NPR

What is it about coaches that they seem to think they must reinvent the wheel by playing players out of position? Is it not enough to pick a team the whole effing world would pick just now? On form, the team should be... Moody, Taylor, Tungafaasi, Whitelock, Tuipolotu, Savea, Cane, Sotutu, Smith, Mounga, Clarke, Leinert-Brown, Goodhue, Bridge, J Barrett. Coles, Laulala, Tuinukuafe, Vai, Frizzell, Perenara, B Barrett and Jordan on the bench. Foster always says "the critics teams don't get to play," smart arse, well that's only because you make dumb selection decisions. Man-in-the-street teams would be far too sensible ay?

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:31 am Poor selections are not why we drew last weekend. I don’t recall much, if any, angst about the team before the game.

Was there not a general complaint about D Mac getting parachuted into the squad and the most obvious fullback replacement staying on the wing?

That was a pretty odd selection.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:25 pm

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:31 am Poor selections are not why we drew last weekend. I don’t recall much, if any, angst about the team before the game.

Was there not a general complaint about D Mac getting parachuted into the squad and the most obvious fullback replacement staying on the wing?

That was a pretty odd selection.

Pretty sure there was bit of angst about the back 3, plus some reservations on the loosies.

Unfortunately in terms of the forwards we seem to have what we have and bugger all else right behind. Gone are the days where our bench come on and blitz everyone because they are actually international starting quality. For a few years if we were within 15 with 20min to go you'd be confident we'd win. Now it looks like we need a lead in the last 10

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:31 am Poor selections are not why we drew last weekend. I don’t recall much, if any, angst about the team before the game.

You reckon?

You must have had your head in the sand.

I posted earlier that it’s too early to make a harsh judgement on Foster off the back of one game, despite me being one of the stronger critics of his appointment. I still feel that way. Difficult weather, first game rust, etc.

But your dedicated fence sitting takes whataboutery to some new level, previously undetected on the Beaufort scale of bullshittery. Plenty of us were shitfuckery fatigued enough to criticise the selections pre game in a manner perhaps not dramatic enough for you to pick up on. Perhaps you need Fozzie to be trundled out cable tied into a wheelchair and on fire to gain some insight into the discontent. I dunno. Perhaps your determination to be seen and fair, balanced and unbiased would see you dismiss that as some sort of childish prank.

Step aside from the selection issue for a second though, and consider that yet again, the ABs were outmuscled at the breakdown and rumbled with a fast moving defensive line that smothered them. Yet again.... how many times do you need to see that pattern repeated before you see it as a pattern. Patterns reveal everything. More than the dedicated moronity that is selections based on favourites fitting in over specialist position talent, we have a problem with failing at the breakdown. We are lazy, complacent and falling away from application of basics, presumably in favour of some grand plan that revolves around mercurial talent saving the day through the casual passing of miracles like bowel movements. It’s bullshit.

Still too early to tell, of course...

But we’re fucked.

When I said general angst seemed low I wasn’t referring to just this forum, so forgive me if I missed some of you howling away. Or maybe I just tune it out these days.

It doesn’t matter, because selections did not lose us that game. There were far more serious issues at play.

I understand the DMac selection too. He’s the most like-for-like player with BB and allows the rest of the team to play as intended. Basically, it was the minimal disruption option. It was also probably the most contentious, but Dmac has earned his stripes before now and I think the choice made sense.

Consider how well DMac performed at FB compared to Jordie... not to mention how shit Jordie is at wing.

I’m no fan of Jordie but he shat all over DMac at FB. What you’re defending is Fozzies love of the dual playmaker idea and it hasn’t worked in three years of trying. It’s a dud.

The rest is just bullshit and spin.

It’s not why we lost. DMac played badly and that can at least be argued but Jordie on the wing is way down the list of reasons the abs didn’t perform well.

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:30 am It’s not why we lost. DMac played badly and that can at least be argued but Jordie on the wing is way down the list of reasons the abs didn’t perform well.

Ok... I have my opinion on this. What’s yours?

Tactics mainly, followed by attitude. Coaching issues, just not selection issues. There was probably a bit of expectation for the players that this was a done deal too. The abs can get in a bit stuck if an easy beat suddenly proves to be not so easy.

The dual playmaker set up has run its course.

I would prefer us to go back to 'pure' fullbacks. Jordie is at 15 or hes not in the 23 at all.

10 I would have BB. But RM is ok too. We will need both, so one starts and one is on the bench.

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:48 am Tactics mainly, followed by attitude. Coaching issues, just not selection issues. There was probably a bit of expectation for the players that this was a done deal too. The abs can get in a bit stuck if an easy beat suddenly proves to be not so easy.

The easy beats put nearly 50 points on us last year.

On coaching, just heard parsons on the radio saying how they should do what crusaders (and a lot of other sides), do in that the first pod off 9 is 3 forwards. Last year and in this game they went with 2. Extra player holds up the defence from being able to shoot out and smash the 10, and he rated Mo'unga as outstanding at being able to use that extra space either himself or with a close runner.

Then once that area gets defended Mo'unga pulls out the kick pass etc to find space. Made a lot of sense

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:48 am Tactics mainly, followed by attitude. Coaching issues, just not selection issues. There was probably a bit of expectation for the players that this was a done deal too. The abs can get in a bit stuck if an easy beat suddenly proves to be not so easy.

I had a lengthy reply typed out and got blocked by the 403 forbidden gatekeeper.

Short answer is that it’s all down to coaching decisions.

All of it.

And we’re fucked.

Foster's Out Of Position Selections (OOPS)

Bold text indicates an OOPS.

1. Joe Moody (47)

2. Dane Coles (70)

3. Ofa Tuungafasi (36)

4. Patrick Tuipulotu (31)

5. Tupou Vaa’i (1)

6. Shannon Frizell (10)

7. Sam Cane (69) - captain

8. Ardie Savea (45)

9. Aaron Smith (93)

10. Richie Mo’unga (18)

11. Caleb Clarke (1)

12. Jack Goodhue (14)

13. Anton Lienert-Brown (44)

14. Jordie Barrett (18)

15. Beauden Barrett (84)



16. Codie Taylor (51)

17. Alex Hodgman - debut

18. Nepo Laulala (27)

19. Scott Barrett (36)

20. Hoskins Sotutu (1)

21. TJ Perenara (65)

22. Rieko Ioane (30)

23. Damian McKenzie (24)

Just the one OOPs this week, although a strong case could be made for the 12 and 13 combo being the other way around.

It will be good to bring on the big bodies of Barrett and Sotutu late in the game with the potential game breaking skills of Ioane and McKenzie.

Good to see Ioane benched.

The most obvious oops is ALB and Goodhue. Goodhue is supposed to be the next great centre but has never been exceptional further in. ALB can play 12 so why switch them?

The second most obvious is Ardie, an open side, at no.8. Ardie has experience at 8 and has played well there but he’s clearly a 7.

The third is Jordie, who is a fullback but fullbacks on the wing are more than a little common for the abs (and rugby teams in general) as the skills are heavily transferable, so not as bad as the Ardie switch.

My take anyway.

Fullback on the wing usually brings his natural pace though.

Jordie being included for... what? His boot? His height?

His surname?

Yes, his ability in the air and his boot. He was also the best fb in the country this year so he’s not a bad player or anything.

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:19 pm Yes, his ability in the air and his boot. He was also the best fb in the country this year so he’s not a bad player or anything.

Yes. I haven’t argued that he’s in the picture as a valid option... at FB.

Cool, and I put him on my list as out of position so I guess we might not have quite found a middle ground, but we can probably see each other on a clear day?

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:56 pm Cool, and I put him on my list as out of position so I guess we might not have quite found a middle ground, but we can probably see each other on a clear day?

My problem with the selection is that it fits Foster’s pattern of problematic selections that favour playing individuals in order to fit them in regardless of positional speciality, suitability or combinations.

Fosters not the only person guilty of that though. Robertson does it a lot in his backline (Centres and outside backs).

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:05 am Fosters not the only person guilty of that though. Robertson does it a lot in his backline (Centres and outside backs).

I think you have him confused with his predecessor, Blacky Toddadder.

Carter at 12, anyone?

Is Goodhue a 12 or a 13
Ennor a 13 or wing
Jordan a fb or a wing
Did he ever play havili somewhere other than fb? Pretty sure he did.

For the record, I don’t disagree with any of his decisions. Just making a point. Although I’d love to see Goodhue back at 13.

Who did carter make way for when Blackadder was coaching? Was that when he was taking insane weeks off the super campaign?

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:26 am Is Goodhue a 12 or a 13
Ennor a 13 or wing
Jordan a fb or a wing
Did he ever play havili somewhere other than fb? Pretty sure he did.

For the record, I don’t disagree with any of his decisions. Just making a point. Although I’d love to see Goodhue back at 13.

Who did carter make way for when Blackadder was coaching? Was that when he was taking insane weeks off the super campaign?

Carter started out playing 12 outside Merhtens. I don’t remember Blackadder playing him there although he spent shedloads of time out with injury. Might have had something to do with that, dunno.

Ennor is a luxury to have in your team. Fast enough for wing, capable at 13. Best way to employ his talent is to develop him at 13 knowing you can move him out if needed. Also good character development for him... he has a touch of the dickhead to aspects of his play.

Jordan at 14 or 15 is hardly controversial. Howlett played both, so did Goldie. It’s hardly unusual.

The standout was Havili named at 10 for a game because there was no one else left to play there. It didn’t really work out. He’s good enough to cover most of the backline in a pinch but not 10.

It’s a stretch to try and use Razor’s deployment of players around the backline to try and justify Fozzie’s insistence of playing guys away from their best position though. This is test rugby. Not super rugby where you can get away with a looser approach.

You can do some mind bending exercises wondering why Carter played 12, or you can just accept the obvious.

Blackadder was a shit coach.

He started his career in the position but has since established himself has one of the best first-fives ever. Now Dan Carter has been named at second-five as the Crusaders look to unsettle the unbeaten Stormers.

In a surprise move, 23-year-old Tom Taylor, in his first season at this level, has been given the job to guide his team around Christchurch Stadium on Saturday night.

With Carter missing three relatively easy penalties in his last game against the Bulls, a 32-30 loss for the Crusaders, the Crusaders have felt it necessary to select Taylor for his accurate goalkicking. The question remains why Taylor is at first-five - he has also proven to be capable at second-five, and moved there when Carter made his return in the victory over the Cheetahs in Christchurch.

Even Carter expressed some surprise at the switch but said it made sense. "Having two five-eighths out on the field, it gives the team the chance to have a left foot, right foot combination and two ball-playing five eighths,'' he said.

Like the idea of moving back to the ball playing 12, but relies on having someone else being able to punch gaps.

Ideally Laumape would keep developing his distribution game and get a kicking game going

Monkey Magic wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:45 am
On coaching, just heard parsons on the radio saying how they should do what crusaders (and a lot of other sides), do in that the first pod off 9 is 3 forwards. Last year and in this game they went with 2. Extra player holds up the defence from being able to shoot out and smash the 10, and he rated Mo'unga as outstanding at being able to use that extra space either himself or with a close runner.

Then once that area gets defended Mo'unga pulls out the kick pass etc to find space. Made a lot of sense

Annnnd this is why I don't get a shit about pro / international rugby any more. When the All Blacks have to rely on such structured play, I'm out.

I know defences are so tight but would also argue teams aren't thinking out of the box enough. They're basically all using the same strategy and tactics.

Congratulations to Ian Foster on a first test win and pretty good performance. We got the bounce back we hoped for - maybe we always would have so let’s see what happens in Australia, but benefit of the doubt, credit where credit is due.

I forgot to post the other day, but as a key mart of Fozzie's brainstrust, Grant Fox put in a particularly petulant shift on the Breakdown the other night. The questions deserved to be asked, yet he was a proper 'Trump' when it came to the initial responses. He bristled like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar!

Turbster wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:43 am I forgot to post the other day, but as a key mart of Fozzie's brainstrust, Grant Fox put in a particularly petulant shift on the Breakdown the other night. The questions deserved to be asked, yet he was a proper 'Trump' when it came to the initial responses. He bristled like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar!

Odd, considering he was the one intelligent rugger player back when there were precious few around.

Jb1981 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:45 am Congratulations to Ian Foster on a first test win and pretty good performance. We got the bounce back we hoped for - maybe we always would have so let’s see what happens in Australia, but benefit of the doubt, credit where be credit is due.

True, a better second half he can be credited for. The first half certainly wasn’t going to plan. If the Aussies had taken a few of those makable penalties up early, it might well have been a different game outcome.

Shall we call Fozzies ABs “the unbeatables”

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:26 am Is Goodhue a 12 or a 13
Ennor a 13 or wing
Jordan a fb or a wing
Did he ever play havili somewhere other than fb? Pretty sure he did.

For the record, I don’t disagree with any of his decisions. Just making a point. Although I’d love to see Goodhue back at 13.

Who did carter make way for when Blackadder was coaching? Was that when he was taking insane weeks off the super campaign?

Goodhue ran a bunch of really intelligent lines at 12, rather than at a player, and in some ways I think his style is going to work better for the ABs as long as there is a power balance, with someone like Caleb at wing.

Goodhue was definitely better today, and agree you need that power player. I wonder how long they’ve been eying up Clarke.

Imo Clarke is better than Bridge

Has been all season.

The power he has is what the All Blacks is missing on the wing.

14 is still undecided . Which is a worry. Jordie is the ultimate impact utility he can cover 10,12,14,15 and he can kick goals. If I were the AB coach I would do a 5/3 split and have Jordie, TJ and Dmac on the bench


9 Smith
10 Rmo
11 Clarke
12 Goodhue
13 ALB
14. Jordan
15 BB

Get rid of Bridge, Reece and Reiko altogether.

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:46 am Imo Clarke is better than Bridge

Has been all season.

The power he has is what the All Blacks is missing on the wing.

14 is still undecided . Which is a worry. Jordie is the ultimate impact utility he can cover 10,12,14,15 and he can kick goals. If I were the AB coach I would do a 5/3 split and have Jordie, TJ and Dmac on the bench


9 Smith
10 Rmo
11 Clarke
12 Goodhue
13 ALB
14. Jordan
15 BB

Get rid of Bridge, Reece and Reiko altogether.

That’s likely my starting back line. Though feel like I’d want Lumpy there too at the expense of possibly Goodhue.

Fozzie still OUT.

That team were living off individual brilliance yesterday, the shape and consistency of the team performance is still nowhere near where it needs to be.

Looking at what Rennie is doing with a very raw and far from battle-hardened Wallabies, and weeping for what we could have had.

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:46 am Imo Clarke is better than Bridge

Has been all season.

The power he has is what the All Blacks is missing on the wing.

14 is still undecided . Which is a worry. Jordie is the ultimate impact utility he can cover 10,12,14,15 and he can kick goals. If I were the AB coach I would do a 5/3 split and have Jordie, TJ and Dmac on the bench


9 Smith
10 Rmo
11 Clarke
12 Goodhue
13 ALB
14. Jordan
15 BB

Get rid of Bridge, Reece and Reiko altogether.

Agree with the players you have cut.

Think your centres are the wrong way around and id ideally have a 12 with one or the other of ALB and Goodhue.

I also think its BB or RMO at 10 and both shouldn't be on the field together. Ive seen enough of this dual pivot thing now. If the AB's cant make it work at this stage forget about it. Only a matter of time before Ennor forces his way onto the bench too. Havili is better than Mckenzie for me also.

Monkey Magic wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:19 pm Like the idea of moving back to the ball playing 12, but relies on having someone else being able to punch gaps.

Ideally Laumape would keep developing his distribution game and get a kicking game going

Just because he’s brown it doesn’t mean he can’t pass.

el camino wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:14 pm

Monkey Magic wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:19 pm Like the idea of moving back to the ball playing 12, but relies on having someone else being able to punch gaps.

Ideally Laumape would keep developing his distribution game and get a kicking game going

Just because he’s brown it doesn’t mean he can’t pass.

I didn't say he couldn't pass but he is more an inside centre than a 2nd five. Do you think he is in the same league as toomua as an organizer/distributor?

el camino wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:14 pm

Monkey Magic wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:19 pm Like the idea of moving back to the ball playing 12, but relies on having someone else being able to punch gaps.

Ideally Laumape would keep developing his distribution game and get a kicking game going

Just because he’s brown it doesn’t mean he can’t pass.

What a random comment. Our best passers are Aaron Smith and Richie Mo'unga, who are both brown. Laumape has never been a creative 12 and has always lacked a world class distribution game. He's a ball runner.