NPR

Uncle fester wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:12 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:04 pm
Sexton's fragility will have counted against him more than his form, I expect.

This. He was pretty good in some games, particularly the England game but he's held together by duct tape these days.

Seriously he has had as many concussions as selections time to wrap him in coton wool and save him for his family.

salanya wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:43 pm From what I've seen of Simmons, it's a bit of a toss up between him and Stander. Good, but not outstanding.
With Conan there it's not a great shock that Simmons was selected.

Eh... Simmonds has been picked precisely because his performances for Exeter against all-comers have been outstanding. He has 62 tries in 90 appearances. As a number 8. It's bonkers.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:47 pm

salanya wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:43 pm From what I've seen of Simmons, it's a bit of a toss up between him and Stander. Good, but not outstanding.
With Conan there it's not a great shock that Simmons was selected.

Eh... Simmonds has been picked precisely because his performances for Exeter against all-comers have been outstanding. He has 62 tries in 90 appearances. As a number 8. It's bonkers.

Note: 'from what I've seen' - which is 2 matches in the last few months. In which he's been good, but I wasn't blown away.
Happy to admit it's not the best informed opinion, but it's an honest opinion on the information I have.

Yr Alban wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:19 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:11 pm

ASMO wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:09 pm Of the England picks, for the test team i only see Maro, LCD, Curry and Watson as realistic contenders as starters, the rest are dirt trackers/bin juice

Somewhat scarily, Daly is likely to be 2nd choice for 13 and if Henshaw breaks...

(Harris is a great pick but I don't expect Gatland to consider him for the Test team)

Harris has defied a lot of expectations (including mine) just to get into the squad. Not sure I’d rule anything out just yet.

He's a reliable defender and a fairly big chap to boot, which was enough for Gatland to pick Jamies Roberts and Scott Williams when their attacking games evaporated, Reckon Harris could continue defying expectations all the way to a Test jersey.

I would be interested to see who the standby choices are

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:02 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:19 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:11 pm

Somewhat scarily, Daly is likely to be 2nd choice for 13 and if Henshaw breaks...

(Harris is a great pick but I don't expect Gatland to consider him for the Test team)

Harris has defied a lot of expectations (including mine) just to get into the squad. Not sure I’d rule anything out just yet.

He's a reliable defender and a fairly big chap to boot, which was enough for Gatland to pick Jamies Roberts and Scott Williams when their attacking games evaporated, Reckon Harris could continue defying expectations all the way to a Test jersey.

I could see it. Would be quite something for the guy if he does - he’s been keeping Huw Jones and Rory Hutchinson out of the Scotland side for a couple of years now, which wasn’t a popular decision from Toony. It’s being vindicated now.

ASMO wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:04 pm I would be interested to see who the standby choices are

Particularly at lock. Who is first alternate - Gray or Ryan? Both could reasonably be disappointed not to make the squad.

My point isn't that Harris isn't worthy of a test spot, just that Gatland will have picked his test squad already and Daly is likely to be part of it for his flexibility, which means he's also more likely to get the nod if Henshaw falls over.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:07 pm My point isn't that Harris isn't worthy of a test spot, just that Gatland will have picked his test squad already and Daly is likely to be part of it for his flexibility, which means he's also more likely to get the nod if Henshaw falls over.

Yeah, but let’s pretend that that isn’t true.

He has picked a squad to play a limited gameplan, one thing it won't be is expansive. Bosh it up, kick and let the pace chase.

As usual I haven't read the thread yett but having read the squad my one WTF was Elliot Daly??

He was utterly shite in the 6N and is frankly a waste of a good player opportunity...

Hill is a bit of a lucky boy I think Gray is better...

Openside wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:45 pm As usual I haven't read the thread yett but having read the squad my one WTF was Elliot Daly??

He was utterly shite in the 6N and is frankly a waste of a good player opportunity...

Hill is a bit of a lucky boy I think Gray is better...

Versatility, covers 13, 14 and 15 plus 60 meter penalty kicks at high altitude
....................and he's got the photos of Gatland from the last tour!

SaintK wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:49 pm

Openside wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:45 pm As usual I haven't read the thread yett but having read the squad my one WTF was Elliot Daly??

He was utterly shite in the 6N and is frankly a waste of a good player opportunity...

Hill is a bit of a lucky boy I think Gray is better...

Versatility, covers 13, 14 and 15 plus 60 meter penalty kicks at high altitude
....................and he's got the photos of Gatland from the last tour!

Frankly is the most relevant bit Hoggy can bang em over from long range too and he has a real chance of actually deserving a test spot

Anyone tried picking a test side from that squad? It's not easy.

1. Wyn Jones
2. Owens
3. Furlong
4. A-W Jones (c)
5. Itoje
6. Beirne
7. Curry
8.Faletau

9. Murray
10. Biggar
11. Watson
12. Henshaw
13. Harris
14. Williams
15. Hogg

16. George
17. Sutherland
18. Porter
19. Henderson
20. Lawes
21. Tipuric
22. Davies
23. Rees-Zammit


Just two backs subs, Tipuric could play in the backs at a pinch if needed. Hogg to fly-half if Biggar gets crocked? Not many ball carriers in the pack either.

Not an easy side to put together. Lots of players that would be right in the middle of the bell curve but nothing really at the extremes.

Not really understanding the concept of social distancing there eh

Best comment I've read from a mate on WhatsApp regards Bundee Aki - Poundshop Tuilagi.

I reckon Simmonds would be a better 12 than Aki.

salanya wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:24 pm No big Swarm issues really.

Shame that Sexton misses out, but he has been very fragile - not very useful for a tour.
Ryan has been lacking in gametime, and since his return in consistency/impact. Shame, but that's the way (though apparently not for all selections, but that's a different conversation)
The likes of Stander and VdF maybe a bit unlucky, but it's Gatland - they'll be too small for him.

Ringrose has been injured a bit and not in great form yet, so his omission was already being debated. But that Aki is selected ahead of him says everything about Gatland.

VDF isn't unlucky, I'd have been very surprised if he was one of the 50+ to receive letters. Good player and all but when you can pick the likes of Curry at 7 his lack of power will always been an issue by contrast, especially against SA.

Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:01 pm Best comment I've read from a mate on WhatsApp regards Bundee Aki - Poundshop Tuilagi.

I reckon Simmonds would be a better 12 than Aki.

Exact phrase my brother and I used to describe him.

Nothing scary in that squad. Should be a comfortable series win for the bokke.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:47 pm

salanya wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:43 pm From what I've seen of Simmons, it's a bit of a toss up between him and Stander. Good, but not outstanding.
With Conan there it's not a great shock that Simmons was selected.

Eh... Simmonds has been picked precisely because his performances for Exeter against all-comers have been outstanding. He has 62 tries in 90 appearances. As a number 8. It's bonkers.

Didn't Thomas Waldrom have a similar record for Exe?

I like neeps wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:08 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:47 pm

salanya wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:43 pm From what I've seen of Simmons, it's a bit of a toss up between him and Stander. Good, but not outstanding.
With Conan there it's not a great shock that Simmons was selected.

Eh... Simmonds has been picked precisely because his performances for Exeter against all-comers have been outstanding. He has 62 tries in 90 appearances. As a number 8. It's bonkers.

Didn't Thomas Waldrom have a similar record for Exe?

Very good record - 53 in 101 - but not as good, and more of them just from close range. Best he did was 16 in one season - Simmonds has 14 in this season's Premiership already! And the Tank never got European Player of the Year, either :)

Can anyone tell me who can carry the ball up in traffic - forwards and backs - on slow ball when required?

Don't say Aki.

earl the beaver wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:02 pm

salanya wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:24 pm No big Swarm issues really.

Shame that Sexton misses out, but he has been very fragile - not very useful for a tour.
Ryan has been lacking in gametime, and since his return in consistency/impact. Shame, but that's the way (though apparently not for all selections, but that's a different conversation)
The likes of Stander and VdF maybe a bit unlucky, but it's Gatland - they'll be too small for him.

Ringrose has been injured a bit and not in great form yet, so his omission was already being debated. But that Aki is selected ahead of him says everything about Gatland.

VDF isn't unlucky, I'd have been very surprised if he was one of the 50+ to receive letters. Good player and all but when you can pick the likes of Curry at 7 his lack of power will always been an issue by contrast, especially against SA.

After the Exeter match there were a lot of pundits and players putting him in contention, more so than Stander. Seeing as most other selections are about power, there'd be nothing wrong with selecting another flanker with pace, stamina and good hands.
But this is Gatland, so it wasn't going to happen.
Anyway, I mean unlucky in the sense that 7 is one of the most competitive positions, so even very good players are missing out - wasn't saying he should be selected ahead of Curry, and Gatland was always going to select Tipuric, who is very good in fairness.

Similar story on Keenan - very good form, and unlucky to miss out, but was always going to be tough against Hogg and Williams (I'm ignoring Daly!!)

JM2K6 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:11 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:08 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:47 pm

Eh... Simmonds has been picked precisely because his performances for Exeter against all-comers have been outstanding. He has 62 tries in 90 appearances. As a number 8. It's bonkers.

Didn't Thomas Waldrom have a similar record for Exe?

Very good record - 53 in 101 - but not as good, and more of them just from close range. Best he did was 16 in one season - Simmonds has 14 in this season's Premiership already! And the Tank never got European Player of the Year, either :)

I think you'll find that the Tullow Tank did get European Player of the year.....

JM2K6 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:11 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:08 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:47 pm

Eh... Simmonds has been picked precisely because his performances for Exeter against all-comers have been outstanding. He has 62 tries in 90 appearances. As a number 8. It's bonkers.

Didn't Thomas Waldrom have a similar record for Exe?

Very good record - 53 in 101 - but not as good, and more of them just from close range. Best he did was 16 in one season - Simmonds has 14 in this season's Premiership already! And the Tank never got European Player of the Year, either :)

Fair enough! I just remember always hearing about Thomas Waldrom as AP top try scorer and all that. Always quite liked him and the cake club.

Always a little disheartening to find out who has you on ignore :(

Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:01 pm Best comment I've read from a mate on WhatsApp regards Bundee Aki - Poundshop Tuilagi.

I reckon Simmonds would be a better 12 than Aki.

And much quicker too

Wouldn't have Courtney-Lawes, Daly or Hill anywhere near my squad, other than that a reasonable selection. Daly was just awful in the 6Ns and has a tendency to get caught in the highlights in big games, he was also poor under the high ball in the games I watched him in.There were a number of other options that could fill that slot. Hill looks like a poor mans Itoji in that he is a penalty machine but less effective. I would have had either Gray or Ryan in that spot.Ccourtney Lawes is neither one thing nor another - a lightweight 2nd row or a 6 who is too slow and ponderous. I would have had Stander or Ritchie instead.

Still feel Mako Vunipola isn't a strong enough scrummager for the SA tour and will struggle in the set piece and regardless of what he does in the loose we can't afford to be giving away scrum penalties out there.

If Lawes is fit, he's a cracking player to have on a tour like this and gives you a strong lineout option at 6. Would be behind Beirne in that Hybrid role at the moment though.

Hill is lucky. As is Daly, but I can see the attraction for Gatland for him with only 16 backs.

Agree on Mako scrummaging against Saffa packs. Especially without any monster locks adding grunt behind

That's a very well rounded squad and only weakness possibly at scrumhalf. If Pollard stays fit and plays all 3 tests then I think it's 2-1 Boks. If not then it's 2-1 Lions. Unless of course Finn plays all 3 at 10 in which case Boks win all 3.

FalseBayFC wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:41 pm That's a very well rounded squad and only weakness possibly at scrumhalf. If Pollard stays fit and plays all 3 tests then I think it's 2-1 Boks. If not then it's 2-1 Lions. Unless of course Finn plays all 3 at 10 in which case Boks win all 3.

Both half backs and centre are weaknesses imo

ASMO wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:15 pm He has picked a squad to play a limited gameplan, one thing it won't be is expansive. Bosh it up, kick and let the pace chase.

That doesn’t sound like Warren.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:48 pm Always a little disheartening to find out who has you on ignore :(

Yr Alban wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:52 am

Jock42 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:46 am Harris, Hogg, Price, Russell, VDM, Fagerson, Sutherland, Watson

Happy with that.

Bloody delighted here. I was trying to keep my expectations down to 5 or 6. Been hurt too many times.

Actually feels like fair representation for the first time in forever. The only one who surprises me is Price, though if you’d mentioned Harris 6 months ago I’d have laughed at you. Ritchie’s time will come, he’s still young. Jonny Gray is the one I really feel bad for.

Yeah, delighted, but like you I cannot see Hill over Gray, that is nonsense.

Blackmac wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:30 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:52 am

Jock42 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:46 am Harris, Hogg, Price, Russell, VDM, Fagerson, Sutherland, Watson

Happy with that.

Bloody delighted here. I was trying to keep my expectations down to 5 or 6. Been hurt too many times.

Actually feels like fair representation for the first time in forever. The only one who surprises me is Price, though if you’d mentioned Harris 6 months ago I’d have laughed at you. Ritchie’s time will come, he’s still young. Jonny Gray is the one I really feel bad for.

Yeah, delighted, but like you I cannot see Hill over Gray, that is nonsense.

I think you can say the same about Fagerson over Sinckler to be fair
And Aki over quite a few others!

You can call me a bit of woman but I quite like that there's a relatively even balance in numbers across the 4 nations.

SaintK wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:35 pm

Blackmac wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:30 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:52 am

Bloody delighted here. I was trying to keep my expectations down to 5 or 6. Been hurt too many times.

Actually feels like fair representation for the first time in forever. The only one who surprises me is Price, though if you’d mentioned Harris 6 months ago I’d have laughed at you. Ritchie’s time will come, he’s still young. Jonny Gray is the one I really feel bad for.

Yeah, delighted, but like you I cannot see Hill over Gray, that is nonsense.

I think you can say the same about Fagerson over Sinckler to be fair
And Aki over quite a few others!

Yeah but we have been losing those 50/50 decisions for years so we are due a few.

SaintK wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:35 pm

Blackmac wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:30 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:52 am

Bloody delighted here. I was trying to keep my expectations down to 5 or 6. Been hurt too many times.

Actually feels like fair representation for the first time in forever. The only one who surprises me is Price, though if you’d mentioned Harris 6 months ago I’d have laughed at you. Ritchie’s time will come, he’s still young. Jonny Gray is the one I really feel bad for.

Yeah, delighted, but like you I cannot see Hill over Gray, that is nonsense.

I think you can say the same about Fagerson over Sinckler to be fair
And Aki over quite a few others!

Surely it's Porter over Sinckler that's the odd call there?

laurent wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:46 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:12 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:04 pm
Sexton's fragility will have counted against him more than his form, I expect.

This. He was pretty good in some games, particularly the England game but he's held together by duct tape these days.

Seriously he has had as many concussions as selections time to wrap him in coton wool and save him for his family.

Agree. He has died many times on the Rugby field and then amazingly he has arisen.