So, coronavirus...

Where goats go to escape
Bimbowomxn
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JM2K6 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:37 pm
Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:30 pm “I know more than a professor at Oxford”


:clap:


Joke shop.
You're just refusing to read words or engage with the substance of anything that disagrees with you, aren't you? My criticism of Heneghan isn't that he's ignorant: I think he's being deliberately and wilfully disingenuous.

It's painfully clear, too. Here's what the study says:

"Thus, these findings do not provide data on the effectiveness of widespread mask wearing in the community in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections."

This is Heneghan's claim in his article:

"As a result, it seems that any effect masks have on preventing the spread of the disease in the community is small."

He deliberately draws a conclusion from the study that is explicitly ruled out by the study.

Your Opinion is he did something deliberately.

I’ll take the opinion of the professor of “evidence based medicine “ over yours. As would seem sensible.
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JM2K6
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:37 pm
Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:30 pm “I know more than a professor at Oxford”


:clap:


Joke shop.
You're just refusing to read words or engage with the substance of anything that disagrees with you, aren't you? My criticism of Heneghan isn't that he's ignorant: I think he's being deliberately and wilfully disingenuous.

It's painfully clear, too. Here's what the study says:

"Thus, these findings do not provide data on the effectiveness of widespread mask wearing in the community in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections."

This is Heneghan's claim in his article:

"As a result, it seems that any effect masks have on preventing the spread of the disease in the community is small."

He deliberately draws a conclusion from the study that is explicitly ruled out by the study.

Your Opinion is he did something deliberately.

I’ll take the opinion of the professor of “evidence based medicine “ over yours. As would seem sensible.
He either did it deliberately or he did it accidentally. But the fact is: he did it. As proven by the quotes from the study and the quote from his article. He is directly contradicting the study. Why do you think he's doing that?

Screaming about his qualifications does not change the fact that he very clearly announced that the study proved something that the study explicitly said it did not provide data for. Highly qualified people can still be dishonest.
Bimbowomxn
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Due to the large number of people passing comment on the article on social media without reading it, we have updated the headline to emphasise that the study is about facemask wearers. Covid data can be found on our data hub: data.spectator.co.uk
Bimbowomxn
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He either did it deliberately or he did it accidentally. But the fact is: he did it. As proven by the quotes from the study and the quote from his article. He is directly contradicting the study. Why do you think he's doing that?

Screaming about his qualifications does not change the fact that he very clearly announced that the study proved something that the study explicitly said it did not provide data for. Highly qualified people can still be dishonest.
I’ll take his opinion piece (which actually contains nothing false) over anything you’ve got to say on the matter.

Unless I’m mistaken and your qualified to comment.

Your desperation to debunk this and support masks is quite odd.
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JM2K6
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:49 pm
He either did it deliberately or he did it accidentally. But the fact is: he did it. As proven by the quotes from the study and the quote from his article. He is directly contradicting the study. Why do you think he's doing that?

Screaming about his qualifications does not change the fact that he very clearly announced that the study proved something that the study explicitly said it did not provide data for. Highly qualified people can still be dishonest.
I’ll take his opinion piece (which actually contains nothing false) over anything you’ve got to say on the matter.

Unless I’m mistaken and your qualified to comment.

Your desperation to debunk this and support masks is quite odd.
He contradicts the authors of the paper. Your desperation to point at his credentials instead of dealing with the way he directly contradicts the paper is really sad. It's a textbook appeal to authority. He isn't gonna fuck you, bro.

Very weird how credentials are the single most important thing when someone is saying something you agree with, no matter how accurate, but are irrelevant when they support the things you don't like.

What a waste of everyone's time and mental energy.
Biffer
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Heneghan is misrepresenting someone else’s work. That’s unforgivable in academic circles.
Last edited by Biffer on Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Bimbowomxn
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He contradicts the authors of the paper. Your desperation to point at his credentials instead of dealing with the way he directly contradicts the paper is really sad. It's a textbook appeal to authority. He isn't gonna fuck you, bro.

He doesn’t contradict the authors.

Yes, the evidence based medicine professor does have some authority over the subject at hand.

As for the insult about fucking, it’s an odd thing to post. He knows more than you. He’s better qualified than you.

We now know the wearer isn’t benefited statistically. Eventually we will find out society isn’t benefited by general “face covering”, which was the majority belief less than a year ago.
Bimbowomxn
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Biffer wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:01 pm Hence Ghana is misrepresenting someone else’s work. That’s unforgivable in academic circles.


Perfect.
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JM2K6
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:02 pm
He contradicts the authors of the paper. Your desperation to point at his credentials instead of dealing with the way he directly contradicts the paper is really sad. It's a textbook appeal to authority. He isn't gonna fuck you, bro.

He doesn’t contradict the authors.

Yes, the evidence based medicine professor does have some authority over the subject at hand.

As for the insult about fucking, it’s an odd thing to post. He knows more than you. He’s better qualified than you.

We now know the wearer isn’t benefited statistically. Eventually we will find out society isn’t benefited by general “face covering”, which was the majority belief less than a year ago.
He literally stated a conclusion that the authors explicitly said their study provided no data for. This isn't magic or some sort of arcane unknowable secrets: the words are there for everyone to read, in plain English.
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Tichtheid
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TOPLINE A Covid-19 study conducted in Denmark and published in Annals of Internal Medicine created a heated discourse on social media as some claimed that the study showed masks were ineffective at preventing Covid-19 transmission, while health experts--including the lead researcher behind the study--disagreed.

KEY FACTS
The study, authored by a group of cardiologists in Denmark, studied about 6,000 participants in Denmark, half of whom were told to wear masks and half of whom were not.

The authors found that 42 of the participants who were told to wear masks contracted Covid-19, while 53 of the participants in the control group got the disease, a difference that they said was not statistically significant.

The study did not investigate whether masks prevented those infected with Covid-19 from infecting other people.

Some politically conservative voices on social media have touted this study as proof that masks won’t stop the spread of Covid-19.

However, experts swiftly pointed out that the study has many limitations, including low compliance (many people did not complete the study, and a high percentage of people who were supposed to wear masks did not) and that it took place in a population where spread of Covid-19 was already low.

Multiple studies have found that mask wearing has a big impact on Covid-19, including one in October which found areas in Tennessee with mask mandates had lower hospitalization rates than areas that don’t.

CRUCIAL QUOTE
While the study found little evidence that masks protected the wearers from Covid-19, it should not be used as evidence to not wear a mask. “Even a small degree of protection is worth using the face masks,” says Dr. Henning Bundgaard, professor of Cardiology at Rigshospitalet in Denmark and lead author of the study, “because you are protecting yourself against a potentially life-threatening disease."

CHIEF CRITIC
Dr. Tom Frieden, former Director for the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), wrote a response to the study that was also published in Annals of Internal Medicine. In it, he pointed out that among other limitations, the study authors used antibody tests to diagnose cases of Covid-19 which could have led to a significant number of false positives. In addition, the authors did not make an effort to ensure that people who were told to wear masks wore them correctly, or at all times.Bundgaard replies that the compliance rate was still “considerably better” in the study compared to regular society. He agreed that it was possible that the antibody tests could have led to false positives, but “that risk is in both groups, and that would probably even it out."

KEY BACKGROUND
Dr. Christine Laine, an internal medicine physician and Editor-in-Chief of Annals of Internal Medicine, says that the study did a good job of answering a very specific question: whether or not face masks protect wearers from SARS-CoV-2 infection in areas with low infection rates and high levels of social distancing. "It did not answer the question about whether widespread masking mitigates SARS-CoV-2 infection,” she says, adding that while there were concerns over misinterpretation, the editors agreed publishing this study was important because it is “the only randomized control trial of masks for SARS-CoV-2 infection that has been done to date…this was an important, well-designed study.”

TANGENT
Earlier this month, the CDC updated its mask guidelines to say that masks, including cloth masks, are important to wear because they not only prevent the spread of droplets if someone is infected with Covid-19, but they can also protect the wearer of the mask from the virus. The organization wrote that cloth mask materials could help protect the wearer through filtration of infectious droplets, though much of this evidence has come from lab simulations and not real-world studies. In discussing preventing disease spread, Bundgaard emphasizes that “the face mask is part of it, but it's not the [whole] solution." He says that people should still be practicing regular hand washing and social distancing in order to control the spread of Covid-19.

BIG NUMBER
70%: That’s how much wearing a mask reduces the risk of Covid-19 transmission, according to studies in the U.S. and in Thailand.

SURPRISING FACT
A national mask mandate could save the U.S. economy up to $1 trillion, according to research from Goldman Sachs

FURTHER READING
A New Study Questions Whether Masks Protect Wearers. You Need to Wear Them Anyway ( New York Times)

Face Masks Could Prevent 50 Million Covid-19 Cases In The U.S. (Forbes)

Areas With Mask Mandates Have Lower Covid-19 Hospitalization Rate, Study Finds (Forbes)

Wearing A Mask Is A Sign Of Mutual Respect During The Coronavirus Pandemic (Forbes)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/leahrosenb ... ar-a-mask/


I can understand that this is disappointing to those who were waiting for this "Ta Dah" moment, the Danish study was supposed to show that masks were useless, so arguing that the study says they are, even when it doesn't, would be the obvious route to take.
Rinkals
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:30 pm “I know more than a professor at Oxford”


:clap:


Joke shop.
The joke is on you, apparently.

"I assume Heneghan is not a stupid man,"

Why don't you learn to read? You would be doing yourself a favour.
Bimbowomxn
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JM2K6 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:05 pm
Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:02 pm
He contradicts the authors of the paper. Your desperation to point at his credentials instead of dealing with the way he directly contradicts the paper is really sad. It's a textbook appeal to authority. He isn't gonna fuck you, bro.

He doesn’t contradict the authors.

Yes, the evidence based medicine professor does have some authority over the subject at hand.

As for the insult about fucking, it’s an odd thing to post. He knows more than you. He’s better qualified than you.

We now know the wearer isn’t benefited statistically. Eventually we will find out society isn’t benefited by general “face covering”, which was the majority belief less than a year ago.
He literally stated a conclusion that the authors explicitly said their study provided no data for. This isn't magic or some sort of arcane unknowable secrets: the words are there for everyone to read, in plain English.

He didn’t .....

You enjoy being better than the prof though.

Btw masks don’t work, and false positives on the PCR test make a mockery of the uk test and trace before it’s even started.

Enjoy.
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C69
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:30 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:05 pm
Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:02 pm


He doesn’t contradict the authors.

Yes, the evidence based medicine professor does have some authority over the subject at hand.

As for the insult about fucking, it’s an odd thing to post. He knows more than you. He’s better qualified than you.

We now know the wearer isn’t benefited statistically. Eventually we will find out society isn’t benefited by general “face covering”, which was the majority belief less than a year ago.
He literally stated a conclusion that the authors explicitly said their study provided no data for. This isn't magic or some sort of arcane unknowable secrets: the words are there for everyone to read, in plain English.

He didn’t .....

You enjoy being better than the prof though.

Btw masks don’t work, and false positives on the PCR test make a mockery of the uk test and trace before it’s even started.

Enjoy.
You don't believe that masks work ?

Well you won't see anyone working with Covid patients and AGPs not wearing and N99/FFP3 Mask.
Bimbowomxn
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You don't believe that masks work ?

Well you won't see anyone working with Covid patients and AGPs not wearing and N99/FFP3 Mask.

You’re comparing strict medical use with trained people and highly regulated masks with Bill down the pub and his cut up sock.



Medical genius of the century again.
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JM2K6
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:30 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:05 pm
Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:02 pm


He doesn’t contradict the authors.

Yes, the evidence based medicine professor does have some authority over the subject at hand.

As for the insult about fucking, it’s an odd thing to post. He knows more than you. He’s better qualified than you.

We now know the wearer isn’t benefited statistically. Eventually we will find out society isn’t benefited by general “face covering”, which was the majority belief less than a year ago.
He literally stated a conclusion that the authors explicitly said their study provided no data for. This isn't magic or some sort of arcane unknowable secrets: the words are there for everyone to read, in plain English.

He didn’t .....

You enjoy being better than the prof though.

Btw masks don’t work, and false positives on the PCR test make a mockery of the uk test and trace before it’s even started.

Enjoy.
Yes, he did:

Study: "Thus, these findings do not provide data on the effectiveness of widespread mask wearing in the community in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections."

Heneghan: "As a result, it seems that any effect masks have on preventing the spread of the disease in the community is small."

Very fucking strange that you are apparently more of an expert on the efficacy of masks than the authors of the papers I linked to you a few weeks back, by the way.
Flockwitt
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JM2K6 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:35 pm
Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:30 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:05 pm

He literally stated a conclusion that the authors explicitly said their study provided no data for. This isn't magic or some sort of arcane unknowable secrets: the words are there for everyone to read, in plain English.

He didn’t .....

You enjoy being better than the prof though.

Btw masks don’t work, and false positives on the PCR test make a mockery of the uk test and trace before it’s even started.

Enjoy.
Yes, he did:

Study: "Thus, these findings do not provide data on the effectiveness of widespread mask wearing in the community in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections."

Heneghan: "As a result, it seems that any effect masks have on preventing the spread of the disease in the community is small."

Very fucking strange that you are apparently more of an expert on the efficacy of masks than the authors of the papers I linked to you a few weeks back, by the way.
Tsk, when even mouth breathing Republicans in the USA are flipping on mask mandates you'd think the message would have filtered through.

Fill yer boots :bimbo:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6947e2.htm
Bimbowomxn
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Mask mandates are political.....



Who da think it.



And yes , I’ll say again someone of Heneghans qualification trumps you JM.


As I said enjoy.
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Tichtheid
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:58 pm Mask mandates are political.....



Who da think it.



And yes , I’ll say again someone of Heneghans qualification trumps you JM.


As I said enjoy.

Do Heneghan's qualifications trump the authors of the report in talking about the report?
Flockwitt
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:58 pm Mask mandates are political.....



Who da think it.



And yes , I’ll say again someone of Heneghans qualification trumps you JM.


As I said enjoy.
Do you believe masks are ineffective vs. covid? Not really sure of your actual stance here...
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Raggs
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Guys, please put him on ignore. He's appealing to authority, but ignoring the fact the actual authors of the study say something different to his authority. What are you achieving here? We're not a big enough forum that strangers are going to come along and need to be shown that he's only spouting bullshit. You're accomplishing nothing arguing with him.
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Tichtheid
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Raggs wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:02 pm Guys, please put him on ignore. He's appealing to authority, but ignoring the fact the actual authors of the study say something different to his authority. What are you achieving here? We're not a big enough forum that strangers are going to come along and need to be shown that he's only spouting bullshit. You're accomplishing nothing arguing with him.

Fair point, but I find it fascinating that someone can be so impervious to information

What is obstinate raised to the power of ten?
Bimbowomxn
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Raggs wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:02 pm Guys, please put him on ignore. He's appealing to authority, but ignoring the fact the actual authors of the study say something different to his authority. What are you achieving here? We're not a big enough forum that strangers are going to come along and need to be shown that he's only spouting bullshit. You're accomplishing nothing arguing with him.


I’m recognising that the study was able to look for limited issues due to structure ....

I’m not spouting anything.

We now know wearing a mask does little to protect the wearer .....

It’s not me saying that it’s the study. And carl Heneghans opinion.

You all know better because you’re wedded to an opinion that wasn’t shared a few months ago by any health authority in the west. Now though it’s FACT.
Bimbowomxn
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Flockwitt wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:01 pm
Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:58 pm Mask mandates are political.....



Who da think it.



And yes , I’ll say again someone of Heneghans qualification trumps you JM.


As I said enjoy.
Do you believe masks are ineffective vs. covid? Not really sure of your actual stance here...


I think paper masks badly worn and cloth efforts definitely are of little use VS (whatever that means) the spread of covid.

We now know there’s little use for the wearer for example.
Bimbowomxn
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Wearing a mask if you don't have an infection reduces the risk almost not at all.
the only people advised to wear masks are those with an infection to prevent further spread.
Who said this. ?
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frodder
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:31 pm
Wearing a mask if you don't have an infection reduces the risk almost not at all.
the only people advised to wear masks are those with an infection to prevent further spread.
Who said this. ?
Don't keep us in suspense
yermum
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https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459

reminds me of this paper...
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Sandstorm
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yermum wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:59 pm https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459

reminds me of this paper...
:clap:
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Tichtheid
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That is very funny.


I'm reminded of this, if data on face masks were cows

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Ted.
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:06 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:49 pm Disclaimer, I haven't kept up with this this week, but I think it's probably worth rereading this post from JMK26 on Thursday before screeching about censorship

viewtopic.php?p=52911&sid=3330400e34cdd ... 32f#p52911


Yeah, I’ll take Carl Heneghans take on this over JMK26 .... with him being a professor at Oxford in evidence based medicine.

Call me old fashioned.
Andrew Wakefield thanks you from the bottom of his black heart.
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Ted.
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Tichtheid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:24 pm
Raggs wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:02 pm Guys, please put him on ignore. He's appealing to authority, but ignoring the fact the actual authors of the study say something different to his authority. What are you achieving here? We're not a big enough forum that strangers are going to come along and need to be shown that he's only spouting bullshit. You're accomplishing nothing arguing with him.

Fair point, but I find it fascinating that someone can be so impervious to information

What is obstinate raised to the power of ten?
What we are experiencing could simply be a manifestation of the processes of someone who is as thick as pigshit. Of course that is speculation on my part, purely based on what I have observed here and on PR. Other observations could also be valid.
Rinkals
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Tichtheid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:24 pm
Raggs wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:02 pm Guys, please put him on ignore. He's appealing to authority, but ignoring the fact the actual authors of the study say something different to his authority. What are you achieving here? We're not a big enough forum that strangers are going to come along and need to be shown that he's only spouting bullshit. You're accomplishing nothing arguing with him.

Fair point, but I find it fascinating that someone can be so impervious to information

What is obstinate raised to the power of ten?
I think it's an interesting phenomenon.

Bimbo has obviously read the article, but only taken on board the bits that confirm his own biases, ignoring anything that contradicts them.

I think this is quite common, but what sets Bimbo apart is his absolute faith in his own infallibility and his willingness to parade it to the point where he genuinely feels that he is doing the world a favour by spreading misinformation and making sure that opinions which do not coincide with his own are struck down.

The point is: do we ignore it or confront it?
Rinkals
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Ted. wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:29 am
Tichtheid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:24 pm
Raggs wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:02 pm Guys, please put him on ignore. He's appealing to authority, but ignoring the fact the actual authors of the study say something different to his authority. What are you achieving here? We're not a big enough forum that strangers are going to come along and need to be shown that he's only spouting bullshit. You're accomplishing nothing arguing with him.

Fair point, but I find it fascinating that someone can be so impervious to information

What is obstinate raised to the power of ten?
What we are experiencing could simply be a manifestation of the processes of someone who is as thick as pigshit. Of course that is speculation on my part, purely based on what I have observed here and on PR. Other observations could also be valid.
I think that he is simply unwilling to look at data which doesn't confirm what he already knows.

I think he is so convinced of his own superiority and the inferiority of anyone who doesn't reflect his own opinion that he is incapable of any rational thought or objective reasoning which may call that into question.

If that amounts to "thick as pigshit", then yes; yes he is.
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“Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.”
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Raggs
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Rinkals wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:25 am
Tichtheid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:24 pm
Raggs wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:02 pm Guys, please put him on ignore. He's appealing to authority, but ignoring the fact the actual authors of the study say something different to his authority. What are you achieving here? We're not a big enough forum that strangers are going to come along and need to be shown that he's only spouting bullshit. You're accomplishing nothing arguing with him.

Fair point, but I find it fascinating that someone can be so impervious to information

What is obstinate raised to the power of ten?
I think it's an interesting phenomenon.

Bimbo has obviously read the article, but only taken on board the bits that confirm his own biases, ignoring anything that contradicts them.

I think this is quite common, but what sets Bimbo apart is his absolute faith in his own infallibility and his willingness to parade it to the point where he genuinely feels that he is doing the world a favour by spreading misinformation and making sure that opinions which do not coincide with his own are struck down.

The point is: do we ignore it or confront it?
If this as an open forum where thousands of people came through then definitely confront. But this is a fairly closed community, if anyone new does join they'll quote him and then you can choose to confrontthe stupid.
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Bimbowomxn
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:bimbo: ,


“ I don’t like what he says......”


Posting conservative opinion regarding science is now a heresy....


Doesn’t anyone have any doubt at all about an absolute expert being censored by a tech group. ?
Bimbowomxn
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Does anyone believe that there’s a serious issue now with asymptomatic spreading of covid.?
Slick
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Rinkals wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:31 am
Ted. wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:29 am
Tichtheid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:24 pm


Fair point, but I find it fascinating that someone can be so impervious to information

What is obstinate raised to the power of ten?
What we are experiencing could simply be a manifestation of the processes of someone who is as thick as pigshit. Of course that is speculation on my part, purely based on what I have observed here and on PR. Other observations could also be valid.
I think that he is simply unwilling to look at data which doesn't confirm what he already knows.

I think he is so convinced of his own superiority and the inferiority of anyone who doesn't reflect his own opinion that he is incapable of any rational thought or objective reasoning which may call that into question.

If that amounts to "thick as pigshit", then yes; yes he is.
Decent summary
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Uncle fester
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This thread is fücking unreadable.
yermum
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And for good measure this seminal study:

https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094
The PARACHUTE trial does suggest, however, that their accurate interpretation requires more than a cursory reading of the abstract.
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