NPR

Hyundai Ioniq 5 AWD 85kWh would get you anywhere down south with a 15 minute charging break

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:00 am

epwc wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:58 am There are bucket loads of smaller cars that would do that. I drove from Glasgow to Essex in a Qashqai in the storms last January without feeling like I needed something bigger/more powerful/more rugged.

As an ex-employee of Jaguar Land Rover, I respectfully disagree.

What part do you disagree with? I really didn't feel the need for something bigger, chunkier. I've not felt uncomfortable driving my Cupra Born on motorways or country roads anywhere

Obviously unsuited to icy trips to the highlands but as you say, you don't need to do those...

epwc wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:04 am

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:00 am

epwc wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:58 am There are bucket loads of smaller cars that would do that. I drove from Glasgow to Essex in a Qashqai in the storms last January without feeling like I needed something bigger/more powerful/more rugged.

As an ex-employee of Jaguar Land Rover, I respectfully disagree.

What part do you disagree with? I really didn't feel the need for something bigger, chunkier. I've not felt uncomfortable driving my Cupra Born on motorways or country roads anywhere

Obviously unsuited to icy trips to the highlands but as you say, you don't need to do those...

They're not equivalent.

I've driven through borders in bad weather (there's some joke about what other type of scottish weather is there) on many occasions in many vehicles and the Disco is easily the best suited. I had to do that for 2 years, and I have a horrible feeling I'll be doing it again in the not-so-distant.

I'm afraid I can't really comment on what you feel safe with, or what works for you. Without being condescending but intending to make a point, I'm sure you're the best judge of that.

I'm not sure where you live and whether your drive down south involves driving through the borders. As sandstorm says if this is occasional then it's probably much better to keep your existing diesel than buy a new car.

I'm not sure why either of us need to be condescending, I wasn't intending to be.

If you're committed to buying a new car for those journeys I think a petrol PHEV Disco Sport is better than a diesel as long as you're charging it, but I'd also say if conditions are that bad then should you be making the trip? There are certainly AWD EV options available now but it's true that none have the off road abilities of a Disco.

I remember seeing a photo online of one of the big American SUV van type, Ford Ranger or whatever it is, parked beside a little Toyota Hiace sort of thing. The Ford looked twice the size of the Toyota, but the beds on them were the same size.

I just had a look and I can hire a Volvo 4x4 for a week for £450, which is fine if I know when I might need it. I used my LandRover Series 3 pickup for work (agricultural fencing), but that is dwarfed by the new Defender, which in most cases will never be off a tarmac road.

My 21 year old Galaxy is coming to the end of its life, I've had it 16 years and I'm really not sure where to go. My brother has a new Quasquai EV which he really likes, Ive been looking at Ford Kuga or maybe the compact 4x4 Skoda Karoq. I don't need to carry forty fenceposts and rolls of fence wire and deer netting, but I do need to drive on icy roads and across fords etc

Literally nothing on the market nowadays in the MPV class.

epwc wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:43 am Literally nothing on the market nowadays in the MPV class.

I've barely spent a penny on it beyond annual services and tyres, brake pads, wiper blades, exhaust etc,

It's a bit tatty inside, the locking system is temperamental to say the least and that pisses me off. If I could find a way to make all the doors lock manually without me ripping out the wiring loom then I'd probably keep it on until the gearbox or clutch mechanism fell out and on to the road.

Tichtheid wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:57 amIf I could find a way to make all the doors lock manually without me ripping out the wiring loom then I'd probably keep it on until the gearbox or clutch mechanism fell out and on to the road.

Must be a fuse or relay that can be removed

I drive a 1.0 litre VW Polo.

I'm 53 and it's my third car (Ford Fiesta, BMW Z3 were the other two). I've had it for nine years, it was two years old when I got it. Just starting to think about changing it now, probably for another Polo tbh, although if I move house and have a drive / garage to charge in I'll look at an EV. No hurry though, might be a couple more years. I really don't understand this obsession with changing your car every three years, and never owning the actual asset. Feels like a combination of vanity and being permanently in hock to finance companies because you want to drive something you can't actually afford to buy.

dpedin wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:02 am

robmatic wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 4:57 am

weegie01 wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 5:40 pm

As long as those of us who live in rural areas and actually use them for what they were designed for are exempt. It should also be impossible to buy one unless you own at least one reasonably large trailer.

Even then there is a massive difference between what you need if you live in a rural area and some of these suburban monstrosities. My Dad's old Toyota Hilux, which could pull a trailer full of cattle, was about half the size of these shiny American-style pickups that you see.

My mates wife just got a Porsche Taycan Turismo, best part of £90k. They live in deepest Edinburgh suburbia, kids left home but have a wee dog. Mostly used for trips to shops and odd trip in Scotland but not too far as they are worried about charging. He justifies it by saying he charges it from his solar panels so it's green and he has no fuel costs. However it is huge and weighs about 2.5 tons. His wife struggles to park it. I know it is their money so their choice but ...

I hope it's a nice colour and not the usual 50 shades of residuals grey or - shudder - Crayon.

Also, the Taycan is definitely not a car for kids, just put down the back seats to increase the load bay.

Biffer wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 11:36 am I drive a 1.0 litre VW Polo.

I'm 53 and it's my third car (Ford Fiesta, BMW Z3 were the other two). I've had it for nine years, it was two years old when I got it. Just starting to think about changing it now, probably for another Polo tbh, although if I move house and have a drive / garage to charge in I'll look at an EV. No hurry though, might be a couple more years. I really don't understand this obsession with changing your car every three years, and never owning the actual asset. Feels like a combination of vanity and being permanently in hock to finance companies because you want to drive something you can't actually afford to buy.

I've never been into cars and usually run them into the ground as well. In saying that, since I've been back in Scotland and we do a fair few miles going to the Highlands for walking etc I am getting a bit tired of being constantly worried about the thing giving up with the family in it. Every trip is quite stressful!

When you see this you know we are doomed.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/11 ... -20-miles/

wasting everything

PS on cars I am 55 and never bought a new car
started with R5 then got a Fiat Punto (1st gen) then a C4 1st gen then anotherC4 II
not planning to buy another one for a good while longer and then that means likely a refurb electrical. (I barely use a tank of gas per month)

Electrical is problematic as I would not have a way to charge it at home. (on street parking were I live).

Hal Jordan wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 11:45 am
I hope it's a nice colour and not the usual 50 shades of residuals grey or - shudder - Crayon.

I like Crayon

Slick wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:11 pm

Biffer wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 11:36 am I drive a 1.0 litre VW Polo.

I'm 53 and it's my third car (Ford Fiesta, BMW Z3 were the other two). I've had it for nine years, it was two years old when I got it. Just starting to think about changing it now, probably for another Polo tbh, although if I move house and have a drive / garage to charge in I'll look at an EV. No hurry though, might be a couple more years. I really don't understand this obsession with changing your car every three years, and never owning the actual asset. Feels like a combination of vanity and being permanently in hock to finance companies because you want to drive something you can't actually afford to buy.

I've never been into cars and usually run them into the ground as well. In saying that, since I've been back in Scotland and we do a fair few miles going to the Highlands for walking etc I am getting a bit tired of being constantly worried about the thing giving up with the family in it. Every trip is quite stressful!

This is a concern of mine - my old Freelander got up to about 180k and the interior started smelling of part-burnt diesel so I thought it was time to swap it out.

When I was younger and had time/dexterity I'd do most of the running repairs myself*, but that is increasingly hard with kids - and it's just getting increasingly more difficult with modern cars. If someone else has the time to replace the diesel injector seals and track down and deal with fuel system leaks and fuel pump failures then I'm happy to pass it on to them, but I traded it in for a newer car without the need for ongoing fettling.

The cycle has now repeated and we're up to about 90k, so I want to replace it before things start going wrong.


* I once replaced the heater matrix on a MkII Golf GTi, I've still got the scars on my knuckles.

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:34 pm

This is a concern of mine - my old Freelander got up to about 180k

I traded it in for a newer car without the need for ongoing fettling.

The cycle has now repeated and we're up to about 90k, so I want to replace it before things start going wrong.

If reliability is your quest, then a new Land or Range Rover is not where you want to sink your cash. You're very unlikely to get halfway to 90k before it blows up.

Sandstorm wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:38 pm

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:34 pm

This is a concern of mine - my old Freelander got up to about 180k

I traded it in for a newer car without the need for ongoing fettling.

The cycle has now repeated and we're up to about 90k, so I want to replace it before things start going wrong.

If reliability is your quest, then a new Land or Range Rover is not where you want to sink your cash. You're very unlikely to get halfway to 90k before it blows up.

Mine have been very good, 180k for the first and a relatively painless 90k for the second, but we've now of course utterly jinxed it

laurent wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:12 pm When you see this you know we are doomed.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/11 ... -20-miles/

wasting everything

PS on cars I am 55 and never bought a new car
started with R5 then got a Fiat Punto (1st gen) then a C4 1st gen then anotherC4 II
not planning to buy another one for a good while longer and then that means likely a refurb electrical. (I barely use a tank of gas per month)

Electrical is problematic as I would not have a way to charge it at home. (on street parking were I live).

I've never bought a brand new car either.

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:54 pm
Mine have been very good, 180k for the first and a relatively painless 90k for the second, but we've now of course utterly jinxed it

You misunderstand me. All Rovers since 2020 have been awful for reliability. Mechanical and electrical quality is in the toilet. Avoid.

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:00 am

epwc wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:58 am There are bucket loads of smaller cars that would do that. I drove from Glasgow to Essex in a Qashqai in the storms last January without feeling like I needed something bigger/more powerful/more rugged.

As an ex-employee of Jaguar Land Rover, I respectfully disagree.

I'm a mechanic, long since lapsed. I did work on Landrover stuff around the 98-2000 period. Back then, the Freelander was a frippery that would burn clutches at the sight of wet grass, the RR was an overpriced box of ECUs waiting to stop communicating with each other while the Disco and Defender were competent off roaders not well favoured in Oz for serious off roading because of reputation.

I'm intrigued... why do you disagree? What's your backing argument?

Guy Smiley wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 4:42 pm

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:00 am

epwc wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:58 am There are bucket loads of smaller cars that would do that. I drove from Glasgow to Essex in a Qashqai in the storms last January without feeling like I needed something bigger/more powerful/more rugged.

As an ex-employee of Jaguar Land Rover, I respectfully disagree.

I'm a mechanic, long since lapsed. I did work on Landrover stuff around the 98-2000 period. Back then, the Freelander was a frippery that would burn clutches at the sight of wet grass, the RR was an overpriced box of ECUs waiting to stop communicating with each other while the Disco and Defender were competent off roaders not well favoured in Oz for serious off roading because of reputation.

I'm intrigued... why do you disagree? What's your backing argument?

That a LR isn't the same as a Qashqai? Most of the LRs have low transfers and locking centre diffs - they aren't just 4x4s for show, they are truly designed for off-road. My disco sport doesn't have the low transfer but does use a haldex which emulates both.

Agreed that the original Freelander was awful, just about every part of the drivetrain would explode (I think prop shafts were reported as one of many weaknesses, which is not a cheap repair), the Freelander 2 (eta - think it was called LR2 in Oz?) hugely better but really just a Ford truck at heart - and the diesel engine was ancient and pretty crude. The original defender wasn't reliable per se but pretty much every part could be repaired with simple tools and it's hugely capable off-road. It lost out to the Toyotas* on reliability and cost of parts.

Agreed about the top end RRs, although I'd highlight they perform well offroad even if they clearly won't ever be driven off-road, and there's a million and one things to go wrong with them. The blingy wheels and rubber band tyres won't help much, either.




*I never understood why JLR didn't make a pickup a la the Toyotas.

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 5:13 pm



*I never understood why JLR didn't make a pickup a la the Toyotas.

They did, I had a 109 Series 3 pickup which came with a detachable canvas roof, a work colleague had a 110 high capacity pick up (which really meant that the back gate was full width, as opposed to just the middle section, like the back door of the 110s)

Tichtheid wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 5:19 pm

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 5:13 pm



*I never understood why JLR didn't make a pickup a la the Toyotas.

They did, I had a 109 Series 3 pickup, a work colleague had a 110 high capacity pick up (which really meant that the back gate was full width, as opposed to just the middle section, like the back door of the 110s)

Sorry, I meant unibody, not a ladder chassis. Once the old defender was binned of there's nothing else in the range.

When they replaced the old Defender they didn't really develop a utilitarian vehicle. You can clean some old defender's interiors out with a hose, you'd probably not do that with a new defender.

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 5:22 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 5:19 pm

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 5:13 pm



*I never understood why JLR didn't make a pickup a la the Toyotas.

They did, I had a 109 Series 3 pickup, a work colleague had a 110 high capacity pick up (which really meant that the back gate was full width, as opposed to just the middle section, like the back door of the 110s)

Sorry, I meant unibody, not a ladder chassis. Once the old defender was binned of there's nothing else in the range.

When they replaced the old Defender they didn't really develop a utilitarian vehicle. You can clean some old defender's interiors out with a hose, you'd probably not do that with a new defender.

Ah right, gotcha.

My boss in France had an old Land Cruiser, like this, but not nearly as clean
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-vinta ... 92241.html

Sandstorm wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:33 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 11:45 am
I hope it's a nice colour and not the usual 50 shades of residuals grey or - shudder - Crayon.

I like Crayon

I always suspected you were a deviant, and now you have confirmed it.

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 5:13 pm

Guy Smiley wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 4:42 pm

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:00 am

As an ex-employee of Jaguar Land Rover, I respectfully disagree.

I'm a mechanic, long since lapsed. I did work on Landrover stuff around the 98-2000 period. Back then, the Freelander was a frippery that would burn clutches at the sight of wet grass, the RR was an overpriced box of ECUs waiting to stop communicating with each other while the Disco and Defender were competent off roaders not well favoured in Oz for serious off roading because of reputation.

I'm intrigued... why do you disagree? What's your backing argument?

That a LR isn't the same as a Qashqai? Most of the LRs have low transfers and locking centre diffs - they aren't just 4x4s for show, they are truly designed for off-road. My disco sport doesn't have the low transfer but does use a haldex which emulates both.

Agreed that the original Freelander was awful, just about every part of the drivetrain would explode (I think prop shafts were reported as one of many weaknesses, which is not a cheap repair), the Freelander 2 (eta - think it was called LR2 in Oz?) hugely better but really just a Ford truck at heart - and the diesel engine was ancient and pretty crude. The original defender wasn't reliable per se but pretty much every part could be repaired with simple tools and it's hugely capable off-road. It lost out to the Toyotas* on reliability and cost of parts.

Agreed about the top end RRs, although I'd highlight they perform well offroad even if they clearly won't ever be driven off-road, and there's a million and one things to go wrong with them. The blingy wheels and rubber band tyres won't help much, either.




*I never understood why JLR didn't make a pickup a la the Toyotas.

My mate inherited a few bob and decided to buy a high spec RR Sport as a treat to himself. He went for a one year old version from a RR dealer, it lasted a month before breaking down and was returned to dealer. They gave him a good deal on a replacement, that lasted 3 months before breaking down and returned. A third one appeared and he drove that happily for 10 months before it too went back to the dealer having been off the road for 'suspension issues' for 6 weeks! He has bought himself an Audi Q5 and is delighted with it and has vowed never to touch a RR/LR ever again.

Goodbye biosphere I guess. Biden's tentative steps into a green energy are now replaced with 'drill, baby, drill' and climate change conspiracy theory.

Any Land Rover out of the Ford period was a horror story for reliability. I have always used independent LR specialists and when I had a Disco 3 they would tell me what was going wrong next and roughly when I could expect it. Notoriously many of the parts were just not good enough and so gave up at a similar age / wear rate. There were for example quite few parts on my Disco 3 that were common with the XC90. They may have been fine in the XC90 but were inadequate for the heavier vehicle used in more challenging environments. The Disco 4 was a quantum leap forward as were apparently other models from the same period.

Then LR lost the plot again and they became unreliable. LR have taken heed and worked on it. In a recent reliability survey by WhatCar the new Defender and RR Sport were amongst the most reliable vehicles. Overall JLR as a brand scored better than before but were still poor, but it was the older models dragging them down with the newer ones being decent to good.

As an aside, after my experience with the Disco 3, there was no way I was buying another LR. I test drove a variety of vehicles from Audi Q7, to Toyota Land Cruiser and everything inbetween. I needed to hire a 4x4 and was given a Disco 4. I decided to order a Disco within a few hundred yards it was so superior to anything else I'd tried. That's the big thing with LR, if you need a vehicle with the capabilities they have, there is just nothing as good. 130k miles later I'm still as happy as Larry. The independent specialist I use has exactly the same model as his own vehicle. He makes the point that as long as you keep on top of the (expensive) running costs and maintain them properly they will last longer than I will.

weegie01 wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:42 am Any Land Rover out of the Ford period was a horror story for reliability. I have always used independent LR specialists and when I had a Disco 3 they would tell what was going wrong next and roughly when I could expect it. Notoriously many of the parts were just not good enough and so gave up at a similar age / wear rate. There were for example quite few parts on my Disco 3 that were common with the XC90. They may have been fine in the XC90 but were inadequate for the heavier vehicle used in more challenging environments. The Disco 4 was a quantum leap forward as were apparently other models from the same period.

Then LR lost the plot again and they became unreliable. LR have taken heed and worked on it. In a recent reliability survey by WhatCar the new Defender and RR Sport were amongst the most reliable vehicles. Overall JLR as a brand scored better than before but were still poor, but it was the older models dragging them down with the newer ones being decent to good.

I know feck all about the mechanics of cars but for a car designed to be driven up Ben Nevis all three of my mates cars seemed to struggle with Aberdeen in the winter and the speed bumps at Waitrose! The cost of repairs and labour were just silly as well. The RR Sport was just a money pit and completely unreliable. Audi although expensive to buy seems far more reliable so far.

dpedin wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:52 amI know feck all about the mechanics of cars but for a car designed to be driven up Ben Nevis all three of my mates cars seemed to struggle with Aberdeen in the winter and the speed bumps at Waitrose! The cost of repairs and labour were just silly as well. The RR Sport was just a money pit and completely unreliable. Audi although expensive to buy seems far more reliable so far.

I'm not disputing that many LR's were unreliable, just pointing out that LR are working on it and have improved.

sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:20 am Goodbye biosphere I guess. Biden's tentative steps into a green energy are now replaced with 'drill, baby, drill' and climate change conspiracy theory.

I'm hoping money talks; notoriously socially concious corporate US is slapping solar panels on warehouses and pushing energy efficiency everywhere because it saves them money.

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:10 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:20 am Goodbye biosphere I guess. Biden's tentative steps into a green energy are now replaced with 'drill, baby, drill' and climate change conspiracy theory.

I'm hoping money talks; notoriously socially concious corporate US is slapping solar panels on warehouses and pushing energy efficiency everywhere because it saves them money.

Money definitely talks look at Texas with solar and wind energy.

Bit of positive news
Total net greenhouse gas emissions in the European Union dropped by 8% last year, new figures reveal, meaning that greenhouse gas pollution in the 27-country bloc is now 37% below 1990 levels.

https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/i ... ion-trends

Guy Smiley wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 4:42 pm

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:00 am

epwc wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:58 am There are bucket loads of smaller cars that would do that. I drove from Glasgow to Essex in a Qashqai in the storms last January without feeling like I needed something bigger/more powerful/more rugged.

As an ex-employee of Jaguar Land Rover, I respectfully disagree.

I'm a mechanic, long since lapsed. I did work on Landrover stuff around the 98-2000 period. Back then, the Freelander was a frippery that would burn clutches at the sight of wet grass, the RR was an overpriced box of ECUs waiting to stop communicating with each other while the Disco and Defender were competent off roaders not well favoured in Oz for serious off roading because of reputation.

I'm intrigued... why do you disagree? What's your backing argument?

I appreciate the answer you gave to my question... but you missed my point, I think. I refer you back to what epwc has said here and your direct response. I know a Qashgai isn't a LR. I want to know why you disagree with him.

Guy Smiley wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:13 pm

Guy Smiley wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 4:42 pm

inactionman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:00 am

As an ex-employee of Jaguar Land Rover, I respectfully disagree.

I'm a mechanic, long since lapsed. I did work on Landrover stuff around the 98-2000 period. Back then, the Freelander was a frippery that would burn clutches at the sight of wet grass, the RR was an overpriced box of ECUs waiting to stop communicating with each other while the Disco and Defender were competent off roaders not well favoured in Oz for serious off roading because of reputation.

I'm intrigued... why do you disagree? What's your backing argument?

I appreciate the answer you gave to my question... but you missed my point, I think. I refer you back to what epwc has said here and your direct response. I know a Qashgai isn't a LR. I want to know why you disagree with him.

I'm lost. That was what I disagreed with him about - A LR is one thing that has one set of capabilities, a Qashqai has another, and they're not directly interchangeable. What exactly are you asking?

I never said they were directly interchangeable

epwc wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:26 pm I never said they were directly interchangeable

Then we're agreeing

To be honest unless you are pulling an Ifor Williams trailer with a few ewes or a bullock, you don't really need a Disco or its like on the road. If you are pulling trailers or working off-road then yes, but then a tractor is always a better option.

For most icy roads a smaller vehicle will do the job. When I lived in the Pyrenees the locals didn't use Chelsea tractors in the winter, we put snow tyres on the car (stored in the garage over the summer), we used chains when called for, and back then we got heavy snow and ice there.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 9:48 pm To be honest unless you are pulling an Ifor Williams trailer with a few ewes or a bullock, you don't really need a Disco or its like on the road. If you are pulling trailers or working off-road then yes, but then a tractor is always a better option.

For most icy roads a smaller vehicle will do the job. When I lived in the Pyrenees the locals didn't use Chelsea tractors in the winter, we put snow tyres on the car (stored in the garage over the summer), we used chains when called for, and back then we got heavy snow and ice there.

In a lot of European countries it's required to change tyres for winter. You can't use chains on anything other than compacted snow or ice - we thankfully don't really get that weather here.

A 4x4 with any degree of sophistication to the drive train will be better than most saloons or hatchbacks (noting that cars such as volvo 4WDs and some Audis and VW 4motions use a very handy drive system and I'm not referring to them here).

inactionman wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:10 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 9:48 pm To be honest unless you are pulling an Ifor Williams trailer with a few ewes or a bullock, you don't really need a Disco or its like on the road. If you are pulling trailers or working off-road then yes, but then a tractor is always a better option.

For most icy roads a smaller vehicle will do the job. When I lived in the Pyrenees the locals didn't use Chelsea tractors in the winter, we put snow tyres on the car (stored in the garage over the summer), we used chains when called for, and back then we got heavy snow and ice there.

In a lot of European countries it's required to change tyres for winter. You can't use chains on anything other than compacted snow or ice - we thankfully don't really get that weather here.

A 4x4 with any degree of sophistication to the drive train will be better than most saloons or hatchbacks (noting that cars such as volvo 4WDs and some Audis and VW 4motions use a very handy drive system and I'm not referring to them here).

The irony can't be lost here - a particular type of personal vehicle is playing its part in making itself completely unnecessary as the world heats up, but still it's these vehicles we strive for, the ones advertised driving over snowy landscapes etc.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:30 pm

inactionman wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:10 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 9:48 pm To be honest unless you are pulling an Ifor Williams trailer with a few ewes or a bullock, you don't really need a Disco or its like on the road. If you are pulling trailers or working off-road then yes, but then a tractor is always a better option.

For most icy roads a smaller vehicle will do the job. When I lived in the Pyrenees the locals didn't use Chelsea tractors in the winter, we put snow tyres on the car (stored in the garage over the summer), we used chains when called for, and back then we got heavy snow and ice there.

In a lot of European countries it's required to change tyres for winter. You can't use chains on anything other than compacted snow or ice - we thankfully don't really get that weather here.

A 4x4 with any degree of sophistication to the drive train will be better than most saloons or hatchbacks (noting that cars such as volvo 4WDs and some Audis and VW 4motions use a very handy drive system and I'm not referring to them here).

The irony can't be lost here - a particular type of personal vehicle is playing its part in making itself completely unnecessary as the world heats up, but still it's these vehicles we strive for, the ones advertised driving over snowy landscapes etc.

You're projecting a bit here, to put it mildly.

inactionman wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:34 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:30 pm

inactionman wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:10 pm

In a lot of European countries it's required to change tyres for winter. You can't use chains on anything other than compacted snow or ice - we thankfully don't really get that weather here.

A 4x4 with any degree of sophistication to the drive train will be better than most saloons or hatchbacks (noting that cars such as volvo 4WDs and some Audis and VW 4motions use a very handy drive system and I'm not referring to them here).

The irony can't be lost here - a particular type of personal vehicle is playing its part in making itself completely unnecessary as the world heats up, but still it's these vehicles we strive for, the ones advertised driving over snowy landscapes etc.

You're projecting a bit here, to put it mildly.

I'm what?

I have no idea what you mean.

We don't have frozen roads like we used to, if southern Scotland sees snow this winter it will be for days rather than the months of my youth.

Emissions and the manufacture of huge 4x4s are part of the personal input to climate change

What part of that is projection?