NPR

I use the phrase "add it to my CV" a fair bit but it does not always mean you will be using that CV.

It could just as easily mean that it's an experience he would love to have.

Enzedder wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:00 pm I use the phrase "add it to my CV" a fair bit but it does not always mean you will be using that CV.

It could just as easily mean that it's an experience he would love to have.

I would imagine if he meant that he would've said that, rather than suggesting it ticks a nice box for future employers.

He has fuck-all to do with NH rugby and shouldn't be considered. What's the point of the Lions if we go down this route? Might as well just let the Barbarians tour - at least they'd produce more entertaining rugby for the tour matches.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:02 pm

Enzedder wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:00 pm I use the phrase "add it to my CV" a fair bit but it does not always mean you will be using that CV.

It could just as easily mean that it's an experience he would love to have.

I would imagine if he meant that he would've said that, rather than suggesting it ticks a nice box for future employers.

He has fuck-all to do with NH rugby and shouldn't be considered. What's the point of the Lions if we go down this route? Might as well just let the Barbarians tour - at least they'd produce more entertaining rugby for the tour matches.

While I all for Razor to do it, I can understand the NH point of view that it's not really what the Lions have stood for historically, but that probably started to go when Henry etc started coaching them, and players that were ring ins were getting picked anyway. It's how the rugby landscape is changing for better or worse.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:53 pm Rumours that he was in line for Pivac's seat if he went early.

Here's hoping because the good ship 'if' sailed a long time ago

Dan54 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:09 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:02 pm

Enzedder wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:00 pm I use the phrase "add it to my CV" a fair bit but it does not always mean you will be using that CV.

It could just as easily mean that it's an experience he would love to have.

I would imagine if he meant that he would've said that, rather than suggesting it ticks a nice box for future employers.

He has fuck-all to do with NH rugby and shouldn't be considered. What's the point of the Lions if we go down this route? Might as well just let the Barbarians tour - at least they'd produce more entertaining rugby for the tour matches.

While I all for Razor to do it, I can understand the NH point of view that it's not really what the Lions have stood for historically, but that probably started to go when Henry etc started coaching them, and players that were ring ins were getting picked anyway. It's how the rugby landscape is changing for better or worse.

Henry was Wales coach. "Ring ins" were a) qualified and b) playing international rugby for one of Lions nations.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:25 pm Yes yes he's amazing, you're missing the point. I'm not underestimating anyone by claiming he's looking to impress the NZ management, though - he literally said he wanted it on his international CV.

To be fair to Robertson, he's been pushed into this sort of thing by nutty NZR policies. So I can see why he wants to do it, but I agree it's misplaced and threatens to make a mockery of the whole Lions ethos.

(Then again, it's only a tour to SA, so go for it Razor!)

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:25 pm Yes yes he's amazing, you're missing the point. I'm not underestimating anyone by claiming he's looking to impress the NZ management, though - he literally said he wanted it on his international CV.

Did he actually say he wanted it on his CV? A lot of reporting uses that phrase or talks about wanting the overseas experience but none that I have seen have that as a quote from Robertson. There are quotes about the learning opportunity and it being a huge thing in rugby but the “it would be good on my CV” appears to a motivation being attributed to him (which it likely is) rather than something he has actually said.

Jb1981 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:50 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:25 pm Yes yes he's amazing, you're missing the point. I'm not underestimating anyone by claiming he's looking to impress the NZ management, though - he literally said he wanted it on his international CV.

Did he actually say he wanted it on his CV? A lot of reporting uses that phrase or talks about wanting the overseas experience but none that I have seen have that as a quote from Robertson. There are quotes about the learning opportunity and it being a huge thing in rugby but the “it would be good on my CV” appears to a motivation being attributed to him (which it likely is) rather than something he has actually said.

I have no chance of finding the original quotes I read - gosh, he says a lot of things doesn't he - but here he is on the same topic

Obviously Gats has been hugely successful at the international level as a coach so he’s a person to learn off and also allows me to not have to go offshore to actually coach and get that international experience

which isn't a million miles away - still the same thing of the Lions being about him learning the ropes and getting international experience

Uh huh

I imagine that several international team set ups would be keen to sign Robertson on anyway. As for the AB coaching role, Robertson having kicked around as Gatland’s sidekick for six weeks isn’t going to sway the New Zealand Rugby board one way or the other.

He’s smart enough to know this. I think you just have to take his statement about a learning experience at face value.

Shanky’s mate wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:54 amUh huh

I've found various outlets attributing it to him but none directly quoting him. So either... he said it and they didn't quote him directly but all picked up on the same thing, or he didn't say it and the first people to paraphrase him that way have been copied by the others with some minor variations.

Either way, it was clearly the main takeaway from what he was saying. Appreciate it's not the same thing as a direct quote and that matters.

Uh huh

Razor is an interesting case. Not short of self belief. Apparently makes no secret of the fact that he feels his abilities and achievements are going unheralded: prob specifically in regards the NZ job.

I'm neutral on the Lions issues but it does seem contradictory that given the probable number of non British players who will take the pitch, to worry about the nationality of the coach.

It's really not contradictory. Robertson has nothing to do with NH rugby.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:04 am It's really not contradictory. Robertson has nothing to do with NH rugby.

Just another shift on the slider for me. The concept of "playing for one's country" has become such a joke, it was always going to end up eating into a concept whose sole raison d'etre was nationalist. The ship sailed after Gatland and Henry were given the roles.

I wonder if there is a case for the Lions setting stricter criteria for inclusion to screen out the Standers and Teos.

Gatland had been involved in NH rugby for a long, long time. Henry was the Wales coach at the time.

It really isn't the same thing, and I say that as someone who'd rather Gatland wasn't anywhere near the Lions given he quit NH rugby.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:31 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:04 am It's really not contradictory. Robertson has nothing to do with NH rugby.

Just another shift on the slider for me. The concept of "playing for one's country" has become such a joke, it was always going to end up eating into a concept whose sole raison d'etre was nationalist. The ship sailed after Gatland and Henry were given the roles.

I wonder if there is a case for the Lions setting stricter criteria for inclusion to screen out the Standers and Teos.

English parent no longer good enough as qualification for the Lions? Geez...

Dan54 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:09 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:02 pm

Enzedder wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:00 pm I use the phrase "add it to my CV" a fair bit but it does not always mean you will be using that CV.

It could just as easily mean that it's an experience he would love to have.

I would imagine if he meant that he would've said that, rather than suggesting it ticks a nice box for future employers.

He has fuck-all to do with NH rugby and shouldn't be considered. What's the point of the Lions if we go down this route? Might as well just let the Barbarians tour - at least they'd produce more entertaining rugby for the tour matches.

While I all for Razor to do it, I can understand the NH point of view that it's not really what the Lions have stood for historically, but that probably started to go when Henry etc started coaching them, and players that were ring ins were getting picked anyway. It's how the rugby landscape is changing for better or worse.

Such as?

To me ring in means a very late call up, I can't recall any 'foreign' players (always a bit of a nebulous descriptor anyway) who didn't at least have couple of seasons playing international rugby for one of the home nations under their belt before playing for the Lions.

As JMK has mentioned, there's no issue with non- home nations coaches becoming involved provided they've done their time here up North. Robertson hasn't done that. If he wants to come up here and give it a crack for a few seasons before the next tour I'm sure we'd be happy to have him. Waltzing in without that contact and connection with our rugby environment isn't right.

FujiKiwi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:00 am I imagine that several international team set ups would be keen to sign Robertson on anyway. As for the AB coaching role, Robertson having kicked around as Gatland’s sidekick for six weeks isn’t going to sway the New Zealand Rugby board one way or the other.

He’s smart enough to know this. I think you just have to take his statement about a learning experience at face value.

Perhaps it's just a precursor of things to come. Razor reckons Gatland is next in line for the AB coaching job, and is getting in good with him now.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:04 am It's really not contradictory. Robertson has nothing to do with NH rugby.

How is it any different to Henry bringing in Dave Ellis to be NZ's defensive advisor for the 2005 Lions tour?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... ew-zealand

True, and many cases an assistant coach has had zero to do with a national side before being appointed. And this is for actual national teams where there is nationalistic pride in.

Having said that I can certainly understand it to be the case for a head coach which is also an important ambassador role. But not so much for an assistant. Nor what Robertson is doing which apparently isn’t even assistant coach role.

Then again, ROG was pretty much treated like a foreign spy on his Saders stint.

Ymx wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:44 am Then again, ROG was pretty much treated like a foreign spy on his Saders stint.

Uh huh

wet-socks wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:58 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:04 am It's really not contradictory. Robertson has nothing to do with NH rugby.

How is it any different to Henry bringing in Dave Ellis to be NZ's defensive advisor for the 2005 Lions tour?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... ew-zealand

NZ can do what they like and there's no reason for me to have an opinion on who they hire. The Lions are meant to be different to regular international sides.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:05 am

wet-socks wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:58 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:04 am It's really not contradictory. Robertson has nothing to do with NH rugby.

How is it any different to Henry bringing in Dave Ellis to be NZ's defensive advisor for the 2005 Lions tour?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... ew-zealand

NZ can do what they like and there's no reason for me to have an opinion on who they hire. The Lions are meant to be different to regular international sides.

The best of four international sides versus one? Add in all your resident Aussies, Kiwis and South Africans and who really cares about one extra?

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:23 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:05 am

wet-socks wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:58 am

How is it any different to Henry bringing in Dave Ellis to be NZ's defensive advisor for the 2005 Lions tour?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... ew-zealand

NZ can do what they like and there's no reason for me to have an opinion on who they hire. The Lions are meant to be different to regular international sides.

The best of four international sides versus one? Add in all your resident Aussies, Kiwis and South Africans and who really cares about one extra?

The Aussies, Kiwis, and Saffers who are qualified for and actually represent one of the constituent countries of the Lions. Hiring people who have nothing to do with B&I rugby simply because they're quite good and it'll help their career development sounds great... for them. If you bin off the last vestiges of the Lions traditions then the whole tour becomes a waste of time. What's even the point after that? May as well just have better Barbarians tours.

Fuck it, England got to the final of the world cup and Wales pushed SA close in the semifinal. Why bother taking any Scots or Irish? Let's just keep it to those two countries. It's the "winning" approach, surely.

Why bother taking any Scots

Or the "Gatland Approach" as it is otherwise known.

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:23 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:05 am

wet-socks wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:58 am

How is it any different to Henry bringing in Dave Ellis to be NZ's defensive advisor for the 2005 Lions tour?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... ew-zealand

NZ can do what they like and there's no reason for me to have an opinion on who they hire. The Lions are meant to be different to regular international sides.

The best of four international sides versus one? Add in all your resident Aussies, Kiwis and South Africans and who really cares about one extra?

Oh don't start this one. You know as well as I do that it is the pinnacle for SH players to play against the Lions and the one thing that actually gets supporters to turn up. Not to mention that lovely cash. Don't start moaning about the concept.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 am

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:23 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:05 am

NZ can do what they like and there's no reason for me to have an opinion on who they hire. The Lions are meant to be different to regular international sides.

The best of four international sides versus one? Add in all your resident Aussies, Kiwis and South Africans and who really cares about one extra?

The Aussies, Kiwis, and Saffers who are qualified for and actually represent one of the constituent countries of the Lions. Hiring people who have nothing to do with B&I rugby simply because they're quite good and it'll help their career development sounds great... for them. If you bin off the last vestiges of the Lions traditions then the whole tour becomes a waste of time. What's even the point after that? May as well just have better Barbarians tours.

Fuck it, England got to the final of the world cup and Wales pushed SA close in the semifinal. Why bother taking any Scots or Irish? Let's just keep it to those two countries. It's the "winning" approach, surely.

A distant memory already

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:05 am As JMK has mentioned, there's no issue with non- home nations coaches becoming involved provided they've done their time here up North. Robertson hasn't done that. If he wants to come up here and give it a crack for a few seasons before the next tour I'm sure we'd be happy to have him. Waltzing in without that contact and connection with our rugby environment isn't right.

Yeah. But this is just bollox expediency of the most hypocritical, isn't it? JMK and I have had disagreements on this before. He has correctly pointed out that all the poaches were within the rules/laws. The irony being that one who normally claims the ground as the moral arbiter was dispensing his gavel in this issue.

Well, here's at ya. What rule is broken in Razor acting in any coaching capacity for The Lions? Ans = NONE.

It's a little late to be playing the moral card on national identities. Thankfully, after decades of damage, France is trying to reverse the trend of foreign imports and poaches. I suspect our friends in the SH will be having no sympathy with your angst.

Fucking hell, you're obsessed with me.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:05 am Fucking hell, you're obsessed with me.

I think you'll find it was you who responded to my post here (which had nothing to do with you).

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:09 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:05 am Fucking hell, you're obsessed with me.

I think you'll find it was you who responded to my post here (which had nothing to do with you).

It's the continued jabs about being a "moral arbiter", Torq. You're being weird again. You were slagging me off on here before I even joined the forum and you've been stepping up the personal attacks over the last few days. Give it a rest?

As for your point, no-one is talking about the 'laws'. It would be 'legal', for example, for a player in Super Rugby who is English qualified but has never played in the NH to be selected by the Lions, but it would trigger exactly the same complaints. It's not about laws, because the Lions is built on tradition, not laws. Yes, the poaches have reduced that tradition somewhat, but they still represent the best of the constituent sides and are striving for the peak of what they can achieve as players. Some Kiwi who's never been part of NH rugby getting picked for the betterment of his career as a coach with one eye on being a future NZ coach is a mile away from that, which is the point you keep missing.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:00 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:05 am As JMK has mentioned, there's no issue with non- home nations coaches becoming involved provided they've done their time here up North. Robertson hasn't done that. If he wants to come up here and give it a crack for a few seasons before the next tour I'm sure we'd be happy to have him. Waltzing in without that contact and connection with our rugby environment isn't right.

Yeah. But this is just bollox expediency of the most hypocritical, isn't it? JMK and I have had disagreements on this before. He has correctly pointed out that all the poaches were within the rules/laws. The irony being that one who normally claims the ground as the moral arbiter was dispensing his gavel in this issue.

Well, here's at ya. What rule is broken in Razor acting in any coaching capacity for The Lions? Ans = NONE.

It's a little late to be playing the moral card on national identities. Thankfully, after decades of damage, France is trying to reverse the trend of foreign imports and poaches. I suspect our friends in the SH will be having no sympathy with your angst.

A lot of your comment seems to be about players, mine is about coach roles*.

There's nothing moral about it, it's very much a practical consideration. In the interest of success for the Lions I want someone who has experienced top level coaching in the home nations, who understands the national rivalries and what will need to be overcome or amalgamated in camp. It's a long old tour with traditional opponents spending a lot of time together. That's why previous coaches have emphasised a need for great tourists as well as great players, this extends to the coaching as well. Unless he's coached up here for a spell I don't expect him to get any of that. Then there's differences of playing style. It is broadly recognised that there are differences between NH and SH approaches (certainly NH and Antipodean), I'd want to see some evidence that he's come to grips with that before being involved in the apex of Home Nations rugby. Certainly we've seen domestically that not all Kiwi coaches (or players for that matter) who come up here grasp what's required in our rugby environments or how to get the players to shift away from their traditions if trying to invoke a change. Again, that's something to work at and prove you can do in a slightly less prestigious appointment than that of Lions coach. Experience of and connection to NH rugby is important for Lions coaches.

No, there are no rules around who can coach the Lions. There is, however, a certain amount of convention and it would hardly be the first area where such conventions are de facto even if not de jure.



*Like most there are a number of 'poaches' representing nations whose presence in their respective teams I find disappointing to say the least. Thankfully very, very few of these make it to the Lions. In 2017 there were two - Stander and Payne. The tour before that there was just Sean Maitland. I'd rather none of them were there, but it's hardly like Lions teams are awash with these sorts of players as keeps being alleged or alluded to in this thread.

Convention is the word I was looking for, thanks sock.

There's no rules around just picking a full England team, but it'd still go against what the Lions stands for.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:25 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:00 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:05 am As JMK has mentioned, there's no issue with non- home nations coaches becoming involved provided they've done their time here up North. Robertson hasn't done that. If he wants to come up here and give it a crack for a few seasons before the next tour I'm sure we'd be happy to have him. Waltzing in without that contact and connection with our rugby environment isn't right.

Yeah. But this is just bollox expediency of the most hypocritical, isn't it? JMK and I have had disagreements on this before. He has correctly pointed out that all the poaches were within the rules/laws. The irony being that one who normally claims the ground as the moral arbiter was dispensing his gavel in this issue.

Well, here's at ya. What rule is broken in Razor acting in any coaching capacity for The Lions? Ans = NONE.

It's a little late to be playing the moral card on national identities. Thankfully, after decades of damage, France is trying to reverse the trend of foreign imports and poaches. I suspect our friends in the SH will be having no sympathy with your angst.

A lot of your comment seems to be about players, mine is about coach roles*.

Correct. I fail to see the distinction.

If anything, it should be the reverse i.e. it's long been an established element of many sports to employ foreign coaches/experts whereas fiddling the rules to alter the nationality in order to qualify as a player has become a murky art.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:28 am Convention is the word I was looking for, thanks sock.

There's no rules around just picking a full England team, but it'd still go against what the Lions stands for.

I suspect more relevantly, it would be a commercial disaster and the end of The Lions?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:35 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:28 am Convention is the word I was looking for, thanks sock.

There's no rules around just picking a full England team, but it'd still go against what the Lions stands for.

I suspect more relevantly, it would be a commercial disaster and the end of The Lions?

Likely, yes. And the Lions tours have been under threat for a while by the 'realities' of professional rugby. There's only so much damage it can take. Everything that chips away at the traditions is another nail in the coffin.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:43 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:35 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:28 am Convention is the word I was looking for, thanks sock.

There's no rules around just picking a full England team, but it'd still go against what the Lions stands for.

I suspect more relevantly, it would be a commercial disaster and the end of The Lions?

Likely, yes. And the Lions tours have been under threat for a while by the 'realities' of professional rugby. There's only so much damage it can take. Everything that chips away at the traditions is another nail in the coffin.

In 100% agreement and very much why I absolutely hate the whole flag of convenience sh*t that in now intl qualification.

BTW. No NH experience is not strictly true for Razor since he played at USAP although, of course, that was not coaching and France is not part of The Lions. Yet.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:13 am It's the continued jabs about being a "moral arbiter", Torq. You're being weird again. You were slagging me off on here before I even joined the forum and you've been stepping up the personal attacks over the last few days. Give it a rest?

As for your point, no-one is talking about the 'laws'. It would be 'legal', for example, for a player in Super Rugby who is English qualified but has never played in the NH to be selected by the Lions, but it would trigger exactly the same complaints. It's not about laws, because the Lions is built on tradition, not laws. Yes, the poaches have reduced that tradition somewhat, but they still represent the best of the constituent sides and are striving for the peak of what they can achieve as players. Some Kiwi who's never been part of NH rugby getting picked for the betterment of his career as a coach with one eye on being a future NZ coach is a mile away from that, which is the point you keep missing.

All of your 2nd paragraph. And I'm not missing the point at all; just calling out what I see as a degree of double standards. Razor is just the most blatant and cynical example of opportunism. Well, with the possible exception of a player lining up and not even knowing the words to a national anthem.

So let's start putting in stricter qualifying laws for players. Sneeca and I came up with one option way back in 2010:
- as soon as a player becomes professional or has the option to represent at grade level by selection if earlier, he has to make a choice which country he will represent under the qualifying rules in force at that time.
- end of for me although I am sympathetic to Sneeca's suggestion that players, after suitable qualifying, should be allowed to move down a tier. The problem there is defining a tier: witness Wales.