NPR

clydecloggie wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 9:49 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:47 am Rayner greenlights City Airport expansion against the wishes of Labour run Newham council. Very positive news, roll on Heathrow

City Airport is an overcrowded shithole at the best of times so I must admit I dread what it will be like with even bigger passenger numbers.

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:47 am Rayner greenlights City Airport expansion against the wishes of Labour run Newham council. Very positive news, roll on Heathrow

SaintK wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 11:35 am

clydecloggie wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 9:49 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:47 am Rayner greenlights City Airport expansion against the wishes of Labour run Newham council. Very positive news, roll on Heathrow

City Airport is an overcrowded shithole at the best of times so I must admit I dread what it will be like with even bigger passenger numbers.

Name me one that's not an overcrowded shithole.
Haven't flown anywhere for 7 years or so but always thought City was fine for city hops on business.

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 11:39 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:47 am Rayner greenlights City Airport expansion against the wishes of Labour run Newham council. Very positive news, roll on Heathrow

Not sure how that one squares away with Net Zero...

SaintK wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 11:35 am

clydecloggie wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 9:49 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:47 am Rayner greenlights City Airport expansion against the wishes of Labour run Newham council. Very positive news, roll on Heathrow

City Airport is an overcrowded shithole at the best of times so I must admit I dread what it will be like with even bigger passenger numbers.

Name me one that's not an overcrowded shithole.
Haven't flown anywhere for 7 years or so but always thought City was fine for city hops on business.

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 11:39 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:47 am Rayner greenlights City Airport expansion against the wishes of Labour run Newham council. Very positive news, roll on Heathrow

Not sure how that one squares away with Net Zero...

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:34 pm If we built HS2 in full as initially proposed, the chances of City needing to expand would have been very slim. But we haven’t so we are where we are

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:34 pm If we built HS2 in full as initially proposed, the chances of City needing to expand would have been very slim. But we haven’t so we are where we are

petej wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:57 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:34 pm If we built HS2 in full as initially proposed, the chances of City needing to expand would have been very slim. But we haven’t so we are where we are

We don't have the people or workforce to do railways at a national level. We have thousands of accountants, lawyers, consultants and the like but fuck all welders etc.. and by the time the former have had their share of the money there really isn't enough to build a railway at any rate. Ditto on stuff like nuclear power plants.

petej wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:57 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:34 pm If we built HS2 in full as initially proposed, the chances of City needing to expand would have been very slim. But we haven’t so we are where we are

We don't have the people or workforce to do railways at a national level. We have thousands of accountants, lawyers, consultants and the like but fuck all welders etc.. and by the time the former have had their share of the money there really isn't enough to build a railway at any rate. Ditto on stuff like nuclear power plants.

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 4:05 pm

petej wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:57 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:34 pm If we built HS2 in full as initially proposed, the chances of City needing to expand would have been very slim. But we haven’t so we are where we are

We don't have the people or workforce to do railways at a national level. We have thousands of accountants, lawyers, consultants and the like but fuck all welders etc.. and by the time the former have had their share of the money there really isn't enough to build a railway at any rate. Ditto on stuff like nuclear power plants.

Half true, half not. We have the people and the workforce to build excellent rail infrastructure, it just takes forever because of the regulatory structure so we get far less bang for our buck. Some of the HS2 engineering near me is superb, Lizzie Line gets enough plaudits to be self evident, even on a smaller scale the new station at Brent Cross is very well done.

petej wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 5:15 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 4:05 pm

petej wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:57 pm
We don't have the people or workforce to do railways at a national level. We have thousands of accountants, lawyers, consultants and the like but fuck all welders etc.. and by the time the former have had their share of the money there really isn't enough to build a railway at any rate. Ditto on stuff like nuclear power plants.

Half true, half not. We have the people and the workforce to build excellent rail infrastructure, it just takes forever because of the regulatory structure so we get far less bang for our buck. Some of the HS2 engineering near me is superb, Lizzie Line gets enough plaudits to be self evident, even on a smaller scale the new station at Brent Cross is very well done.

Blaming the regulators is easy so everyone does it. In my experience the regulators are fine and best dealt with directly but if you don't have a project with useful specialist equivalents you are fucked. You end up dealing with legal people who frequently interpret regulation insanely/impractically and consultancies making it unnecessarily complex (I guess that is what you mean by regulatory structures). If you have someone who will smash through that, the regulator is typically fine.

The mess of ownership, responsibilities and structures around Hinckley C makes it near impossible to come to sensible engineering decisions at times so not surprised the ONR would be twitchy particularly after the first person they speak to will be a project manager type who might have tried to bluff.

On crossrail - TFL have a enough people experienced at actually doing things (and booted useless people) which will help massively. Elsewhere we've kind of lost that practical underlying understanding of dealing with real things and owning it. New government will help by actually making decisions.

I'm just pissed off at work having had a package of work held up for no fucking reason for four months by various commercial and financial departments incompetence or as others call them the disabling functions.

inactionman wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:20 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:34 pm If we built HS2 in full as initially proposed, the chances of City needing to expand would have been very slim. But we haven’t so we are where we are

Would HS2 help that much? There's only Glasgow and Edinburgh as mainland UK destinations from City airport and HS2 would mainly improve the Glasgow side.

They can only land smaller commercial airplanes there (I think up to Airbus A318 size, but many will be turboprop), so it's not going to be long-haul, but there are many short hop flights to continental Europe.

I will admit I've only ever flown to City from Edinburgh which is certainly viable by train, I assume there's many travellers from Glasgow who would forgo flights if the train was faster (and cheaper)

clydecloggie wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:44 pm I've flown to City from Glasgow and certainly wouldn't do that with a better train offer. In fact I've chosen Eurostar many times over flying on my regular London - Rotterdam trip because journey times are decent and prices competitive if you buy well in advance. Ironically the main thing making me hesitate each time is that St. Pancras is an overcrowded shithole when boarding.

On Net Zero, btw, there is a start up aiming to offer flights from Rotterdam to London City on a fully battery-powered plane within the next few years. I would be in the market for that, but expect them to be novelty pricey initially.

Slick wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:07 amIt's absolutely fucking outrageous that a flight is cheaper than any train journey in the UK.

inactionman wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:31 am Just as an aside and a heads-up, I went down to London over the weekend and LNER offer a family return of £97 each way for 2 adults and 2 kids.

The train was delayed by 35 minutes on the way back, so with 50% refund for that leg it worked out at less than £150 for the 4 of us.

Usual disasters with points failures and cancellations meant both trains were packed to the gills, although we were lucky in that our trains weren't directly impacted, but such issues seem to be an ongoing problem with UK trains.

duke wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:34 am

inactionman wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:31 am Just as an aside and a heads-up, I went down to London over the weekend and LNER offer a family return of £97 each way for 2 adults and 2 kids.

The train was delayed by 35 minutes on the way back, so with 50% refund for that leg it worked out at less than £150 for the 4 of us.

Usual disasters with points failures and cancellations meant both trains were packed to the gills, although we were lucky in that our trains weren't directly impacted, but such issues seem to be an ongoing problem with UK trains.

I saw a tweet recently about LNER removing the vast majority of fare discounts soon which will make the East Coast main line even less economical.

duke wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:34 am

inactionman wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:31 am Just as an aside and a heads-up, I went down to London over the weekend and LNER offer a family return of £97 each way for 2 adults and 2 kids.

The train was delayed by 35 minutes on the way back, so with 50% refund for that leg it worked out at less than £150 for the 4 of us.

Usual disasters with points failures and cancellations meant both trains were packed to the gills, although we were lucky in that our trains weren't directly impacted, but such issues seem to be an ongoing problem with UK trains.

I saw a tweet recently about LNER removing the vast majority of fare discounts soon which will make the East Coast main line even less economical.

epwc wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:12 am

Slick wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:07 amIt's absolutely fucking outrageous that a flight is cheaper than any train journey in the UK.

This. It's immoral, and makes no sense. We did Italy by rail a few years ago every stop was at a rail station in the centre of town, no hassles getting to hotel/airbnb just really easy.

Whenever I've been to Glasgow or Edinburgh it's always been to the centre. Rail should be the only sane option.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 10:22 amItaly built a high speed network! No shock that it now blows domestic aviation out of the water! We were concerned that a few trees might have to be chopped down to build one, so we are often forced to fly instead.

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 10:33 am I'm not convinced "forced" is the right word. I haven't flown for 16 years.

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 10:33 am I'm not convinced "forced" is the right word. I haven't flown for 16 years.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 11:14 am

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 10:33 am I'm not convinced "forced" is the right word. I haven't flown for 16 years.

It depends on time and money. I much prefer travelling to Glasgow by train, but I don’t always have £120+ and 10+ hours available for the round trip.

Likewise I would love to always head to the continent by train but it just isn’t practical right now.

TedMaul wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 11:18 amThe bonus was it got back over an hour late so got 100% refund. What a mad system…

TedMaul wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 11:18 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 11:14 am

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 10:33 am I'm not convinced "forced" is the right word. I haven't flown for 16 years.

It depends on time and money. I much prefer travelling to Glasgow by train, but I don’t always have £120+ and 10+ hours available for the round trip.

Likewise I would love to always head to the continent by train but it just isn’t practical right now.

100%, same. Last time I was up at St Andrews decided to train it as match was over in time to get back and the journey is enjoyable. The bonus was it got back over an hour late so got 100% refund. What a mad system…

TedMaul wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 11:48 am Really not even a hotel

robmatic wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 12:06 pm When I travel back to the UK, the smart and connected way would be to arrive in Manchester Airport, exit the terminal and jump on the train that takes you directly to my local station in Yorkshire. Unfortunately, that train service is Trans Pennine Express, so it is slow, crowded, and unreliable. It is also not cheap. All manageable if I'm travelling solo but as a family and with a small child it becomes a big nope from me.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 1:25 pmAlso you can't take bicycles on the TGV anymore so my easy cycling holidays of Eurostar/TGV then cycle out of the station are long gone. Last time I cycled in France we drove to Mont Ventoux as we worked out that was the easiest option for 2 people with bikes. That's criminal.

epwc wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 1:27 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 1:25 pmAlso you can't take bicycles on the TGV anymore so my easy cycling holidays of Eurostar/TGV then cycle out of the station are long gone. Last time I cycled in France we drove to Mont Ventoux as we worked out that was the easiest option for 2 people with bikes. That's criminal.

I didn't know that, that is stupid

I like neeps wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 7:19 am

inactionman wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:20 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:34 pm If we built HS2 in full as initially proposed, the chances of City needing to expand would have been very slim. But we haven’t so we are where we are

Would HS2 help that much? There's only Glasgow and Edinburgh as mainland UK destinations from City airport and HS2 would mainly improve the Glasgow side.

They can only land smaller commercial airplanes there (I think up to Airbus A318 size, but many will be turboprop), so it's not going to be long-haul, but there are many short hop flights to continental Europe.

I will admit I've only ever flown to City from Edinburgh which is certainly viable by train, I assume there's many travellers from Glasgow who would forgo flights if the train was faster (and cheaper)

No we'd need a hugely expanded channel tunnel and high speed rail infrastructure into and across Europe. Most City flights are to Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Milan, Dublin etc.

Biffer wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 2:13 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 7:19 am

inactionman wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:20 pm

Would HS2 help that much? There's only Glasgow and Edinburgh as mainland UK destinations from City airport and HS2 would mainly improve the Glasgow side.

They can only land smaller commercial airplanes there (I think up to Airbus A318 size, but many will be turboprop), so it's not going to be long-haul, but there are many short hop flights to continental Europe.

I will admit I've only ever flown to City from Edinburgh which is certainly viable by train, I assume there's many travellers from Glasgow who would forgo flights if the train was faster (and cheaper)

No we'd need a hugely expanded channel tunnel and high speed rail infrastructure into and across Europe. Most City flights are to Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Milan, Dublin etc.

The big miss with the channel tunnel is it not taking sleeper trains. They were dying out when it was designed and built so you can't really blame them. But if I was able to take a sleeper to Amsterdam, Paris, even Berlin, I'd do that.