NPR

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:57 am Thanks guys re Albon. The comment was perhaps more facetious than intended and I didn't realise how bad the Red Bull is.

Max is some driver also seems like a very likeable chap

Saint wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:24 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:45 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:24 pm


I think that the car is still VERY unpredictable unless you're an absolute top level driver, it still appear to understeer/oversteer at random

You have to be a fearless loon to drive the Red Bull at 100% for 70 laps. Albon isn’t that guy....

There's only 2 or 3 drivers that might be. Red Bull are lucky to have one of them

Saint wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:23 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:46 pm Seeing as the drivers wanting to practice starts is a standard and with each track having its own characteristics it seems a little odd they're not setting out what areas can be used and when. Not that I feel much sympathy with Hamilton, the stewards were a little finickity today in a number of instances but if you mayn't like a ruling don't give them a chance

The issue with having a set area to practice starts, especially at a street track, is the you end up with an area that's massively rubbered in, and bears little to no relation to the conditions of the starting grid. The team certainly didn't believe that the rules prohibited this, although apparently the race director had prohibited it - which then went and made all the possible penalties entirely discretionary, as it wasn't I. either the sporting or technical regulations

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:47 am

Saint wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:23 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:46 pm Seeing as the drivers wanting to practice starts is a standard and with each track having its own characteristics it seems a little odd they're not setting out what areas can be used and when. Not that I feel much sympathy with Hamilton, the stewards were a little finickity today in a number of instances but if you mayn't like a ruling don't give them a chance

The issue with having a set area to practice starts, especially at a street track, is the you end up with an area that's massively rubbered in, and bears little to no relation to the conditions of the starting grid. The team certainly didn't believe that the rules prohibited this, although apparently the race director had prohibited it - which then went and made all the possible penalties entirely discretionary, as it wasn't I. either the sporting or technical regulations

Having a rubbered in area is why Hamilton went off piste. Which leaves me wondering why there isn't simply more clarity about what areas can be used. Or I suppose they could remove a lot of the software around launching a car off the line

ScarfaceClaw wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:04 am You have to wonder how good Albon is at giving feedback to the engineers. If he can’t express what’s going on in the car or what he’s trying to do then it’s impossible for them to adjust anything or look at.

TB63 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:44 pm I miss AlanBengios unbiased posting...

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:05 pm Hamilton is being ridden hard by the stewards - no question. If his name was Leclerc then he could do pretty much anything he liked without penalty.

Saint wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:56 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:47 am

Saint wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:23 pm


The issue with having a set area to practice starts, especially at a street track, is the you end up with an area that's massively rubbered in, and bears little to no relation to the conditions of the starting grid. The team certainly didn't believe that the rules prohibited this, although apparently the race director had prohibited it - which then went and made all the possible penalties entirely discretionary, as it wasn't I. either the sporting or technical regulations

Having a rubbered in area is why Hamilton went off piste. Which leaves me wondering why there isn't simply more clarity about what areas can be used. Or I suppose they could remove a lot of the software around launching a car off the line

F1 cars don't have launch control any more - which is why drivers want to spend so much time practicing the start, and in Hamilton;s case practising a start in an area of track that more closely resembled the grid in terms of grip. Most drivers are just looking to find where the bite point is, but Hamilton was also trying to discover just how much or little wheel spin was out there.

I'm of the view that as long as a driver isn't impeding other drivers, then they should pretty much be allowed to practice this wherever. No-one is saying that he had stopped in a dangerous place

ScarfaceClaw wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:31 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:05 pm Hamilton is being ridden hard by the stewards - no question. If his name was Leclerc then he could do pretty much anything he liked without penalty.

I must have missed LeClerc doing practice starts in random parts of the track outside where they were instructed to do them.

ScarfaceClaw wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:31 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:05 pm Hamilton is being ridden hard by the stewards - no question. If his name was Leclerc then he could do pretty much anything he liked without penalty.

I must have missed LeClerc doing practice starts in random parts of the track outside where they were instructed to do them.

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:51 pm

ScarfaceClaw wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:31 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:05 pm Hamilton is being ridden hard by the stewards - no question. If his name was Leclerc then he could do pretty much anything he liked without penalty.

I must have missed LeClerc doing practice starts in random parts of the track outside where they were instructed to do them.

Now now, he did the practice starts exactly where the instructions said ..... they deemed it too far down the wall that’s all.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:49 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:56 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:47 am

Having a rubbered in area is why Hamilton went off piste. Which leaves me wondering why there isn't simply more clarity about what areas can be used. Or I suppose they could remove a lot of the software around launching a car off the line

F1 cars don't have launch control any more - which is why drivers want to spend so much time practicing the start, and in Hamilton;s case practising a start in an area of track that more closely resembled the grid in terms of grip. Most drivers are just looking to find where the bite point is, but Hamilton was also trying to discover just how much or little wheel spin was out there.

I'm of the view that as long as a driver isn't impeding other drivers, then they should pretty much be allowed to practice this wherever. No-one is saying that he had stopped in a dangerous place

Not launch control as was, but there are plenty of settings still on the cars that can be adjusted which impact how the cars get off the grid.

Saint wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:29 pm Realistically there isn;t much - the bigger risk is the car mis-readingthe situation and moving into an incorrect mode for a stationary vehicle.

Fundamentally the car laucnh is about as manual as you can get with an enginer that;s tuned to run a 12,000+ revs and has no cooling. There's a clutch, and bite point, and a throttle. The driver has to find and hold the bite point, release it, and apply as much throttle at the same time so as to not stall or spin the wheels, then move smoothly up the gears. My road car actually has a lot more tech to pull away from the line, even if I drop into semi-auto mode and turn the flappy paddles on

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:34 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:29 pm Realistically there isn;t much - the bigger risk is the car mis-readingthe situation and moving into an incorrect mode for a stationary vehicle.

Fundamentally the car laucnh is about as manual as you can get with an enginer that;s tuned to run a 12,000+ revs and has no cooling. There's a clutch, and bite point, and a throttle. The driver has to find and hold the bite point, release it, and apply as much throttle at the same time so as to not stall or spin the wheels, then move smoothly up the gears. My road car actually has a lot more tech to pull away from the line, even if I drop into semi-auto mode and turn the flappy paddles on

Thinly-veiled 'I drive a nice car'

MoreOrLess wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:19 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:51 pm

ScarfaceClaw wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:31 pm

I must have missed LeClerc doing practice starts in random parts of the track outside where they were instructed to do them.

Now now, he did the practice starts exactly where the instructions said ..... they deemed it too far down the wall that’s all.

He was in the fast lane, that's explicitly prohibited in the race directors notes. Merc dropped the ball by not reading the event rules....twice.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... on%203.pdf

25.2 Should a car stop on the track during a session, the driver must keep all of their protective clothing (Helmet, Gloves, etc) on until they have returned to their garage.

Saint wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:50 pm

MoreOrLess wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:19 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:51 pm



Now now, he did the practice starts exactly where the instructions said ..... they deemed it too far down the wall that’s all.

He was in the fast lane, that's explicitly prohibited in the race directors notes. Merc dropped the ball by not reading the event rules....twice.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... on%203.pdf

Strictly speaking, the fast lane is the road to the left of the garages. It starts at the pit lane entry (where the speed limiter kicks in and finishes at the pit lane lights (where you take the limiter off).
That's the point you're not allowed to stop in (unless the lights are red of course).

Hamilton got into trouble because he moved further down the exit where he pulled in. So that stage, even though he pulled to the right, there wasn't two car widths space between the barrier and track marker lines. It's a bit of an irrelevance because no car is actually going to want to be there in the first place - he was nice and safely out of the way. But, by a strict reading of the event notes, because another car couldn't pass him there and stay of the track, he was clobbered.

The very real trouble is that it's ambiguous compared to other races. At Mugello, it was far more specific about what the driver had to do.

As an aside, there are many more event notes that could be used to clobber almost every driver. For instance:

25.2 Should a car stop on the track during a session, the driver must keep all of their protective clothing (Helmet, Gloves, etc) on until they have returned to their garage.

.

Almost never happens unless the driver is really angry

MoreOrLess wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:19 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:51 pm

ScarfaceClaw wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:31 pm

I must have missed LeClerc doing practice starts in random parts of the track outside where they were instructed to do them.m

Now now, he did the practice starts exactly where the instructions said ..... they deemed it too far down the wall that’s all.

He was in the fast lane, that's explicitly prohibited in the race directors notes. Merc dropped the ball by not reading the event rules....twice.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... on%203.pdf

MoreOrLess wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:11 pm He either didn't know it wasnt allowed or wasn't sure. His race engineer definitely didn't know it wasn't allowed. Either way, they hadn't read the rules and they got punished. I'm not sure there's much recourse from that.

MoreOrLess wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:11 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:50 pm

MoreOrLess wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:19 pm

He was in the fast lane, that's explicitly prohibited in the race directors notes. Merc dropped the ball by not reading the event rules....twice.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... on%203.pdf

Strictly speaking, the fast lane is the road to the left of the garages. It starts at the pit lane entry (where the speed limiter kicks in and finishes at the pit lane lights (where you take the limiter off).
That's the point you're not allowed to stop in (unless the lights are red of course).

Hamilton got into trouble because he moved further down the exit where he pulled in. So that stage, even though he pulled to the right, there wasn't two car widths space between the barrier and track marker lines. It's a bit of an irrelevance because no car is actually going to want to be there in the first place - he was nice and safely out of the way. But, by a strict reading of the event notes, because another car couldn't pass him there and stay of the track, he was clobbered.

The very real trouble is that it's ambiguous compared to other races. At Mugello, it was far more specific about what the driver had to do.

As an aside, there are many more event notes that could be used to clobber almost every driver. For instance:

25.2 Should a car stop on the track during a session, the driver must keep all of their protective clothing (Helmet, Gloves, etc) on until they have returned to their garage.

.

Almost never happens unless the driver is really angry

If that doesn't count as the fast lane then it's part of the race track (since you can race at full speed), in which case its definitely not permitted.

There's a piece of track to the right of the pit lane (not between the white lines) just past the pit exit lights. This meets the requirements of the regulation and was where everyone else was practicing starts. Hamilton just didn't like the rubber in that bit.

He either didn't know it wasnt allowed or wasn't sure. His race engineer definitely didn't know it wasn't allowed. Either way, they hadn't read the rules and they got punished. I'm not sure there's much recourse from that.

On top of your point other discretionary rules, I suspect Leclerc would have got away with practicing starts there. That's what happens when your agent's surname is Todt. And given Domenicali's new role, I don't think that'll change soon, either...

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:16 pm

MoreOrLess wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:11 pm He either didn't know it wasnt allowed or wasn't sure. His race engineer definitely didn't know it wasn't allowed. Either way, they hadn't read the rules and they got punished. I'm not sure there's much recourse from that.

Actually, according to Wolff the Mercedes team had read the rules. He said the circuit notes made no mention of how far beyond the pit exit lights a driver was permitted to do a practice start from, it just said they had to stay over to the right of the pit exit lane to allow cars to pass on the left.

Shanky’s mate wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:30 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:16 pm

MoreOrLess wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:11 pm He either didn't know it wasnt allowed or wasn't sure. His race engineer definitely didn't know it wasn't allowed. Either way, they hadn't read the rules and they got punished. I'm not sure there's much recourse from that.

Actually, according to Wolff the Mercedes team had read the rules. He said the circuit notes made no mention of how far beyond the pit exit lights a driver was permitted to do a practice start from, it just said they had to stay over to the right of the pit exit lane to allow cars to pass on the left.

That explains the mass confusion then... with all those other teams making the same mistake.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:41 pm

Shanky’s mate wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:30 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:16 pm


Actually, according to Wolff the Mercedes team had read the rules. He said the circuit notes made no mention of how far beyond the pit exit lights a driver was permitted to do a practice start from, it just said they had to stay over to the right of the pit exit lane to allow cars to pass on the left.

That explains the mass confusion then... with all those other teams making the same mistake.

By that logic, every team bar Mercedes has misunderstood the regulations on how to build a fast car for the last 7 years.

Shanky’s mate wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:44 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:41 pm

Shanky’s mate wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:30 pm

That explains the mass confusion then... with all those other teams making the same mistake.

By that logic, every team bar Mercedes has misunderstood the regulations on how to build a fast car for the last 7 years.

The logical progression there suggests they’re cheating*.

TB63 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:22 pm Can't see RB going back to Renault after the way they announced they were leaving.. Friend of mine works for Williams, Aston engine doing well in development.. Allegedly..

TB63 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:22 pm Can't see RB going back to Renault after the way they announced they were leaving.. Friend of mine works for Williams, Aston engine doing well in development.. Allegedly..

TB63 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:22 pm Can't see RB going back to Renault after the way they announced they were leaving.. Friend of mine works for Williams, Aston engine doing well in development.. Allegedly..

sturginho wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:36 pm I've read that since Ferrari and Merc both supply 3 teams and Renault only 2 they could be asked by the FIA to step in. Alpha Tauri will probably go back to Ferrari

sturginho wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:36 pm I've read that since Ferrari and Merc both supply 3 teams and Renault only 2 they could be asked by the FIA to step in. Alpha Tauri will probably go back to Ferrari

Saint wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:11 pm No FP sessions today as fog prevented the medical helicopter from running, therefore making the track unsafe according to the regs.

Rumours coming out that Red Bull will simply become an engine manufacturer themselves, buying the Honda IP and taking over the engine team based in Milton Keynes