NPR

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:07 am Otago Highlanders seems a bizarre point of comparison given they're a team in a part of the world in part founded by Highland emigrants and play in a city called Dunedin ffs.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:47 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:40 pm

lemonhead wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:12 pm

Let he who is without sin...

Nobody asked the bloody wasps, did they now?

I'm not sure if the wasps would take offence, but my eyes certainly do.

I'm surprised Exeter don't just switch their iconography to an old English/early Britannic tribal chief - they could be truly woke and go for Boadicea.

Plenty of fun and games to be had with that, they could wheel the team out in chariots and grow long straggly beards and not wash. Although we perhaps wouldn't want to run the risk of accusations of appropriation from the Welsh. Looking at the barnets on show in the first XV they'd be all over the matted dreads look.

Boudicca was an Essex girl.

Sinkers wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:16 pm I posted you all a fucking map on the previous page - while you were all still tucked up in bed

Boudicca was a queen of the Iceni supposedly - ie Norfolk. Although she did fuck up colchester pretty bad on her way to London

In Roman times Exeter was a actually the capital of the Dumnonii kingdom and later it was maybe Tintagel.

Exeter was also part of Anglo Saxon Wessex I think.

So they’ve got two really good choices closer to home than red indians

yermum wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:05 am Curious that you don't view the statutes of Iona as being persecution of Highland culture.

inactionman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:37 pm

Sinkers wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:16 pm I posted you all a fucking map on the previous page - while you were all still tucked up in bed

Boudicca was a queen of the Iceni supposedly - ie Norfolk. Although she did fuck up colchester pretty bad on her way to London

In Roman times Exeter was a actually the capital of the Dumnonii kingdom and later it was maybe Tintagel.

Exeter was also part of Anglo Saxon Wessex I think.

So they’ve got two really good choices closer to home than red indians

I was making a point about woke, and having a female chief.

I was probably being far too clever for my own good.

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:05 pm

yermum wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:05 am Curious that you don't view the statutes of Iona as being persecution of Highland culture.

Or kids being beaten at school for speaking gaelic (in the 20th century).

Dogbert wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:45 pm I actually thought the whole beating kids af school for speaking Gaelic was an urban myth , until my father recounted himself being beaten at Boroughmuir in the 1920's

Alongside Tony Rowe’s office desk in Exeter sits a black box-file stuffed with letters. “See that there,” he says, slapping it with his right hand. “That’s 10,000 people who wrote in support two years ago. There were 6,000 against it but I even have correspondence in support of us from people who represent Native American tribes. They’re warriors and we admire their guts and determination. We modelled ourselves on them.”

Welcome to the debate currently swirling around the saloons of Devon and beyond. This week’s strong statement from Wasps, urging the Rugby Football Union to consider a ban on fans wearing Native American headdresses and standing firm against cultural appropriation – “the act of taking or using things from a culture that is not your own” – has further upped the ante and ruffled feathers at Sandy Park. If the Chiefs’ visit to Coventry promises much on the field, it could be even livelier in the boardroom.

It is certainly not how Rowe wanted to mark either this weekend’s first anniversary of one of club rugby’s all-time great achievements or Exeter RFC’s 150 years of existence. If it feels longer than 12 months since once-homely Exeter brought home the European Champions Cup it is because so much else has happened. Covid-19, financial headaches, stadium building delays, angry petitions: the romantic glow that once clung to Exeter’s every move is in danger of disappearing.

As their director of rugby, Rob Baxter, observed this week, there are far more pressing worldwide issues just now than a rugby club badge. But try telling that to the vocal dissenters who accuse Exeter and Rowe of being, at best, tone deaf to shifting modern attitudes. Having never sought a dull life – he was once a British powerboating champion while his real father (whom he never knew) was a lion tamer and a ringmaster with Billy Smart’s Circus – the Exeter chairman is enjoying scant respite in his 70s.

His argument is that the word “Chiefs” has long been synonymous with the club’s first team – “We’ve been known as Exeter Chiefs for well over a century … we didn’t create the name just for branding” – but the distinctive big chief motif, in place since 1999, is more problematic. What happens, furthermore, if a world club championship starts in 2024 and the global focus intensifies further?

The debate now extends way beyond fancy dress “war bonnets” or toy inflatable tomahawks. Differing worldviews, pot-stirring, wilful intransigence or virtue signalling? Rowe feels the “do-gooders” are overthinking it. “There’s nothing racist about it. We’re not trying to belittle the image or ancestry of anyone. We want to be like those Indian chiefs. On that basis, if I go to church on Sunday and praise God am I doing something wrong? Are all these people really getting upset in North America? I don’t quite believe that. At the end of the day, what is the real harm? If you take 100 people and ask them to draw you a picture of a chief, what are they going to draw? They’re going to draw you a Native American chief.”

Rowe, as it happens, has always had an interest in history. “I’m a historian. It was my best subject at school … I was crap at everything else.” He is rather less of a fan of what he sees as modern revisionism. “People want to try and change history. It’s like when they pulled down the statue in Bristol. You can’t paint over history and pretend it didn’t happen.”

But for those still hoping that Exeter will belatedly take a lead from American sport where the Washington Redskins, among others, have renamed themselves, here is a significant newsflash. Rowe says that club members will be invited to have their say at the club’s scheduled AGM on 24 November.

“Although I run what I jokingly call a democratic dictatorship, I do listen to people. If the membership says we have got to change, I will change. Money doesn’t come into it at all.” What does he think the outcome will be? “I’ve got a sense that the members are going to tell me to stay where I am. I’ve had a lot of correspondence from a lot of supporters.” OK, so what about the players? Are they all onside? “I have never had one of my current or past players ever say to me they have a problem calling themselves an Exeter Chief or wearing the kit.”

This is perhaps not the moment to glance at the wall behind Rowe’s desk and see a carving of a Native American chief, complete with Exeter-themed face paint, staring back. Visitors also still walk past a totem pole in reception and the post-match Wigwam bar does not commemorate Devon’s hairpiece wearers. Harmless fun or crassly offensive?

What no one disputes is Rowe’s colossal contribution to the club since he first became a sponsor in 1993. Notwithstanding the Baxter family, Exeter’s rise would not have happened without him. Which is why he remains bitter about recent media stories seeking to conflate the lack of a new main shirt sponsor – another of Rowe’s companies has since filled the breach – with the branding furore. “I don’t think you’re in a very nice profession. There are a lot of people who just want to talk about the crap and the shit. They don’t want to talk about the positive things in life.”

He also reckons outsiders have underestimated the stress of keeping afloat a business, including a new women’s squad, in the era of Covid. “We were haemorrhaging £1m a month,” says Rowe. “In the year to June 2020 we lost £2.26m. We haven’t had the accounts for 2020-21 yet but I wouldn’t mind betting we’re going to lose another £8-9m. I am surprised a couple of the other clubs are still here. The owners and chairmen don’t get a lot of credit and we’re always getting knocked but they’re the people having to put their hands in their pockets.”

Even fewer would have had a pacemaker fitted during the week of Exeter’s European triumph, been discharged from hospital on game day to rush up to Bristol and still shared full-on bear hugs with his players after the final whistle. “There’s a picture of me doubled over after Stuart Hogg slapped me on the chest … it wasn’t pleasure, it was pain.”

Happier times all round, unlike this week’s diplomatic wasps’ nest. With hindsight, would he have done anything differently? The riposte is instant: “I’ve no regrets about anything.” Once Rowe digs in his heels, he is an extremely hard man to shift.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:32 pm Tony Rower decides to add his tuppence

Alongside Tony Rowe’s office desk in Exeter sits a black box-file stuffed with letters. “See that there,” he says, slapping it with his right hand. “That’s 10,000 people who wrote in support two years ago. There were 6,000 against it but I even have correspondence in support of us from people who represent Native American tribes. They’re warriors and we admire their guts and determination. We modelled ourselves on them.”

Welcome to the debate currently swirling around the saloons of Devon and beyond. This week’s strong statement from Wasps, urging the Rugby Football Union to consider a ban on fans wearing Native American headdresses and standing firm against cultural appropriation – “the act of taking or using things from a culture that is not your own” – has further upped the ante and ruffled feathers at Sandy Park. If the Chiefs’ visit to Coventry promises much on the field, it could be even livelier in the boardroom.

It is certainly not how Rowe wanted to mark either this weekend’s first anniversary of one of club rugby’s all-time great achievements or Exeter RFC’s 150 years of existence. If it feels longer than 12 months since once-homely Exeter brought home the European Champions Cup it is because so much else has happened. Covid-19, financial headaches, stadium building delays, angry petitions: the romantic glow that once clung to Exeter’s every move is in danger of disappearing.

As their director of rugby, Rob Baxter, observed this week, there are far more pressing worldwide issues just now than a rugby club badge. But try telling that to the vocal dissenters who accuse Exeter and Rowe of being, at best, tone deaf to shifting modern attitudes. Having never sought a dull life – he was once a British powerboating champion while his real father (whom he never knew) was a lion tamer and a ringmaster with Billy Smart’s Circus – the Exeter chairman is enjoying scant respite in his 70s.

His argument is that the word “Chiefs” has long been synonymous with the club’s first team – “We’ve been known as Exeter Chiefs for well over a century … we didn’t create the name just for branding” – but the distinctive big chief motif, in place since 1999, is more problematic. What happens, furthermore, if a world club championship starts in 2024 and the global focus intensifies further?

The debate now extends way beyond fancy dress “war bonnets” or toy inflatable tomahawks. Differing worldviews, pot-stirring, wilful intransigence or virtue signalling? Rowe feels the “do-gooders” are overthinking it. “There’s nothing racist about it. We’re not trying to belittle the image or ancestry of anyone. We want to be like those Indian chiefs. On that basis, if I go to church on Sunday and praise God am I doing something wrong? Are all these people really getting upset in North America? I don’t quite believe that. At the end of the day, what is the real harm? If you take 100 people and ask them to draw you a picture of a chief, what are they going to draw? They’re going to draw you a Native American chief.”

Rowe, as it happens, has always had an interest in history. “I’m a historian. It was my best subject at school … I was crap at everything else.” He is rather less of a fan of what he sees as modern revisionism. “People want to try and change history. It’s like when they pulled down the statue in Bristol. You can’t paint over history and pretend it didn’t happen.”

But for those still hoping that Exeter will belatedly take a lead from American sport where the Washington Redskins, among others, have renamed themselves, here is a significant newsflash. Rowe says that club members will be invited to have their say at the club’s scheduled AGM on 24 November.

“Although I run what I jokingly call a democratic dictatorship, I do listen to people. If the membership says we have got to change, I will change. Money doesn’t come into it at all.” What does he think the outcome will be? “I’ve got a sense that the members are going to tell me to stay where I am. I’ve had a lot of correspondence from a lot of supporters.” OK, so what about the players? Are they all onside? “I have never had one of my current or past players ever say to me they have a problem calling themselves an Exeter Chief or wearing the kit.”

This is perhaps not the moment to glance at the wall behind Rowe’s desk and see a carving of a Native American chief, complete with Exeter-themed face paint, staring back. Visitors also still walk past a totem pole in reception and the post-match Wigwam bar does not commemorate Devon’s hairpiece wearers. Harmless fun or crassly offensive?

What no one disputes is Rowe’s colossal contribution to the club since he first became a sponsor in 1993. Notwithstanding the Baxter family, Exeter’s rise would not have happened without him. Which is why he remains bitter about recent media stories seeking to conflate the lack of a new main shirt sponsor – another of Rowe’s companies has since filled the breach – with the branding furore. “I don’t think you’re in a very nice profession. There are a lot of people who just want to talk about the crap and the shit. They don’t want to talk about the positive things in life.”

He also reckons outsiders have underestimated the stress of keeping afloat a business, including a new women’s squad, in the era of Covid. “We were haemorrhaging £1m a month,” says Rowe. “In the year to June 2020 we lost £2.26m. We haven’t had the accounts for 2020-21 yet but I wouldn’t mind betting we’re going to lose another £8-9m. I am surprised a couple of the other clubs are still here. The owners and chairmen don’t get a lot of credit and we’re always getting knocked but they’re the people having to put their hands in their pockets.”

Even fewer would have had a pacemaker fitted during the week of Exeter’s European triumph, been discharged from hospital on game day to rush up to Bristol and still shared full-on bear hugs with his players after the final whistle. “There’s a picture of me doubled over after Stuart Hogg slapped me on the chest … it wasn’t pleasure, it was pain.”

Happier times all round, unlike this week’s diplomatic wasps’ nest. With hindsight, would he have done anything differently? The riposte is instant: “I’ve no regrets about anything.” Once Rowe digs in his heels, he is an extremely hard man to shift.

Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:34 pm So after asking Rowe to stop using caricatures depicting American Indians as noble savages, Rowe retorts that they're respecting the fact that these people are noble savages, and he doesn't see what's wrong with that....

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:48 pm I would be very interested to see those letters of his. In addition to the various groups who've denounced Yank sport teams like the (now former) Washington Redskins or the general principle of appropriating native culture there are several who've given quotes to Exeter Chiefs For Change specifically about the Exeter situation.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:42 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:34 pm So after asking Rowe to stop using caricatures depicting American Indians as noble savages, Rowe retorts that they're respecting the fact that these people are noble savages, and he doesn't see what's wrong with that....

He does add that he has letters from members of the Native American population saying they are ok with it. I didn't see where he described them as 'noble savages', I must have missed that bit.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:42 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:34 pm So after asking Rowe to stop using caricatures depicting American Indians as noble savages, Rowe retorts that they're respecting the fact that these people are noble savages, and he doesn't see what's wrong with that....

He does add that he has letters from members of the Native American population saying they are ok with it. I didn't see where he described them as 'noble savages', I must have missed that bit.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:51 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:42 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:34 pm So after asking Rowe to stop using caricatures depicting American Indians as noble savages, Rowe retorts that they're respecting the fact that these people are noble savages, and he doesn't see what's wrong with that....

He does add that he has letters from members of the Native American population saying they are ok with it. I didn't see where he described them as 'noble savages', I must have missed that bit.

Did Tony show the letters to the interviewer ?

Did he verify that it actually came from a Native American ?...

And does Tony consider a single letter from a single unconfirmed source sufficient justification for ignoring the general case ?

..

So if he got; say five letters from, "Native Americans", who called his teams brand a despicable, & racist characterization; would he drop the whole bullshit ?

Niegs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:59 am

TL:DR ... some of the Indigenous people behind the defence of such things are potentially in it for the money fans are happy to send them for support or do genuinely feel that it's not such a bad thing, but don't necessarily have the full support of their communities.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:31 pm cultures that can live with caricatures of them are more robust and enduring...

...embrace the caricature, it shows that you mean something outside of your own environment - that's priceless. Without it, you're forgotten about.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:11 am

Niegs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:59 am

TL:DR ... some of the Indigenous people behind the defence of such things are potentially in it for the money fans are happy to send them for support or do genuinely feel that it's not such a bad thing, but don't necessarily have the full support of their communities.

I wrote a post akin to that weeks ago...

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:31 pm cultures that can live with caricatures of them are more robust and enduring...

...embrace the caricature, it shows that you mean something outside of your own environment - that's priceless. Without it, you're forgotten about.

Taking vicarious offence at things is a full-time occupation for many people nowadays.

Toga parties will be next on the hitlist.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:35 pm I suspect this really all comes down to just paying a fee to use the Chief image. If they did that then Exeter Chiefs could get an officially authorised stamp of approval from the native American people in the USA (who haven't got a clue where Exeter is). I doubt that would appease the white middle-class millennials in Warwickshire but it would at least perhaps reframe the outrage properly, i.e Exeter are getting a brand for free.

Niegs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:51 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:35 pm I suspect this really all comes down to just paying a fee to use the Chief image. If they did that then Exeter Chiefs could get an officially authorised stamp of approval from the native American people in the USA (who haven't got a clue where Exeter is). I doubt that would appease the white middle-class millennials in Warwickshire but it would at least perhaps reframe the outrage properly, i.e Exeter are getting a brand for free.

How pathetic would that be for both sides? Exeter buying favour and a tribe/band selling out their soul to a foreign entity that’s shown it doesn’t care … if they did, I’d expect that it’d mostly serve to highlight that they’re so desperate for money due to poor living / economic conditions on their reserve. A whole other issue, but what self respecting sports team would want to be part of that?

Niegs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:51 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:35 pm I suspect this really all comes down to just paying a fee to use the Chief image. If they did that then Exeter Chiefs could get an officially authorised stamp of approval from the native American people in the USA (who haven't got a clue where Exeter is). I doubt that would appease the white middle-class millennials in Warwickshire but it would at least perhaps reframe the outrage properly, i.e Exeter are getting a brand for free.

How pathetic would that be for both sides? Exeter buying favour and a tribe/band selling out their soul to a foreign entity that’s shown it doesn’t care … if they did, I’d expect that it’d mostly serve to highlight that they’re so desperate for money due to poor living / economic conditions on their reserve. A whole other issue, but what self respecting sports team would want to be part of that?

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:33 pm Rugby Tonight with some actual Native American's discussing why Exeter's branding is offensive. Very few people should be able to claim it doesn't matter or they don't know why it's inappropriate now.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:37 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:33 pm Rugby Tonight with some actual Native American's discussing why Exeter's branding is offensive. Very few people should be able to claim it doesn't matter or they don't know why it's inappropriate now.

I didn't get to watch Rugby Tonight.

What were the reasons given?

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:44 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:37 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:33 pm Rugby Tonight with some actual Native American's discussing why Exeter's branding is offensive. Very few people should be able to claim it doesn't matter or they don't know why it's inappropriate now.

I didn't get to watch Rugby Tonight.

What were the reasons given?

Same ones that have been repeated in here multiple times but with a bit more detail and from the mouths of people whose opinions on it matter. Head dresses and warpaint on non-Native Americans is the equivalent to stolen valour and sacrilige given how they are obtained by and what they represent to Native people. Chants are generally used in specific rituals and ceremonies, so to have a made up one for a sporting event is also bordering on sacrilege and is certainly insulting.

Using a caricatured composite image of a generic Native American is reductive and an insult to the 600+ distinct tribes. It's inappropriate and offensive for non-Native Americans to appropriate the imagery even if the decision was made from a place of benign ignorance.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:08 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:44 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:37 pm

I didn't get to watch Rugby Tonight.

What were the reasons given?

Same ones that have been repeated in here multiple times but with a bit more detail and from the mouths of people whose opinions on it matter. Head dresses and warpaint on non-Native Americans is the equivalent to stolen valour and sacrilige given how they are obtained by and what they represent to Native people. Chants are generally used in specific rituals and ceremonies, so to have a made up one for a sporting event is also bordering on sacrilege and is certainly insulting.

Using a caricatured composite image of a generic Native American is reductive and an insult to the 600+ distinct tribes. It's inappropriate and offensive for non-Native Americans to appropriate the imagery even if the decision was made from a place of benign ignorance.

I'm assuming that BT didn't get any representation from native Americans who don't mind to comment as part of the discussion?

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:26 am It's not a ridiculous or stupid response. If BT are going to use precious broadcast time to address something that really isn't the biggest story in English rugby then at least do it properly.

And to your Dolly Parton quote, perhaps try this Stephen Fry quote (for balance of course...);

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:22 am I'm surprised the imagery is still a thing. I would have thought a Exeter team, being proud of being local would and should have picked something local to them for their brand. It was a relatively recent brand creation wasn't it. Smacks of hiring a bad American/americanised PR firm or consultant on it. I always thought the Native American imagery was very cheesy and at odds with the club and regions identity.

Regardless they should see that this is an opportunity to pick something more appropriate and true to the club, it's obvious that this will rumble on and on. They may as well save what good faith they have and change the image, even if they make it a case of phasing it out over time.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:44 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:37 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:33 pm Rugby Tonight with some actual Native American's discussing why Exeter's branding is offensive. Very few people should be able to claim it doesn't matter or they don't know why it's inappropriate now.

I didn't get to watch Rugby Tonight.

What were the reasons given?

Same ones that have been repeated in here multiple times but with a bit more detail and from the mouths of people whose opinions on it matter. Head dresses and warpaint on non-Native Americans is the equivalent to stolen valour and sacrilige given how they are obtained by and what they represent to Native people. Chants are generally used in specific rituals and ceremonies, so to have a made up one for a sporting event is also bordering on sacrilege and is certainly insulting.

Using a caricatured composite image of a generic Native American is reductive and an insult to the 600+ distinct tribes. It's inappropriate and offensive for non-Native Americans to appropriate the imagery even if the decision was made from a place of benign ignorance.