NPR

Jock42 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:52 pm Whilst he obviously has to do the right thing for himself/family I can't help feeling like he's making excuses now.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:37 am

Jock42 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:52 pm Whilst he obviously has to do the right thing for himself/family I can't help feeling like he's making excuses now.

If that’s the way he feels, then why doesn’t he just retire? It would be disappointing, as he can still offer something for Scotland, but at least we’d know where we stood. All of this ‘not tonight’ nonsense is starting to get silly.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:37 pm From ToL:

One player who could have added plenty of experience and a physical presence is Glasgow Warriors second-row Richie Gray, but the 32-year-old with 67 Scotland caps and one Lions appearance against Australia in 2013 rendered himself unavailable for this match.

“Richie feels that he has had a lot of rugby – seven games in a row – and he didn’t feel he was in the right condition to be available for this game,” explained Townsend. “Whether that continues over the next few weeks we will see. He was certainly someone I spoke to about coming into camp.”

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am RIP Sandy Carmichael, one of the greats.

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am RIP Sandy Carmichael, one of the greats.

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:28 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:37 am

Jock42 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:52 pm Whilst he obviously has to do the right thing for himself/family I can't help feeling like he's making excuses now.

If that’s the way he feels, then why doesn’t he just retire? It would be disappointing, as he can still offer something for Scotland, but at least we’d know where we stood. All of this ‘not tonight’ nonsense is starting to get silly.

Why should he retire? He isn't one of the key second rows for the national team and he'll know his body and mind better than anyone. When was the last time he played 8 games in a row?

Townsend knows where he stands with Gray and certainly won't be planning squads around him.

They clearly have grown up discussions with each other and there's no need for it to change given where he is in the general pecking order.

It isn't like the pack is short or experience anyway.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:30 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:28 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:37 am

If that’s the way he feels, then why doesn’t he just retire? It would be disappointing, as he can still offer something for Scotland, but at least we’d know where we stood. All of this ‘not tonight’ nonsense is starting to get silly.

Why should he retire? He isn't one of the key second rows for the national team and he'll know his body and mind better than anyone. When was the last time he played 8 games in a row?

Townsend knows where he stands with Gray and certainly won't be planning squads around him.

They clearly have grown up discussions with each other and there's no need for it to change given where he is in the general pecking order.

It isn't like the pack is short or experience anyway.

Because if the call goes out and you have to think about whether to answer it, your heart is no longer in it. That’s all.

Richie has been a fine servant to Scotland for many years. If he thinks that his body isn’t up to the job of Test rugby any more, fair play to him. Thanks for all of your service, much of it played in difficult circumstances as part of a failing team. But swithering like this over whether to make himself available or not disrespects the jersey a wee bit for me. All of us would have crawled over broken glass to play for Scotland if we’d been given the talent. You’re either in or you’re out.

Jock42 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:54 pm I'm assuming the Tongans will be under strength too? Could be a tough day if not.

Bradbury must chuffed a bloke who's not played in months is ahead of him when he's in this form.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:24 am Bradbury should be pissed off he's 26 approaching his prime and wouldn't be considered in anyone's starting Edinburgh back row. To be annoyed you're not a backup is weak you have to be annoyed you aren't or close to a starter.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:39 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:24 am Bradbury should be pissed off he's 26 approaching his prime and wouldn't be considered in anyone's starting Edinburgh back row. To be annoyed you're not a backup is weak you have to be annoyed you aren't or close to a starter.

Before he got the shoulder injury against Toulon he'd have been definitely in the conversation between himself and Big Bill, since then his form hasn't been at its peak whilst Bill has become better and better.

Peak Bradbury would be in my 23 and who knows how long Embra can keep hold of Mata? Mata would start for almost every national side in the world - put him in a pack like Racing's and he would wreak havoc, I wouldn't be surprised to see him there as his next move.

Embra's backrow contains Watson who for me should have started all three Lions tests and Ritchie who was unlucky not to tour this time, but he will be the Scotland captain before too long, so it's not an easy unit to break into.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:39 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:24 am Bradbury should be pissed off he's 26 approaching his prime and wouldn't be considered in anyone's starting Edinburgh back row. To be annoyed you're not a backup is weak you have to be annoyed you aren't or close to a starter.

Before he got the shoulder injury against Toulon he'd have been definitely in the conversation between himself and Big Bill, since then his form hasn't been at its peak whilst Bill has become better and better.

Peak Bradbury would be in my 23 and who knows how long Embra can keep hold of Mata? Mata would start for almost every national side in the world - put him in a pack like Racing's and he would wreak havoc, I wouldn't be surprised to see him there as his next move.

Embra's backrow contains Watson who for me should have started all three Lions tests and Ritchie who was unlucky not to tour this time, but he will be the Scotland captain before too long, so it's not an easy unit to break into.

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:26 pm

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:30 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:28 am

Why should he retire? He isn't one of the key second rows for the national team and he'll know his body and mind better than anyone. When was the last time he played 8 games in a row?

Townsend knows where he stands with Gray and certainly won't be planning squads around him.

They clearly have grown up discussions with each other and there's no need for it to change given where he is in the general pecking order.

It isn't like the pack is short or experience anyway.

Because if the call goes out and you have to think about whether to answer it, your heart is no longer in it. That’s all.

Richie has been a fine servant to Scotland for many years. If he thinks that his body isn’t up to the job of Test rugby any more, fair play to him. Thanks for all of your service, much of it played in difficult circumstances as part of a failing team. But swithering like this over whether to make himself available or not disrespects the jersey a wee bit for me. All of us would have crawled over broken glass to play for Scotland if we’d been given the talent. You’re either in or you’re out.

It's the opposite of disrespecting the jersey though. Disrespecting the jersey would be turning up and half arsing it. Or having to sit out of contact sessions because your bodies still sore from the weeks before.

He played in the 6N so it would seem he and Townsend have quite a healthy relationship.
Coach and player are capable of having an adult discussion over availability. He isn't one of the top 4 or 5 locks when all are fit and if Townsend was that desperate for him to be involved they'd have had a chat weeks ago and managed his playing time. Given he is 31 with a long injury history. The way Townsends comments were reported it seems like if was a chat late in the process.

It is 5 or 6 years since Gray started more than 4 weeks in a row it wouldn't be surprising if he was feeling it.

There's no need for him to retire so long as he and Townsend are continuing to have good conversations over it.

All of us would have crawled over broken glass to play for Scotland if we’d been given the talent

Big D wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:48 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:39 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:24 am Bradbury should be pissed off he's 26 approaching his prime and wouldn't be considered in anyone's starting Edinburgh back row. To be annoyed you're not a backup is weak you have to be annoyed you aren't or close to a starter.

Before he got the shoulder injury against Toulon he'd have been definitely in the conversation between himself and Big Bill, since then his form hasn't been at its peak whilst Bill has become better and better.

Peak Bradbury would be in my 23 and who knows how long Embra can keep hold of Mata? Mata would start for almost every national side in the world - put him in a pack like Racing's and he would wreak havoc, I wouldn't be surprised to see him there as his next move.

Embra's backrow contains Watson who for me should have started all three Lions tests and Ritchie who was unlucky not to tour this time, but he will be the Scotland captain before too long, so it's not an easy unit to break into.

I sometimes think it was an error to bring back Bill. He is undoubtedly talented and great to watch but would it have made more sense to use Bradbury, Haining and Muncaster at 8 and spend some money elsewhere/keep it in the back pocket? His deal was extended with no date announced but would assume it was at least a two year extension through to 2023.

I would say it is no disgrace not to be first choice Edinburgh back row, the current Scotland number 8 wouldn't be in that back row either, but that being said Bradbury is a step or three behind where we all hoped he would be. I wonder if his time in the second row has just toughened him up a wee bit.

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:54 am

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:26 pm

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:30 pm

Because if the call goes out and you have to think about whether to answer it, your heart is no longer in it. That’s all.

Richie has been a fine servant to Scotland for many years. If he thinks that his body isn’t up to the job of Test rugby any more, fair play to him. Thanks for all of your service, much of it played in difficult circumstances as part of a failing team. But swithering like this over whether to make himself available or not disrespects the jersey a wee bit for me. All of us would have crawled over broken glass to play for Scotland if we’d been given the talent. You’re either in or you’re out.

It's the opposite of disrespecting the jersey though. Disrespecting the jersey would be turning up and half arsing it. Or having to sit out of contact sessions because your bodies still sore from the weeks before.

He played in the 6N so it would seem he and Townsend have quite a healthy relationship.
Coach and player are capable of having an adult discussion over availability. He isn't one of the top 4 or 5 locks when all are fit and if Townsend was that desperate for him to be involved they'd have had a chat weeks ago and managed his playing time. Given he is 31 with a long injury history. The way Townsends comments were reported it seems like if was a chat late in the process.

It is 5 or 6 years since Gray started more than 4 weeks in a row it wouldn't be surprising if he was feeling it.

There's no need for him to retire so long as he and Townsend are continuing to have good conversations over it.

I tend to agree with Yr Alban that he has to make up his mind even if for nothing more than it's not fair on other players.

Where I don't agree is this

All of us would have crawled over broken glass to play for Scotland if we’d been given the talent

I think it was Martin Johnson who said the one thing that pisses him off about rugby was people saying to him they "had the talent but drank too much and found women - tell that to me when I'm running up hills in the freezing snow on Christmas Day to make it happen"

I don't think the suggestion he is committed is fair.

“Richie feels that he has had a lot of rugby – seven games in a row – and he didn't feel he was in the right condition to be available for this game,”

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:54 am

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:26 pm

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:30 pm

Because if the call goes out and you have to think about whether to answer it, your heart is no longer in it. That’s all.

Richie has been a fine servant to Scotland for many years. If he thinks that his body isn’t up to the job of Test rugby any more, fair play to him. Thanks for all of your service, much of it played in difficult circumstances as part of a failing team. But swithering like this over whether to make himself available or not disrespects the jersey a wee bit for me. All of us would have crawled over broken glass to play for Scotland if we’d been given the talent. You’re either in or you’re out.

It's the opposite of disrespecting the jersey though. Disrespecting the jersey would be turning up and half arsing it. Or having to sit out of contact sessions because your bodies still sore from the weeks before.

He played in the 6N so it would seem he and Townsend have quite a healthy relationship.
Coach and player are capable of having an adult discussion over availability. He isn't one of the top 4 or 5 locks when all are fit and if Townsend was that desperate for him to be involved they'd have had a chat weeks ago and managed his playing time. Given he is 31 with a long injury history. The way Townsends comments were reported it seems like if was a chat late in the process.

It is 5 or 6 years since Gray started more than 4 weeks in a row it wouldn't be surprising if he was feeling it.

There's no need for him to retire so long as he and Townsend are continuing to have good conversations over it.

I tend to agree with Yr Alban that he has to make up his mind even if for nothing more than it's not fair on other players.

Where I don't agree is this

All of us would have crawled over broken glass to play for Scotland if we’d been given the talent

I think it was Martin Johnson who said the one thing that pisses him off about rugby was people saying to him they "had the talent but drank too much and found women - tell that to me when I'm running up hills in the freezing snow on Christmas Day to make it happen"

I don't think the suggestion he is committed is fair.

It was late in the afternoon of Saturday, June 19, 1971 when the journalist John Reason met the British & Irish Lions coach Carwyn James near the tourists’ changing room at Christchurch’s Lancaster Park soon after their 14-3 win against Canterbury. Reason asked the coach how Sandy Carmichael was. “Come and see for yourself,” James replied.

“His left eye was closed and a huge blue swelling of agonised flesh hung out from the cheekbone like a grotesque plum,” Reason would report. “His right eye was a slit between the puffed skin above and below it. His right eyelid was gashed and straggling with blood. Another gash snagged away from the corner of his eye. He was quivering with emotion and frustration. His hands shook as he tried to hold the ice pack on the swellings’.

That match between the Lions and Canterbury has entered the annals for many reasons. For one, it exposed the thuggishness and the win-at-all-costs mentality of New Zealand provincial rugby at the time. For another, taking place just one week before the first match of the epic Test series that the Lions would win 2-1, it showed that the tourists were not going to lie down in the face of brutality. Finally, it burnished the legend of Carmichael as a man who could be beaten to a pulp but who would stand square against all the violence that came his way.

Carmichael suffered five fractures around his eye socket and cheekbone in that game. He had been in line to start against the All Blacks the following week, but those injuries ended his tour. He was picked again for the Lions tour to South Africa in 1974, but Fran Cotton had emerged as the British Isles’ leading tighthead by that point, so Carmichael never won the full Lions cap that contemporaries felt he deserved.

Between those tours he did, however, gain some revenge for what had happened in Christchurch. In January 1973 he was picked to play for the Barbarians against the All Blacks in Cardiff and played a full part in one of the most celebrated games in rugby history — best known for Gareth Edwards’s famous length-of-field try — and the Barbarians’ 23-11 win.
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Alexander Bennett Carmichael was born in Glasgow in February 1944 to David Carmichael and Jessie “Jet” Bennett. His father was an accountant and a councillor in Eastwood, a suburb on the south side of the city, where the Carmichael Hall is named in his memory. His mother was a homemaker, although it is thought she may have done secretarial work when younger.

Carmichael’s forenames came from his maternal grandfather, Alex Bennett, a noted footballer of the early years of the 20th century who, unusually, played for both Celtic and Rangers and also gained 11 Scotland caps before moving into management with Third Lanark and then Clydebank.

He was educated at Belmont School in Glasgow and then at Loretto School in Musselburgh. An all-round sportsman, at Loretto he was captain of rugby and captain of athletics, and had a hockey trial, as a goalkeeper, for the Scotland Schools team. He set a shot-put record that stood for many years. Remarkably, for a player who would come to be recognised as one of the world’s great tighthead props, he was a quick enough sprinter to be Loretto champion over 220 yards.

Moving back to Glasgow, where many of the top rugby clubs were open only to former pupils of their associated schools, Carmichael joined West of Scotland, where no such restrictions applied. He arrived at a propitious moment, as throughout the 1960s “West” grew into one of the most formidable clubs in the country. He made his debut for the club in 1962, first played for Glasgow District in 1964, and first appeared for Scotland against Ireland at Murrayfield in February 1967.

It was an unexpected introduction to Test rugby for Carmichael. David Rollo was due to start at tighthead, but fell ill an hour before the game and Carmichael was called into the side. His parents were unaware that he was about to win his first cap until, watching from the stand, they saw him run out with the rest of the Scotland team.

As at West, Carmichael picked his moment well. After a number of poor years Scotland, and the Scotland pack in particular, were developing into a real force, with players like Jim Telfer, Ian McLauchlan, Peter and Gordon Brown, Rodger Arneil and Frank Laidlaw. His prop partnership with “Mighty Mouse” McLauchlan, who played for Jordanhill, was particularly fruitful in the Test arena, although their rivalry on club duty could be fierce.

Carmichael recalled one battle in particular: “There was a Glasgow Cup match where we tore each other apart for 80 minutes,” he said. “After that we got together and decided never to do it again. It was pointless, a complete waste of time.” Despite such vicious encounters he later became an early advocate for women’s rugby and was the national team’s first coach.

Carmichael enjoyed the distinction of being on the winning side for Scotland against England five times, including the famous March 1971 double when the Scots won twice in eight days — at Twickenham in a Five Nations match and at Murrayfield in the Centenary International the following weekend. His solitary international try was scored against Wales at Murrayfield the same year.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:51 pm Rufus McLean will break into the Scotland squad by the end of this season and will stay there for the next decade. Baller.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:53 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:51 pm Rufus McLean will break into the Scotland squad by the end of this season and will stay there for the next decade. Baller.

Aye.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:53 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:51 pm Rufus McLean will break into the Scotland squad by the end of this season and will stay there for the next decade. Baller.

Aye.

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:21 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:53 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:51 pm Rufus McLean will break into the Scotland squad by the end of this season and will stay there for the next decade. Baller.

Aye.

Ahh! It was you!

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:03 pm Had my eldest at his first game, had to explain this won't happen v everyone.

Some good, some not so good but it is a hit out and a lot of debuts.

Not sure it told us too much we didn't know already. Bigger tests for the forwards and the backs defence to come.

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:24 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:03 pm Had my eldest at his first game, had to explain this won't happen v everyone.

Some good, some not so good but it is a hit out and a lot of debuts.

Not sure it told us too much we didn't know already. Bigger tests for the forwards and the backs defence to come.

How old is your eldest? I’m taking mine to the Japan game. He’s 5 so I think too young but I can’t resist.

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:28 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:24 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:03 pm Had my eldest at his first game, had to explain this won't happen v everyone.

Some good, some not so good but it is a hit out and a lot of debuts.

Not sure it told us too much we didn't know already. Bigger tests for the forwards and the backs defence to come.

How old is your eldest? I’m taking mine to the Japan game. He’s 5 so I think too young but I can’t resist.

He's seven, was less than half capacity so good one to ease him into. He's been to a few football matches so knew he'd be fine.

Japan game should be a good one.

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:34 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:28 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:24 pm

How old is your eldest? I’m taking mine to the Japan game. He’s 5 so I think too young but I can’t resist.

He's seven, was less than half capacity so good one to ease him into. He's been to a few football matches so knew he'd be fine.

Japan game should be a good one.

Yeah, a lot of folk have said 7 is about right. I expect we will be leaving early but I think he’ll love it.

Think the anthems might get a bit emotional thinking back to going with my own dad.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:32 am Slight aside, but non-playing highlight of the match for me was seeing how genuinely delighted Price was for Dobie getting on for his first cap. Lovely to see that kind of thing.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:17 am I like Blair Kinghorn, he’s 24 years old and has talked about the abuse he’s had on social media and how it affects guys like himself who are at the age where using the internet is such a big part of their lives.
I’m not saying that makes rugby players immune to fair or realistic criticism, but I wonder, Slick, is Ross Thompson more deserving of being developed by dint of being two years younger than Kinghorn?
To my mind Kinghorn has a huge ceiling as a fly half and this was the game to try him out, his pass for one of McLean’s tries was straight out of the Finn play book, as was the kick to Steyn.
Not everything came off, he was bounced by the winger who bounced Graham a few times but no one is calling out his defence

This was BK’s what fourth pro start at 10? I hope he shows the critics up, I really do.

On another note Jamie Ritchie showed again that he should have toured with the Lions

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:32 pm Thought we were decent today although too many stupid penalties which is frustrating.

Zander looks like he has really grown up since the Lions, don’t know what it was but he seemed to be taking a much more senior role and not getting distracted. Hodgeson did well, hardly really saw the other Fagerson.

In the backs I don’t think Kinghorn is really up to it yet, his defence was really not very good and seemed a bit ponderous. He might get there but I’d rather see the young guys developed.

Tuipoluto doesn’t look at international player to me. Both wings did great, McLean is a proper talent. Darcy just continues to amaze.

Overall, about as good as we could expect. Those are the kind of games we used to dread but they dealt with it all easily