NPR

On top of energy bills I remortgaged 6 months in advance and its gone from 1.99 to 3.54% for a fixed deal which amounts to a £120 hit pcm.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:21 am
We've been subsidising extraction of oil and gas for a long time now, iirc we receive some of the lowest tax returns in the world from oil and gas companies.

That line should read:
"we receive some of the lowest tax returns in the world from ALL companies".

Only realised last week that when I moved into this house in Dec 2018, not massively thinking about energy prices, that I set the hot water to come on for 2hrs in the morning and 2hrs in the evening.

Ridiculous, what a tit. That's now fixed.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:29 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:04 am I was only half listening (as was only half awake), but earlier there was an item on the R4 Today programme that had an interview with a restauranteur in Calais and one in Dover. The French geezer is seeing a 4% increase in his energy bills and his English counterpart is contemplating his costs going from £15K to around £100K.

I've seen a figure flying around that we in the UK get <5% of our gas from Russia.

edit, Google tells me the UK gets 3% of its gas from Russia

Raggs is correct, gas is a global market and the world's second largest supplier being removed from the market ends up in everyone's prices going up. Doesn't matter we get most of our energy from the north sea as the producers don't give us better contracts because it's our sea they're drilling.

France are paying for the increase through the governments magic money tree. Macron is signalling in December they'll have to change that. This is a Europe wide issue that nobody is protected from and all economies will be very damaged.

I think you've missed my point. We are a producer, yet get little in return.

In the last few years the UK Gov has lowered the three taxes oil and gas extraction companies pay in the UK. Corporation tax has gone from 24% to 19%, supplementary charge has gone from 35% to 10% and the petroleum revenue tax has plummeted from 50% to 0 (zero).
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... s/sn00341/

meanwhile profits, and shareholders, are doing quite nicely

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ndfall-tax

The increase in global prices could be mitigated for UK consumers via taxation.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:08 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:29 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:04 am I was only half listening (as was only half awake), but earlier there was an item on the R4 Today programme that had an interview with a restauranteur in Calais and one in Dover. The French geezer is seeing a 4% increase in his energy bills and his English counterpart is contemplating his costs going from £15K to around £100K.

I've seen a figure flying around that we in the UK get <5% of our gas from Russia.

edit, Google tells me the UK gets 3% of its gas from Russia

Raggs is correct, gas is a global market and the world's second largest supplier being removed from the market ends up in everyone's prices going up. Doesn't matter we get most of our energy from the north sea as the producers don't give us better contracts because it's our sea they're drilling.

France are paying for the increase through the governments magic money tree. Macron is signalling in December they'll have to change that. This is a Europe wide issue that nobody is protected from and all economies will be very damaged.

I think you've missed my point. We are a producer, yet get little in return.

In the last few years the UK Gov has lowered the three taxes oil and gas extraction companies pay in the UK. Corporation tax has gone from 24% to 19%, supplementary charge has gone from 35% to 10% and the petroleum revenue tax has plummeted from 50% to 0 (zero).
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... s/sn00341/

meanwhile profits, and shareholders, are doing quite nicely

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ndfall-tax

The increase in global prices could be mitigated for UK consumers via taxation.

We tax them more, they increase their prices to offset the extra tax to ensure their shareholders and top executives continue to get the same amount.

We're at a point in capitalism where the corporations have more power because they own the government. The government could actually put in a cap, but they're getting wealthy too, so who gives a shit about the little people.

Raggs wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:11 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:08 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:29 am

Raggs is correct, gas is a global market and the world's second largest supplier being removed from the market ends up in everyone's prices going up. Doesn't matter we get most of our energy from the north sea as the producers don't give us better contracts because it's our sea they're drilling.

France are paying for the increase through the governments magic money tree. Macron is signalling in December they'll have to change that. This is a Europe wide issue that nobody is protected from and all economies will be very damaged.

I think you've missed my point. We are a producer, yet get little in return.

In the last few years the UK Gov has lowered the three taxes oil and gas extraction companies pay in the UK. Corporation tax has gone from 24% to 19%, supplementary charge has gone from 35% to 10% and the petroleum revenue tax has plummeted from 50% to 0 (zero).
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... s/sn00341/

meanwhile profits, and shareholders, are doing quite nicely

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ndfall-tax

The increase in global prices could be mitigated for UK consumers via taxation.

We tax them more, they increase their prices to offset the extra tax to ensure their shareholders and top executives continue to get the same amount.

We're at a point in capitalism where the corporations have more power because they own the government. The government could actually put in a cap, but they're getting wealthy too, so who gives a shit about the little people.

That's part of my argument about why essentials such as energy provision, defence, health, affordable housing, education etc should be owned by all of us.
Let the private sector provide the goods we want to make life nicer.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:08 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:29 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:04 am I was only half listening (as was only half awake), but earlier there was an item on the R4 Today programme that had an interview with a restauranteur in Calais and one in Dover. The French geezer is seeing a 4% increase in his energy bills and his English counterpart is contemplating his costs going from £15K to around £100K.

I've seen a figure flying around that we in the UK get <5% of our gas from Russia.

edit, Google tells me the UK gets 3% of its gas from Russia

Raggs is correct, gas is a global market and the world's second largest supplier being removed from the market ends up in everyone's prices going up. Doesn't matter we get most of our energy from the north sea as the producers don't give us better contracts because it's our sea they're drilling.

France are paying for the increase through the governments magic money tree. Macron is signalling in December they'll have to change that. This is a Europe wide issue that nobody is protected from and all economies will be very damaged.

I think you've missed my point. We are a producer, yet get little in return.

In the last few years the UK Gov has lowered the three taxes oil and gas extraction companies pay in the UK. Corporation tax has gone from 24% to 19%, supplementary charge has gone from 35% to 10% and the petroleum revenue tax has plummeted from 50% to 0 (zero).
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... s/sn00341/

meanwhile profits, and shareholders, are doing quite nicely

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ndfall-tax

The increase in global prices could be mitigated for UK consumers via taxation.

You'd expect them to increase their payouts because they're currently involved in profiteering.

Taxes etc reduced so much because the price of extraction was becoming unappealing for the majors and so they started to wind down operations.

Raggs wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:11 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:08 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:29 am

Raggs is correct, gas is a global market and the world's second largest supplier being removed from the market ends up in everyone's prices going up. Doesn't matter we get most of our energy from the north sea as the producers don't give us better contracts because it's our sea they're drilling.

France are paying for the increase through the governments magic money tree. Macron is signalling in December they'll have to change that. This is a Europe wide issue that nobody is protected from and all economies will be very damaged.

I think you've missed my point. We are a producer, yet get little in return.

In the last few years the UK Gov has lowered the three taxes oil and gas extraction companies pay in the UK. Corporation tax has gone from 24% to 19%, supplementary charge has gone from 35% to 10% and the petroleum revenue tax has plummeted from 50% to 0 (zero).
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... s/sn00341/

meanwhile profits, and shareholders, are doing quite nicely

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ndfall-tax

The increase in global prices could be mitigated for UK consumers via taxation.

We tax them more, they increase their prices to offset the extra tax to ensure their shareholders and top executives continue to get the same amount.

We're at a point in capitalism where the corporations have more power because they own the government. The government could actually put in a cap, but they're getting wealthy too, so who gives a shit about the little people.

Raggs has a point as when usage falls prices have to increase to keep profit margins, share prices and dividends up (and maintain the infrastructure and staffing but the brief from the senior management at the time didnt mention these).

Edit: I know a lot of people who are now looking to upgrade insulation and get solar and batteries. This is great but could make it worse for those who can't get those systems.

An increase in Ireland but drastically less than the UK

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:19 amThat's part of my argument about why essentials such as energy provision, defence, health, affordable housing, education etc should be owned by all of us.
Let the private sector provide the goods we want to make life nicer.

Agree completely. Essentials should be nationalised.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:17 pm The next govt are looking to cut business rates to ease pressures on business (although still not sure how some are covering the uncapped energy costs) and renewables pricing will no longer be tied to gas which both make sense.

Do you have a link for that?

Raggs wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:30 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:19 amThat's part of my argument about why essentials such as energy provision, defence, health, affordable housing, education etc should be owned by all of us.
Let the private sector provide the goods we want to make life nicer.

Agree completely. Essentials should be nationalised.

Including food and at least some supermarkets?

GogLais wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:52 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:30 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:19 amThat's part of my argument about why essentials such as energy provision, defence, health, affordable housing, education etc should be owned by all of us.
Let the private sector provide the goods we want to make life nicer.

Agree completely. Essentials should be nationalised.

Including food and at least some supermarkets?

I thought about it briefly but didn't want to dig in and get lost down a rabbit hole. I think the market is wide enough to support capitalism for food, there's enough competition to prevent gouging like we're seeing for energy/water/public transport.

petej wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:35 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:17 pm The next govt are looking to cut business rates to ease pressures on business (although still not sure how some are covering the uncapped energy costs) and renewables pricing will no longer be tied to gas which both make sense.

Do you have a link for that?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t-by-costs

They should also cap O&G profits but decoupling renewables pricing is an immediate win.

Raggs wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:54 am

GogLais wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:52 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:30 am

Agree completely. Essentials should be nationalised.

Including food and at least some supermarkets?

I thought about it briefly but didn't want to dig in and get lost down a rabbit hole. I think the market is wide enough to support capitalism for food, there's enough competition to prevent gouging like we're seeing for energy/water/public transport.

Fair point.

I’ve just bought a couple of electric heaters.

Have boiler, but tank also has electric immersion heater.

Heating is all gas, though.

So if the gas supply goes, should be ok. Or if it becomes extremely expensive in comparison to electricity.

GogLais wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 12:29 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:54 am

GogLais wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:52 am
Including food and at least some supermarkets?

I thought about it briefly but didn't want to dig in and get lost down a rabbit hole. I think the market is wide enough to support capitalism for food, there's enough competition to prevent gouging like we're seeing for energy/water/public transport.

Fair point.

There is also a massive range of food products as well as providers. You don't get taste the difference electricity and can't chose which reservoir your water comes from.

My tank also has an immersion heater but it hasn't been used in 20+ years so have no idea if it's safe to use as a standby...always kept that circuit isolator switched off . Should probably have it safety checked just in case I need it...

Were more likely to suffer power outages than gas. If the gas supply fails, they can't just "turn it back on" due to numerous safety issues. They'd literally have to isolate each property with gas, then manually check each appliance before turning it back on..
To give an example, some older boilers have pilot lights, so just turning the gas back on without someone there to check it lights is a massive risk..

TB63 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:36 pm Were more likely to suffer power outages than gas. If the gas supply fails, they can't just "turn it back on" due to numerous safety issues. They'd literally have to isolate each property with gas, then manually check each appliance before turning it back on..
To give an example, some older boilers have pilot lights, so just turning the gas back on without someone there to check it lights is a massive risk..

I'm not sure you know how pilot lights work. If there's no heat, they close off. They are an actual safety feature for exactly the situation you describe.

I cautiously confident there wont be power cuts..looks like their will be enough gas now albeit very expensive gas.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:29 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:04 am I was only half listening (as was only half awake), but earlier there was an item on the R4 Today programme that had an interview with a restauranteur in Calais and one in Dover. The French geezer is seeing a 4% increase in his energy bills and his English counterpart is contemplating his costs going from £15K to around £100K.

I've seen a figure flying around that we in the UK get <5% of our gas from Russia.

edit, Google tells me the UK gets 3% of its gas from Russia

Raggs is correct, gas is a global market and the world's second largest supplier being removed from the market ends up in everyone's prices going up. Doesn't matter we get most of our energy from the north sea as the producers don't give us better contracts because it's our sea they're drilling.

France are paying for the increase through the governments magic money tree. Macron is signalling in December they'll have to change that. This is a Europe wide issue that nobody is protected from and all economies will be very damaged.

Norway is now Europes biggest supplier of gas, they also have a lot of Hydro, yet their prices are rising pretty quickly.
Although those living in the North of Norway still have cheap electricity.
The Swedes are doing well out of this. They buy cheap electricity from N Norway and sell expensive electricity back to the South of Norway.
The Norwegians have limited grid connections between the N and S.


Think my bro in law in France still has a bit of heating on for the swimming pool plus the pool cleaner going 5 hours a day

Glaston wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:56 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:29 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:04 am I was only half listening (as was only half awake), but earlier there was an item on the R4 Today programme that had an interview with a restauranteur in Calais and one in Dover. The French geezer is seeing a 4% increase in his energy bills and his English counterpart is contemplating his costs going from £15K to around £100K.

I've seen a figure flying around that we in the UK get <5% of our gas from Russia.

edit, Google tells me the UK gets 3% of its gas from Russia

Raggs is correct, gas is a global market and the world's second largest supplier being removed from the market ends up in everyone's prices going up. Doesn't matter we get most of our energy from the north sea as the producers don't give us better contracts because it's our sea they're drilling.

France are paying for the increase through the governments magic money tree. Macron is signalling in December they'll have to change that. This is a Europe wide issue that nobody is protected from and all economies will be very damaged.

Norway is now Europes biggest supplier of gas, they also have a lot of Hydro, yet their prices are rising pretty quickly.
Although those living in the North of Norway still have cheap electricity.
The Swedes are doing well out of this. They buy cheap electricity from N Norway and sell expensive electricity back to the South of Norway.
The Norwegians have limited grid connections between the N and S.


Think my bro in law in France still has a bit of heating on for the swimming pool plus the pool cleaner going 5 hours a day

I was reading about this earlier, Norway's prices are rising despite a very large percentage (c90%) of their domestic consumption coming from hydro, they've had a very dry winter and summer resulting in reservoirs being very low.

I didn't have time to read why the following is the case, but the fact they export electricity via power lines is causing domestic prices to increase, there is also a lack of transmission capacity between northern and southern Norway, hence the situation you've described.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:23 pm

TB63 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:36 pm Were more likely to suffer power outages than gas. If the gas supply fails, they can't just "turn it back on" due to numerous safety issues. They'd literally have to isolate each property with gas, then manually check each appliance before turning it back on..
To give an example, some older boilers have pilot lights, so just turning the gas back on without someone there to check it lights is a massive risk..

I'm not sure you know how pilot lights work. If there's no heat, they close off. They are an actual safety feature for exactly the situation you describe.

Read older.
There are still old models with no flame detector in use. Been in the industry for 40 years, think I know how they work.....
There are also gas cookers with no flame detector in use, took one out 2 months ago from an old grannies house which was installed in the 50s..

tc27 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:46 pm I cautiously confident there wont be power cuts..looks like their will be enough gas now albeit very expensive gas.

Russia will have to sell at knock down prices to anyone it still can, say India, & the there'll be a another tanker on the other side of the quay, & the Gas will go from one, to the other, & on to Europe, & the Russians will take a humping !

TB63 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:28 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:23 pm

TB63 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:36 pm Were more likely to suffer power outages than gas. If the gas supply fails, they can't just "turn it back on" due to numerous safety issues. They'd literally have to isolate each property with gas, then manually check each appliance before turning it back on..
To give an example, some older boilers have pilot lights, so just turning the gas back on without someone there to check it lights is a massive risk..

I'm not sure you know how pilot lights work. If there's no heat, they close off. They are an actual safety feature for exactly the situation you describe.

Read older.
There are still old models with no flame detector in use. Been in the industry for 40 years, think I know how they work.....
There are also gas cookers with no flame detector in use, took one out 2 months ago from an old grannies house which was installed in the 50s..

Interesting. My warm air unit from the 60s had a pilot light with shutoff and that was obsolete many decades ago. The new one has 2 pilot lights which cost a fortune to run.

tc27 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:46 pm I cautiously confident there wont be power cuts..looks like their will be enough gas now albeit very expensive gas.

In Europe.... Britain however has no storage and is about to start a trade war with the EU.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 5:03 pm

TB63 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:28 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:23 pm
I'm not sure you know how pilot lights work. If there's no heat, they close off. They are an actual safety feature for exactly the situation you describe.

Read older.
There are still old models with no flame detector in use. Been in the industry for 40 years, think I know how they work.....
There are also gas cookers with no flame detector in use, took one out 2 months ago from an old grannies house which was installed in the 50s..

Interesting. My warm air unit from the 60s had a pilot light with shutoff and that was obsolete many decades ago. The new one has 2 pilot lights which cost a fortune to run.

.modern appliances now have electronic ignition, pilot lights are a thing if the past thank fuck.. That old cooker had a central pilot light in the middle of the burners where she used to keep her kettle, aluminium of course, on a gentle simmer all day...

Ive seen a fair bit of pushback against energy metres at home, what’s the issue here? We’ve changed supplier when we moved and they are going hard regarding us getting one installed which makes me suspicious

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:57 am Ive seen a fair bit of pushback against energy metres at home, what’s the issue here? We’ve changed supplier when we moved and they are going hard regarding us getting one installed which makes me suspicious

I'd always assumed it's less costs in getting the meter read - hassling you to get fat arse off sofa and send in the numbers, or sending someone round.

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:57 am Ive seen a fair bit of pushback against energy metres at home, what’s the issue here? We’ve changed supplier when we moved and they are going hard regarding us getting one installed which makes me suspicious

I think it's because energy suppliers want to have as accurate information on the grid this winter as possible and be able to bill people as easily and accurately as possible so they don't undercharge as prices go crazy. I'm the same - almost weekly letters about it.

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:57 am Ive seen a fair bit of pushback against energy metres at home, what’s the issue here? We’ve changed supplier when we moved and they are going hard regarding us getting one installed which makes me suspicious

Got a smart meter for the gas, easier than going outside to take readings but no benefits really as a consumer, no favourable tariffs for having one. Electrics with different supplier kept pushing hard and took forever to convince them I wasn't having (another?) one, they also won't offer a fixed rate unless you have one but that's no advantage at all now.

The companies have targets set for a minimum number of smart meter installations by a certain date - that's why they push so hard.

Unless you are really profligate with use of energy I doubt it really encourages and allows significant savings.

Wow

Thanks all. I thought I’d seen someone talking about data issues and how terrible it all was. Seems like a decent idea to be honest

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:57 am Ive seen a fair bit of pushback against energy metres at home, what’s the issue here? We’ve changed supplier when we moved and they are going hard regarding us getting one installed which makes me suspicious

I can’t remember the detail but there was a series of articles in the Sunday Times a few weeks ago relating all sorts of problems with them.

GogLais wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:20 am

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:57 am Ive seen a fair bit of pushback against energy metres at home, what’s the issue here? We’ve changed supplier when we moved and they are going hard regarding us getting one installed which makes me suspicious

I can’t remember the detail but there was a series of articles in the Sunday Times a few weeks ago relating all sorts of problems with them.

Actually, I think it was Rod Liddle in the ST that I am remembering ,well done

I hope they're making more of an effort to track down the Cannabis grow houses, as they always bypass the meter, & suck up huge amounts of power off the grid.

At least with crypto going tits-up, there's less incentive be mining, & bumping up your power bills !

Well, the temperature has dropped below 20 at night, so the poisonous fumes from cunts burning wood in their bastard log burners is now filling the air. Ban the fucking things, dangerous PM everywhere.

Exemption for cabins in the middle of the wilds. Zero excuse in an urban area. Don't care how chic the fucking interior designer said it looked. You love it so much, vent your fucking pollution into your own fucking house.

/rant/

Quins energy bill has gone up 250k. A lot of sports clubs aren't making it through winter. Also think of community rugby - I play touch under floodlights for £3.50 a session. It won't be £3.50 for long...