NPR

stemoc wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:35 am Sam Cane is a bench option, not a starter. i rate papali'i, Kirifi, Lamborn (who doesn't even have a super contract) and ofcourse Boshier well ahead of Sam Concussionane

Man you have a habit of going off on random tangents. You seriously rate Tony Lamborn over Sam Cane? Wtf?!

Boshier probably made more turnovers in this year's Soup NZ than cane did his own career..

stemoc wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:25 am Boshier probably made more turnovers in this year's Soup NZ than cane did his own career..

Agreed. In fact I think he effected more turnovers in one match, against Canterbury in this year's Mitre 10 Cup, than Sam Cane has in his whole career.

stemoc wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:25 am Boshier probably made more turnovers in this year's Soup NZ than cane did his own career..

He probably made more turnovers than Richie McCaw did too especially later in his career, but that has f*** all to do with anything. A number 7 has a lot more to do than just win turnovers. That was about 6-10 years ago that was their seemingly main and only job.

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:04 am

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:25 am You'd make a better rocket scientist than rugby selector, Not_Couch. Comparing Cane's six full games leading from the front to Akira's one and a bit tests is daft for a start...

Gotta say, anyone suggesting Sam Cane is a shit rugby player knows sweet fuck all about the game.

If youre suggesting that Ardie is not better than Cane than you know sweet fuck all about Rugby.

Numbers don't lie. Only fanboys such as yourself and Jimmy.

Sports is an analytical game these days, get with the times.

So according to you, selectors shouldn't watch rugby, just read figures?? Figures that don't show where tackles were made, and runs etc etc. It is so easy when people know little about how rugby is played to use figures to build up or knock down players in any position. I had same argument with a poster calling for Akira to be an AB last year, he quoted metres run and tackles, but didn't want to discuss where the tackles were made etc etc, and what were dominant tackles.

Sam Canes numbers contradict any of his fanboys claims that he is worthy of the 7 Jersey.

He isn't a captain's arsehole, and he isn't the best 7 in the country, he's effectively a teachers pet and has been groomed by Foster as his guy since he started as assistant.

I also remember how he was fast tracked into the all Blacks as a McCaw wannabe when he wasn't even good enough to polish McCaws shoes, hell he was the reserve chiefs 7 behind Tanerau Latimer ffs.

This has been a setup by Foster since the beginning.

Dan54 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:01 pm

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:04 am

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:25 am You'd make a better rocket scientist than rugby selector, Not_Couch. Comparing Cane's six full games leading from the front to Akira's one and a bit tests is daft for a start...

Gotta say, anyone suggesting Sam Cane is a shit rugby player knows sweet fuck all about the game.

If youre suggesting that Ardie is not better than Cane than you know sweet fuck all about Rugby.

Numbers don't lie. Only fanboys such as yourself and Jimmy.

Sports is an analytical game these days, get with the times.

So according to you, selectors shouldn't watch rugby, just read figures?? Figures that don't show where tackles were made, and runs etc etc. It is so easy when people know little about how rugby is played to use figures to build up or knock down players in any position. I had same argument with a poster calling for Akira to be an AB last year, he quoted metres run and tackles, but didn't want to discuss where the tackles were made etc etc, and what were dominant tackles.

I literally showed numbers in a game where all the All Blacks had good numbers across the board in a blowout game, the whole team played collectively well, so the loose trio wouldh have had a field day , in this instance Savea and Akira were great, there's no denying that, I'm proving you all wrong that Savea deserves the 7 Jersey and Sotutu needs to play 8.

You can argue numbers with hypotheticals, I'll kill you every time.

Also having Sam Cane out there is one less lineout option, if we had a trio of Savea Sotutu and Ioane, plus our Whitelock and Brodie? thats a problem for any defence.

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:17 pm Also having Sam Cane out there is one less lineout option, if we had a trio of Savea Sotutu and Ioane, plus our Whitelock and Brodie? thats a problem for any defence.

Is this the same lineout that's currently ranked the best in the world? Yeah, clearly having Sam Cane in our lineout's been a huge problem...

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:17 pm Also having Sam Cane out there is one less lineout option, if we had a trio of Savea Sotutu and Ioane, plus our Whitelock and Brodie? thats a problem for any defence.

You don't need four jumpers. You need three tall players to jump and/or lift. In the last RWC cycle our lineout was awesome with the two locks and Read as targets, but with a taller 6 who could help lift. Keeping in mind our reserve lock, Scott Barrett, rarely wins lineouts but is a very good lifter.

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:57 pm

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:17 pm Also having Sam Cane out there is one less lineout option, if we had a trio of Savea Sotutu and Ioane, plus our Whitelock and Brodie? thats a problem for any defence.

Is this the same lineout that's currently ranked the best in the world? Yeah, clearly having Sam Cane in our lineout's been a huge problem...

3rd best. England and South Africa are better

Carter's Choice wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:41 pm

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:17 pm Also having Sam Cane out there is one less lineout option, if we had a trio of Savea Sotutu and Ioane, plus our Whitelock and Brodie? thats a problem for any defence.

You don't need four jumpers. You need three tall players to jump and/or lift. In the last RWC cycle our lineout was awesome with the two locks and Read as targets, but with a taller 6 who could help lift. Keeping in mind our reserve lock, Scott Barrett, rarely wins lineouts but is a very good lifter.

I would argue you do incase of injury. Variety is key, of course having 2 locks that can catch is the best option, but it's a luxury to have a jumping 8 and 7 to vary the calls and keep the opposition guessing.

We've never had 4 genuine targets since I have been watching Rugby over the past 40 years. Our lineout has never functioned better than it has during the Hansen era, with Kieran Read the main target and Retallick and Whitelock as secondary targets. During this era Read won more lineouts than the two locks combined. Sure, we occasionally threw to other players for variety, like McCaw and Kaino, but we never had four genuine targets under Hansen and this won't change under Foster. Why would it?

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:16 am

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:57 pm

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:17 pm Also having Sam Cane out there is one less lineout option, if we had a trio of Savea Sotutu and Ioane, plus our Whitelock and Brodie? thats a problem for any defence.

Is this the same lineout that's currently ranked the best in the world? Yeah, clearly having Sam Cane in our lineout's been a huge problem...

3rd best. England and South Africa are better

The last time we played South Africa we beat them. I'm not convinced they are better than us on the back of (another) fortuitous Rugby World Cup draw.

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:05 am The last time we played South Africa we beat them. I'm not convinced they are better than us on the back of (another) fortuitous Rugby World Cup draw.

This year the Boks really are the Charlie Ngatai of world Rugby. The less they play the better they become.

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:05 am

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:16 am

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:57 pm

Is this the same lineout that's currently ranked the best in the world? Yeah, clearly having Sam Cane in our lineout's been a huge problem...

3rd best. England and South Africa are better

The last time we played South Africa we beat them. I'm not convinced they are better than us on the back of (another) fortuitous Rugby World Cup draw.

Lol it didn't matter then and it doesn't matter now, They are the World Champions not us. Deal with it.

They improved during the tournament and we regressed, that's the facts. You're wrong saying that we were better, because at the end of the day when it mattered most, they beat the team that beat us.

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:14 am

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:05 am

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:16 am

3rd best. England and South Africa are better

The last time we played South Africa we beat them. I'm not convinced they are better than us on the back of (another) fortuitous Rugby World Cup draw.

Lol it didn't matter then and it doesn't matter now, They are the World Champions not us. Deal with it.

They improved during the tournament and we regressed, that's the facts. You're wrong saying that we were better, because at the end of the day when it mattered most, they beat the team that beat us.

Oh I dealt with it at the time. I was pretty relaxed as I watched the ABs get outplayed by England, they just lost to the better team on the day.

Tournament play is a funny thing. England weren't half the side they were in the final, and South Africa played very well.

Does that then make South Africa better than NZ, today? Not in my book.

I'd have to see them play each other again.

It will be interesting to see how taking the year off test match Rugby will impact on the Springboks. It may have no impact at all. But typically over a RWC cycle, the first two years are used to introduce new players. With no Rugby this year, and an important Lions tour next year, young players will have minimal opportunities to impress for the Springboks until 2022. This could make a difference as they prepare for 2023.

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:08 pm

Dan54 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:01 pm

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:04 am

If youre suggesting that Ardie is not better than Cane than you know sweet fuck all about Rugby.

Numbers don't lie. Only fanboys such as yourself and Jimmy.

Sports is an analytical game these days, get with the times.

So according to you, selectors shouldn't watch rugby, just read figures?? Figures that don't show where tackles were made, and runs etc etc. It is so easy when people know little about how rugby is played to use figures to build up or knock down players in any position. I had same argument with a poster calling for Akira to be an AB last year, he quoted metres run and tackles, but didn't want to discuss where the tackles were made etc etc, and what were dominant tackles.

I literally showed numbers in a game where all the All Blacks had good numbers across the board in a blowout game, the whole team played collectively well, so the loose trio wouldh have had a field day , in this instance Savea and Akira were great, there's no denying that, I'm proving you all wrong that Savea deserves the 7 Jersey and Sotutu needs to play 8.

You can argue numbers with hypotheticals, I'll kill you every time.

Right go and have a look at numbers when our tighties haven't done their job, any loosie who has good figures you know is bloody good!, And you might kill me with figures everytime, I have never used figure to rate players, never have never will. But I do agree if you don't know the game very well you can use it for arguments against others that are of same knowledge level.

stemoc wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:35 am Sam Cane is a bench option, not a starter. i rate papali'i, Kirifi, Lamborn (who doesn't even have a super contract) and ofcourse Boshier well ahead of Sam Concussionane

Another one with no memory of 2019 and how well we played without him.

An aside from the main purpose of this thread but I just saw this on Facebook and thought that our current side has very few stars compared to these sides.

Has the factory gone into slow mode? Our current side could not beat any of these teams

“Accommodate a Barrett” even features in hypothetical teams of the decade. Beauden Barrett would have played a handful of games at fullback but he’s there for the 2010s. If they are naming Ben Smith on the wing, surely Dagg takes 15.

Enzedder wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:05 am

stemoc wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:35 am Sam Cane is a bench option, not a starter. i rate papali'i, Kirifi, Lamborn (who doesn't even have a super contract) and ofcourse Boshier well ahead of Sam Concussionane

Another one with no memory of 2019 and how well we played without him.

Openside are supposed to do turnovers, if they don't they play at 6..at this stage i prefer Hooper at 7 for NZ than Cane even though hooper is oz capped.

stemoc wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:22 am

Enzedder wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:05 am

stemoc wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:35 am Sam Cane is a bench option, not a starter. i rate papali'i, Kirifi, Lamborn (who doesn't even have a super contract) and ofcourse Boshier well ahead of Sam Concussionane

Another one with no memory of 2019 and how well we played without him.

Openside are supposed to do turnovers, if they don't they play at 6..at this stage i prefer Hooper at 7 for NZ than Cane even though hooper is oz capped.

Jb1981 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:41 am “Accommodate a Barrett” even features in hypothetical teams of the decade. Beauden Barrett would have played a handful of games at fullback but he’s there for the 2010s. If they are naming Ben Smith on the wing, surely Dagg takes 15.

I was thinking that. What a ridiculous shoe horning of a Barrett. Aside from 2019, how many starting caps for Barrett at full back.

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:08 am

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:41 am

stemoc wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:17 am being slightly biased but Sotutu is the 8 the AB's need but the longer they have shitcane at 7, the less likelihood of ardie playing in his best position which means hoskisn will get wasted and forgottten (like todd).. fozzie is making the same mistake hansen did by intentionally not playing ardie at 7 ..pooper was a huge fail and Sardie will be too or is it Cardie AB?

Savea is fuck all at 7. He was anonymous in the first half of the RWC semi final, although far from the only forward who failed to turn up.

Cane has been close to the All Blacks' best player in this truncated season.

You have some weird fucking takes at times, comets.

This statement reveals why you know sweet fuck all about Rugby

Here's the official match stats in the last in AB game vs Argentina (taken from ESPN.com)

Akira Ioane

Passes. 7
Runs. 9
Metres Run. 41
Defenders Beaten. 2
Offloads. 0
Tackles. 8
Turnovers conceded. 0


Sam Cane

Passes. 7
Runs. 8
Metres Run. 13. (From 8 carries? seriously to wtf???)
Defenders Beaten. 0
Offloads. 1
Tackles. 5
Turnovers conceded 1 ( our specialist 7 with a grand total of 1 yes 1 turnover )

Ardie Savea

Passes. 5
Runs. 15
Metres Run. 47
Defenders Beaten. 7
Offloads. 1
Tackles 2
Turnovers conceded 0

Its not rocket science that Ardie and Akira had the better game that night in a convincing victory.

Uh, dude, the word "conceded" doesn't mean what you think it does. Turnovers conceded = how many times they gave the ball away. ESPN doesn't record how many turnovers players won.

Kelvin R Tremain Memorial Player of the Year: Sam Cane

All Blacks Player of the Year: Sam Cane

Gumboot wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:15 am

Kelvin R Tremain Memorial Player of the Year: Sam Cane

All Blacks Player of the Year: Sam Cane

Most losing games as captain of 2020:
Sam Cane

Haters gonna hate.

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:00 am Haters gonna hate.

How true.

Dan54 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:59 am

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:00 am Haters gonna hate.

How true.

When the players pick him, you know he's well rated.

Enzedder wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:19 am

Dan54 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:59 am

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:00 am Haters gonna hate.

How true.

When the players pick him, you know he's well rated.

Yep and there is not one person who posts on here who have anywhere near the knowledge of team mates.
Who would of thought huh? The players on the field actually playing the game would know who is good!

So I think it has to shut up all arguments!

Dan54 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:27 pm

Enzedder wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:19 am

Dan54 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:59 am
How true.

When the players pick him, you know he's well rated.

Yep and there is not one person who posts on here who have anywhere near the knowledge of team mates.
Who would of thought huh? The players on the field actually playing the game would know who is good!

So I think it has to shut up all arguments!

Are discussions about rugby still allowed? You seem to take a strongly defensive attitude to this. I would have thought our passion for the game and the debate it generates is a good thing and why NZ has excelled for so long.

Jb1981 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:52 pm

Dan54 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:27 pm

Enzedder wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:19 am

When the players pick him, you know he's well rated.

Yep and there is not one person who posts on here who have anywhere near the knowledge of team mates.
Who would of thought huh? The players on the field actually playing the game would know who is good!

So I think it has to shut up all arguments!

Are discussions about rugby still allowed? You seem to take a strongly defensive attitude to this. I would have thought our passion for the game and the debate it generates is a good thing and why NZ has excelled for so long.

According to Dan 54, no-one is allowed to have an opinion on Rugby because we are all stupid and know nothing. And anyone who disagrees with anything that Ian Foster says or does is apparently anti-NZ Rugby and anti-All Blacks.

I didn’t learn much, not enough games to draw any real conclusions. My main concern is the coaches are going to be as bad as I feared.

Otherwise, the main standout is I don’t recall a recent period with more angry and frustrated opinions from fans than currently. Possibly deans vs Henry but that was limited to coaching.

Currently, we have:

Foster is shit (to say nothing of how good Robertson appears to be)

Treatment of Will Jordan

Sam cane is a terrible captain (and white lock should be captain)

The Ioane brothers have attitude problems and should be nowhere near the jersey (Akira has possibly halted this assessment of him for the time being)

Any Barrett in the squad is riding on the coat tails of 2016

BB is holding the team to random with his unreasonable demands

I’m sure there’s more.

Im not commenting on the accuracy of these, as some are clearly close to the mark. Just the way it’s being discussed. There’s a lot of angry arm chair coaches right now.

Jb1981 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:52 pm

Dan54 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:27 pm

Enzedder wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:19 am

When the players pick him, you know he's well rated.

Yep and there is not one person who posts on here who have anywhere near the knowledge of team mates.
Who would of thought huh? The players on the field actually playing the game would know who is good!

So I think it has to shut up all arguments!

Are discussions about rugby still allowed? You seem to take a strongly defensive attitude to this. I would have thought our passion for the game and the debate it generates is a good thing and why NZ has excelled for so long.

Yep of course discusion is what we want . that is why we come here. My point is I would find it more palatable if someone said "in my opinion" such and such is no good, instead of he's useless, not even best 10/15/7/6 or whatever. We had a posts in here saying that some though posters knew more than selectors ,coaches etc etc.
Mate I have plenty of opinions on rugby, and a bloody lot of them get to proved not the best, and I happy to acknowledge that, but I don't assume I KNOW more than people involved.

Carter's Choice wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:25 pm

Jb1981 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:52 pm

Dan54 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:27 pm

Yep and there is not one person who posts on here who have anywhere near the knowledge of team mates.
Who would of thought huh? The players on the field actually playing the game would know who is good!

So I think it has to shut up all arguments!

Are discussions about rugby still allowed? You seem to take a strongly defensive attitude to this. I would have thought our passion for the game and the debate it generates is a good thing and why NZ has excelled for so long.

According to Dan 54, no-one is allowed to have an opinion on Rugby because we are all stupid and know nothing. And anyone who disagrees with anything that Ian Foster says or does is apparently anti-NZ Rugby and anti-All Blacks.

Don't tar everyone else with your brush, I have never called ANY posters 'know nothings' like yourself. Would never call anyone stupid or know nothing anyway, feel most do it by themselves with their posts!
And even if I did you prehaps need to know the difference in 'we are all' and 'I am' .

I’ve learned that the All Black selectors know Diddly Squat about picking an AB team. I’d rather go for teams selected on this here bored than what’s been selected and run out this year, including its Captain. Imo.

We shouldn’t criticize Napoleon for invading Russia in the winter. None of us are generals or have even conducted an invasion.