The official NPR Audiophile thread.

[Torquemada 1420]

another example. Decided I wanted to try the best cheap MC cart there is. Googled around and the reviews all lead back to Denon DL-110. A moving coil cart that you cannot switch out a new stylus for. Once it's worn out, that's it, another $250 please. They last about 2,000 hours. It is literally like a junkie paying for high grade shit to needle into their blood. After my first one wore out I swore to myself, I'm not an audiophile, not that fussy surely, this $30 Audio Technica one over here will do me, good reviews, clicked buy, hooked it up, didnt even last 30 seconds. Even before breaking it in it was obvious the sound was a massive downgrade from the Denon. Couldnt do it. Sorry. Just cannot go back.

Have found the Ortofon 2M (red) a good match for many "budget" to mid-priced systems. Seems to like working with Rega Planars.

MC really is for "high-end" stuff. They are incredibly fussy, a bitch to set up and, obviously, need a sh*t load more amplification due to their low output. It's not a great analogy but a bit like an exotic performance car: expensive, requires a lot of fettling, can be damaged easily and for the majority of drivers, the inconveniences would never be offset by the benefits. I note the Denon is HOMC and so (presumably) gets by the need for pre-amp (MC/phono)?

[Torquemada 1420]

for about 1 year, almost every 2nd week on the way to work, I would pop into a recycled store to stealthily ogle some nutty Technics speakers they had there. Priced at 38,000 yen ($380) I just could not decide whether to buy them or not. Will they be better than my Sonabs? The Sonabs will be more detailed but ffs, just look at these things. The staff mustve seen me as a total sad tragic. Of course, I was, I knew it, but OMG, just look at the cunts. In the end I splurged, knew it might've been a once in a lifetime opportunity, not something you see every day etc etc. Made in 1978, production of course long since ceased. In the end I hooked them up in tandem with the Sonabs and just crank all fucken 4 toegether at once. Probably breaking some anal cunt audiophile rule but fuckit

The "Rega Rule" again. Appreciate that often it's impossible to try any prospective buys with your own kit first.

[Dismal Pillock]

current main #1 TT is my Pioneer PL-50. Retailed for about 80,000 yen ($800) in 1980. I paid 4,000 yen ($40) from a used record store. Works great, no temptation to upgrade

[A6D6E6]

I didn't realise that audiophile amps "had a sound" in the same way that guitar amps do - I presumed that audiophile amps were all about "perfect reproduction of the original recording" (whatever that means).

I'd never really considered it before, but you are right - the technology of kemper etc could make audiophile amps (and speakers) obsolete.

The Amp is what takes the input and boosts it to drive (usually: I'm not talking about pre-amps but the impact is the same) the speakers. Anything taking any analogue signal through circuitry is going to have some impact in altering the output. Hence why so many manufacturers attempt to extol the "transparency" of their kit. What has been entirely missed by the OP is that all sound (including digital) has to be converted back into analogue. Speakers don't throw our staircase waveforms (although they could) but even if they did, the human ear would get little delights from a series of silences interspersed with mono-tonal sounds!

Last point on amps, for now, remains incorrect for the reasons I cited earlier. Not at all clear how speakers fit into your same point though.

The Kemper I referred to recreates the entire sound chain of pre-amp, power amp, speaker and microphone for guitar amps. It is designed to be used with full range flat response speakers. The result is astoundingly close to the original. So theoretically, you could apply this to any hifi combinations you like and get the same sort of results.

[Torquemada 1420]

The Kemper I referred to recreates the entire sound chain of pre-amp, power amp, speaker and microphone for guitar amps. It is designed to be used with full range flat response speakers. The result is astoundingly close to the original. So theoretically, you could apply this to any hifi combinations you like and get the same sort of results.

Thx. I have no knowledge of amping in regards instruments despite Marshalls being in spitting distance! Would not have thought a guitar would require the equivalent of a pre-amp though?

[Line6 HXFX]

A guitar amp has a pre amp and a power amp section.
You can actually bypass the preamp and stick effects (modulation effects like delay, reverb etc) after the preamp and stick your distortions before the preamp, into the front of the amp, so the distortion effects and preamp doesn't muddy the delay or modulation effects.


You could easily model a hifi, digitally.
So imagine a box with hundreds and hundreds of HIFIs models, all modelled perfectly, where you can match speakers, turn a dial and just chose.

That is where we are in the guitar world.

I can even predict the arguements luddites will have to put out there in opposition, audiophiles are already kicking off the tubes vs digital debate in earnest.

1) well it doesn't sound like a real hifi.
2)after a bit if time, ok it sounds exactly like a real hifi.
3) but it doesn't feel like there is an amp in the room.


...and on and on and on.

[Lobby]

The Kemper I referred to recreates the entire sound chain of pre-amp, power amp, speaker and microphone for guitar amps. It is designed to be used with full range flat response speakers. The result is astoundingly close to the original. So theoretically, you could apply this to any hifi combinations you like and get the same sort of results.

Thx. I have no knowledge of amping in regards instruments despite Marshalls being in spitting distance! Would not have thought a guitar would require the equivalent of a pre-amp though?

Kemper and other similar guitar amps essentially use digital sound processing to emulate the sound produced by eg valve amps. DSP is already used in some HiFi and home cinema amps. Yamaha for example have used dsp for years to emulate the sound heard in particular concert halls from around the world. I think it’s use may be limited in HiFi because the aim isn’t to colour the sound, but rather recreate the original recording as accurately as possible. Dsp may have some use in overcoming and compensating for the limitations of individual listening rooms.

[Line6 HXFX]

The Kemper I referred to recreates the entire sound chain of pre-amp, power amp, speaker and microphone for guitar amps. It is designed to be used with full range flat response speakers. The result is astoundingly close to the original. So theoretically, you could apply this to any hifi combinations you like and get the same sort of results.

Thx. I have no knowledge of amping in regards instruments despite Marshalls being in spitting distance! Would not have thought a guitar would require the equivalent of a pre-amp though?

Kemper and other similar guitar amps essentially use digital sound processing to emulate the sound produced by eg valve amps. DSP is already used in some HiFi and home cinema amps. Yamaha for example have used dsp for years to emulate the sound heard in particular concert halls from around the world. I think it’s use may be limited in HiFi because the aim isn’t to colour the sound, but rather recreate the original recording as accurately as possible. Dsp may have some use in overcoming and compensating for the limitations of individual listening rooms.

Every review I have seen of a DAC, Amp, Speaker...sorry loudspeaker,, Streamer, Sound Card, Headphone, Cable, Input, etc on the Audiophile channels I avidly watch, is all about differences and characteristics in tone, and colour which each bit of equipment gives.

They constantly say stuff like" if you want a deeper richer tone, and your music to feel easeful, and don't want it brittle or bitey, then I highly recommend you buy this speaker over the last iteration".

No doubt for some audiophiles it is all about the original recording, getting the first pressing, buying the studio speakers they used to mix dark side of the moon, buying a load of neve studio gear and bolting it to a hifi..So for them yup, maybe brilliant adcvances in technology will pass them by this time around....and the next time etc.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Thx. I have no knowledge of amping in regards instruments despite Marshalls being in spitting distance! Would not have thought a guitar would require the equivalent of a pre-amp though?

Kemper and other similar guitar amps essentially use digital sound processing to emulate the sound produced by eg valve amps. DSP is already used in some HiFi and home cinema amps. Yamaha for example have used dsp for years to emulate the sound heard in particular concert halls from around the world. I think it’s use may be limited in HiFi because the aim isn’t to colour the sound, but rather recreate the original recording as accurately as possible. Dsp may have some use in overcoming and compensating for the limitations of individual listening rooms.

Every review I have seen of a DAC, Amp, Speaker...sorry loudspeaker,, Streamer, Sound Card, Headphone, Cable, Input, etc on the Audiophile channels I avidly watch, is all about differences and characteristics in tone, and colour which each bit of equipment gives.

They constantly say stuff like" if you want a deeper richer tone, and your music to feel easeful, and don't want it brittle or bitey, then I highly recommend you buy this speaker over the last iteration".

No doubt for some audiophiles it is all about the original recording, getting the first pressing, buying the studio speakers they used to mix dark side of the moon, buying a load of neve studio gear and bolting it to a hifi..So for them yup, maybe brilliant adcvances in technology will pass them by this time around....and the next time etc.

Problem is that's mostly made up bullshit to fill column inches between the adverts from the manufacturers.

Digital music now means that everything from the source to the amp input is effectively a perfect reproduction of what came out of the studio - which in itself may be a steaming pile of crap. Amps are also not complicated pieces of equipment. Speakers/Headphones and a nice room are where the money should be spent.

Actually no. Money should be spent on music.

[Line6 HXFX]

The thing with recreating the original recording as accurately as possible, is only one person will know how it is supposed to sound.
He is probably dead, and he probably had to compromise with the musicians (and his equipment he had available) anyway.
So a group of people all compromised with eachother.
So the original was a massive compromise.
He also would have done it a lot differently a few years later (as that may have been his third or fourthalbum he mixed)..

So it is a bit of a fools errand to chase the "authentic sound" of the record.

That is not what a audiophile is, a audiophile is someone who cherishes gear and hardware, and is always looking for newer better sounding stuff.

This " stuff" can, in the near future all be digitally modelled to within an inch of its life.

And who is to say the HIFI equipment used to create the original authentic tone, of the original pressing, that makes all audiophiles the world over happy, cannot be digitally modeled and downloaded for free?

[Lobby]

The thing with recreating the original recording as accurately as possible, is only one person will know how it is supposed to sound.
He is probably dead, and he probably had to compromise with the musicians (and his equipment he had available) anyway.

I mostly listen to classical music, and have lots of live recordings of performances I attended. As I was there when it was recorded, I have pretty good idea of what the original sounded like, and whether (a) the engineers have done a good job in capturing both the performance and the hall’s acoustic, and (b) how close my equipment comes to reproducing it.

[Line6 HXFX]

So you recreate the authentic tone used on the album, with all this expensive obscure gear, you bought, are absolutely delighted with the results because you played it to the artists and the guy who mastered and produced it (if he is still alive) , and they said "yup, that'll do pig",
You sit there, delighted, and imagining you are pushing the sliders around..listening to how it must have been in the recording booth. Pretending you are mixing it. Fantasing that you helped to create the mix..

I come along and digitally capture it, and give it away for free and people have your authentic tone for nothing, digitally modelled, so they can play the record on their digital devices, having all got rid of their hifis, as they are all redundant.
This is what is happening in the guitar world.

The world thanks you for your service etc but the "authentic" tone you talk about will soon be a free download.

[A6D6E6]

The thing with recreating the original recording as accurately as possible, is only one person will know how it is supposed to sound.
He is probably dead, and he probably had to compromise with the musicians (and his equipment he had available) anyway.

I mostly listen to classical music, and have lots of live recordings of performances I attended. As I was there when it was recorded, I have pretty good idea of what the original sounded like, and whether (a) the engineers have done a good job in capturing both the performance and the hall’s acoustic, and (b) how close my equipment comes to reproducing it.

I think you are probably kidding yourself that your hearing / memory / ability is able to compare a live performance with a recording you listen to days, weeks, months or years later.

[Torquemada 1420]

Every review I have seen of a DAC, Amp, Speaker...sorry loudspeaker,, Streamer, Sound Card, Headphone, Cable, Input, etc on the Audiophile channels I avidly watch, is all about differences and characteristics in tone, and colour which each bit of equipment gives.

They constantly say stuff like" if you want a deeper richer tone, and your music to feel easeful, and don't want it brittle or bitey, then I highly recommend you buy this speaker over the last iteration".

In part, you are conflating 2 things.
1) That is because nearly every bit of equipment will alter the signal in some way. And let's not get back into whether you can hear it or not: it gets altered. Some will be audible.
2) Pundits getting paid to review stuff and w*nking on about aspects in the manner of wine critics is an adjunct. Love or loathe them, it alters part 1 not one iota.

BTW, whilst I sympathise with parts of your argument (albeit not at the costs you claim), the one bit of kit that sits outside this is the speaker. And ironically, that's where you started.

[Line6 HXFX]

The thing with recreating the original recording as accurately as possible, is only one person will know how it is supposed to sound.
He is probably dead, and he probably had to compromise with the musicians (and his equipment he had available) anyway.

I mostly listen to classical music, and have lots of live recordings of performances I attended. As I was there when it was recorded, I have pretty good idea of what the original sounded like, and whether (a) the engineers have done a good job in capturing both the performance and the hall’s acoustic, and (b) how close my equipment comes to reproducing it.

I think you are probably kidding yourself that your hearing / memory / ability is able to compare a live performance with a recording you listen to days, weeks, months or years later.

I saw an interview once of a turntable designer, and what he said stuck with me. His turntables were about 35 thousand quid and up, and the people who have that sort of cash and buy his turntables, ie not the likes of us..he would just tell them to go spend the cash on live concerts and a meal every night first, as they will never recapture the feeling of being in a concert..because you cannot fit 600 people in your living room.

[Sandstorm]

The thing with recreating the original recording as accurately as possible, is only one person will know how it is supposed to sound.
He is probably dead, and he probably had to compromise with the musicians (and his equipment he had available) anyway.

I mostly listen to classical music, and have lots of live recordings of performances I attended. As I was there when it was recorded, I have pretty good idea of what the original sounded like, and whether (a) the engineers have done a good job in capturing both the performance and the hall’s acoustic, and (b) how close my equipment comes to reproducing it.

I think you are probably kidding yourself that your hearing / memory / ability is able to compare a live performance with a recording you listen to days, weeks, months or years later.

Listening to live concerts on a CD sux. Rather get a proper studio copy or go see the band live.

[Line6 HXFX]

By the way, I can confirm, from where I am sitting, two Amazon echo studios, pumping out Dolby Atmos is the dogs bollocks.

[Sandstorm]

By the way, I can confirm, from where I am sitting, two Amazon echo studios, pumping out Dolby Atmos is the dogs bollocks.

With just two speakers? Atmos is designed for 7.

[Line6 HXFX]

By the way, I can confirm, from where I am sitting, two Amazon echo studios, pumping out Dolby Atmos is the dogs bollocks.

With just two speakers? Atmos is designed for 7.

So each speaker has a top firing speaker bouncing sound off the ceiling, a great subwoofer (all the bass) one front firing speaker, and two speakers shooting sound left and right.
So 8.2?
There are some downsides to this solution, you need a firestick 4k, I can add the Amazon Sub, to it, but that's it for the moment.

Here you go nice vid..oh and you can currently get this system for 300 quid (plus 40 quid for a firestick 4k). They are on offer, but will be going straight back up to 190 quid in a bit.

Again this setup isn't for everyone, but if you are in the Amazon ecosystem, and have one echo studio, you will be seriously chuffed with two.

[media] [/media]

[clydecloggie]

Aren't a lot of these new vinyl prints just copies of digital recordings?
The actual masters were destroyed long ago.

Also, the whole Vinyl is warmer thing, yeah complete Snakeoil.

There are lots and lots of vids online completely disproving this.

3000 quid man, think we have a winner.

Laugh all you like. First album I ever bought as a vinyl LP was Marillion's Misplaced Childhood. Then somehow I bought it on CD as well, the original release. Sound difference was stark. And perfectly described by 'warm' and 'cold' respectively. Maybe it was the conversion to digital that was rubbish in the 80's, maybe it was a problem for that specific album, but it was there.

[Dismal Pillock]

So this thread = one tetchy guy in a massive outraged snit about people who enjoy music that doesn't come from some sterile tinpot Amazon speakers?

[A6D6E6]

So this thread = one tetchy guy in a massive outraged snit about people who enjoy music that doesn't come from some sterile tinpot Amazon speakers?

Plus an interesting deviation into digital modelling and its potential.

[Line6 HXFX]

Hey, nothing shitty or tinny about my Amazon Echo Studio speakers. They are truly glorious. Too much bass if anything.

I think this thread is brilliant, we have covered a lot of ground.
We debated whether the term audiophile is invented by hifi salesmen, which btw, yup still up for debate.
We investigated what actually is an audiophile trying to achieve anyway, whether it is a better sound, whether they fetishise gear , whether they are trying to recreate a live theatre experience, or whether they want to put themselves right in the mixing studio.
To top it off we looked at the future of audiophile equipment, where I educated everyone and made everyone realise that their stupod expensive gear will be easily digitally modelled in the near future and is probably a seriously bad investment.

All in two pages.
May actually be the greatest two pages on the internet.
You're welcome.

[Sandstorm]

my Amazon Echo Studio speakers.

They are truly glorious.

Too much bass if anything.

Mate: if there's too much bass, it's not glorious. Period.

Your speakers have issues with their low-end. That's a problem and any "audiophile" would have a big issue with them.
Of course they might be placed too close to a wall, causing the bass to boom? Then you'll need to move them...which any audiophile would have tried already.

[Line6 HXFX]

my Amazon Echo Studio speakers.

They are truly glorious.

Too much bass if anything.

Mate: if there's too much bass, it's not glorious. Period.

Your speakers have issues with their low-end. That's a problem and any "audiophile" would have a big issue with them.
Of course they might be placed too close to a wall, causing the bass to boom? Then you'll need to move them...which any audiophile would have tried already.

You can turn the bass down in the app. No issue at all.

[sockwithaticket]

Are you getting paid to shill this hard for really mediocre gear?

[Sandstorm]

You can turn the bass down in the app. No issue at all.

Ah, tone controls. So budget!

[Line6 HXFX]

Are you getting paid to shill this hard for really mediocre gear?

Hah, if only.. so you are one of these tone snobs, and hey thats great.

But guess what, all your nightmares have just come true..you can experience a great sound stage on a budget.

[sockwithaticket]

Are you getting paid to shill this hard for really mediocre gear?

Hah, if only.. so you are one of these tone snobs, and hey thats great.

But guess what, all your nightmares have just come true..you can experience a great sound stage on a budget.

You absolutely can, by spending your £300 on something that's not the Amazon Echo. Any of the big audio brands will have something better in that price range. This is like people spending at least 50% more on Beats headphones rather than an equivalent or superior pair of Sennheisers except devoid of the fashion statement benefit.

Given your persona on here, how do you feel shilling (for free) something that will further enrich that human stain Bezos?

[Line6 HXFX]

Are you getting paid to shill this hard for really mediocre gear?

Hah, if only.. so you are one of these tone snobs, and hey thats great.

But guess what, all your nightmares have just come true..you can experience a great sound stage on a budget.

You absolutely can, by spending your £300 on something that's not the Amazon Echo. Any of the big audio brands will have something better in that price range. This is like people spending at least 50% more on Beats headphones rather than an equivalent or superior pair of Sennheisers except devoid of the fashion statement benefit.

Given your persona on here, how do you feel shilling (for free) something that will further enrich that human stain Bezos?

AHah, as much fun as it is for you, trying to distill and portray what I am doing as shilling, I think I explained all the ground this debate covered earlier. Only you seem to be outside the whole fuxking thing, in a cloud of deliberate miscomprehension.

[JPNZ]

Love music as much as most in here appear to do, recently upgraded my whole HT setup as I purchased a new 65" OLED TV. New Onkyo 9.2 amp on clearance connected to 2 x Older Wharfedale 9.5's plus centre and 9.1 surrounds and SW. Added a pair of cheaper Onkyo atmos top firing speakers for Dolby atmos soundtracks. So operating as 5.1.2 Atmos with room to go to 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 later and run a pair of zone outdoor speakers too.

On the headphone side just a trusty pair of Sony WH1000XM3's Bluetooth noise cancelling headphones, I love them. Also have a much cheaper pair of waterproof Anker soundbud slims for running and cycling.

[clydecloggie]

Are you getting paid to shill this hard for really mediocre gear?

Hah, if only.. so you are one of these tone snobs, and hey thats great.

But guess what, all your nightmares have just come true..you can experience a great sound stage on a budget.

I can agree with you up to a point - digital modelling has been a revolution. But as others have said - the music that reaches your ears isn't digital. It's good old-fashioned sound waves generated by vibrating cones.

And there is no way in hell an Amazon Echo will produce the same sound waves as high end speakers.

If you're happy with the sound they make, fine.

I, for instance, really don't like the sound of Sonos speakers - I think they sound tinny, can't deal with rock-out volume as they distort even at 'loud living room' levels, and don't give a nice 'breathing' sound with good instrument separation. The Echo also has a pea soup approach to music - nice of the drummer to play that subtle fill on the toms, but no-one's interested so off you go into the soup, laddie. Join the bass player who refused to stick to churning it out on the E string.

If you want to properly hear music made at lowish-mid sound frequencies (like tom drums and the higher strings of a bass guitar), you need speakers with separate cones of good diameter to do that. The really low bass frequencies (bass guitar E string, floor tom, kick) tend to come out decent on cheap shitty speakers. It's the stuff just above that which makes music come alive and gets buried by cheap shit.

So there. There's my hill.

"Who goes there? - DEATH - Approach, friend"

[Gong]

You can turn the bass down in the app. No issue at all.

If you are using an app based EQ for your setup then you've lost any 'audiophile' argument before you've started.

Can you articulate for us why you think they are audiophile? Do you get a good soundstage, depth & space; accurate pitch & timing?

[Sandstorm]

You can turn the bass down in the app. No issue at all.

If you are using an app based EQ for your setup then you've lost any 'audiophile' argument before you've started.

Can you articulate for us why you think they are audiophile? Do you get a good soundstage, depth & space; accurate pitch & timing?

Yup, and all for just £199.00. Amazing!!

[clive]

Used to loath streaming until now, I've tried Qobuz and Amazon, but I find Tidal the best good catalog and very good sound, but Its a 3 month try out for free and 19 99, per month after that, to expensive for me.

As for some of my equipment I have, the Amp is a Linn Classic with a Crown XL5 1002 power amp out to Acoustic Energy floor standers, a pair of Klipsch sixes for ripped cds from my apple mini.
MY headphones are Sennheiser HD 630vb pluged into my Astell Kern portable player.
as for vinyl I have my project carbon turntable

Very happy with the sound and you could go berserk searching for the ultimate tone, thing is you can assume something that costs loads must sound great, and its not always the case, so important to demo everything.

[clive]

Used to loath streaming until now, I've tried Qobuz and Amazon, but I find Tidal the best good catalog and very good sound, but Its a 3 month try out for free and 19 99, per month after that, to expensive for me.

As for some of my equipment I have, the Amp is a Linn Classic with a Crown XLS 1002 power amp out to Acoustic Energy floor standers, a pair of Klipsch sixes for ripped cds from my apple mini.
MY headphones are Sennheiser HD 630vb pluged into my Astell Kern portable player.
as for vinyl I have my project carbon turntable

Very happy with the sound and you could go berserk searching for the ultimate tone, thing is you can assume something that costs loads must sound great, and its not always the case, so important to demo everything.

[Line6 HXFX]

Used to loath streaming until now, I've tried Qobuz and Amazon, but I find Tidal the best good catalog and very good sound, but Its a 3 month try out for free and 19 99, per month after that, to expensive for me.

As for some of my equipment I have, the Amp is a Linn Classic with a Crown XLS 1002 power amp out to Acoustic Energy floor standers, a pair of Klipsch sixes for ripped cds from my apple mini.
MY headphones are Sennheiser HD 630vb pluged into my Astell Kern portable player.
as for vinyl I have my project carbon turntable

Very happy with the sound and you could go berserk searching for the ultimate tone, thing is you can assume something that costs loads must sound great, and its not always the case, so important to demo everything.

Tidal is pretty awesome, as is Amazon HD audio etc, I tried the free Tidal demo, 5 quid for 5 months thing and it was petty amazing. No way am I paying 19 quid when you can get Amazon HD for a lot cheaper.

[clive]

Used to loath streaming until now, I've tried Qobuz and Amazon, but I find Tidal the best good catalog and very good sound, but Its a 3 month try out for free and 19 99, per month after that, to expensive for me.

As for some of my equipment I have, the Amp is a Linn Classic with a Crown XLS 1002 power amp out to Acoustic Energy floor standers, a pair of Klipsch sixes for ripped cds from my apple mini.
MY headphones are Sennheiser HD 630vb pluged into my Astell Kern portable player.
as for vinyl I have my project carbon turntable

Very happy with the sound and you could go berserk searching for the ultimate tone, thing is you can assume something that costs loads must sound great, and its not always the case, so important to demo everything.

Tidal is pretty awesome, as is Amazon HD audio etc, I tried the free Tidal demo, 5 quid for 5 months thing and it was petty amazing. No way am I paying 19 quid when you can get Amazon HD for a lot cheaper.

Yes I agree 20quid even for master recordings is to steep, Qobuz did at least have a discount for downloaded material, but I had so many issues with Qobuz its one to avoid, is it still £15 a month for HD on Amazon.

[Line6 HXFX]

12.99 if already a prime member.
Think you can have six devices going at once though, so hd may be cheaper than Amazon music between six friends etc.

Not sure how complicated it is, or whether they have to be on the same wifi network though.

[clive]

12.99 if already a prime member.
Think you can have six devices going at once though, so hd may be cheaper than Amazon music between six friends etc.

Not sure how complicated it is, or whether they have to be on the same wifi network though.

Thanks will give it some thought.