NPR

Team is out. Can’t figure out how to post a pic so here goes:

1. Schoeman
2. McInally
3. Fagerson
4. Skinner
5. Gilchrist
6. Haining
7. Ritchie
8. Fagerson
9. Price
10. Russell
11. Van der Merwe
12. Scott
13. Harris
14. McLean
15. Hogg

16. Ashman
17. Bhatti
18. Kebble
19. Hodgson
20. Watson
21. Horne
22. Hastings
23. Kinghorn

Ah well, someone got there first as I was typing it.

Big surprise is Watson on the bench. Can only assume he is carrying an injury.

Pleased to see McLean starting after his show v Tonga.

Scott at 12 - well, I’ve been calling for him to get another chance for years. All I can say is he had better not let me down now!

The thinking must be that there is little scope for back row shenanigans early on against the Saffer monsters - so let's just put honest beef in instead.

Johnson injured presumably?

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:56 pm The thinking must be that there is little scope for back row shenanigans early on against the Saffer monsters - so let's just put honest beef in instead.

Johnson injured presumably?

South Africa are going to beat us all day every day if we play to their strengths.

The only justification of dropping Watson one of our very best players for Haining is Watson is injured. Anything else is just stupidity.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:58 pm

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:56 pm The thinking must be that there is little scope for back row shenanigans early on against the Saffer monsters - so let's just put honest beef in instead.

Johnson injured presumably?

South Africa are going to beat us all day every day if we play to their strengths.

The only justification of dropping Watson one of our very best players for Haining is Watson is injured. Anything else is just stupidity.

Watson has only played about 120 min of rugby since the Lions tour. It is probably related to that.

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:00 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:58 pm

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:56 pm The thinking must be that there is little scope for back row shenanigans early on against the Saffer monsters - so let's just put honest beef in instead.

Johnson injured presumably?

South Africa are going to beat us all day every day if we play to their strengths.

The only justification of dropping Watson one of our very best players for Haining is Watson is injured. Anything else is just stupidity.

Watson has only played about 120 min of rugby since the Lions tour. It is probably related to that.

Hope not. Scotland already have very generous player resting policies that are pointless if part of that policy is when playing the world champions. Also Haining had 30 minutes at outside centre in a training run Vs Tonga and nothing else since his march injury. He's even less ready to play the Boks. If Watson isn't fit enough to start he's not fit enough to bench either.

All in all. A very very stupid decision.

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:00 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:58 pm
South Africa are going to beat us all day every day if we play to their strengths.

The only justification of dropping Watson one of our very best players for Haining is Watson is injured. Anything else is just stupidity.

Watson has only played about 120 min of rugby since the Lions tour. It is probably related to that.

Or Townsend was in the Tom Curry camp on the Lions tour? Hopefully he has more sense than that.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:22 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:00 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:58 pm

South Africa are going to beat us all day every day if we play to their strengths.

The only justification of dropping Watson one of our very best players for Haining is Watson is injured. Anything else is just stupidity.

Watson has only played about 120 min of rugby since the Lions tour. It is probably related to that.

Hope not. Scotland already have very generous player resting policies that are pointless if part of that policy is when playing the world champions. Also Haining had 30 minutes at outside centre in a training run Vs Tonga and nothing else since his march injury. He's even less ready to play the Boks. If Watson isn't fit enough to start he's not fit enough to bench either.

All in all. A very very stupid decision.

Watson wasn't just rested though between the Lions tour and now though. He was rehabbing an injury too.

It isn't that unusual for a player coming back from injury not to start 3 or 4 games in a row. FWIW I agree he should be starting.

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:43 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:22 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:00 pm

Watson has only played about 120 min of rugby since the Lions tour. It is probably related to that.

Hope not. Scotland already have very generous player resting policies that are pointless if part of that policy is when playing the world champions. Also Haining had 30 minutes at outside centre in a training run Vs Tonga and nothing else since his march injury. He's even less ready to play the Boks. If Watson isn't fit enough to start he's not fit enough to bench either.

All in all. A very very stupid decision.

Watson wasn't just rested though between the Lions tour and now though. He was rehabbing an injury too.

It isn't that unusual for a player coming back from injury not to start 3 or 4 games in a row. FWIW I agree he should be starting.

I suspect that Johnson and Watson are both injured or carrying injuries and didnt need to be risked. Johnson came off in Aussie game and seemed to be injured and Tuipuloto pulled up in training. Watson has been rehabbing since Lions Tour and the the Tonga game was his first game back, looks like he just needs game management, pointless to risk him. I like the idea he can cause some damage coming on after 60mins as long we are still in the fight. I can understand not wanting to throw inexperienced hooker Ashman into only his 2nd game at this level against the World Champs and probably the biggest pack around. McLean for Graham is interesting, I would have gone for Steyn but McLean is a real talent so I can live with the call. My main worry is we get munched up front in first 40 mins.

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:43 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:22 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:00 pm

Watson has only played about 120 min of rugby since the Lions tour. It is probably related to that.

Hope not. Scotland already have very generous player resting policies that are pointless if part of that policy is when playing the world champions. Also Haining had 30 minutes at outside centre in a training run Vs Tonga and nothing else since his march injury. He's even less ready to play the Boks. If Watson isn't fit enough to start he's not fit enough to bench either.

All in all. A very very stupid decision.

Watson wasn't just rested though between the Lions tour and now though. He was rehabbing an injury too.

It isn't that unusual for a player coming back from injury not to start 3 or 4 games in a row. FWIW I agree he should be starting.

I suspect that Johnson and Watson are both injured or carrying injuries and didnt need to be risked. Johnson came off in Aussie game and seemed to be injured and Tuipuloto pulled up in training. Watson has been rehabbing since Lions Tour and the the Tonga game was his first game back, looks like he just needs game management, pointless to risk him. I like the idea he can cause some damage coming on after 60mins as long we are still in the fight. I can understand not wanting to throw inexperienced hooker Ashman into only his 2nd game at this level against the World Champs and probably the biggest pack around. McLean for Graham is interesting, I would have gone for Steyn but McLean is a real talent so I can live with the call. My main worry is we get munched up front in first 40 mins.

dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:25 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:43 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:22 pm

Hope not. Scotland already have very generous player resting policies that are pointless if part of that policy is when playing the world champions. Also Haining had 30 minutes at outside centre in a training run Vs Tonga and nothing else since his march injury. He's even less ready to play the Boks. If Watson isn't fit enough to start he's not fit enough to bench either.

All in all. A very very stupid decision.

Watson wasn't just rested though between the Lions tour and now though. He was rehabbing an injury too.

It isn't that unusual for a player coming back from injury not to start 3 or 4 games in a row. FWIW I agree he should be starting.

I suspect that Johnson and Watson are both injured or carrying injuries and didnt need to be risked. Johnson came off in Aussie game and seemed to be injured and Tuipuloto pulled up in training. Watson has been rehabbing since Lions Tour and the the Tonga game was his first game back, looks like he just needs game management, pointless to risk him. I like the idea he can cause some damage coming on after 60mins as long we are still in the fight. I can understand not wanting to throw inexperienced hooker Ashman into only his 2nd game at this level against the World Champs and probably the biggest pack around. McLean for Graham is interesting, I would have gone for Steyn but McLean is a real talent so I can live with the call. My main worry is we get munched up front in first 40 mins.

It's not so much the first 40 I'm worried about, but the last 40 - Bhatti, Ashman, Kebble against Kitshoff, Marx, Koch has the potential to get ugly. The starting front rows are more of a match.

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:32 pm

dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:25 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:43 pm

Watson wasn't just rested though between the Lions tour and now though. He was rehabbing an injury too.

It isn't that unusual for a player coming back from injury not to start 3 or 4 games in a row. FWIW I agree he should be starting.

I suspect that Johnson and Watson are both injured or carrying injuries and didnt need to be risked. Johnson came off in Aussie game and seemed to be injured and Tuipuloto pulled up in training. Watson has been rehabbing since Lions Tour and the the Tonga game was his first game back, looks like he just needs game management, pointless to risk him. I like the idea he can cause some damage coming on after 60mins as long we are still in the fight. I can understand not wanting to throw inexperienced hooker Ashman into only his 2nd game at this level against the World Champs and probably the biggest pack around. McLean for Graham is interesting, I would have gone for Steyn but McLean is a real talent so I can live with the call. My main worry is we get munched up front in first 40 mins.

It's not so much the first 40 I'm worried about, but the last 40 - Bhatti, Ashman, Kebble against Kitshoff, Marx, Koch has the potential to get ugly. The starting front rows are more of a match.

True!

Is there perhaps an element here of Toony making sure we don’t finish the game with an entirely second-string pack? I know Watson won’t make much difference to the set piece, but he is a guy you’d want to be fresh if our pack are getting pushed around.

Nice trio of backs to come on if things loosen up a bit!

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:47 pm Is there perhaps an element here of Toony making sure we don’t finish the game with an entirely second-string pack? I know Watson won’t make much difference to the set piece, but he is a guy you’d want to be fresh if our pack are getting pushed around.

No he's just picked a big pack because he's coaching scared. Nick Haining is a decent player but to pick him over Hamish Watson is just wrong however you cut it.

I thought Watson was quite quiet and was hugely surprised he got MOTM.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:29 pm

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:47 pm Is there perhaps an element here of Toony making sure we don’t finish the game with an entirely second-string pack? I know Watson won’t make much difference to the set piece, but he is a guy you’d want to be fresh if our pack are getting pushed around.

No he's just picked a big pack because he's coaching scared. Nick Haining is a decent player but to pick him over Hamish Watson is just wrong however you cut it.

The Toony tombola has thrown up a lot of weirdness in the past, but Watson and Hogg are the first names on his team sheet. If this isn’t a specific tactical choice (which I’ll allow is a bit of reach) then it has to be that he is carrying an injury.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:32 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:29 pm

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:47 pm Is there perhaps an element here of Toony making sure we don’t finish the game with an entirely second-string pack? I know Watson won’t make much difference to the set piece, but he is a guy you’d want to be fresh if our pack are getting pushed around.

No he's just picked a big pack because he's coaching scared. Nick Haining is a decent player but to pick him over Hamish Watson is just wrong however you cut it.

The Toony tombola has thrown up a lot of weirdness in the past, but Watson and Hogg are the first names on his team sheet. If this isn’t a specific tactical choice (which I’ll allow is a bit of reach) then it has to be that he is carrying an injury.

It's more of a risk to have a guy carrying an injury on the bench than starting though. If they start you control their minutes - could be an early injury like with Turner last week and you're in trouble. I don't believe it is a knock, if so that's just as bad team selection as picking the bigger but worse player.

Toonie’s the best coach we’ve had in the pro era, I think Disco said his win %ages are better than anyone else’s

He knows South Africa and what they bring to the table, I trust he knows what he is doing, whether it comes off or not is another matter, but no selection will be a “wtf, let’s see what happens” pick.
He is meticulous, the odds must be agin us, but I’m still hoping we can keep the ball off their big carriers and play lots of ball-in-play time, run them off their feet

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:00 pm Toonie’s the best coach we’ve had in the pro era, I think Disco said his win %ages are better than anyone else’s

He knows South Africa and what they bring to the table, I trust he knows what he is doing, whether it comes off or not is another matter, but no selection will be a “wtf, let’s see what happens” pick.
He is meticulous, the odds must be agin us, but I’m still hoping we can keep the ball off their big carriers and play lots of ball-in-play time, run them off their feet

I agree 100%, it's crazy to question his judgement at this stage. I didn't see it coming, but he has been with the team for 3 weeks and youve got to trust him to make those calls.

Townsend has led the side for 47 games, 27 of which have been victories. There was one draw — Twickenham 2019, you may remember it — so his success rate stands at a little over 58 per cent, the best of any Scotland coach since the role was created for Bill Dickinson 50 years ago.

Remember that the next time one poor performance draws out that weary old chorus of Townsend Must Go. Remember, too, that the team of Townsend’s era has not been plucking off the sport’s low-hanging fruit. Only 11 of those 47 games were against Tier 2 nations — all the rest were against the sport’s big boys.

Yet perhaps the most remarkable aspect of this relative success is that it has been achieved under a coach who is famously bold when it comes to selecting his teams. The Toony Tombola is a mythical object, but he is never reluctant to give it a spin.

Watson had a run out against Tonga before being subbed and then played against Aussies before again being subbed. That's all the minutes rugby since Lions Tour. He has been nursing an injury since the Tour so needs to be managed. I thought he would be played against Aussies to combat Hooper plus Aussies play a faster and wider game so suited him. SA will play tight forward game with lots of kicking and Haining is like having a second no8 to field box kicks, etc. It makes sense to play a bigger back row at 6 to combat the SA game - Watson will get more space and time when he comes on after 55 or 60 mins to do some damage as game becomes a bit looser. He could have dropped Ritchie to the bench instead but I think we would also be decrying that decision. I don't have a problem with the decision and as an Embra supporter I like that Watson's game time and fitness is being managed carefully.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:00 pm Toonie’s the best coach we’ve had in the pro era, I think Disco said his win %ages are better than anyone else’s

He knows South Africa and what they bring to the table, I trust he knows what he is doing, whether it comes off or not is another matter, but no selection will be a “wtf, let’s see what happens” pick.
He is meticulous, the odds must be agin us, but I’m still hoping we can keep the ball off their big carriers and play lots of ball-in-play time, run them off their feet

I think he's a very good coach, but any view on whether he's had a better ammunition to work with? I recognise, of course, that Townsend plays a role in player development and refinement, but he's ultimately got to go with what he's given.

Appreciate it's going back a bit, but the early 2010s teams didn't have the best of success, and I'd not like to say whether that's down to coaches or differences between players such as Finn Russell and Dan Parks.

Toonie can take a lot of credit for developing the Glasgow players and making them what they are

inactionman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:24 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:00 pm Toonie’s the best coach we’ve had in the pro era, I think Disco said his win %ages are better than anyone else’s

He knows South Africa and what they bring to the table, I trust he knows what he is doing, whether it comes off or not is another matter, but no selection will be a “wtf, let’s see what happens” pick.
He is meticulous, the odds must be agin us, but I’m still hoping we can keep the ball off their big carriers and play lots of ball-in-play time, run them off their feet

I think he's a very good coach, but any view on whether he's had a better ammunition to work with? I recognise, of course, that Townsend plays a role in player development and refinement, but he's ultimately got to go with what he's given.

Appreciate it's going back a bit, but the early 2010s teams didn't have the best of success, and I'd not like to say whether that's down to coaches or differences between players such as Finn Russell and Dan Parks.

I think what stands out for me with Toony is that he took over a team (on the up to be fair) and developed an all action, throw it about, we'll score more than you style. When this stopped working he worked hard on defence and pulled back on the attack and developed a team that has conceded the least points in the last 2 6N (unfortunately this rebuilding coincided with the WC). He is now finding a balance and again being very successful. I think that's remarkable for any coach, particularly an international one.

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:30 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:24 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:00 pm Toonie’s the best coach we’ve had in the pro era, I think Disco said his win %ages are better than anyone else’s

He knows South Africa and what they bring to the table, I trust he knows what he is doing, whether it comes off or not is another matter, but no selection will be a “wtf, let’s see what happens” pick.
He is meticulous, the odds must be agin us, but I’m still hoping we can keep the ball off their big carriers and play lots of ball-in-play time, run them off their feet

I think he's a very good coach, but any view on whether he's had a better ammunition to work with? I recognise, of course, that Townsend plays a role in player development and refinement, but he's ultimately got to go with what he's given.

Appreciate it's going back a bit, but the early 2010s teams didn't have the best of success, and I'd not like to say whether that's down to coaches or differences between players such as Finn Russell and Dan Parks.

I think what stands out for me with Toony is that he took over a team (on the up to be fair) and developed an all action, throw it about, we'll score more than you style. When this stopped working he worked hard on defence and pulled back on the attack and developed a team that has conceded the least points in the last 2 6N (unfortunately this rebuilding coincided with the WC). He is now finding a balance and again being very successful. I think that's remarkable for any coach, particularly an international one.

He needs to win a 6N title. Big ask perhaps, but then Wales won the last one and they were no better than us. It’s not impossible.

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:30 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:24 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:00 pm Toonie’s the best coach we’ve had in the pro era, I think Disco said his win %ages are better than anyone else’s

He knows South Africa and what they bring to the table, I trust he knows what he is doing, whether it comes off or not is another matter, but no selection will be a “wtf, let’s see what happens” pick.
He is meticulous, the odds must be agin us, but I’m still hoping we can keep the ball off their big carriers and play lots of ball-in-play time, run them off their feet

I think he's a very good coach, but any view on whether he's had a better ammunition to work with? I recognise, of course, that Townsend plays a role in player development and refinement, but he's ultimately got to go with what he's given.

Appreciate it's going back a bit, but the early 2010s teams didn't have the best of success, and I'd not like to say whether that's down to coaches or differences between players such as Finn Russell and Dan Parks.

I think what stands out for me with Toony is that he took over a team (on the up to be fair) and developed an all action, throw it about, we'll score more than you style. When this stopped working he worked hard on defence and pulled back on the attack and developed a team that has conceded the least points in the last 2 6N (unfortunately this rebuilding coincided with the WC). He is now finding a balance and again being very successful. I think that's remarkable for any coach, particularly an international one.

I think we got lucky Taylor left off his own back. Townsend wasn't for shifting him. He and the fans won a watch when Rennie took Taylor with him.

Haining and Matt Fagerson getting dominated in contact and no turnover threat. At least we dropped out best flanker for their bulk though.

We've been totally humped this is an awful performance. Very poor team selection. Haining obviously wasn't going to make a difference but he just had to play over Watson? How about you pick your best players Townsend?

"We know how not to play South Africa" and then get absolutely smashed - and I mean smashed - at set piece and get soundly beaten. Embarrassing.

We looked like a team that had never been coached. Awful display, just panic and no structure.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:10 pm Haining and Matt Fagerson getting dominated in contact and no turnover threat. At least we dropped out best flanker for their bulk though.

Fagerson provides nothing at the breakdown. I just don't get what Townsend sees.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:50 pm We looked like a team that had never been coached. Awful display, just panic and no structure.

The plan was clearly get parity with their pack (see Haining being selected) and then go expansive from there. Which was obviously doomed from the start.

We won't get parity with SA even with Haining. Play your best players Gregor. It will help!

That was fuckin pish. Set piece was rancid, Russell was awful, Matt Scott answered the question of why he hasn't been picked for years, Haining was a waste of a shirt, both Fagersons not much better. We have no attacking structure at all.

Begbie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:55 pm That was fuckin pish. Set piece was rancid, Russell was awful, Matt Scott answered the question of why he hasn't been picked for years, Haining was a waste of a shirt, both Fagersons not much better. We have no attacking structure at all.

I thought that was the usual game pplan?

SaintK wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:59 pm

Begbie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:55 pm That was fuckin pish. Set piece was rancid, Russell was awful, Matt Scott answered the question of why he hasn't been picked for years, Haining was a waste of a shirt, both Fagersons not much better. We have no attacking structure at all.

I thought that was the usual game pplan?

It was when Toony first came in but he reigned in the "organised chaos". Today was just chaos.

Begbie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:04 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:59 pm

Begbie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:55 pm That was fuckin pish. Set piece was rancid, Russell was awful, Matt Scott answered the question of why he hasn't been picked for years, Haining was a waste of a shirt, both Fagersons not much better. We have no attacking structure at all.

I thought that was the usual game pplan?

It was when Toony first came in but he reigned in the "organised chaos". Today was just chaos.

Not really sure how long Russell gets a free pass for these sort of displays. Awful today and we won despite him last week. We are lucky if he puts in one great display in 5 which is not acceptable

Begbie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:55 pm That was fuckin pish. Set piece was rancid, Russell was awful, Matt Scott answered the question of why he hasn't been picked for years, Haining was a waste of a shirt, both Fagersons not much better. We have no attacking structure at all.

That’s bang on!

Just back. That was disappointing.

First half we were poor, conceded shit loads of penalties, missed 2 easy kicks, and a shocking bit of defending from McLean, but were ahead. Really thought we would push on.

The most frustrating thing, and something we seem to still be doing a lot, is that we don’t just make one mistake and move on. We make 3 or 4 in a row and put ourselves under pressure. Twice in the 2nd half we were on their line, four mistakes in a row, including two penalties, and suddenly they have scored at the other end.

Was Finn that bad then? Missed a couple of easy kicks obviously but didn’t notice that much else at the game.

I did notice that the back line really missed Sam Johnson

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:45 pm Was Finn that bad then? Missed a couple of easy kicks obviously but didn’t notice that much else at the game.

I did notice that the back line really missed Sam Johnson

He wasn't that bad, he wasn't good. But I don't think it's his problem the forwards were just lobbing it to the floor or just gettint absolutely monstered.

The third best team in the world going to get a bit of a shoeing at Twickenham.