National Program Manager Beau Newell said sport can be pivotal to helping people integrate more fully into society.

"Sport is for everyone... Sport is a fundamental human right and these national sporting bodies are ensuring that participation is a reality for the trans and gender-diverse community."

Roxy Tickle is one of the athletes the program is bringing into the fold.

Now 50 years old, she has undergone four years of medical and hormonal treatments.

Having completed that personal journey, Ms Tickle is re-discovering her love of hockey, a sport she last experienced as a man back in her twenties.

"I love playing hockey with my teammates. We have a great time. We run around and be silly on the field and we love playing together so much. It's been a wonderful opportunity to start playing hockey again."

The initiative has also won the support of former Australia cricketer Alex Blackwell and former NRL player Ian Roberts, who are co-patrons of the project.

Mr Roberts suffered much homophobic abuse while playing Rugby League and he said he is more than happy to support the transgender community today.

"These people are suffering and they shouldn't be suffering. We're all family, we're all this big rainbow family.

"It's not LBGTQI, it's our community this is, and we're all part of the community. And trans and gender-diverse people are part of it."

Inspired by the community building, Touch Football Australia said it is considering launching a Pride Cup, which will include transgender players.

The idea is being borrowed from Rugby Union's Bingham Cup, an international tournament for gay players that has grown into one of the largest rugby tournaments in the world.

We were at the Pride in Sport awards dinner last night and we've got to be better in that space," Touch Football Australia CEO Jamie O'Connor said.

"I had our commercial manager with me at the time and I've sent him away to start having some conversations around how we might get a Pride Cup for touch football up and running in 2021."

Beau Newell is hoping the co-ordinated push for wider acceptance will keep growing.

"We're seeing those eight sports launch their respective governance as well as the additional 13 sporting organisations that have committed to working on their guidelines moving forward. It's groundbreaking. It's a world first."

There does remain some opposition to transgender athletes playing in female sport, mainly from a safety perspective.

Transgender Aussie rules player Hannah Mouncey was barred and subsequently gave up on competing in the AFLW two years ago.

But Ms Tickle believes most people have a more open attitude to people like her playing sport.

"They are the minority. Today there's people from corporate Australia, people from the national sporting organisations, who are saying loud and clear, trans and gender-diverse people should be playing sport. It is good for them. It is good for everybody."

[Slick]

You could get a trans team to make up the numbers in the Super Rugby league?

[Carter's Choice]

You could get a trans team to make up the numbers in the Super Rugby league?

They'd still probably beat Trevisio and Zebre

[Slick]

You could get a trans team to make up the numbers in the Super Rugby league?

They'd still probably beat Trevisio and Zebre

true enough

[Niegs]

Dr Ross Tucker has released a bunch of info on what WR's been doing on this issue...



https://podcasts.apple.com/za/podcast/w ... 0497073938

https://playerwelfare.worldrugby.org/?subsection=84

[Raggs]

I've followed Ross Tucker for a while on this, though not checked out that video yet.

My opinion has changed a bit though. I agree with WR blocking it at international level. Studies show that trans m2f retain a lot of strength, and would end up in an extremely high percentile for womens strength. To have the skill to then play at an international level, they'd have been needing to play the sport for some time (or at least some form of elite sport), meaning they'd have already been at a high level for a man.

However, at club level, I have far less of an issue, if there's a half decent women system in place.

Reasoning is this. I can play at level 11 in England, but if I was to try and play at level 5+ (and I'm being very generous to myself here...) I'd be physically outmatched by a massive degree I suspect. So if a m2f wished to play community rugby, they would in theory end up at a level where their physicality was no longer completely out of sync with the others, thus reducing safety/health concerns.

This accommodation of physical abilities can be accommodated far more easily in a community game with a few leagues in place, than it could be at an international level.

[Niegs]

I watched the video, which made a very strong case that even with bringing T levels down, there's a strong chance the individual has gained an advantage before transition that either only slightly or not at all is reduced. That's a very damning bit of science against inclusion. I'm now on the survey results and, being anonymous, you can see that the majority of women's internationals either don't want them included or want to see the science (and the science, I think, would put them into that category.

... interestingly, when noting their own gender, a handful either weren't aware of what 'cisgender female' meant (despite the description included) or took a stance and refused to use the label because pretty much all who indicated 'other' wrote 'female' in the description box.

In the video, Dr Tucker says the FAQ on this study indicates why they aren't fully in support of a 'case-by-case' approach (which is what I'd been saying, and now slowly pulling away from). I can't seem to find it though.

[Niegs]

Found the FAQs... https://playerwelfare.worldrugby.org/?documentid=230

Makes five very strong points against case-by-case, as far as I'm concerned. They're still leaving it open for unions to decide for themselves, but there's some pretty compelling evidence here that policymakers / insurance people will not ignore.

[sockwithaticket]

I watched the video, which made a very strong case that even with bringing T levels down, there's a strong chance the individual has gained an advantage before transition that either only slightly or not at all is reduced. That's a very damning bit of science against inclusion. I'm now on the survey results and, being anonymous, you can see that the majority of women's internationals either don't want them included or want to see the science (and the science, I think, would put them into that category.

... interestingly, when noting their own gender, a handful either weren't aware of what 'cisgender female' meant (despite the description included) or took a stance and refused to use the label because pretty much all who indicated 'other' wrote 'female' in the description box.

In the video, Dr Tucker says the FAQ on this study indicates why they aren't fully in support of a 'case-by-case' approach (which is what I'd been saying, and now slowly pulling away from). I can't seem to find it though.

I'm surprised at how few people seem aware of the extent of physiological differences between those who go through male and female puberty. Testosterone levels are the least of it, it even extends into things like tendon tensity. I've been against male to female trans people playing against biological women from the start because of this.

Conversely, I'm not at all surprised to see the female responses when they have anonymity and no fear of being branded a TERF by twitter extremists. Nor that many of them don't know or reject cis.

A big motivator of this work is to protect WR from injury liability much like the recent focus on measures to reduce concussion incidence/protect players' heads. From their standpoint they've made their recommendation and if individual unions choose to ignore this then liability switches to them.

[Niegs]

If you've been following the story about the New Zealand weightlifter, Dr Tucker's podcast addresses some of the misinformation that gets tossed out in pushing transwomen inclusion.

https://play.acast.com/s/realscienceofs ... omenssport

[Niegs]

Dr Tucker talking about sport UK's recently-released guidelines saying you can't effectively balance inclusion and fairness to women. Strong statement at the end about this kind of thing, hopefully, allowing others to speak out without fear of backlash.

[eldanielfire]

I do think you can BE inclusive and safe, just base the criteria on biological sex. I believe Canada's Olympic football team has a trans man, but no issue occurred as they played with their biological sex.