NPR

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:29 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:26 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:25 pm The NHS is going to get an extra £350M per week come January, it said so on the side of a bus.

It’s already getting more than that .....

Extra, every week, from the minute we stop funding the EU, I was mistaken, it's from March next year, that's when payments to the EU stop.

It’s getting more than 350 million a week already compared to spending in 2016.

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:00 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:29 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:26 pm



It’s already getting more than that .....

Extra, every week, from the minute we stop funding the EU, I was mistaken, it's from March next year, that's when payments to the EU stop.

It’s getting more than 350 million a week already compared to spending in 2016.

So another £350 million per week when we stop paying into the EU will surely help close those gaps where we lag behind other comparable countries

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:03 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:00 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:29 pm

Extra, every week, from the minute we stop funding the EU, I was mistaken, it's from March next year, that's when payments to the EU stop.

It’s getting more than 350 million a week already compared to spending in 2016.

So another £350 million per week when we stop paying into the EU will surely help close those gaps where we lag behind other comparable countries

Unlikely , doctors will strike again for wage increases and we will get more diversity trainers ...

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:09 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:03 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:00 pm



It’s getting more than 350 million a week already compared to spending in 2016.

So another £350 million per week when we stop paying into the EU will surely help close those gaps where we lag behind other comparable countries

Unlikely , doctors will strike again for wage increases and we will get more diversity trainers ...

Do we have any doctors on the board who can verify the likelihood of these claims?

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:12 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:09 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:03 pm


So another £350 million per week when we stop paying into the EU will surely help close those gaps where we lag behind other comparable countries

Unlikely , doctors will strike again for wage increases and we will get more diversity trainers ...

Do we have any doctors on the board who can verify the likelihood of these claims?

“Claims”

Or “piss taking facile comments”

Chose wisely kids.

The "well run NHS"..

A close friend of mine set up a company that looked at all the equipment they had on lease/hire, closely. On the basis that they would pay him 10% of the money they would save by letting him cancel redundant agreements.
In his first year, just looking at the JR in Oxford, he found machines that were still being rented, which had been superceded 5 times, and rental agreements for the following 4 pieces of kit, all being paid for still...

Wtf are the overpaid number crunchers being paid for?

He's now a millionaire, employs 25 staff, runs a company that leases machines to the NHS with a garuntee that when the kit is superceded, they don't pay for it anymore.

Why didn't the money grabbing twats see that one coming? And, the cunts have had no come back to answer for their fuck ups whatsoever. What he did find, the companies supplying NHS hiked prices and allegedly paid handsome backhanders to the ones that signed rental agreements, annually, knowing the kit was not just obsolete, but no longer on site...

#DailyCovidUpdate | 5th November 2020

Cases: +24,141
Deaths: +378 (up from 280 last week)

TB63 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:58 pm The "well run NHS"..

A close friend of mine set up a company that looked at all the equipment they had on lease/hire, closely. On the basis that they would pay him 10% of the money they would save by letting him cancel redundant agreements.
In his first year, just looking at the JR in Oxford, he found machines that were still being rented, which had been superceded 5 times, and rental agreements for the following 4 pieces of kit, all being paid for still...

Wtf are the overpaid number crunchers being paid for?

He's now a millionaire, employs 25 staff, runs a company that leases machines to the NHS with a garuntee that when the kit is superceded, they don't pay for it anymore.

Why didn't the money grabbing twats see that one coming? And, the cunts have had no come back to answer for their fuck ups whatsoever. What he did find, the companies supplying NHS hiked prices and allegedly paid handsome backhanders to the ones that signed rental agreements, annually, knowing the kit was not just obsolete, but no longer on site...

A lot of kit was acquired on 25 year finance through PPP - because that way it went "off-book" from a public finance perspective. PPP sorta-kinda made sense for the big bricks and mortar stuff - but there's loads of stuff with short life cycle (sub 10 years) that was acquired on 25 year PPP contracts

TB63 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:58 pm The "well run NHS"..

A close friend of mine set up a company that looked at all the equipment they had on lease/hire, closely. On the basis that they would pay him 10% of the money they would save by letting him cancel redundant agreements.
In his first year, just looking at the JR in Oxford, he found machines that were still being rented, which had been superceded 5 times, and rental agreements for the following 4 pieces of kit, all being paid for still...

Wtf are the overpaid number crunchers being paid for?

He's now a millionaire, employs 25 staff, runs a company that leases machines to the NHS with a garuntee that when the kit is superceded, they don't pay for it anymore.

Why didn't the money grabbing twats see that one coming? And, the cunts have had no come back to answer for their fuck ups whatsoever. What he did find, the companies supplying NHS hiked prices and allegedly paid handsome backhanders to the ones that signed rental agreements, annually, knowing the kit was not just obsolete, but no longer on site...

Woe there, if I can take your first premise 'The "well run NHS"..'

No one has said that. I'm not going to put words into anyone else's mouth so excuse me if this sounds "all about me", this is all just my opinion. The NHS is not well run, it is up against it at every turn, and it's mainly down to funding, or more accurately mis-management and underfunding.

As a fundamental, the NHS is where the money trail ends, there is no recycling, there should not be a profit to be made, money made elsewhere should be invested in to the service so that people are cared for, be it broken leg or broken mind.
The "profit" is making people well again, that's it, nothing else, that is what we buy with the money.

The benefit to society as a whole is that no one need worry about health care bills, no one needs to skip surgery or treatment because they don't bring in enough money to pay for it, or take a loan or miss surgery because of a couple of missed payments of an insurance policy due to a financial emergency elsewhere. No one has to remortgage their home to pay for treatment.

The knock on is that people go to school, go to further training, go to work all in the knowledge that they will be healed if and when they need it. The State pays for this, it pays for education of workers in the public and private sector, it pays for transport infrastructure, it pays for security via police force and military etc The state ensures private enterprise is protected via these agencies and with legislation regarding copyright, international trade agreements etc It makes sure the food we eat is safe, it makes sure we have recourse when we are stolen form or duped, it makes sure we have representation via the ballot box, though that is a work in progress

In short, the private sector is wholly underwritten by the taxpayer, the public sector.

The idiocy you point out in your post is not down to failures of clinicians or the ideology of the free-at-point-of-contact health care, that is down to a management that has probably been stretched to way beyond breaking point for many many years.


I've had a beer.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:35 pm

TB63 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:58 pm The "well run NHS"..

A close friend of mine set up a company that looked at all the equipment they had on lease/hire, closely. On the basis that they would pay him 10% of the money they would save by letting him cancel redundant agreements.
In his first year, just looking at the JR in Oxford, he found machines that were still being rented, which had been superceded 5 times, and rental agreements for the following 4 pieces of kit, all being paid for still...

Wtf are the overpaid number crunchers being paid for?

He's now a millionaire, employs 25 staff, runs a company that leases machines to the NHS with a garuntee that when the kit is superceded, they don't pay for it anymore.

Why didn't the money grabbing twats see that one coming? And, the cunts have had no come back to answer for their fuck ups whatsoever. What he did find, the companies supplying NHS hiked prices and allegedly paid handsome backhanders to the ones that signed rental agreements, annually, knowing the kit was not just obsolete, but no longer on site...

Woe there, if I can take your first premise 'The "well run NHS"..'

No one has said that. I'm not going to put words into anyone else's mouth so excuse me if this sounds "all about me", this is all just my opinion. The NHS is not well run, it is up against it at every turn, and it's mainly down to funding, or more accurately mis-management and underfunding.

As a fundamental, the NHS is where the money trail ends, there is no recycling, there should not be a profit to be made, money made elsewhere should be invested in to the service so that people are cared for, be it broken leg or broken mind.
The "profit" is making people well again, that's it, nothing else, that is what we buy with the money.

The benefit to society as a whole is that no one need worry about health care bills, no one needs to skip surgery or treatment because they don't bring in enough money to pay for it, or take a loan or miss surgery because of a couple of missed payments of an insurance policy due to a financial emergency elsewhere. No one has to remortgage their home to pay for treatment.

The knock on is that people go to school, go to further training, go to work all in the knowledge that they will be healed if and when they need it. The State pays for this, it pays for education of workers in the public and private sector, it pays for transport infrastructure, it pays for security via police force and military etc The state ensures private enterprise is protected via these agencies and with legislation regarding copyright, international trade agreements etc It makes sure the food we eat is safe, it makes sure we have recourse when we are stolen form or duped, it makes sure we have representation via the ballot box, though that is a work in progress

In short, the private sector is wholly underwritten by the taxpayer, the public sector.

The idiocy you point out in your post is not down to failures of clinicians or the ideology of the free-at-point-of-contact health care, that is down to a management that has probably been stretched to way beyond breaking point for many many years.


I've had a beer.

I agree with most of that but take issue with the bolded part. I have to stress I'm only talking about my trust but the management is not stretched to breaking point, far from it. There are more managers than needed, to the point jobs are made up for mates, and the actual job we're meant to be here for is neglected in favour of what I'd describe as support services that are seen as fashionable to the outright detriment of the majority of the workforce.

Jock42 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:04 pm

I agree with most of that but take issue with the bolded part. I have to stress I'm only talking about my trust but the management is not stretched to breaking point, far from it. There are more managers than needed, to the point jobs are made up for mates, and the actual job we're meant to be here for is neglected in favour of what I'd describe as support services that are seen as fashionable to the outright detriment of the majority of the workforce.

but I was on a roll!


More seriously, I'll defer to your first hand account on management, someone close to me has first hand knowledge "further up the chain" in London and it was awful, the shouting started at ministerial (in fact above) level and worked its way down.

The NHS is pretty well run. Nobody runs an organisation that large without carrying a hefty amount of waste, there are precisely no examples of that ever not being the case

Management has been stretched.

Watch it Buster.

Globus wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:59 am

Management has been stretched.

Watch it Buster.

Well that’s the priority sorted

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:57 pm

Jock42 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:04 pm

I agree with most of that but take issue with the bolded part. I have to stress I'm only talking about my trust but the management is not stretched to breaking point, far from it. There are more managers than needed, to the point jobs are made up for mates, and the actual job we're meant to be here for is neglected in favour of what I'd describe as support services that are seen as fashionable to the outright detriment of the majority of the workforce.

but I was on a roll!


More seriously, I'll defer to your first hand account on management, someone close to me has first hand knowledge "further up the chain" in London and it was awful, the shouting started at ministerial (in fact above) level and worked its way down.

This is the usual 'top heavy highly paid management' uninformed nonsense we get every time the NHS comes up. I did a piece of work some time ago benchmarking the HR functions within the NHS with a range of other public and private sector organisations and both the numbers and average salaries were well lower in the NHS than in the vast majority of other organisations easily in the bottom 25% if not the bottom 10%. Similar exercises found the same for finance, procurement, IT, etc. The data I am afraid doesn't support the view that it is management top heavy. Also the management 'fat cat' salaries abound, again without any supporting evidence. Don't know about England but in Scotland the top salary for a CEO is c£185 (range is £137 to £185). but only about 2 folk qualify for that salary - Glasgow and Lothian. Medical and Public Health Directors may earn more than that but they are clinicians. The income (you can add a multiplier to get a comparable private sector turnover) to Lothian HB for example is £1.6b and it employees c28,000 staff. I know there are many in Edinburgh who work in finance, consultancy, law etc who get more than that as an annual bonus! My mate's company pays their London sales staff more than that!

dpedin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:20 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:57 pm

Jock42 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:04 pm

I agree with most of that but take issue with the bolded part. I have to stress I'm only talking about my trust but the management is not stretched to breaking point, far from it. There are more managers than needed, to the point jobs are made up for mates, and the actual job we're meant to be here for is neglected in favour of what I'd describe as support services that are seen as fashionable to the outright detriment of the majority of the workforce.

but I was on a roll!


More seriously, I'll defer to your first hand account on management, someone close to me has first hand knowledge "further up the chain" in London and it was awful, the shouting started at ministerial (in fact above) level and worked its way down.

This is the usual 'top heavy highly paid management' uninformed nonsense we get every time the NHS comes up. I did a piece of work some time ago benchmarking the HR functions within the NHS with a range of other public and private sector organisations and both the numbers and average salaries were well lower in the NHS than in the vast majority of other organisations easily in the bottom 25% if not the bottom 10%. Similar exercises found the same for finance, procurement, IT, etc. The data I am afraid doesn't support the view that it is management top heavy. Also the management 'fat cat' salaries abound, again without any supporting evidence. Don't know about England but in Scotland the top salary for a CEO is c£185 (range is £137 to £185). but only about 2 folk qualify for that salary - Glasgow and Lothian. Medical and Public Health Directors may earn more than that but they are clinicians. The income (you can add a multiplier to get a comparable private sector turnover) to Lothian HB for example is £1.6b and it employees c28,000 staff. I know there are many in Edinburgh who work in finance, consultancy, law etc who get more than that as an annual bonus! My mate's company pays their London sales staff more than that!

Is that meant to be directed at me?

My mate's company pays their London sales staff more than that!

Seriously what’s the relevance.......


The taxation on the staff above is paying the others salaries?

Jock42 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:33 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:20 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:57 pm

but I was on a roll!


More seriously, I'll defer to your first hand account on management, someone close to me has first hand knowledge "further up the chain" in London and it was awful, the shouting started at ministerial (in fact above) level and worked its way down.

This is the usual 'top heavy highly paid management' uninformed nonsense we get every time the NHS comes up. I did a piece of work some time ago benchmarking the HR functions within the NHS with a range of other public and private sector organisations and both the numbers and average salaries were well lower in the NHS than in the vast majority of other organisations easily in the bottom 25% if not the bottom 10%. Similar exercises found the same for finance, procurement, IT, etc. The data I am afraid doesn't support the view that it is management top heavy. Also the management 'fat cat' salaries abound, again without any supporting evidence. Don't know about England but in Scotland the top salary for a CEO is c£185 (range is £137 to £185). but only about 2 folk qualify for that salary - Glasgow and Lothian. Medical and Public Health Directors may earn more than that but they are clinicians. The income (you can add a multiplier to get a comparable private sector turnover) to Lothian HB for example is £1.6b and it employees c28,000 staff. I know there are many in Edinburgh who work in finance, consultancy, law etc who get more than that as an annual bonus! My mate's company pays their London sales staff more than that!

Is that meant to be directed at me?

No just a general comment.

Don't disagree about the 'shouting starting at ministerial level' though in both England and Scotland!

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:05 pm #DailyCovidUpdate | 5th November 2020

Cases: +24,141
Deaths: +378 (up from 280 last week)

As this marker in the ground. Although 7 day average probably more useful. As looking at daily it’s a bit spiky, and the 2 for the price of one Twosdays.

I guess we can attribute any dropping of deaths for the next 3 weeks to the previous set of rules working, which takes us to around 27th.

If they weren’t working we will see a higher number of deaths 27th Nov compared with today’s 378.

Be interesting to see.

dpedin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:20 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:57 pm

Jock42 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:04 pm

I agree with most of that but take issue with the bolded part. I have to stress I'm only talking about my trust but the management is not stretched to breaking point, far from it. There are more managers than needed, to the point jobs are made up for mates, and the actual job we're meant to be here for is neglected in favour of what I'd describe as support services that are seen as fashionable to the outright detriment of the majority of the workforce.

but I was on a roll!


More seriously, I'll defer to your first hand account on management, someone close to me has first hand knowledge "further up the chain" in London and it was awful, the shouting started at ministerial (in fact above) level and worked its way down.

This is the usual 'top heavy highly paid management' uninformed nonsense we get every time the NHS comes up. I did a piece of work some time ago benchmarking the HR functions within the NHS with a range of other public and private sector organisations and both the numbers and average salaries were well lower in the NHS than in the vast majority of other organisations easily in the bottom 25% if not the bottom 10%. Similar exercises found the same for finance, procurement, IT, etc. The data I am afraid doesn't support the view that it is management top heavy. Also the management 'fat cat' salaries abound, again without any supporting evidence. Don't know about England but in Scotland the top salary for a CEO is c£185 (range is £137 to £185). but only about 2 folk qualify for that salary - Glasgow and Lothian. Medical and Public Health Directors may earn more than that but they are clinicians. The income (you can add a multiplier to get a comparable private sector turnover) to Lothian HB for example is £1.6b and it employees c28,000 staff. I know there are many in Edinburgh who work in finance, consultancy, law etc who get more than that as an annual bonus! My mate's company pays their London sales staff more than that!

Good fact-based post dpedin

Although for a short term look, cases down in both Liverpool and Manchester. Both now below 400 per 100k suggest that very high level lockdown was having an effect. (Despite many flouting the rules)

dpedin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:58 am

Jock42 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:33 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:20 am

This is the usual 'top heavy highly paid management' uninformed nonsense we get every time the NHS comes up. I did a piece of work some time ago benchmarking the HR functions within the NHS with a range of other public and private sector organisations and both the numbers and average salaries were well lower in the NHS than in the vast majority of other organisations easily in the bottom 25% if not the bottom 10%. Similar exercises found the same for finance, procurement, IT, etc. The data I am afraid doesn't support the view that it is management top heavy. Also the management 'fat cat' salaries abound, again without any supporting evidence. Don't know about England but in Scotland the top salary for a CEO is c£185 (range is £137 to £185). but only about 2 folk qualify for that salary - Glasgow and Lothian. Medical and Public Health Directors may earn more than that but they are clinicians. The income (you can add a multiplier to get a comparable private sector turnover) to Lothian HB for example is £1.6b and it employees c28,000 staff. I know there are many in Edinburgh who work in finance, consultancy, law etc who get more than that as an annual bonus! My mate's company pays their London sales staff more than that!

Is that meant to be directed at me?

No just a general comment.

Don't disagree about the 'shouting starting at ministerial level' though in both England and Scotland!

Confused about what the 'uninformed nonsense' refers to.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:03 am Good fact-based post dpedin

Which means that it will be rabidly disputed by the bimbot.

dpedin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:20 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:57 pm

Jock42 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:04 pm

I agree with most of that but take issue with the bolded part. I have to stress I'm only talking about my trust but the management is not stretched to breaking point, far from it. There are more managers than needed, to the point jobs are made up for mates, and the actual job we're meant to be here for is neglected in favour of what I'd describe as support services that are seen as fashionable to the outright detriment of the majority of the workforce.

but I was on a roll!


More seriously, I'll defer to your first hand account on management, someone close to me has first hand knowledge "further up the chain" in London and it was awful, the shouting started at ministerial (in fact above) level and worked its way down.

This is the usual 'top heavy highly paid management' uninformed nonsense we get every time the NHS comes up. I did a piece of work some time ago benchmarking the HR functions within the NHS with a range of other public and private sector organisations and both the numbers and average salaries were well lower in the NHS than in the vast majority of other organisations easily in the bottom 25% if not the bottom 10%. Similar exercises found the same for finance, procurement, IT, etc. The data I am afraid doesn't support the view that it is management top heavy. Also the management 'fat cat' salaries abound, again without any supporting evidence. Don't know about England but in Scotland the top salary for a CEO is c£185 (range is £137 to £185). but only about 2 folk qualify for that salary - Glasgow and Lothian. Medical and Public Health Directors may earn more than that but they are clinicians. The income (you can add a multiplier to get a comparable private sector turnover) to Lothian HB for example is £1.6b and it employees c28,000 staff. I know there are many in Edinburgh who work in finance, consultancy, law etc who get more than that as an annual bonus! My mate's company pays their London sales staff more than that!

That all sounds as expected really. I’d thought the criticism was aimed at the sheer volume of staff in business administration roles, rather than their individual salary. Ie the total cost.

Ymx wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:07 am Although for a short term look, cases down in both Liverpool and Manchester. Both now below 400 per 100k suggest that very high level lockdown was having an effect. (Despite many flouting the rules)

It suggests it was falling before the restrictions were tightened.

Ymx wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:25 am That all sounds as expected really. I’d thought the criticism was aimed at the sheer volume of staff in business administration roles, rather than their individual salary. Ie the total cost.

I'm perhaps a bit too lazy to go far enough back in the thread to see where the wage issue arose. One of my arguments is that we have far too many managers (particularly at lower levels) that don't do enough clinical hours leaving areas short of cover.

Jock42 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:15 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:25 am That all sounds as expected really. I’d thought the criticism was aimed at the sheer volume of staff in business administration roles, rather than their individual salary. Ie the total cost.

I'm perhaps a bit too lazy to go far enough back in the thread to see where the wage issue arose. One of my arguments is that we have far too many managers (particularly at lower levels) that don't do enough clinical hours leaving areas short of cover.

Yes. And that wasn’t addressed by looking at market rates on positions.

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:44 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:07 am Although for a short term look, cases down in both Liverpool and Manchester. Both now below 400 per 100k suggest that very high level lockdown was having an effect. (Despite many flouting the rules)

It suggests it was falling before the restrictions were tightened.

They were in high/very high for a couple of weeks before what we have now. As far as I understood they’ve only just started coming down. Ie the regional approach was working as applied.

Or are you saying the high level was sufficient to bring it down even?

Jock42 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:15 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:25 am That all sounds as expected really. I’d thought the criticism was aimed at the sheer volume of staff in business administration roles, rather than their individual salary. Ie the total cost.

I'm perhaps a bit too lazy to go far enough back in the thread to see where the wage issue arose. One of my arguments is that we have far too many managers (particularly at lower levels) that don't do enough clinical hours leaving areas short of cover.

That may be correct but I suspect is very much a local issue and will vary by service area, site, ward, etc. However when I have looked in detail at these sort of issues it is often because the budgets for the management role have been cut and the manager is expected to do the management role as well as being counted in the rota to make the clinical numbers look better i.e. hit the required nurse to bed ratio, and as a result can't do both the management/admin role and the clinical role. There are however individuals who, as in any sector, dodge the hard work and hide in their office - the NHS is no different.

Ymx wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:25 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:20 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:57 pm

but I was on a roll!


More seriously, I'll defer to your first hand account on management, someone close to me has first hand knowledge "further up the chain" in London and it was awful, the shouting started at ministerial (in fact above) level and worked its way down.

This is the usual 'top heavy highly paid management' uninformed nonsense we get every time the NHS comes up. I did a piece of work some time ago benchmarking the HR functions within the NHS with a range of other public and private sector organisations and both the numbers and average salaries were well lower in the NHS than in the vast majority of other organisations easily in the bottom 25% if not the bottom 10%. Similar exercises found the same for finance, procurement, IT, etc. The data I am afraid doesn't support the view that it is management top heavy. Also the management 'fat cat' salaries abound, again without any supporting evidence. Don't know about England but in Scotland the top salary for a CEO is c£185 (range is £137 to £185). but only about 2 folk qualify for that salary - Glasgow and Lothian. Medical and Public Health Directors may earn more than that but they are clinicians. The income (you can add a multiplier to get a comparable private sector turnover) to Lothian HB for example is £1.6b and it employees c28,000 staff. I know there are many in Edinburgh who work in finance, consultancy, law etc who get more than that as an annual bonus! My mate's company pays their London sales staff more than that!

That all sounds as expected really. I’d thought the criticism was aimed at the sheer volume of staff in business administration roles, rather than their individual salary. Ie the total cost.

Again that can be looked at - the data is published by the NHS Scotland for example. It is however difficult to split it down into what are purely back office staff and which are involved in direct clinical care. At a high level over 83% of staff are direct clinical care - doctors, nurses, physios, care assistants, labs, etc. However when you drill down into the remaining 17% many of these are admin or other staff involved in delivering direct clinical care i.e. receptionists, medical secretaries, patient records staff, etc.

What % of this 17% are in managerial grades - in NHS terms who earn over £45k? About 7.5%, c2000 staff. The rest are non-managerial. NHS Scotland employs over 145,00 staff so this is about 0.7%. You can of course extend your definition of a manager to include those earning below £45k say to £39k by looking at lower banding and this possibly extends this to c1.5%. However many of these folk don't fit into a manager role definition but will have technical expertise in a specific area and are paid those salaries because of market salary levels i.e. IT, finance, HR, etc. I don't know what folk think - is c1% too high? Finally remember many in these managerial grades will be clinical staff who are now undertaking a managerial role, including up to CEO levels.

PS These figures are very rough so apologies for any mistakes - trying to eat my lunch at same time!

It's amazing how actually looking at real numbers can counter bullshit isn't it?

Fair enough.

But I’ve also heard these NHS lot are always on some break or another.

First case round here for months happens to be the Landlord of my local. Luckily we'd not been in for a while before he became symptomatic, but there's a load of pub regulars now in full on isolation for a couple of weeks

Biffer wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:42 pm It's amazing how actually looking at real numbers can counter bullshit isn't it?

What bullshit.

The argument is there’s too many of them not how they’re paid.

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:04 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:42 pm It's amazing how actually looking at real numbers can counter bullshit isn't it?

What bullshit.

The argument is there’s too many of them not how they’re paid.

I rest my case!

dpedin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:18 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:04 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:42 pm It's amazing how actually looking at real numbers can counter bullshit isn't it?

What bullshit.

The argument is there’s too many of them not how they’re paid.

I rest my case!

I would, looks like you’re an insider you’ll never critique it with any sense. At least now we know some salesmen earn more than a regional health CEO.

Globus wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:59 am

Management has been stretched.

Watch it Buster.

Amazing! My favourite thing you have ever posted!

Good job, sir!

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:27 pm

dpedin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:18 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:04 pm



What bullshit.

The argument is there’s too many of them not how they’re paid.

I rest my case!

I would, looks like you’re an insider you’ll never critique it with any sense. At least now we know some salesmen earn more than a regional health CEO.

It looks like you didn't actually read his posts.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:47 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:27 pm

dpedin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:18 pm

I rest my case!

I would, looks like you’re an insider you’ll never critique it with any sense. At least now we know some salesmen earn more than a regional health CEO.

It looks like you didn't actually read his posts.