NPR

Some times you just get pumped in the set piece. Not a lot you can do with that. Ashman if I recall didn't get any easy throws like McInally did to Schoeman. Bit of a lesson for him, but that's international rugby.

Defence was mostly good, two errors cost us tries. Again McLean given a lesson but he'll learn.

A bit like last week, it wasn't really clear what the game plan was, could just be me though. Hard to judge the backs based on so poor ball but Scott didn't suggest the decision not to include him for a while was wrong. If Johnson isn't fit, I'd rather see Finn there than him v Japan.

Felt like SA had gears they could move throw if need be.

Last week we played poorly and won, this week played poorly and lost. Set piece will get a lot of the blame but next week there really needs to be some clear patterns and a bit of accuracy. We really haven't been too accurate over the last couple of weeks.

Actually in Embra today, but unable to watch the game, ironically. Disappointing result, though they kept it pretty tight until fairly late in the game.

The general suggestion seems to be that the selections we suspected might be a bit duff were a bit duff. And we tried to play SA at their own game, despite this being an obviously bad idea.

Hey ho. We should still win 3 out of 4, but the depressing things are the England result (putting last week into more perspective) and the Ireland result (showing we are still way off their level).

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:46 pm
Hey ho. We should still win 3 out of 4, but the depressing things are the England result (putting last week into more perspective) and the Ireland result (showing we are still way off their level).

Australia were lucky we were off our best last week. We should have scudded them. Wales might if they've checked out of the tour.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:46 pm Actually in Embra today, but unable to watch the game, ironically. Disappointing result, though they kept it pretty tight until fairly late in the game.

The general suggestion seems to be that the selections we suspected might be a bit duff were a bit duff. And we tried to play SA at their own game, despite this being an obviously bad idea.

Hey ho. We should still win 3 out of 4, but the depressing things are the England result (putting last week into more perspective) and the Ireland result (showing we are still way off their level).

Not at all. England were far from convincing, and seemed to have the ref's favour.

We got mullered in the set piece by the world champions. That was, fundamentally, the difference today.

I get sick of the way people talk pish about individual mistakes, players they have issues with etc. We got mullered in the scrum and mucked up our own lineout. That’s why we lost.

Talk pish around the fringes of that as much as you like, but those are the reasons we lost.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:46 pm Actually in Embra today, but unable to watch the game, ironically. Disappointing result, though they kept it pretty tight until fairly late in the game.

The general suggestion seems to be that the selections we suspected might be a bit duff were a bit duff. And we tried to play SA at their own game, despite this being an obviously bad idea.

Hey ho. We should still win 3 out of 4, but the depressing things are the England result (putting last week into more perspective) and the Ireland result (showing we are still way off their level).

I’ve just finished watching the England game and I don’t think I’ve ever seen an Australia team play as bad, I don’t at this stage fear England.

Ireland looked another level to anything in the NH today though, even if it isn’t a vintage NZ team.

Back to our game and I have to say that I didn’t get the feeling that any individual played particularly badly today watching it live. It was a lot of daft penalties and silly mistakes with is a frustrating step backwards. I also suspected we might miss Johnson badly, and so it was, he is so important to that backline.

An area we were really poor at was fielding the high balls. SA won every single 50/50 and most of the others as well

I’m not going to comment on today’s result/s but anyone who doesn’t think that we desperately need at-least one more pro team, by whatever means, needs their bumps felt.

Tattie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:30 am I’m not going to comment on today’s result/s but anyone who doesn’t think that we desperately need at-least one more pro team, by whatever means, needs their bumps felt.

I'll happily have another pro team.

Where's the money coming from?

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:07 am

Tattie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:30 am I’m not going to comment on today’s result/s but anyone who doesn’t think that we desperately need at-least one more pro team, by whatever means, needs their bumps felt.

I'll happily have another pro team.

Where's the money coming from?

and where are the players coming from even if Gregor wins the Euro lottery?

I'd have four or five teams if we had the resources, a full league of 12 with relegation would be even better.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:07 am

Tattie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:30 am I’m not going to comment on today’s result/s but anyone who doesn’t think that we desperately need at-least one more pro team, by whatever means, needs their bumps felt.

I'll happily have another pro team.

Where's the money coming from?

Exactly. Unless you are willing to put up the £6m+ per year personally then all you are doing is shouting that we should use other people's money to solve the problem. It's unhelpful to be honest that this is the reaction to every loss. We all know we need another team, but unless you can solve the finance issue what are you actually saying?

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:37 pm Some times you just get pumped in the set piece. Not a lot you can do with that. Ashman if I recall didn't get any easy throws like McInally did to Schoeman. Bit of a lesson for him, but that's international rugby.

Defence was mostly good, two errors cost us tries. Again McLean given a lesson but he'll learn.

A bit like last week, it wasn't really clear what the game plan was, could just be me though. Hard to judge the backs based on so poor ball but Scott didn't suggest the decision not to include him for a while was wrong. If Johnson isn't fit, I'd rather see Finn there than him v Japan.

Felt like SA had gears they could move throw if need be.

Last week we played poorly and won, this week played poorly and lost. Set piece will get a lot of the blame but next week there really needs to be some clear patterns and a bit of accuracy. We really haven't been too accurate over the last couple of weeks.

I think it's important to understand that the reason the attacking play looked so poor was because SA made it so. We had very little clean quick ball, we had an exceptional rush defence in our faces every phase, when a man was tackled he was invariably physically dominated so our shape was disrupted every phase. It's not that the attacking gameplan wasn't there as such, it's that we were so utterly dominated that we had zero time or space to execute it. That was why we saw so many terrible loose passes - they were playing variations of set moves but when they tried to throw the pass the man wasn't there, or was marked by a rush defender, or the man throwing the pass had been smashed backward several meters and out of the line. it was brutal.

The next World Cup is going to be a humiliating experience if we don't work out how to play this kind of team. We may find ourselves in the position of having the best team and squad we have had in the professional era playing the two teams they are worst equipped to play in the groups. We have two more games vs Ireland (I think?) and possibly none vs. SA prior to then. Wish us luck!

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:16 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:07 am

Tattie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:30 am I’m not going to comment on today’s result/s but anyone who doesn’t think that we desperately need at-least one more pro team, by whatever means, needs their bumps felt.

I'll happily have another pro team.

Where's the money coming from?

and where are the players coming from even if Gregor wins the Euro lottery?

I'd have four or five teams if we had the resources, a full league of 12 with relegation would be even better.

I heard last night that the new Glasgow Super 6/8 team is going to be pretty much a Scotland A side with the vast majority of players coming from already centrally funded players. Much needed game time for some of those guys i guess

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:27 am

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:37 pm Some times you just get pumped in the set piece. Not a lot you can do with that. Ashman if I recall didn't get any easy throws like McInally did to Schoeman. Bit of a lesson for him, but that's international rugby.

Defence was mostly good, two errors cost us tries. Again McLean given a lesson but he'll learn.

A bit like last week, it wasn't really clear what the game plan was, could just be me though. Hard to judge the backs based on so poor ball but Scott didn't suggest the decision not to include him for a while was wrong. If Johnson isn't fit, I'd rather see Finn there than him v Japan.

Felt like SA had gears they could move throw if need be.

Last week we played poorly and won, this week played poorly and lost. Set piece will get a lot of the blame but next week there really needs to be some clear patterns and a bit of accuracy. We really haven't been too accurate over the last couple of weeks.

I think it's important to understand that the reason the attacking play looked so poor was because SA made it so. We had very little clean quick ball, we had an exceptional rush defence in our faces every phase, when a man was tackled he was invariably physically dominated so our shape was disrupted every phase. It's not that the attacking gameplan wasn't there as such, it's that we were so utterly dominated that we had zero time or space to execute it. That was why we saw so many terrible loose passes - they were playing variations of set moves but when they tried to throw the pass the man wasn't there, or was marked by a rush defender, or the man throwing the pass had been smashed backward several meters and out of the line. it was brutal.

The next World Cup is going to be a humiliating experience if we don't work out how to play this kind of team. We may find ourselves in the position of having the best team and squad we have had in the professional era playing the two teams they are worst equipped to play in the groups. We have two more games vs Ireland (I think?) and possibly none vs. SA prior to then. Wish us luck!

We weren't overly accurate last week either, and the Aussie defence wasn't as abrasive. Our attacking hasn't been sharp over the last two weeks.

Like you say, we need to work out how to play these teams. In his 6 years in the job, plus the Lions tour, GT still hasn't come up with an effective game plan to look like doing so. SA had several gears in their back pocket yesterday.

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:47 am

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:27 am

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:37 pm Some times you just get pumped in the set piece. Not a lot you can do with that. Ashman if I recall didn't get any easy throws like McInally did to Schoeman. Bit of a lesson for him, but that's international rugby.

Defence was mostly good, two errors cost us tries. Again McLean given a lesson but he'll learn.

A bit like last week, it wasn't really clear what the game plan was, could just be me though. Hard to judge the backs based on so poor ball but Scott didn't suggest the decision not to include him for a while was wrong. If Johnson isn't fit, I'd rather see Finn there than him v Japan.

Felt like SA had gears they could move throw if need be.

Last week we played poorly and won, this week played poorly and lost. Set piece will get a lot of the blame but next week there really needs to be some clear patterns and a bit of accuracy. We really haven't been too accurate over the last couple of weeks.

I think it's important to understand that the reason the attacking play looked so poor was because SA made it so. We had very little clean quick ball, we had an exceptional rush defence in our faces every phase, when a man was tackled he was invariably physically dominated so our shape was disrupted every phase. It's not that the attacking gameplan wasn't there as such, it's that we were so utterly dominated that we had zero time or space to execute it. That was why we saw so many terrible loose passes - they were playing variations of set moves but when they tried to throw the pass the man wasn't there, or was marked by a rush defender, or the man throwing the pass had been smashed backward several meters and out of the line. it was brutal.

The next World Cup is going to be a humiliating experience if we don't work out how to play this kind of team. We may find ourselves in the position of having the best team and squad we have had in the professional era playing the two teams they are worst equipped to play in the groups. We have two more games vs Ireland (I think?) and possibly none vs. SA prior to then. Wish us luck!

We weren't overly accurate last week either, and the Aussie defence wasn't as abrasive. Our attacking hasn't been sharp over the last two weeks.

Like you say, we need to work out how to play these teams. In his 6 years in the job, plus the Lions tour, GT still hasn't come up with an effective game plan to look like doing so. SA had several gears in their back pocket yesterday.

I don't really agree that South Africa played below anything but their best yesterday, I thought they excelled at what we expected of them - massive set piece dominance and white-hot defensive pressure, scoring from distance and taken the threes when they come up, just as they did in the summer.

I pretty much agree with KB's take on the match, when we did get a couple of pieces of raised-tempo broken play we made ground or scored, but as often or not we then got slowed down or turned over at the breakdown.

Without any kind of up front platform we were never in that game, or at least not looking like winning it, we were in touch at half time, it looked like we were turning the first quarter onslaught, but all week it was apparent that it was all about the 23 and not the 15 players who started.

The Boks were really very good yesterday. It was always going to be tough, but without Sutherland, Gray and Cummings, Rambo not at his best and Brown and presumably Turner not available it became too big a hill to climb, not that they would have reversed the result btw.


I hope we go pretty close to full team next week

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:35 am
I don't really agree that South Africa played below anything but their best yesterday, I thought they excelled at what we expected of them - massive set piece dominance and white-hot defensive pressure, scoring from distance and taken the threes when they come up, just as they did in the summer.

I pretty much agree with KB's take on the match, when we did get a couple of pieces of raised-tempo broken play we made ground or scored, but as often or not we then got slowed down or turned over at the breakdown.

Without any kind of up front platform we were never in that game, or at least not looking like winning it, we were in touch at half time, it looked like we were turning the first quarter onslaught, but all week it was apparent that it was all about the 23 and not the 15 players who started.

The Boks were really very good yesterday. It was always going to be tough, but without Sutherland, Gray and Cummings, Rambo not at his best and Brown and presumably Turner not available it became too big a hill to climb, not that they would have reversed the result btw.


I hope we go pretty close to full team next week

I honestly don't think the Boks were close to their best yesterday. Their set piece and defence is what their game is based on and was strong as expected but they weren't that impressive outside of that.

Checked the match thread to see what the Saffa guys were saying and they weren't overly impressed with their team.

Doesn't really matter I guess, we weren't close to good enough ourselves.

Agree next week needs to the as close to first choice as we have fit.

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:47 am

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:27 am

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:37 pm Some times you just get pumped in the set piece. Not a lot you can do with that. Ashman if I recall didn't get any easy throws like McInally did to Schoeman. Bit of a lesson for him, but that's international rugby.

Defence was mostly good, two errors cost us tries. Again McLean given a lesson but he'll learn.

A bit like last week, it wasn't really clear what the game plan was, could just be me though. Hard to judge the backs based on so poor ball but Scott didn't suggest the decision not to include him for a while was wrong. If Johnson isn't fit, I'd rather see Finn there than him v Japan.

Felt like SA had gears they could move throw if need be.

Last week we played poorly and won, this week played poorly and lost. Set piece will get a lot of the blame but next week there really needs to be some clear patterns and a bit of accuracy. We really haven't been too accurate over the last couple of weeks.

I think it's important to understand that the reason the attacking play looked so poor was because SA made it so. We had very little clean quick ball, we had an exceptional rush defence in our faces every phase, when a man was tackled he was invariably physically dominated so our shape was disrupted every phase. It's not that the attacking gameplan wasn't there as such, it's that we were so utterly dominated that we had zero time or space to execute it. That was why we saw so many terrible loose passes - they were playing variations of set moves but when they tried to throw the pass the man wasn't there, or was marked by a rush defender, or the man throwing the pass had been smashed backward several meters and out of the line. it was brutal.

The next World Cup is going to be a humiliating experience if we don't work out how to play this kind of team. We may find ourselves in the position of having the best team and squad we have had in the professional era playing the two teams they are worst equipped to play in the groups. We have two more games vs Ireland (I think?) and possibly none vs. SA prior to then. Wish us luck!

We weren't overly accurate last week either, and the Aussie defence wasn't as abrasive. Our attacking hasn't been sharp over the last two weeks.

Like you say, we need to work out how to play these teams. In his 6 years in the job, plus the Lions tour, GT still hasn't come up with an effective game plan to look like doing so. SA had several gears in their back pocket yesterday.

To balance out my own pessimism, Sexton was excellent as per yesterday. Surely he can’t still be pulling that out the bag at the WC when he is 38? Carbery was/is good, but he isn’t Sexton. Sexton, for all we love to hate him, is a generational (whinging shitebag) talent.

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:08 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:35 am
I don't really agree that South Africa played below anything but their best yesterday, I thought they excelled at what we expected of them - massive set piece dominance and white-hot defensive pressure, scoring from distance and taken the threes when they come up, just as they did in the summer.

I pretty much agree with KB's take on the match, when we did get a couple of pieces of raised-tempo broken play we made ground or scored, but as often or not we then got slowed down or turned over at the breakdown.

Without any kind of up front platform we were never in that game, or at least not looking like winning it, we were in touch at half time, it looked like we were turning the first quarter onslaught, but all week it was apparent that it was all about the 23 and not the 15 players who started.

The Boks were really very good yesterday. It was always going to be tough, but without Sutherland, Gray and Cummings, Rambo not at his best and Brown and presumably Turner not available it became too big a hill to climb, not that they would have reversed the result btw.


I hope we go pretty close to full team next week

I honestly don't think the Boks were close to their best yesterday. Their set piece and defence is what their game is based on and was strong as expected but they weren't that impressive outside of that.

Checked the match thread to see what the Saffa guys were saying and they weren't overly impressed with their team.

Doesn't really matter I guess, we weren't close to good enough ourselves.

Agree next week needs to the as close to first choice as we have fit.

Alternatively they didn't need to play very well to beat us quite comfortably. I think the biggest difference was when they took off their 9 and started Reinach in the second half who didn't make a load of mistakes and was just better.

You can't win when your scrum is as badly beaten as ours. Or you miss key lineouts. Or give easy points away with two individual defensive errors. I thought the attack was actually quite good. We asked a lot of questions.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:27 am

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:37 pm Some times you just get pumped in the set piece. Not a lot you can do with that. Ashman if I recall didn't get any easy throws like McInally did to Schoeman. Bit of a lesson for him, but that's international rugby.

Defence was mostly good, two errors cost us tries. Again McLean given a lesson but he'll learn.

A bit like last week, it wasn't really clear what the game plan was, could just be me though. Hard to judge the backs based on so poor ball but Scott didn't suggest the decision not to include him for a while was wrong. If Johnson isn't fit, I'd rather see Finn there than him v Japan.

Felt like SA had gears they could move throw if need be.

Last week we played poorly and won, this week played poorly and lost. Set piece will get a lot of the blame but next week there really needs to be some clear patterns and a bit of accuracy. We really haven't been too accurate over the last couple of weeks.

I think it's important to understand that the reason the attacking play looked so poor was because SA made it so. We had very little clean quick ball, we had an exceptional rush defence in our faces every phase, when a man was tackled he was invariably physically dominated so our shape was disrupted every phase. It's not that the attacking gameplan wasn't there as such, it's that we were so utterly dominated that we had zero time or space to execute it. That was why we saw so many terrible loose passes - they were playing variations of set moves but when they tried to throw the pass the man wasn't there, or was marked by a rush defender, or the man throwing the pass had been smashed backward several meters and out of the line. it was brutal.

The next World Cup is going to be a humiliating experience if we don't work out how to play this kind of team. We may find ourselves in the position of having the best team and squad we have had in the professional era playing the two teams they are worst equipped to play in the groups. We have two more games vs Ireland (I think?) and possibly none vs. SA prior to then. Wish us luck!

I think your last paragraph is right on the money. For all the progress we have made as a team (and there has been lots) we are no closer to figuring out how to counter a team who simply dominate us physically and strangle the life out of us. It’s no accident that the one regular opponent we haven’t beaten in the Toony era is Ireland, and they play in a similar style to SA. We don’t seem to have a clue how to play them (we may be in good company of course, as NZ seem to struggle against the same teams).

As you say, we have to figure out a game plan for these matches, and we have two years to do it. If we can’t, then we aren’t getting out of our group. It’s that simple. We got utterly shafted by the ludicrously early seeding (which may have been WR’s intention of course) and shafted again by the draw, but we are where we are.

Sexton may not make another RWC, but we all know Ireland have a conveyor belt from their provinces and they won’t get any worse in the next two years. There’s more of a chance we will.

SA do the same thing to every team they play, that's why they are world champs and world number one. The most powerful team normally wins rugby games and it's only really Australia that buck this trend with any regularity. I'm not saying it's not an issue we should be desperately trying to remedy, just it's not unique to us.

Much as it hurts, we need to look at Ireland as a model of where we want to be. It seems that anyone coming into that team already knows exactly what their job is and the way they should be playing because it is fed in all the way down the system. I'm sure we must have something similar, but it obviously doesn't work as well. The main thing I noticed with Ireland on Saturday was their accuracy at breakdowns. Every time they seemed to have 2 guys waiting to hit the ruck in tandem and secure the ball immediately. There was no real room for NZ to exploit any advantage they had in power because it was blocked off before they had a chance. We need to keep being innovative and creative to compete but it sometimes feels this comes at the expense of some basics.

In saying all that there are a lot of positives as well. Our defence is brilliant and everyone is shit scared of us in attack because they have no idea what is coming. I'm convinced we are close and as usual, lets not forget where we were not that long ago.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:18 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:27 am

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:37 pm Some times you just get pumped in the set piece. Not a lot you can do with that. Ashman if I recall didn't get any easy throws like McInally did to Schoeman. Bit of a lesson for him, but that's international rugby.

Defence was mostly good, two errors cost us tries. Again McLean given a lesson but he'll learn.

A bit like last week, it wasn't really clear what the game plan was, could just be me though. Hard to judge the backs based on so poor ball but Scott didn't suggest the decision not to include him for a while was wrong. If Johnson isn't fit, I'd rather see Finn there than him v Japan.

Felt like SA had gears they could move throw if need be.

Last week we played poorly and won, this week played poorly and lost. Set piece will get a lot of the blame but next week there really needs to be some clear patterns and a bit of accuracy. We really haven't been too accurate over the last couple of weeks.

I think it's important to understand that the reason the attacking play looked so poor was because SA made it so. We had very little clean quick ball, we had an exceptional rush defence in our faces every phase, when a man was tackled he was invariably physically dominated so our shape was disrupted every phase. It's not that the attacking gameplan wasn't there as such, it's that we were so utterly dominated that we had zero time or space to execute it. That was why we saw so many terrible loose passes - they were playing variations of set moves but when they tried to throw the pass the man wasn't there, or was marked by a rush defender, or the man throwing the pass had been smashed backward several meters and out of the line. it was brutal.

The next World Cup is going to be a humiliating experience if we don't work out how to play this kind of team. We may find ourselves in the position of having the best team and squad we have had in the professional era playing the two teams they are worst equipped to play in the groups. We have two more games vs Ireland (I think?) and possibly none vs. SA prior to then. Wish us luck!

I think your last paragraph is right on the money. For all the progress we have made as a team (and there has been lots) we are no closer to figuring out how to counter a team who simply dominate us physically and strangle the life out of us. It’s no accident that the one regular opponent we haven’t beaten in the Toony era is Ireland, and they play in a similar style to SA. We don’t seem to have a clue how to play them (we may be in good company of course, as NZ seem to struggle against the same teams).

As you say, we have to figure out a game plan for these matches, and we have two years to do it. If we can’t, then we aren’t getting out of our group. It’s that simple. We got utterly shafted by the ludicrously early seeding (which may have been WR’s intention of course) and shafted again by the draw, but we are where we are.

Sexton may not make another RWC, but we all know Ireland have a conveyor belt from their provinces and they won’t get any worse in the next two years. There’s more of a chance we will.

The seeding was a total stitch-up.

Sexton is a generational player though. Yes, the Provinces are churning out players but I would say it is very unlikely they will have another as good as Sexton.

Our own player development pathways are starting to motor a bit now too though, I have hope we will be able to keep ticking over at least at the level we are now for the foreseeable. We also have a fairly young squad, which helps. We do have weaknesses in our development of specific positions, most notably props.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:10 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:18 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:27 am

I think it's important to understand that the reason the attacking play looked so poor was because SA made it so. We had very little clean quick ball, we had an exceptional rush defence in our faces every phase, when a man was tackled he was invariably physically dominated so our shape was disrupted every phase. It's not that the attacking gameplan wasn't there as such, it's that we were so utterly dominated that we had zero time or space to execute it. That was why we saw so many terrible loose passes - they were playing variations of set moves but when they tried to throw the pass the man wasn't there, or was marked by a rush defender, or the man throwing the pass had been smashed backward several meters and out of the line. it was brutal.

The next World Cup is going to be a humiliating experience if we don't work out how to play this kind of team. We may find ourselves in the position of having the best team and squad we have had in the professional era playing the two teams they are worst equipped to play in the groups. We have two more games vs Ireland (I think?) and possibly none vs. SA prior to then. Wish us luck!

I think your last paragraph is right on the money. For all the progress we have made as a team (and there has been lots) we are no closer to figuring out how to counter a team who simply dominate us physically and strangle the life out of us. It’s no accident that the one regular opponent we haven’t beaten in the Toony era is Ireland, and they play in a similar style to SA. We don’t seem to have a clue how to play them (we may be in good company of course, as NZ seem to struggle against the same teams).

As you say, we have to figure out a game plan for these matches, and we have two years to do it. If we can’t, then we aren’t getting out of our group. It’s that simple. We got utterly shafted by the ludicrously early seeding (which may have been WR’s intention of course) and shafted again by the draw, but we are where we are.

Sexton may not make another RWC, but we all know Ireland have a conveyor belt from their provinces and they won’t get any worse in the next two years. There’s more of a chance we will.

The seeding was a total stitch-up.

Sexton is a generational player though. Yes, the Provinces are churning out players but I would say it is very unlikely they will have another as good as Sexton.

Our own player development pathways are starting to motor a bit now too though, I have hope we will be able to keep ticking over at least at the level we are now for the foreseeable. We also have a fairly young squad, which helps. We do have weaknesses in our development of specific positions, most notably props.

I was speaking to someone involved in Super6 over the weekend and it seems everyone involved has noticed a huge increase in standard this year but also interest from around Europe in the guys playing. They are noticing lots more pathways opening up for young players to go elsewhere and develop and the pro teams here taking it a lot more seriously.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:02 am SA do the same thing to every team they play, that's why they are world champs and world number one. The most powerful team normally wins rugby games and it's only really Australia that buck this trend with any regularity. I'm not saying it's not an issue we should be desperately trying to remedy, just it's not unique to us.

Much as it hurts, we need to look at Ireland as a model of where we want to be. It seems that anyone coming into that team already knows exactly what their job is and the way they should be playing because it is fed in all the way down the system. I'm sure we must have something similar, but it obviously doesn't work as well. The main thing I noticed with Ireland on Saturday was their accuracy at breakdowns. Every time they seemed to have 2 guys waiting to hit the ruck in tandem and secure the ball immediately. There was no real room for NZ to exploit any advantage they had in power because it was blocked off before they had a chance. We need to keep being innovative and creative to compete but it sometimes feels this comes at the expense of some basics.

In saying all that there are a lot of positives as well. Our defence is brilliant and everyone is shit scared of us in attack because they have no idea what is coming. I'm convinced we are close and as usual, lets not forget where we were not that long ago.

Yep. It’s not long since we couldn’t buy a try. Now we are scoring them consistently against all opponents, including two on Sat.

It’s been said before, but it shows we have come a long way when we are frustrated we didn’t beat Australia by more and that we lost to the world champs. I think part of the problem is that we can’t help comparing ourselves to the Irish, who are significantly further down their developmental road.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:24 am

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:10 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:18 pm

I think your last paragraph is right on the money. For all the progress we have made as a team (and there has been lots) we are no closer to figuring out how to counter a team who simply dominate us physically and strangle the life out of us. It’s no accident that the one regular opponent we haven’t beaten in the Toony era is Ireland, and they play in a similar style to SA. We don’t seem to have a clue how to play them (we may be in good company of course, as NZ seem to struggle against the same teams).

As you say, we have to figure out a game plan for these matches, and we have two years to do it. If we can’t, then we aren’t getting out of our group. It’s that simple. We got utterly shafted by the ludicrously early seeding (which may have been WR’s intention of course) and shafted again by the draw, but we are where we are.

Sexton may not make another RWC, but we all know Ireland have a conveyor belt from their provinces and they won’t get any worse in the next two years. There’s more of a chance we will.

The seeding was a total stitch-up.

Sexton is a generational player though. Yes, the Provinces are churning out players but I would say it is very unlikely they will have another as good as Sexton.

Our own player development pathways are starting to motor a bit now too though, I have hope we will be able to keep ticking over at least at the level we are now for the foreseeable. We also have a fairly young squad, which helps. We do have weaknesses in our development of specific positions, most notably props.

I was speaking to someone involved in Super6 over the weekend and it seems everyone involved has noticed a huge increase in standard this year but also interest from around Europe in the guys playing. They are noticing lots more pathways opening up for young players to go elsewhere and develop and the pro teams here taking it a lot more seriously.

That's really positive. Combined with the news upthread about the new Glasgow team being primarily a vehicle for the U20s and London Scottish taking on the other franchise which potentially reopens the Anglo door and we could be on to something. I do feel the SRU deserve some credit here - they have been slow as an organisation, however the current regime do appear to have a genuine strategy in place to develop our own talent. That wasn't the case historically at all.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:57 am

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:02 am SA do the same thing to every team they play, that's why they are world champs and world number one. The most powerful team normally wins rugby games and it's only really Australia that buck this trend with any regularity. I'm not saying it's not an issue we should be desperately trying to remedy, just it's not unique to us.

Much as it hurts, we need to look at Ireland as a model of where we want to be. It seems that anyone coming into that team already knows exactly what their job is and the way they should be playing because it is fed in all the way down the system. I'm sure we must have something similar, but it obviously doesn't work as well. The main thing I noticed with Ireland on Saturday was their accuracy at breakdowns. Every time they seemed to have 2 guys waiting to hit the ruck in tandem and secure the ball immediately. There was no real room for NZ to exploit any advantage they had in power because it was blocked off before they had a chance. We need to keep being innovative and creative to compete but it sometimes feels this comes at the expense of some basics.

In saying all that there are a lot of positives as well. Our defence is brilliant and everyone is shit scared of us in attack because they have no idea what is coming. I'm convinced we are close and as usual, lets not forget where we were not that long ago.

Yep. It’s not long since we couldn’t buy a try. Now we are scoring them consistently against all opponents, including two on Sat.

It’s been said before, but it shows we have come a long way when we are frustrated we didn’t beat Australia by more and that we lost to the world champs. I think part of the problem is that we can’t help comparing ourselves to the Irish, who are significantly further down their developmental road.

I recall a conversation some years ago on the old PR forum after the SRU released that bonkers 'win the world cup' objective. Our feel at the time was that Scottish rugby had several steps to go through:

• 1. Consistently be better than Italy (i.e. not duking it out with Italy for the spoon each year)
  2. Establish ourselves as a team who can consistently win games in the 6N that are not against Italy
  3. Establish ourselves as a genuine contender for a 6N title
  4. Win a 6N title

I would say we are somewhere between 2 and 3 at this point. I have hope that this coming 6N we can genuinely call ourselves a 3 - at that point hopefully 4 is simply a matter of time and a little luck. Progress has been made, a lot of it, when you think about where we were when that Wind the WC statement was made.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:24 am

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:10 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:18 pm

I think your last paragraph is right on the money. For all the progress we have made as a team (and there has been lots) we are no closer to figuring out how to counter a team who simply dominate us physically and strangle the life out of us. It’s no accident that the one regular opponent we haven’t beaten in the Toony era is Ireland, and they play in a similar style to SA. We don’t seem to have a clue how to play them (we may be in good company of course, as NZ seem to struggle against the same teams).

As you say, we have to figure out a game plan for these matches, and we have two years to do it. If we can’t, then we aren’t getting out of our group. It’s that simple. We got utterly shafted by the ludicrously early seeding (which may have been WR’s intention of course) and shafted again by the draw, but we are where we are.

Sexton may not make another RWC, but we all know Ireland have a conveyor belt from their provinces and they won’t get any worse in the next two years. There’s more of a chance we will.

The seeding was a total stitch-up.

Sexton is a generational player though. Yes, the Provinces are churning out players but I would say it is very unlikely they will have another as good as Sexton.

Our own player development pathways are starting to motor a bit now too though, I have hope we will be able to keep ticking over at least at the level we are now for the foreseeable. We also have a fairly young squad, which helps. We do have weaknesses in our development of specific positions, most notably props.

I was speaking to someone involved in Super6 over the weekend and it seems everyone involved has noticed a huge increase in standard this year but also interest from around Europe in the guys playing. They are noticing lots more pathways opening up for young players to go elsewhere and develop and the pro teams here taking it a lot more seriously.

The SRU have done quite well to get the games televised/streamed. Combined with the better standard, it makes the competition a better shop window for players if coaches down in the Championship or wherever can check out the games easily.

Team out for Japan.
1. Bhatti
2. Turner
3. Fagerson
4. Cummings
5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie
7. Watson
8. Bayliss
9. Price
10. Russell
11. Van der Merwe
12. Johnson
13. Harris
14. Graham
15. Hogg

16. McInally
17. Schoeman
18. Sebastian
19. Skinner
20. Richardson
21. M. Fagerson
22. Horne
23. Kinghorn

Full strength team, save for a couple of positions. Taking the game seriously.

Will be interesting to see how Bayliss goes at 8, and look forward to seeing Richardson. Otherwise, I just hope Cummings, Watson and Johnson are fully fit.

Pretty underwhelming but continuing the weird selection theme. Why we're dropping good backs for Kinghorn and a 6/2 split I've no idea. The rotation of McLean and Graham has made little sense as well.

Chopping and changing with no obvious strategy.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:24 pm Team out for Japan.
1. Bhatti
2. Turner
3. Fagerson
4. Cummings
5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie
7. Watson
8. Bayliss
9. Price
10. Russell
11. Van der Merwe
12. Johnson
13. Harris
14. Graham
15. Hogg

16. McInally
17. Schoeman
18. Sebastian
19. Skinner
20. Richardson
21. M. Fagerson
22. Horne
23. Kinghorn

Looks to me that this is a dry run for a world cup group game testing the theory that Kinghorn covers all the back line. I don't like it, but it is clearly something they are looking at, probably worried over the physicality that SA and Ireland can bring up front.

Skinner a little hard done by (but I would say that as I am a fan of his), not sure why Bhatti and Schoeman are swapped over and looks like he has squeezed Fagerson on the bench because they don't think anyone else can play 8.

Back line is probably first choice, feels like they've thrown McLean to the wolves a little though.

Add Sutherland, Gray and any other tighthead other than Sebastian into the forward selection and it is as good as it is going to get for us.

So, are we all down on the team after last week? Understandable perhaps, but will we be back in our happy place if we go well v Japan?

I know Bayliss is a 6, but I’m hoping he comes out of this game as a viable option for 8, where we are weaker.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:19 pm So, are we all down on the team after last week? Understandable perhaps, but will we be back in our happy place if we go well v Japan?

I know Bayliss is a 6, but I’m hoping he comes out of this game as a viable option for 8, where we are weaker.

Depends on the performance. It's been scrappy against Australia (yes we won) and SA. Need a good performance to get the spirits back up. We're capable of a great game.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:30 pm Pretty underwhelming but continuing the weird selection theme. Why we're dropping good backs for Kinghorn and a 6/2 split I've no idea. The rotation of McLean and Graham has made little sense as well.

Chopping and changing with no obvious strategy.

I don’t know, that looks like a pretty solid team to me.

I can see the point of giving McLean a chance last week against SA but he didn’t really take it so happy for Darcy to be back. McLean will be fine but but he probably took a bit of a mental knock last week.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:28 pm Full strength team, save for a couple of positions. Taking the game seriously.

Will be interesting to see how Bayliss goes at 8, and look forward to seeing Richardson. Otherwise, I just hope Cummings, Watson and Johnson are fully fit.

Dylan is a real scrapper. It feels weird seeing him in the Scottish side but good luck to him. I hope to get to see a bit of him this weekend. You can be sure he is going to come out giving everything.

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:51 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:30 pm Pretty underwhelming but continuing the weird selection theme. Why we're dropping good backs for Kinghorn and a 6/2 split I've no idea. The rotation of McLean and Graham has made little sense as well.

Chopping and changing with no obvious strategy.

I don’t know, that looks like a pretty solid team to me.

I can see the point of giving McLean a chance last week against SA but he didn’t really take it so happy for Darcy to be back. McLean will be fine but but he probably took a bit of a mental knock last week.

Underwhelmed by the 6/2 bench. Don't really understand why we're doing that Vs Japan and not South Africa.

I like the look of Bayliss but not as an 8. The team is still very short of carriers. And with a 6/2 bench not sure where the energy of exciting backs running at tiring defences is. Unless the plan is to grind them down with what has been a pretty suspect set piece.

McLean should've started Vs Australia rather than Graham as the form guy. Then fair cop dropping Graham for a poor game Vs Aus but then to drop the young guy who probably needs his confidence boosted for a game that's a lot more winnable than SA. It's strange.

But I'm underwhelmed as I can't really see what the plan for the six nations is now? It's not running rugby. Is it try and beat England, Ireland and France in the pack and set piece? After last week's showing. Seems like we're playing to our weaknesses and other teams strengths if we try that.

Also Kinghorn just isn't a good enough 10 to be risking him in a must win at this point in time. And he's far from our best option as a back 3 reserve and he's literally never played centre. If Johnson or Harris gets injured we are in a world of trouble. Just seems a mental risk to take Vs Japan. How are two flankers going to help us when Watson and Ritchie usually play 80 minutes and Bayliss is an energy machine at Bath. Just seems another weird selection with no obvious upside.

Sards wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:28 pm

Canny believe he never said he dreamt of running out at a Soldout BT Murrayfield (TM).

The rotation/experimentation makes perfect sense to me. There was no summer tour where many of the fringe players would have been blooded so we are doing it now. We had to play two of the best 3 best teams in the world so we couldn’t put out a scratch team for any match, and Japan as we know to our chagrin are a very tough side too. Trying out Kinghorn as full back-line cover in a 6-2 split has to happen now; we can’t do it in the 6N and waiting until the summer is leaving it pretty late in the cycle.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:10 pm The rotation/experimentation makes perfect sense to me. There was no summer tour where many of the fringe players would have been blooded so we are doing it now. We had to play two of the best 3 best teams in the world so we couldn’t put out a scratch team for any match, and Japan as we know to our chagrin are a very tough side too. Trying out Kinghorn as full back-line cover in a 6-2 split has to happen now; we can’t do it in the 6N and waiting until the summer is leaving it pretty late in the cycle.

Spot on. I’m very confused by everyone being so downbeat.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:20 pm If Johnson or Harris gets injured we are in a world of trouble. Just seems a mental risk to take Vs Japan.

I like Finn at 12. Johnson to 13, Hastings to 10. No problem.

Richardson is a bit of puzzling selection unless the idea is to eventually make him a full time hooker?