NPR

SA Round 2 fixtures
Friday
Lions vs Stade Francais (7.30pm)
Bordeaux vs Sharks (10pm)

Saturday
Exeter Chiefs vs Bulls (3pm),
Cheetahs vs Scarlets (7.15 pm)Stadio Sergio Lanfran Parma
Stormers vs London Irish (7:30pm).

The Cheetahs vs Scarlets match will be interesting from a South African perspective.

Champions cup attendance

Sards wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 7:26 pm Champions cup attendance

Cheers, where do you get this info?

Sards wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 7:26 pm Champions cup attendance

Validates what I've been banging on about for ages; you have to have an appropriately sized stadium !!

Compare the atmosphere in Clermont, to Durban, despite there being only a thousand or so difference in attendance.

Saffer sides are better off identifying where the people who attend come from, & then find a location, like a University closer to them, & throw up some temporary stands, & lay on some attractions for the kids etc, & give the stadium the middle finger, until they give them a location they can work in.

OomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:38 pm

Sards wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 7:26 pm Champions cup attendance

Cheers, where do you get this info?

It was in a Tweet from Rugby Inside Line, saw it posted on Reddit earlier. Didn't see any source for the figures, but not particularly

Sale and London Irish usually get fairly crap crowds anyway, so a low turnout isn't a massive surprise for them. Thought Gloucester would get to at least 10k, they usually have very good crowds at Kingsholm.

Guess with the weather, cost of living crisis, general antipathy towards the current iteration of the tournament and the football being on that a lot of people weren't tempted to watch in person.

Will be interesting to see how clubs used to selling out or being very close to doing so like Leicester and Harlequins fare this week.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:50 pm

Sards wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 7:26 pm Champions cup attendance

Validates what I've been banging on about for ages; you have to have an appropriately sized stadium !!

Compare the atmosphere in Clermont, to Durban, despite there being only a thousand or so difference in attendance.

Saffer sides are better off identifying where the people who attend come from, & then find a location, like a University closer to them, & throw up some temporary stands, & lay on some attractions for the kids etc, & give the stadium the middle finger, until they give them a location they can work in.

For most part the teams own the stadiums here. Why pay someone to play in a smaller stadium when you already own a 50000-seater?

If there was any desire to move games to smaller digs, we won't need to throw up any temporary shit. We have top class alternative facilities already available.

I hope Cape Town Stadium gets a decent attendance. With the 7s just finished I don't expect much.

We won't be going

I see White split his side. 1 group heading North for the Cup. And another side staying local to prepare for the Stormers in the URC

This is just ridiculous

robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:22 am

GogLais wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 6:09 pm Dear God you’ve got to be keen to watch this stuff.

Presumably Ospreys at least got a decent crowd in with a proper atmosphere for this one, because I heard that it's playing English opposition that will rescue Welsh rugby.

Not sure whether you know really and are on a wind-up but I think I heard less than 5k. It was a bit cold and there was Christmas shopping to be done.

Sards wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:10 am I hope Cape Town Stadium gets a decent attendance. With the 7s just finished I don't expect much.

We won't be going

Stormers pull 20,000 usually. The Bulls URC game will get 30,000. Even PE 14,500 look great comparing with this.

I see Ox was cited. Ridiculous.

Sards wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:16 pm I see Ox was cited. Ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? He got red carded, that's an automatic citing. There's an outside chance that a red card would be deemed excessive at the hearing, but in that instance it was absolutely the right sanction and I would expect him to receive a (paltry) ban.

The Nche red card was the right decision.

What makes it interesting is waiting to hear what sanction will be handed down.

The previous week Cian Healy received a red card for a tackle in which there was head on head at the first point of contact, the Ulster player was badly cut as a result and there was a lot of blood. Healy's tackle was far worse than Nche's.

The Leinster player's card was inexplicably downgraded to yellow, so he was cleared to play immediately. ("Inexplicable" unless you've been following the Celtic League/ Pro 12/14/URC for years)

Now I know it's a different competition, but if Nche's card is not downgraded there will be serious questions needing answers.

For the record, I don't think either card should be downgraded, not if we are to take head injuries seriously. Only sanctions are going to change behaviour, back in the amateur days there wasn't anything like the number of head collisions at the top, or any, level. The danger isn't just in the size of the modern day player, it also has a lot to do with the coached way players try to make a dominant hit in every tackle

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:43 pm

Sards wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:16 pm I see Ox was cited. Ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? He got red carded, that's an automatic citing. There's an outside chance that a red card would be deemed excessive at the hearing, but in that instance it was absolutely the right sanction and I would expect him to receive a (paltry) ban.

Considering we already have Thomas du Toit sitting out games for the same offense it's going to rip our starting front row apart

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:59 pm The Nche red card was the right decision.

What makes it interesting is waiting to hear what sanction will be handed down.

The previous week Cian Healy received a red card for a tackle in which there was head on head at the first point of contact, the Ulster player was badly cut as a result and there was a lot of blood. Healy's tackle was far worse than Nche's.

The Leinster player's card was inexplicably downgraded to yellow, so he was cleared to play immediately. ("Inexplicable" unless you've been following the Celtic League/ Pro 12/14/URC for years)

Now I know it's a different competition, but if Nche's card is not downgraded there will be serious questions needing answers.

For the record, I don't think either card should be downgraded, not if we are to take head injuries seriously. Only sanctions are going to change behaviour, back in the amateur days there wasn't anything like the number of head collisions at the top, or any, level. The danger isn't just in the size of the modern day player, it also has a lot to do with the coached way players try to make a dominant hit in every tackle

Of course it was. It was about the same level of danger as the Creevy head contact in the Montpellier match the night before
Didn't see or hear about the Healy incident but there surely has to be complete consistency across all competitions and with all disciplinary panels.
Warwick the Ulster prop has been cited for exactly the same action on Tuilagi, for some inexplicable reason, he didn't even receive a yellow card on the pitch.

Sards wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 4:12 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:43 pm

Sards wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:16 pm I see Ox was cited. Ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? He got red carded, that's an automatic citing. There's an outside chance that a red card would be deemed excessive at the hearing, but in that instance it was absolutely the right sanction and I would expect him to receive a (paltry) ban.

Considering we already have Thomas du Toit sitting out games for the same offense it's going to rip our starting front row apart

Perhaps they should learn not to lead with their heads and get into position and tackle correctly. It applies to all players from all teams in all countries and the players need to learn.

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 4:16 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:59 pm The Nche red card was the right decision.

What makes it interesting is waiting to hear what sanction will be handed down.

The previous week Cian Healy received a red card for a tackle in which there was head on head at the first point of contact, the Ulster player was badly cut as a result and there was a lot of blood. Healy's tackle was far worse than Nche's.

The Leinster player's card was inexplicably downgraded to yellow, so he was cleared to play immediately. ("Inexplicable" unless you've been following the Celtic League/ Pro 12/14/URC for years)

Now I know it's a different competition, but if Nche's card is not downgraded there will be serious questions needing answers.

For the record, I don't think either card should be downgraded, not if we are to take head injuries seriously. Only sanctions are going to change behaviour, back in the amateur days there wasn't anything like the number of head collisions at the top, or any, level. The danger isn't just in the size of the modern day player, it also has a lot to do with the coached way players try to make a dominant hit in every tackle

Of course it was. It was about the same level of danger as the Creevy head contact in the Montpellier match the night before
Didn't see or hear about the Healy incident but there surely has to be complete consistency across all competitions and with all disciplinary panels.
Warwick the Ulster prop has been cited for exactly the same action on Tuilagi, for some inexplicable reason, he didn't even receive a yellow card on the pitch.

Considering Ox served out a red there should be mitigation

I can't argue with Ox's red card, according to the letter of the law.

But I do think they need to relook at the laws. A lot of the time these head-on-head contacts are accidental, and are going to happen regardless of the sanction. I really think they need to start considering intent in the laws.

Despite the higher sanctions, we still seem to see red cards with the same frequency as ever.

And he gets 3 weeks....insane.

Sards wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:25 pm And he gets 3 weeks....insane.

No, he gets 6 weeks reduced to 3 if he has a clean disciplinary record and accepts why he got a red card in this instance.

assfly wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:12 pm I can't argue with Ox's red card, according to the letter of the law.

But I do think they need to relook at the laws. A lot of the time these head-on-head contacts are accidental, and are going to happen regardless of the sanction. I really think they need to start considering intent in the laws.

Despite the higher sanctions, we still seem to see red cards with the same frequency as ever.

As I said in the other place - the guy juggling knives may have stabbed himself accidentally, but he's still responsible for putting himself in that level of danger.

Coaches and players are still not getting the message - you must go lower to tackle. Watch videos of Dan Lydiate and you'll see how you can go low and still effect a dominant tackle. It's all about the technique and right now coaches are failing players on both sides of the ball.

Healy gets a red card on the pitch, but is later downgraded (wrongly). Warwick doesn't even concede a penalty on the pitch but is later cited. There's just far far too much inconsistency.

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:32 pm

Sards wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:25 pm And he gets 3 weeks....insane.

No, he gets 6 weeks reduced to 3 if he has a clean disciplinary record and accepts why he got a red card in this instance.

That is unacceptable. That's like saying if you admit guilt you will have it reduced to 3. Not giving the opportunity for appeal

Sards wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:31 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:32 pm

Sards wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:25 pm And he gets 3 weeks....insane.

No, he gets 6 weeks reduced to 3 if he has a clean disciplinary record and accepts why he got a red card in this instance.

That is unacceptable. That's like saying if you admit guilt you will have it reduced to 3. Not giving the opportunity for appeal

He could appeal any sanction though if the appeal fails the full ban would more than likely stand. Probably best to take the medicine like any others in his situation particularly if he has a clean record

Sards wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:31 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:32 pm

Sards wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:25 pm And he gets 3 weeks....insane.

No, he gets 6 weeks reduced to 3 if he has a clean disciplinary record and accepts why he got a red card in this instance.

That is unacceptable. That's like saying if you admit guilt you will have it reduced to 3. Not giving the opportunity for appeal

This is how it's been for years and years, why are you surprised?

Fwiw, I don't think that contrition and admission of fault should reduce bans.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:08 pm

I'm guessing he wasn't inviting him over for dinner. He'll cop a ban for that.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:22 am That's about as bad as you will see bar a punch in the face. I think what makes it worse is he is the coach. You would hope the ban is horrific considering Radge has got nailed a few times for saying refs are a pain but kept his hands in his pockets

Thought I read yesterday that the maximum is a life ban and the minimum a 24week ban for physically abusing a ref.

assfly wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:12 pm I can't argue with Ox's red card, according to the letter of the law.

But I do think they need to relook at the laws. A lot of the time these head-on-head contacts are accidental, and are going to happen regardless of the sanction. I really think they need to start considering intent in the laws.

Despite the higher sanctions, we still seem to see red cards with the same frequency as ever.

There's accidental and then there's "decides to tackle upright without bending at any stage". I know he's fat, but he can bend, because he did so immediately afterwards to steal the ball.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:58 am

assfly wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:12 pm I can't argue with Ox's red card, according to the letter of the law.

But I do think they need to relook at the laws. A lot of the time these head-on-head contacts are accidental, and are going to happen regardless of the sanction. I really think they need to start considering intent in the laws.

Despite the higher sanctions, we still seem to see red cards with the same frequency as ever.

There's accidental and then there's "decides to tackle upright without bending at any stage". I know he's fat, but he can bend, because he did so immediately afterwards to steal the ball.

FAT? Who are you calling fat? Our Ox is a little pudgy at best, how dare you call him fat.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:58 am There's accidental and then there's "decides to tackle upright without bending at any stage". I know he's fat, but he can bend, because he did so immediately afterwards to steal the ball.

His technique is poor. But I don't think any player decided to deliberately smash heads and risk their own head safety, hence why it's accidental in my book.

assfly wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:18 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:58 am There's accidental and then there's "decides to tackle upright without bending at any stage". I know he's fat, but he can bend, because he did so immediately afterwards to steal the ball.

His technique is poor. But I don't think any player decided to deliberately smash heads and risk their own head safety, hence why it's accidental in my book.

They’re trying to eliminate poor and dangerous technique.

assfly wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:18 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:58 am There's accidental and then there's "decides to tackle upright without bending at any stage". I know he's fat, but he can bend, because he did so immediately afterwards to steal the ball.

His technique is poor. But I don't think any player decided to deliberately smash heads and risk their own head safety, hence why it's accidental in my book.

He knows better. They all know and can do better, to not do so is a choice. When they choose not to it is at best lazy in a way that is dismissive of the potential danger their choice poses to their fellow professionals.

Simian wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:31 pm

assfly wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:18 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:58 am There's accidental and then there's "decides to tackle upright without bending at any stage". I know he's fat, but he can bend, because he did so immediately afterwards to steal the ball.

His technique is poor. But I don't think any player decided to deliberately smash heads and risk their own head safety, hence why it's accidental in my book.

They’re trying to eliminate poor and dangerous technique.

Good luck at the Sharks. Both their starting front rowers are in the dock for this.

Simian wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:31 pm They’re trying to eliminate poor and dangerous technique.

I agree, but my point is that the red cards don't appear to be deterring players from these tackles. Red cards for head contact appear to happen every weekend.

assfly wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:28 pm

Simian wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:31 pm They’re trying to eliminate poor and dangerous technique.

I agree, but my point is that the red cards don't appear to be deterring players from these tackles. Red cards for head contact appear to happen every weekend.

I don't think red cards is the important metric for gauging success tho. Surely it's number of head injuries, dangerous collisions etc? (not saying those would necessarily show it's working, but only because I've not seen data on it)

Also worth considering that it's not too long ago where, if these sorts of head collisions were red carded, you'd probably have seen a large number of reds in pretty much every game.

I don't think there can be much complaint about the Nche red. The complaints should be about Warwick not getting similar (I mean, mistakes will be made, but come on!) and the completely out of step rescinding of Healy's red. That was just wild.

Simian wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:36 pm I don't think there can be much complaint about the Nche red. The complaints should be about Warwick not getting similar (I mean, mistakes will be made, but come on!) and the completely out of step rescinding of Healy's red. That was just wild.

on all three points