6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland

[Slick]

Given Underhill and Itoje were two of England's best performers against Scotland there's more than a hint of shoehorning in a "England's most hyped players just aren't good enough" based on personal bias rather than anything else

It wasn't any of the players getting accused who were shitting the bed against Scotland, either

That only works if you think they are anywhere near the players they were a couple of seasons ago. They are not.

How far back are you going, exactly?

The point stands: why have a pop at two of England's best performers against Scotland if it's not just a display of strongly held priors? It says precisely nothing about England's current woes.

I think you are trying to goad me into saying that England were shite against Scotland and that even two of their better players were still shite. But I’m not going to do that

[Uncle fester]

Everyone is writing off England and they'll be happy with that.

[sockwithaticket]

Aye, it means most people won't give a shit when the inevitable loss occurs.

[Slick]

Everyone is writing off England and they'll be happy with that.

I’m actually not. I reckon they have a big game in them. At home, written off, an Ireland team that inevitably will be expecting a win. The 6N always throws up one of these

[fishfoodie]

Everyone is writing off England and they'll be happy with that.

I’m actually not. I reckon they have a big game in them. At home, written off, an Ireland team that inevitably will be expecting a win. The 6N always throws up one of these

Jaysus was France V Italy not enough for you .....

[Slick]

Everyone is writing off England and they'll be happy with that.

I’m actually not. I reckon they have a big game in them. At home, written off, an Ireland team that inevitably will be expecting a win. The 6N always throws up one of these

Jaysus was France V Italy not enough for you .....

It’s unlikely, but at the same time wouldn’t surprise me massively. I’m saying that, this Ireland team don’t fuck up really

[Uncle fester]

Everyone is writing off England and they'll be happy with that.

I’m actually not. I reckon they have a big game in them. At home, written off, an Ireland team that inevitably will be expecting a win. The 6N always throws up one of these

They nearly took down south Africa. They are definitely better than they looked against Scotland.

[Paddington Bear]

Everyone is writing off England and they'll be happy with that.

I’m actually not. I reckon they have a big game in them. At home, written off, an Ireland team that inevitably will be expecting a win. The 6N always throws up one of these

They nearly took down south Africa. They are definitely better than they looked against Scotland.

It’s obviously possible, blueprint being the SA game (our scrum even with 14 men has been on top of the Irish recently, so that eliminates one glaring weakness). How likely is it? Ireland haven’t cocked up in years, their losses have taken near perfect oppo performances. I just don’t think a team that made 25 handling errors last time out can reach that level.

The other two games are far closer to toss ups than this one.

[Uncle fester]

Scrum is a big one.


Also cards. England have been in the receiving end of those in recent games. Worm turns and it's a very different picture.

[Oxbow]

I dreamt last night that England scored the first try after about 15 seconds. It came from a kick of course, the ball was hoofed up in the air, came down on the line and some lunk caught it and flopped over. I think it might have been Dan Hipkiss. If he's playing on Saturday I suggest lumping all your spare cash on England.

[JM2K6]

That only works if you think they are anywhere near the players they were a couple of seasons ago. They are not.

How far back are you going, exactly?

The point stands: why have a pop at two of England's best performers against Scotland if it's not just a display of strongly held priors? It says precisely nothing about England's current woes.

I think you are trying to goad me into saying that England were shite against Scotland and that even two of their better players were still shite. But I’m not going to do that

Why would I be trying to goad you into saying something pretty obvious to everyone? (Well, the England part. Neither Underhill nor Itoje were remotely shite)

I'm saying that it's weird to point the finger at two of the guys who were not even remotely to blame for the performance or the result, and that I think you're letting your dislike of "hyped" England players cloud your judgement. It's a rubbish analysis of the problems intent in the national side right now to just list off some names you think aren't as good any more and then ignore actual performances, sorry!

[JM2K6]

I dreamt last night that England scored the first try after about 15 seconds. It came from a kick of course, the ball was hoofed up in the air, came down on the line and some lunk caught it and flopped over. I think it might have been Dan Hipkiss. If he's playing on Saturday I suggest lumping all your spare cash on England.

Surely Dan would've looked for the nearest defender so he could set up a maul and be in his happy place

[sockwithaticket]

It's sport and anything can happen, but this will be a comfortable win for Ireland. Any other suggestion is mere mockers bait.

They've won the last four in a row against England with the lowest margin of victory being 13 points. The world cup was months and months ago and no indicator of England's current form. Looking across the last few years, managing to keep it close with South Africa is more of a form anomaly than being handily beaten by anyone decent.

[inactionman]

I dreamt last night that England scored the first try after about 15 seconds. It came from a kick of course, the ball was hoofed up in the air, came down on the line and some lunk caught it and flopped over. I think it might have been Dan Hipkiss. If he's playing on Saturday I suggest lumping all your spare cash on England.

Surely Dan would've looked for the nearest defender so he could set up a maul and be in his happy place

I got lost at 'Dan Hipkiss' and 'catch'

(in fairness he was tidy for Bath, very powerful runner)

[JM2K6]

Everyone is writing off England and they'll be happy with that.

I’m actually not. I reckon they have a big game in them. At home, written off, an Ireland team that inevitably will be expecting a win. The 6N always throws up one of these

They nearly took down south Africa. They are definitely better than they looked against Scotland.

It is not impossible that England beat Ireland, but let's be honest here: SA were absolute dogshit for large parts of that match. They played like twats, they were way below their usual skill level, and they were much much dumber than usual. England managed to enact their preferred game plan almost to a T, their opposition played right into their hands while refusing to attack their weaknesses, and as a result England "dominated" much of that game.

And lost, which was a surprise to no one because everyone knew that England were incapable of turning that "dominance" into a real lead on the scoreboard and that south Africa would eventually work out that England were not going to get bored of the kicking game and that they had real weaknesses in defence.

It wasn't even a moral victory. We played depressing anti-rugby and lost. And because SA ended up winning the tournament everyone thinks it was an incredible display. It was a garbage match and the team that supposedly proved a point that day lost despite everything going their way.

[ASMO]

I’m actually not. I reckon they have a big game in them. At home, written off, an Ireland team that inevitably will be expecting a win. The 6N always throws up one of these

They nearly took down south Africa. They are definitely better than they looked against Scotland.

It is not impossible that England beat Ireland, but let's be honest here: SA were absolute dogshit for large parts of that match. They played like twats, they were way below their usual skill level, and they were much much dumber than usual. England managed to enact their preferred game plan almost to a T, their opposition played right into their hands while refusing to attack their weaknesses, and as a result England "dominated" much of that game.

And lost, which was a surprise to no one because everyone knew that England were incapable of turning that "dominance" into a real lead on the scoreboard and that south Africa would eventually work out that England were not going to get bored of the kicking game and that they had real weaknesses in defence.

It wasn't even a moral victory. We played depressing anti-rugby and lost. And because SA ended up winning the tournament everyone thinks it was an incredible display. It was a garbage match and the team that supposedly proved a point that day lost despite everything going their way.

Have to agree, but the issue now is that Boredthick and his coaching team are dining out on that result ad infinitum as justification for their approach and selection policies.

[JM2K6]

I dreamt last night that England scored the first try after about 15 seconds. It came from a kick of course, the ball was hoofed up in the air, came down on the line and some lunk caught it and flopped over. I think it might have been Dan Hipkiss. If he's playing on Saturday I suggest lumping all your spare cash on England.

Surely Dan would've looked for the nearest defender so he could set up a maul and be in his happy place

I got lost at 'Dan Hipkiss' and 'catch'

(in fairness he was tidy for Bath, very powerful runner)

I thought he was a career Tiger? Hmmm

[JM2K6]

They nearly took down south Africa. They are definitely better than they looked against Scotland.

It is not impossible that England beat Ireland, but let's be honest here: SA were absolute dogshit for large parts of that match. They played like twats, they were way below their usual skill level, and they were much much dumber than usual. England managed to enact their preferred game plan almost to a T, their opposition played right into their hands while refusing to attack their weaknesses, and as a result England "dominated" much of that game.

And lost, which was a surprise to no one because everyone knew that England were incapable of turning that "dominance" into a real lead on the scoreboard and that south Africa would eventually work out that England were not going to get bored of the kicking game and that they had real weaknesses in defence.

It wasn't even a moral victory. We played depressing anti-rugby and lost. And because SA ended up winning the tournament everyone thinks it was an incredible display. It was a garbage match and the team that supposedly proved a point that day lost despite everything going their way.

Have to agree, but the issue now is that Boredthick and his coaching team are dining out on that result ad infinitum as justification for their approach and selection policies.

Yup and there are plenty of supporters using it in defence of Borthwick, too. We came 3rd at the world cup, woo! Except we won a laughable group where the only genuine challengers were appalling, we beat a rubbish Samoa side by a point in a dreadful display, and we should have lost the quarter final to an injury hit Fiji. But hey we beat Argentina twice so we're amazing

[inactionman]

Surely Dan would've looked for the nearest defender so he could set up a maul and be in his happy place

I got lost at 'Dan Hipkiss' and 'catch'

(in fairness he was tidy for Bath, very powerful runner)

I thought he was a career Tiger? Hmmm

Nope, ended up at Bath and I believe still lives down that way - was there a couple of seasons but not many games due to injury, he banjaxed his shoulder which is what forced early retirement. Think he now works for the Matt Hampson foundation.

[SaintK]

Team announcement later this morning but papers reporting that IF-W in to replace Daly

[JM2K6]

I got lost at 'Dan Hipkiss' and 'catch'

(in fairness he was tidy for Bath, very powerful runner)

I thought he was a career Tiger? Hmmm

Nope, ended up at Bath and I believe still lives down that way - was there a couple of seasons but not many games due to injury, he banjaxed his shoulder which is what forced early retirement. Think he now works for the Matt Hampson foundation.

Huh, funny the things you forget!

Very whole-hearted player. Shame he couldn't have a full career.

[Sandstorm]

Team announcement later this morning but papers reporting that IF-W in to replace Daly

So it'll be 27 matches before the team makes rush defence work?

[Slick]

How far back are you going, exactly?

The point stands: why have a pop at two of England's best performers against Scotland if it's not just a display of strongly held priors? It says precisely nothing about England's current woes.

I think you are trying to goad me into saying that England were shite against Scotland and that even two of their better players were still shite. But I’m not going to do that

Why would I be trying to goad you into saying something pretty obvious to everyone? (Well, the England part. Neither Underhill nor Itoje were remotely shite)

I'm saying that it's weird to point the finger at two of the guys who were not even remotely to blame for the performance or the result, and that I think you're letting your dislike of "hyped" England players cloud your judgement. It's a rubbish analysis of the problems intent in the national side right now to just list off some names you think aren't as good any more and then ignore actual performances, sorry!

They are two "of" the guys I focussed in on, funnily enough all of them players that keep getting picked despite not doing much, it's you that has highlighted those two. And I don't dislike either of them. If you don't think there is an issue with England picking the same players over and over that don't perform, then I think that's a bit weird.

[Uncle fester]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2024/030 ... e-villain/

Two rounds remaining in this underwhelming Six Nations, and the consensus is that Ireland are bouncing happily towards their second successive Grand Slam, becoming the first nation to achieve the feat since the turn of the century.

They progress to this historic goal with the near unanimous badwill of their neighbours, especially those of the Celtic variety.

As it stands, Irish rugby fans are already resigned to the reality that if they do complete the back-to-back Slam, all they will hear in response is '*cough, quarter-final.'

"Well, Hamish, what are your thoughts on Ireland's second successive Grand Slam?

"Thanks Gregor, well first off I'd like to say quarter-final, quarter-final, quarter-final. You've got to hand it to quarter-final, quarter-final. On the other hand, going forward, quarter-final, quarter-final, quarter-final.

"So, in summing up, I would say quarter-final."

In Rugby Pass, French-based rugby writer Gavin Mortimer dismissed this "largely irrelevant Six Nations" and said that "the Irish can win as many Grand Slams as they want, but they're all meaningless if they can’t make an impression at the World Cup."

Six Nations tournaments immediately following World Cups can often be downers and not even the spectacle of Ireland mowing through the opposition can rescue that.

There is more at the link above.

[inactionman]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2024/030 ... e-villain/

Two rounds remaining in this underwhelming Six Nations, and the consensus is that Ireland are bouncing happily towards their second successive Grand Slam, becoming the first nation to achieve the feat since the turn of the century.

They progress to this historic goal with the near unanimous badwill of their neighbours, especially those of the Celtic variety.

As it stands, Irish rugby fans are already resigned to the reality that if they do complete the back-to-back Slam, all they will hear in response is '*cough, quarter-final.'

"Well, Hamish, what are your thoughts on Ireland's second successive Grand Slam?

"Thanks Gregor, well first off I'd like to say quarter-final, quarter-final, quarter-final. You've got to hand it to quarter-final, quarter-final. On the other hand, going forward, quarter-final, quarter-final, quarter-final.

"So, in summing up, I would say quarter-final."

In Rugby Pass, French-based rugby writer Gavin Mortimer dismissed this "largely irrelevant Six Nations" and said that "the Irish can win as many Grand Slams as they want, but they're all meaningless if they can’t make an impression at the World Cup."

Six Nations tournaments immediately following World Cups can often be downers and not even the spectacle of Ireland mowing through the opposition can rescue that.

There is more at the link above.

That is already more than enough

[Uncle fester]

It's a bit of a strange article for our national broadcaster, more typical Indo fare.

[inactionman]

Here we are then.

Furbank; Feyi-Waboso, Slade, Lawrence, Freeman; Ford, Mitchell; Genge, George (capt), Cole, Itoje, Martin, Chessum, Underhill, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Marler, Stuart, Cunningham-South, Dombrandt, Care, M Smith, Daly.

Chessum at 6? Roots out of squad, Dombrandt back in.

eta: How TF did I miss this on the first post of the thread? Ignore

[Slick]

Here we are then.

Furbank; Feyi-Waboso, Slade, Lawrence, Freeman; Ford, Mitchell; Genge, George (capt), Cole, Itoje, Martin, Chessum, Underhill, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Marler, Stuart, Cunningham-South, Dombrandt, Care, M Smith, Daly.

Chessum at 6? Roots out of squad, Dombrandt back in.

eta: How TF did I miss this on the first post of the thread? Ignore

I wouldn't have picked Underhill or Itoje

[inactionman]

Here we are then.

Furbank; Feyi-Waboso, Slade, Lawrence, Freeman; Ford, Mitchell; Genge, George (capt), Cole, Itoje, Martin, Chessum, Underhill, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Marler, Stuart, Cunningham-South, Dombrandt, Care, M Smith, Daly.

Chessum at 6? Roots out of squad, Dombrandt back in.

eta: How TF did I miss this on the first post of the thread? Ignore

I wouldn't have picked Underhill or Itoje

I'd say Itoje is probably the first name on the teamsheet. Even ahead of George.

[Slick]

Here we are then.



Chessum at 6? Roots out of squad, Dombrandt back in.

eta: How TF did I miss this on the first post of the thread? Ignore

I wouldn't have picked Underhill or Itoje

I'd say Itoje is probably the first name on the teamsheet. Even ahead of George.

I'm disappoint.

[Hal Jordan]

Ton up for Care if (when) he comes on.

[JM2K6]

I think you are trying to goad me into saying that England were shite against Scotland and that even two of their better players were still shite. But I’m not going to do that

Why would I be trying to goad you into saying something pretty obvious to everyone? (Well, the England part. Neither Underhill nor Itoje were remotely shite)

I'm saying that it's weird to point the finger at two of the guys who were not even remotely to blame for the performance or the result, and that I think you're letting your dislike of "hyped" England players cloud your judgement. It's a rubbish analysis of the problems intent in the national side right now to just list off some names you think aren't as good any more and then ignore actual performances, sorry!

They are two "of" the guys I focussed in on, funnily enough all of them players that keep getting picked despite not doing much, it's you that has highlighted those two. And I don't dislike either of them. If you don't think there is an issue with England picking the same players over and over that don't perform, then I think that's a bit weird.

Yeah but I don't think you're a reliable judge of what "not doing much" actually means when it comes to England players. There's a reason why you won't find many England fans (who aren't averse to putting the boot into everyone) making out that Itoje being picked is an issue.

I focused on those two because of an earlier discussion, and because they're the stand out "huh?" names from your list given their most recent performances. But if you like: George keeps getting selected as he's an excellent set piece operator and his primary challenger is constantly injured, while the coming man is still prone to lineout meltdowns. Is he as good as he used to be? No. Is it a problem that he still gets selected? Also no, he'd be a fine international for any team. Then there's Genge - the best ball carrier of the available options, but not the best scrummager. I would argue you've never actually rated him so I'm not sure what heady heights you think he's fallen from, but he has always been a player who is primarily picked for his energy and willingness to carry at pace. With Marler only a steady Eddie at scrum time these days, with Mako out of the picture, and with the alternatives either too young (Fin Baxter) or too inconsistent in all areas (Rodd) or just near permanently broken (Obano), no one is surprised that he is picked when it feels like we need what he brings. Like Itoje, he's also not even 30 yet, so it's not like he's over the hill.

I don't remember who else you mentioned but eh...

[Slick]

I'm not going to carry on, but I do wonder where you drag my thoughts from, I bloody loved Genge as a player (and a bloke), but he has undoubtedly lost his edge that made him so good.

[JM2K6]

I'm not going to carry on, but I do wonder where you drag my thoughts from, I bloody loved Genge as a player (and a bloke), but he has undoubtedly lost his edge that made him so good.

I drag them from, well, your posts on this board. Here are your first mentions of him

2020:

Is Genge just one of these guys that change into a bit of a dick when they play but a good guy off the field, or just quite an unpleasant character?

2021:

Genge not quite his usual cocky self

The video I saw on Twitter of Genge refusing to clap the Welsh players during the tunnel was a bit sad.

He does increasingly come over as a bit of a knob.

Very decent come back from Genge to be fair.

Still comes across as a bit of a cock a lot of the time

Yes, I can’t criticise Sinkler, decent scrummager who is just going to get better and a really terrific player- and good bloke it seems.

Genge seems to be a right twat however

2022

Genge is just a but meh, bit of a gobshite who hasn't really earned the right to be so yet.

And here's the first bit of actual praise!

I don’t know if they showed it on the telly, but after the whistle 3 England players, I think George, Genge and the big 2nd row, broke off from the team huddle and walked round the edge of the pitch clapping the supporters. A really great touch

Couldn't find another one.

2023:

Genge is angry though.

Grrr

I know there are good reasons for it, but it infuriates me to see endless interviews with the likes of Sinkler and Genge talking about how they have overcome their anger and after a defeat they can be at peace etc. They are fucking props in an international rugby team.

You’ve also got Sinkler and Genge taking every opportunity to tell everyone how they have beaten their toxic aggression, or something, which has completely ruined their game.

Sinkler and Genge should just fuck off back to the bench

Have two players ever gone to shit as quick as Genge and Sinkler, pretty sure England would have won that if the others had stayed on.

Genuinely, if you ever had a period of where you "bloody loved Genge as a player (and a bloke)", you very much kept it to yourself. Perhaps it was on PR or something? Anyway, if someone was asked for your view on Ellis Genge based on your posts on here, they'd assume you absolutely fucking hate the guy. So apologies if I'm misrepresenting you by suggesting you've never really rated him, but all I can go on is the stuff you've said over, and over, and over, and over, on this board.

[Slick]

It was a slow burner to be fair

[SaintK]

It was a slow burner to be fair

[JM2K6]

It was a slow burner to be fair

Fair play

[Slick]

It was a slow burner to be fair

Fair play

Not as big a burn as you gave me, so fair play all round

[Sandstorm]

[Random1]

Ton up for Care if (when) he comes on.

Dormbrant, care and smith all off the bench together.