NPR

Blake wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:28 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:53 am I guess that's something this particular Russian war makes easy. The Ukranians are very clear that they're facing an existential threat.
That tends to focus the mind and ensure loyalty...

Indeed. It's just amazing how worlds apart they are...Zelenskyy with his men, Putin cowering at the end of a long table.

The memes write themselves.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:38 pm

TheFrog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:14 am

Plim wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:29 pm Is there any reliable information about the scope and pace of German military aid to Ukraine? General consensus seems to be that the Germans are stalling and reneging.

If true, would seem to be a shame after all other Western European states, and the US, have stood fast and been solid in support.

For start, the germans have few weapons of their own. Their stocks are low because they invested so little in their defense.

It's complete bollox generally being spread by Tory rags. It was like the story they had renaged on giving Poland replacement tanks for the ones they gave Ukraine. In fact Poland had refused older tanks and wanted new ones. To be clear the fucking Germans didn't even have the new ones.

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:33 pm

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:09 pm Apparently a second Russian general was killed yesterday in Donbas, Lt. Gen. Roman Berdnikov.

Highest ranking Russian general so far, lieutenant general Roman Berdnikov, commander of the 29th Army of RF, has been killed in Ukraine this morning near Severodonetsk

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:38 pm

TheFrog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:14 am

Plim wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:29 pm Is there any reliable information about the scope and pace of German military aid to Ukraine? General consensus seems to be that the Germans are stalling and reneging.

If true, would seem to be a shame after all other Western European states, and the US, have stood fast and been solid in support.

For start, the germans have few weapons of their own. Their stocks are low because they invested so little in their defense.

It's complete bollox generally being spread by Tory rags. It was like the story they had renaged on giving Poland replacement tanks for the ones they gave Ukraine. In fact Poland had refused older tanks and wanted new ones. To be clear the fucking Germans didn't even have the new ones.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:45 am You are not paying attention if you don't agree. It started in Mar j and has been relentless

Big thing on tracks that goes boom! Or gets blown up by some muppet at BATUS.

Used by The Royal Artillery.

Vaguely Interesting Point: Most RA Self Propelled systems from WWII onwards have had ecclesiastic names: Abbot, Priest etc.

AS90 took so long and so much money to get into service because of VSEL fuck-ups that it has been christened "Choirboy" on account of 10 years being buggered by Vickers.

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:51 pm During a bored moment at work (are there any other types of moment?) I was reading up on some of the tracked artillery equipment available to western countries.

The UK equipment is something called AS90, which is now pretty much obsolescent in the main as the gun calibre at 39 gives too short a range. Attempts to increase it to an industry standard 52 calibre were stymied by problems with the propellant which the supplier couldn't resolve. Apparently the errant supplier was South African, which we won't go into.

Anyway, there's a delightful description of the equipment in the Army Rumour Service (Arrse) wiki page:

Big thing on tracks that goes boom! Or gets blown up by some muppet at BATUS.

Used by The Royal Artillery.

Vaguely Interesting Point: Most RA Self Propelled systems from WWII onwards have had ecclesiastic names: Abbot, Priest etc.

AS90 took so long and so much money to get into service because of VSEL fuck-ups that it has been christened "Choirboy" on account of 10 years being buggered by Vickers.

Mariupol on brink of cholera outbreak as city 'drowns in rubbish and sewage'

Deputy mayor Sergeii Orlov said summer is accelerating the decomposition of ‘thousands of corpses’, while Mariupol residents have no way out of the Russian-held city.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:33 am Meanwhile, the joy of Russian "liberation" continues

Mariupol on brink of cholera outbreak as city 'drowns in rubbish and sewage'

Deputy mayor Sergeii Orlov said summer is accelerating the decomposition of ‘thousands of corpses’, while Mariupol residents have no way out of the Russian-held city.

One of the notorious soldiers of the Russian army has been killed by a Ukrainian sniper in Kharkiv, multiple news reports have said. Vladimir Andonov died at night during reconnaissance of the area, along with his comrade, said a report in Newsweek.
The report is based a story in Russian newspaper Moskovsky Komsomolets. "The death in Ukraine of Vladimir Andonov, better known as Vaha, has become known," the publication said.

Andonov had played a crucial part role in the mass shooting of Ukrainian prisoners of war and execution of civilians in the Donbas region, Sky News reported. The 44-year-old had volunteered to take part in the mass shooting, the publication further said.

He was part of the Wagner group, an organisation of relentless mercenaries, as per Sky News report. Andonov was part of Russian special forces in the Donbas region when Moscow seized Crimea in 2014. Wagner Group fighters are mainly ex-paratroopers or special forces operatives.

The Russian military also confirmed Andonvo's death on messaging app Telegram.

Andonov was given the nickname "The Executioner" due to the brutal tactics he used in previous missions in Syria and Libya.

According to Newsweek, Andolov belonged to Mogoytuysky District, in the Siberian republic of Buryatia.

Andonov's death marks another loss for Russian President Vladimir Putin, after two other Russian generals were killed on Sunday. Major General Roman Kutuzov and Lieutenant General Roman Berdnikov were killed in the Donbas region, reportedly by Ukrainian military.

Their deaths have not been confirmed officially by Moscow.

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:30 am Away from the actual battlefield - who is winning the economic war?

Unlike Russia, western democracies are far more accountable - and the economic consequences of the war might be more difficult to manage in the longer term. Could Western Governments be starting to tire of the war and become wary of the electorial consequences of inflation and shortages etc. - where Putin just keeps Russia under an iron grip - and keeps the truth away from its people.

I seriously wonder whether the West's resolve will outlast Russia and they'll start to really push Ukraine towards a settlement that concedes territory - or slowly reduce the support and make compromises to reduce shortages. Some countries will inevitably start to weaken and take some easy options to ease their economic plight.

Away from the actual battlefield - who is winning the economic war?

Unlike Russia, western democracies are far more accountable - and the economic consequences of the war might be more difficult to manage in the longer term. Could Western Governments be starting to tire of the war and become wary of the electorial consequences of inflation and shortages etc. - where Putin just keeps Russia under an iron grip - and keeps the truth away from its people.

I seriously wonder whether the West's resolve will outlast Russia and they'll start to really push Ukraine towards a settlement that concedes territory - or slowly reduce the support and make compromises to reduce shortages. Some countries will inevitably start to weaken and take some easy options to ease their economic plight.

That is where this war will be lost or won in my opinion. On the ground, both countries can keep going for a long time, at high costs, but both sides can continue to send manpower to the front albeit poorly armed.

The economic war is a key element to bring Russia to its knees and as you pointed out, this requires the people of Western countries need to stand by their government and the Ukrainians.

The latest - partial ban - on Russian oil has sent the oil prices through the roof and the average middle class person in Europe or the US is feeling the pain now. It is nothing compared to the pain Ukrainians feel daily but human beings are short sigthed and very selfish.

The Druid wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:32 pm Unfortunately I believe Ovals and TheFrog have both summed up the situation precisely and sadly Ukraine will ultimately be let down badly. That being said I sincerely hope that I am wrong and Russia is pushed back to its borders.

Ovals wrote.

Away from the actual battlefield - who is winning the economic war?

Unlike Russia, western democracies are far more accountable - and the economic consequences of the war might be more difficult to manage in the longer term. Could Western Governments be starting to tire of the war and become wary of the electorial consequences of inflation and shortages etc. - where Putin just keeps Russia under an iron grip - and keeps the truth away from its people.

I seriously wonder whether the West's resolve will outlast Russia and they'll start to really push Ukraine towards a settlement that concedes territory - or slowly reduce the support and make compromises to reduce shortages. Some countries will inevitably start to weaken and take some easy options to ease their economic plight.

TheFrog wrote.

That is where this war will be lost or won in my opinion. On the ground, both countries can keep going for a long time, at high costs, but both sides can continue to send manpower to the front albeit poorly armed.

The economic war is a key element to bring Russia to its knees and as you pointed out, this requires the people of Western countries need to stand by their government and the Ukrainians.

The latest - partial ban - on Russian oil has sent the oil prices through the roof and the average middle class person in Europe or the US is feeling the pain now. It is nothing compared to the pain Ukrainians feel daily but human beings are short sigthed and very selfish.

derriz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:19 pm The war in Ukraine isn't helping matters but it's a tiny factor in causing the current economic woes around the world. If the war stopped tomorrow, the global economy would still be in the shit.

Oil prices had been rising steeply long before the invasion of Ukraine started, for example. I has risen about 20% since the invasion but that's after rising about 100% over the year prior to that.

Rising interest rates were inevitable since monetary policy never tightened fully after the GCF, only to be loosened even further during covid. Fiscal policy the same - governments running massive deficits to keep things ticking over during the lockdowns - at some stage the government spending party has to stop.

Just because the world is back to pre-covid patterns of living, doesn't mean the economy experiences an immediate return to normal. The world economy is still see-sawing from the massive economic, trade and investment shock/contraction caused by covid. There was a "see" spurt of "catch-up" growth (which also fuels inflation) followed by the "saw" of where we are now.

Add to this, the slow collapse of the Chinese economy - which is property related and predates the invasion of Ukraine by a year if not more.

The cost to the west of sustaining the war - in term of financial and military support is minuscule. Even the cost of supporting the refugees is not that significant for western governments. I'm also skeptical that we're all going to starve - wheat prices are already 30% below their March peak as big producers - like the US where farmers has a lot of flexibility on what cereals they grow - are stepping up to increase production.

If if you can cold-heartedly ignore the horrors of what the Russians c*nts are inflicting on the Ukraine, being completely selfish bastards, the benefits to the west are huge - for a 30th the cost of the Iraq war for example, we effectively get to take out the military capability of one of the two of the biggest and most destabilising f*cking asshole countries that have spent the last 2 or 3 decades invading and threatening neighbours, promoting propaganda globally, conducting murders in broad daylight in the west, shooting down passenger aircraft, etc.

derriz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:19 pm The war in Ukraine isn't helping matters but it's a tiny factor in causing the current economic woes around the world. If the war stopped tomorrow, the global economy would still be in the shit.

Oil prices had been rising steeply long before the invasion of Ukraine started, for example. I has risen about 20% since the invasion but that's after rising about 100% over the year prior to that.

Rising interest rates were inevitable since monetary policy never tightened fully after the GCF, only to be loosened even further during covid. Fiscal policy the same - governments running massive deficits to keep things ticking over during the lockdowns - at some stage the government spending party has to stop.

Just because the world is back to pre-covid patterns of living, doesn't mean the economy experiences an immediate return to normal. The world economy is still see-sawing from the massive economic, trade and investment shock/contraction caused by covid. There was a "see" spurt of "catch-up" growth (which also fuels inflation) followed by the "saw" of where we are now.

Add to this, the slow collapse of the Chinese economy - which is property related and predates the invasion of Ukraine by a year if not more.

The cost to the west of sustaining the war - in term of financial and military support is minuscule. Even the cost of supporting the refugees is not that significant for western governments. I'm also skeptical that we're all going to starve - wheat prices are already 30% below their March peak as big producers - like the US where farmers has a lot of flexibility on what cereals they grow - are stepping up to increase production.

If if you can cold-heartedly ignore the horrors of what the Russians c*nts are inflicting on the Ukraine, being completely selfish bastards, the benefits to the west are huge - for a 30th the cost of the Iraq war for example, we effectively get to take out the military capability of one of the two of the biggest and most destabilising f*cking asshole countries that have spent the last 2 or 3 decades invading and threatening neighbours, promoting propaganda globally, conducting murders in broad daylight in the west, shooting down passenger aircraft, etc.

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:57 pm

derriz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:19 pm The war in Ukraine isn't helping matters but it's a tiny factor in causing the current economic woes around the world. If the war stopped tomorrow, the global economy would still be in the shit.

Oil prices had been rising steeply long before the invasion of Ukraine started, for example. I has risen about 20% since the invasion but that's after rising about 100% over the year prior to that.

Rising interest rates were inevitable since monetary policy never tightened fully after the GCF, only to be loosened even further during covid. Fiscal policy the same - governments running massive deficits to keep things ticking over during the lockdowns - at some stage the government spending party has to stop.

Just because the world is back to pre-covid patterns of living, doesn't mean the economy experiences an immediate return to normal. The world economy is still see-sawing from the massive economic, trade and investment shock/contraction caused by covid. There was a "see" spurt of "catch-up" growth (which also fuels inflation) followed by the "saw" of where we are now.

Add to this, the slow collapse of the Chinese economy - which is property related and predates the invasion of Ukraine by a year if not more.

The cost to the west of sustaining the war - in term of financial and military support is minuscule. Even the cost of supporting the refugees is not that significant for western governments. I'm also skeptical that we're all going to starve - wheat prices are already 30% below their March peak as big producers - like the US where farmers has a lot of flexibility on what cereals they grow - are stepping up to increase production.

If if you can cold-heartedly ignore the horrors of what the Russians c*nts are inflicting on the Ukraine, being completely selfish bastards, the benefits to the west are huge - for a 30th the cost of the Iraq war for example, we effectively get to take out the military capability of one of the two of the biggest and most destabilising f*cking asshole countries that have spent the last 2 or 3 decades invading and threatening neighbours, promoting propaganda globally, conducting murders in broad daylight in the west, shooting down passenger aircraft, etc.

All true - but given all the existing problems, we needed a war in Ukraine like a hole in the head - and I think you haven't factored in the likely knock on affect on Wolrd famine. I'm just not sure that the Western democracies have the staying power as Russia, unless Putin is overthrown.