The term "try" comes from "try at goal", signifying that grounding the ball originally only gave the attacking team the opportunity to try to score with a kick at goal.
In terms of that I believe a charge-down is still part of the game.
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:05 am
by handyman
Sards wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:59 am
Noone cares how Rassie has aged
Sards wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:59 am
Noone cares how Rassie has aged
Time has that effect on people.
Rassie has long-term illness called GPA. Granulomatosis with polyangiitis (GPA) is a rare disorder in which blood vessels become inflamed. This leads to damage in major organs of the body. It was formerly known as Wegener's granulomatosis.
Only from your point of view. The charge down can only begin once the kickers starts his movement, crucially in any direction. Ramos merely lifts his right heel whilst setting his start position and makes no attempt to move. 99 times out of a 100 that's getting retaken but O'keefe had shit the bed after 5 minutes.
I disagree. Ramos lifts his foot bringing it inwards. That's when Kobe takes off and that's Ramos starting his movement setting up his step forward. As you said, it's in any direction. I still think the charge down is good.
Compare that to the way Cruden used to take his kicks which confused a lot of the opposition. He'd rise on both his toes, settle down, and then start his movement - players would charge on the rise... which caught them out because he hadn't started actually moving.
It is horrifically open to interpretation. I'm trying to remember which kicker starts by virtually running on the spot for a couple of seconds, by your interpretation he should be getting charged down every kick. I think as others have said it's a bullshit rule and the kicker should just be left to get on with the kick with in allotted time.
Yep. This.
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:41 am
by Plim
Bloutoria wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:15 am
If I may...
I think the French were hard done by their own crowd. There I said it.
They were so over the top booing and whistling that the referee started over compensating a bit. Plus this:
11.3 A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.
11.4 It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
What other coach would be able to realise that the ball must be knocked forward and probably (foil hat on) asked for a clarification before the match, just to be sure the ref was also aware?
I’d do away with the conversion charge down. And I’d also make deliberate knock-ons much less likely to be awarded, leaving only the most blatant examples.
Most deliberate knock-ons are defenders reaching out instinctively to try to catch the ball. It may be that a player would be unlikely to catch the ball but that doesn’t make it intentional.
It’s also a penalty for a deliberate forward pass. You never see a pen for that. Why is an over-optimistic pass not deliberate but an over-optimistic catch attempt (“reasonable expectation”) is?
I can see the purpose as being to favour the team in possession. But the penalty is too harsh in too many cases against players trying to intercept, often instinctively.
Flockwitt wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:13 pm
The video I've seen of it, Kobe's legal. Ramos lifts his foot slightly early, which is his mistake, as soon as his foot leaves the ground Kobe's allowed to go. I'd like to see the video that has convinced our other pundits.
I think so too, here is the video. nothing to complain about really
Only from your point of view. The charge down can only begin once the kickers starts his movement, crucially in any direction. Ramos merely lifts his right heel whilst setting his start position and makes no attempt to move. 99 times out of a 100 that's getting retaken but O'keefe had shit the bed after 5 minutes.
Kolbe and Ramos were teammates at Toulouse for 4 seasons. Kolbe knew exactly what Ramos' routine was and exactly when he could go.
Bloutoria wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:15 am
If I may...
I think the French were hard done by their own crowd. There I said it.
They were so over the top booing and whistling that the referee started over compensating a bit. Plus this:
11.3 A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.
11.4 It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
What other coach would be able to realise that the ball must be knocked forward and probably (foil hat on) asked for a clarification before the match, just to be sure the ref was also aware?
I’d do away with the conversion charge down. And I’d also make deliberate knock-ons much less likely to be awarded, leaving only the most blatant examples.
Most deliberate knock-ons are defenders reaching out instinctively to try to catch the ball. It may be that a player would be unlikely to catch the ball but that doesn’t make it intentional.
It’s also a penalty for a deliberate forward pass. You never see a pen for that. Why is an over-optimistic pass not deliberate but an over-optimistic catch attempt (“reasonable expectation”) is?
I can see the purpose as being to favour the team in possession. But the penalty is too harsh in too many cases against players trying to intercept, often instinctively.
I could not agree more on both statements. I have that reflexive actions can result in a yellow card. It should be a scrum only. If an attacker leaves a pass so late that it can be knocked down or almost intercepted, they should be punished and not rewarded.
We need to start removing silly little laws that are open to interpretation and overcomplicate out game. We can easily start with conversion chargedowns and "deliberate" knock-ons.
Sards wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:59 am
Noone cares how Rassie has aged
Time has that effect on people.
Rassie has long-term illness called GPA. Granulomatosis with polyangiitis (GPA) is a rare disorder in which blood vessels become inflamed. This leads to damage in major organs of the body. It was formerly known as Wegener's granulomatosis.
Didn't know about that. Rassie is a fighter, hopefully the illness won't limit him too much.
Flockwitt wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:13 pm
The video I've seen of it, Kobe's legal. Ramos lifts his foot slightly early, which is his mistake, as soon as his foot leaves the ground Kobe's allowed to go. I'd like to see the video that has convinced our other pundits.
I think so too, here is the video. nothing to complain about really
Only from your point of view. The charge down can only begin once the kickers starts his movement, crucially in any direction. Ramos merely lifts his right heel whilst setting his start position and makes no attempt to move. 99 times out of a 100 that's getting retaken but O'keefe had shit the bed after 5 minutes.
I said right at the start you could almost hear panic in O'Keefe's voice after five minutes, he was bewildered by the pace the two teams had come out at.
Only from your point of view. The charge down can only begin once the kickers starts his movement, crucially in any direction. Ramos merely lifts his right heel whilst setting his start position and makes no attempt to move. 99 times out of a 100 that's getting retaken but O'keefe had shit the bed after 5 minutes.
Kolbe and Ramos were teammates at Toulouse for 4 seasons. Kolbe knew exactly what Ramos' routine was and exactly when he could go.
That charge down was a mentally breakdown. I always rate Ramos, first time I saw him struggling. Pretty much the same as Hugo Keenans performance against the All Blacks. Libbok would not mind being charge down, he probably miss his kick anyway.
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:02 am
by Insane_Homer
Rassie explains the scrum from the mark this morning.
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:24 am
by boere wors
Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:02 am
Rassie explains the scrum from the mark this morning.
Wondered about that, thanks for the link. Interesting.
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:25 am
by assfly
Basically make the fatties run across the field
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:28 am
by Sandstorm
Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:02 am
Rassie explains the scrum from the mark this morning.
He's a fucking tool-bag, but his analysis of other teams is second-to-none. Possibly the best Rugby coach we've ever seen #big call
Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:02 am
Rassie explains the scrum from the mark this morning.
He's a fucking tool-bag, but his analysis of other teams is second-to-none. Possibly the best Rugby coach we've ever seen #big call
Yeah, even as someone who hated his behaviour during and after the Lions tour, I've no problem acknowledging that he's top notch tactically. Good to to have innovators in the sport too.
Bloutoria wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:15 am
If I may...
I think the French were hard done by their own crowd. There I said it.
They were so over the top booing and whistling that the referee started over compensating a bit. Plus this:
11.3 A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.
11.4 It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
What other coach would be able to realise that the ball must be knocked forward and probably (foil hat on) asked for a clarification before the match, just to be sure the ref was also aware?
I’d do away with the conversion charge down. And I’d also make deliberate knock-ons much less likely to be awarded, leaving only the most blatant examples.
Most deliberate knock-ons are defenders reaching out instinctively to try to catch the ball. It may be that a player would be unlikely to catch the ball but that doesn’t make it intentional.
It’s also a penalty for a deliberate forward pass. You never see a pen for that. Why is an over-optimistic pass not deliberate but an over-optimistic catch attempt (“reasonable expectation”) is?
I can see the purpose as being to favour the team in possession. But the penalty is too harsh in too many cases against players trying to intercept, often instinctively.
I agree.
I think it's time to rethink the way of refeering rugby.
Too many laws, and as a consequence too many interpretations.
Rugby is a dangerous and messy sport. Adding laws and prohibitions and claim to rule every moment of the players' behaviour on the pitch leads to the present referee end TMO dictatorship.
Rugby is becoming more incomprehensible and sometime unwatcable.
laurent wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:44 am
France got 3 out of it.
Congratulations
Well proves it was daft idea.
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:13 pm
by assfly
laurent wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:02 pm
Well proves it was daft idea.
Not necessarily. The execution was fine; what happened afterwards had nothing to do with Willemse.
But it's a moot point anyway. Cherish your 3 points.
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:16 pm
by Chilli
According to the French media Bin's biggest mistake was giving Eben and extra 10 minutes around 1/2 time to catch his breath and recharge.............................
laurent wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:02 pm
Well proves it was daft idea.
Not necessarily. The execution was fine; what happened afterwards had nothing to do with Willemse.
But it's a moot point anyway. Cherish your 3 points.
could have backfired even more who knows.
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:19 pm
by assfly
laurent wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:16 pm
could have backfired even more who knows.
Indeed.
Anyway,
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:24 pm
by Insane_Homer
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:31 pm
by Sards
Chilli wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:16 pm
According to the French media Bin's biggest mistake was giving Eben and extra 10 minutes around 1/2 time to catch his breath and recharge.............................
laurent wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:44 am
France got 3 out of it.
Congratulations
Well proves it was daft idea.
It wasn't though. We went for the scrum, got the penalty and an opportunity for a cleaner exit than a normal free kick return would have provided.
The mistake was not finding touch with the penalty clearance.
It wasn't though. We went for the scrum, got the penalty and an opportunity for a cleaner exit than a normal free kick return would have provided.
The mistake was not finding touch with the penalty clearance.
There had been no scrum penalty against either side till then so a fairly big gamble.
Chilli wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:16 pm
According to the French media Bin's biggest mistake was giving Eben and extra 10 minutes around 1/2 time to catch his breath and recharge.............................
He really did come out fired up
He did and iirc correctly France only added 3 points when he was off so the net result was in favour of the Boks.
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:54 pm
by Hugo
I was gutted for the French yesterday and Im just as gutted today. 6 points up at home in the second half with a semi v England if they advanced.... This should have been their tournament for the taking.
It wasn't though. We went for the scrum, got the penalty and an opportunity for a cleaner exit than a normal free kick return would have provided.
The mistake was not finding touch with the penalty clearance.
This.
Even without a pen, a clearance kick out of from the 22 (not to touch) has 8 french forwards having to retreat rather than a full 15 man defensive line.
The next play, Reneich doesn't take the mark, clears for touch and France attack midfield from the lineout that leads to the holding pen for 3.
It wasn't though. We went for the scrum, got the penalty and an opportunity for a cleaner exit than a normal free kick return would have provided.
The mistake was not finding touch with the penalty clearance.
This.
Even without a pen, a clearance kick out of from the 22 (not to touch) has 8 french forwards having to retreat rather than a full 15 man defensive line.
The next play, Reneich doesn't take the mark, clears for touch and France attack midfield from the lineout that leads to the holding pen for 3.
I can’t believe anyone is defending this, it was a really fucking stupid thing to do
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 6:46 pm
by Fonz
Hugo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:54 pm
I was gutted for the French yesterday and Im just as gutted today. 6 points up at home in the second half with a semi v England if they advanced.... This should have been their tournament for the taking.
It really was, it was all lined up really…strong team, hosts, relatively mediocre sides from most of the usual powerhouses…
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:50 pm
by Tichtheid
I’ve just seen the Etzebeth “knockdown” for the first time – I joined the match immediately after it.
I have to say I think he was very, very fortunate. If, and I stress the if, that had been adjudged to have been deliberate knock on, you take the offending player out of the equation and award a penalty try, with the player sent to the bin.
14-0 after 7 minutes is a different kettle of ball games, especially since SA raced up the other end and scored, which was just where I started watching.
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:20 pm
by Blake
Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:50 pm
I’ve just seen the Etzebeth “knockdown” for the first time – I joined the match immediately after it.
I have to say I think he was very, very fortunate. If, and I stress the if, that had been adjudged to have been deliberate knock on, you take the offending player out of the equation and award a penalty try, with the player sent to the bin.
14-0 after 7 minutes is a different kettle of ball games, especially since SA raced up the other end and scored, which was just where I started watching.
It was a marginal call for sure. Another ref on another day with a different interpretation of events and it might have been a yellow and a penalty try.
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:01 am
by Enzedder
The tries, and the 'Hand of Eben' incident (went back, and the hand had a backward motion for me)
Talented or lucky , anyway right call from the ref
Why did Penaud tried to pass the ball to Ramos and not to Alldritt next to him ?
Re: RWC QF4 France vs Springboks on 15/10 @ 21h00
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:39 am
by OomStruisbaai
Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:50 pm
I’ve just seen the Etzebeth “knockdown” for the first time – I joined the match immediately after it.
I have to say I think he was very, very fortunate. If, and I stress the if, that had been adjudged to have been deliberate knock on, you take the offending player out of the equation and award a penalty try, with the player sent to the bin.
14-0 after 7 minutes is a different kettle of ball games, especially since SA raced up the other end and scored, which was just where I started watching.
