The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[I like neeps]

The rotation/experimentation makes perfect sense to me. There was no summer tour where many of the fringe players would have been blooded so we are doing it now. We had to play two of the best 3 best teams in the world so we couldn’t put out a scratch team for any match, and Japan as we know to our chagrin are a very tough side too. Trying out Kinghorn as full back-line cover in a 6-2 split has to happen now; we can’t do it in the 6N and waiting until the summer is leaving it pretty late in the cycle.

Why can't we try it in the six nations? Makes more sense to have 6 forwards Vs forward dominant teams such as Ireland, England and France than it does Japan who don't play a forward dominant role.

I also don't know why we need to do it. SA and England's strength is their pack. It plays to their advantage. Is our pack our strength? Absolutely not. So it plays away from our advantages. Boring too.

[Yr Alban]

If Johnson or Harris gets injured we are in a world of trouble. Just seems a mental risk to take Vs Japan.

I like Finn at 12. Johnson to 13, Hastings to 10. No problem.

Err… that might be difficult, as Hastings isn’t in the 23…

(May be getting whooshed here)

[Slick]

If Johnson or Harris gets injured we are in a world of trouble. Just seems a mental risk to take Vs Japan.

I like Finn at 12. Johnson to 13, Hastings to 10. No problem.

Err… that might be difficult, as Hastings isn’t in the 23…

(May be getting whooshed here)

I hadn’t noticed that… I would actually have liked to see Hastings at 10 this week

[charltom]

If Johnson or Harris gets injured we are in a world of trouble. Just seems a mental risk to take Vs Japan.

I like Finn at 12. Johnson to 13, Hastings to 10. No problem.

Err… that might be difficult, as Hastings isn’t in the 23…

(May be getting whooshed here)

Well he should be. Kinghorn at 10 you say? Er...

[Yr Alban]

I’ve just finished watching the SA game (yes, I know, bit late to the party, but I was busy all weekend and work has been hectic since).

It’s a really frustrating watch, isn’t it? We were more than decent in the first half, and definitely still in contention until round about the hour mark. We lost for two reasons. Firstly, the lineout abruptly went to pieces - we blew three good attacking opportunities in rapid succession by losing our own throw. We were only 6 points behind at that stage and a score would have made a real game of it.

Secondly, we got absolutely owned at the breakdown for the last half hour. It wasn’t just the physicality of the SA players (though that contributed) - their defence was up so fast every time that our players literally couldn’t get the ball away. We kept being caught way behind the gain line, and they hit the rucks so quickly that we didn’t dare take the ball into contact because we couldn’t hold on to it. So we had the choice of getting pinged for not releasing, or throwing hopeless passes into nowhere rather than get caught in possession.

When a rush defence is up that fast, the suspicion is always that they spent most of the game offside, but that’s a different issue. We need a game plan to counteract teams who do this. We got rattled far, far too easily. A few kicks over the top of the defence might have kept them honest, but I can only recall us trying that a couple of times.

[KingBlairhorn]

The rotation/experimentation makes perfect sense to me. There was no summer tour where many of the fringe players would have been blooded so we are doing it now. We had to play two of the best 3 best teams in the world so we couldn’t put out a scratch team for any match, and Japan as we know to our chagrin are a very tough side too. Trying out Kinghorn as full back-line cover in a 6-2 split has to happen now; we can’t do it in the 6N and waiting until the summer is leaving it pretty late in the cycle.

Why can't we try it in the six nations? Makes more sense to have 6 forwards Vs forward dominant teams such as Ireland, England and France than it does Japan who don't play a forward dominant role.

I also don't know why we need to do it. SA and England's strength is their pack. It plays to their advantage. Is our pack our strength? Absolutely not. So it plays away from our advantages. Boring too.

Well if there are complaints about trying something new in a (let’s be honest) completely meaningless autumn test, there will be plenty more doing it in a 6N game. I don’t understand what you are arguing for here to be honest, that we experiment in meaningful games and not in meaningless games? Bit of a weird take to be honest.

On trying it vs Japan rather than a forward oriented team, surely if we try vs Japan and it doesn’t work then it is especially stupid to try via a forward based team like Ireland/SA. Equally, if it is immensely successful then we can try to replicate it in a tougher environment against a better team. That makes perfect sense to me too? Is your suggestion that we try it against the best team in the world at forward play and then if it doesn’t work, accept it wouldn’t work against lesser teams too?

Scotland fans really do love a whinge about nothing.

[I like neeps]

The rotation/experimentation makes perfect sense to me. There was no summer tour where many of the fringe players would have been blooded so we are doing it now. We had to play two of the best 3 best teams in the world so we couldn’t put out a scratch team for any match, and Japan as we know to our chagrin are a very tough side too. Trying out Kinghorn as full back-line cover in a 6-2 split has to happen now; we can’t do it in the 6N and waiting until the summer is leaving it pretty late in the cycle.

Why can't we try it in the six nations? Makes more sense to have 6 forwards Vs forward dominant teams such as Ireland, England and France than it does Japan who don't play a forward dominant role.

I also don't know why we need to do it. SA and England's strength is their pack. It plays to their advantage. Is our pack our strength? Absolutely not. So it plays away from our advantages. Boring too.

Well if there are complaints about trying something new in a (let’s be honest) completely meaningless autumn test, there will be plenty more doing it in a 6N game. I don’t understand what you are arguing for here to be honest, that we experiment in meaningful games and not in meaningless games? Bit of a weird take to be honest.

On trying it vs Japan rather than a forward oriented team, surely if we try vs Japan and it doesn’t work then it is especially stupid to try via a forward based team like Ireland/SA. Equally, if it is immensely successful then we can try to replicate it in a tougher environment against a better team. That makes perfect sense to me too? Is your suggestion that we try it against the best team in the world at forward play and then if it doesn’t work, accept it wouldn’t work against lesser teams too?

Scotland fans really do love a whinge about nothing.

It makes more sense to have 6 forwards on the bench Vs Ireland than it does Vs Japan is my point. But, mostly 6 forward benches for Scotland are stupid. For South Africa and England where you have world class forwards left out and your gameplan is just to beat up the other team and the introduction of world class forwards is to continue the beatdown I understand it, risky as you need to be consistently ahead for that to really work but okay. For Scotland where none of that is true, I do not understand it. Maybe the plan is to just beat up Japan but then when else will we ever replicate it? Italy? Wales if they so become bad finally. But we aren't beating up the other six nations teams. We don't need to use it Vs the tier 2s in our rwc group either as we'll beat them regardless. So maybe Townsend believes this is the best tactic to win tomorrow and it's not an experiment to be repeated. Which as logic I would be happier with. But if so I don't think Bayliss should start at 8 as he's a high energy flanker not a ball carrier. There's two carriers in that pack Turner, Zander Fagerson and Cummings if he's match fit. I notice England are playing Curry at 8, Underhill 7 and Lawes 6 but have two dominant carriers off the bench. So maybe Townsend just wants to borrow Eddie's gameplan - the most boring rugby imaginable.

If it is an experiment I don't understand what is learnt by this experiment? You don't learn if it will work against six nations side who play forward dominant rugby because you're doing it against a team that does not. I'd expect it to work quite well Vs Japan who are not doing well these days. I definitely don't expect it to work Vs Ireland you're busy playing how they want you to. And you're also an injury away from Blair Kinghorn playing a meaningful game at 10 which is a risk not really worth taking for a gameplan that doesn't play to our strengths. Ireland, England and the likes would be delighted if we tried to match them forward to forward.

Just as the selection for SA was obviously going to end up badly - Haining out of the squad absolutely no surprise he was awful, the Kebble at 3 experience has also hopefully ended as that was also sure to fail as he is not a TH - this is just weird. Sure, it's moaning about nothing. Townsend could decide to feature me heavily in his gameplan tomorrow, people moaning about that would also be moaning about nothing. It's a tactical discussion and if you can't do that on a rugby forum okay.

[Big D]

I know I have a habit of being down on certain players at times (to be fair I think most are down on Jaco VdW) but are we really sure Fagerson junior is an international 8? He has a relatively unopposed path to the jersey at national level, but how many genuinely good rather than above average games has he had for Scotland? He now has more Scottish caps than Bradbury* but I can't recall him doing anything particularly well.

There is potential that he will be behind Dempsey at Glasgow for a fair bit of the season and Scotland will be left with our two most likely 8's being stuck behind Mata and Dempsey.

Looking at the bench again, it makes less sense to me now. Skinner can cover 6 and 8 (in extreme circumstance) and Richardson covers 7. Having the 3rd back rower on the bench would make sense if it were a back row who could also cover second row. As it stands all we have done is add extra back row cover. If this is a dry run for the more physical teams I am not sure the extra back row cover makes that much of a difference.

* Not saying he deserves a call up right now.

[KingBlairhorn]

Why can't we try it in the six nations? Makes more sense to have 6 forwards Vs forward dominant teams such as Ireland, England and France than it does Japan who don't play a forward dominant role.

I also don't know why we need to do it. SA and England's strength is their pack. It plays to their advantage. Is our pack our strength? Absolutely not. So it plays away from our advantages. Boring too.

Well if there are complaints about trying something new in a (let’s be honest) completely meaningless autumn test, there will be plenty more doing it in a 6N game. I don’t understand what you are arguing for here to be honest, that we experiment in meaningful games and not in meaningless games? Bit of a weird take to be honest.

On trying it vs Japan rather than a forward oriented team, surely if we try vs Japan and it doesn’t work then it is especially stupid to try via a forward based team like Ireland/SA. Equally, if it is immensely successful then we can try to replicate it in a tougher environment against a better team. That makes perfect sense to me too? Is your suggestion that we try it against the best team in the world at forward play and then if it doesn’t work, accept it wouldn’t work against lesser teams too?

Scotland fans really do love a whinge about nothing.

It makes more sense to have 6 forwards on the bench Vs Ireland than it does Vs Japan is my point. But, mostly 6 forward benches for Scotland are stupid. For South Africa and England where you have world class forwards left out and your gameplan is just to beat up the other team and the introduction of world class forwards is to continue the beatdown I understand it, risky as you need to be consistently ahead for that to really work but okay. For Scotland where none of that is true, I do not understand it. Maybe the plan is to just beat up Japan but then when else will we ever replicate it? Italy? Wales if they so become bad finally. But we aren't beating up the other six nations teams. We don't need to use it Vs the tier 2s in our rwc group either as we'll beat them regardless. So maybe Townsend believes this is the best tactic to win tomorrow and it's not an experiment to be repeated. Which as logic I would be happier with. But if so I don't think Bayliss should start at 8 as he's a high energy flanker not a ball carrier. There's two carriers in that pack Turner, Zander Fagerson and Cummings if he's match fit. I notice England are playing Curry at 8, Underhill 7 and Lawes 6 but have two dominant carriers off the bench. So maybe Townsend just wants to borrow Eddie's gameplan - the most boring rugby imaginable.

If it is an experiment I don't understand what is learnt by this experiment? You don't learn if it will work against six nations side who play forward dominant rugby because you're doing it against a team that does not. I'd expect it to work quite well Vs Japan who are not doing well these days. I definitely don't expect it to work Vs Ireland you're busy playing how they want you to. And you're also an injury away from Blair Kinghorn playing a meaningful game at 10 which is a risk not really worth taking for a gameplan that doesn't play to our strengths. Ireland, England and the likes would be delighted if we tried to match them forward to forward.

Just as the selection for SA was obviously going to end up badly - Haining out of the squad absolutely no surprise he was awful, the Kebble at 3 experience has also hopefully ended as that was also sure to fail as he is not a TH - this is just weird. Sure, it's moaning about nothing. Townsend could decide to feature me heavily in his gameplan tomorrow, people moaning about that would also be moaning about nothing. It's a tactical discussion and if you can't do that on a rugby forum okay.

It makes more sense to have 6 forwards on the bench Vs Ireland than it does Vs Japan is my point.
And my point is that you don't want to do it against Ireland/SA as a first try, you want to do it against a weaker team. If it doesn't work against Japan then we certainly don't try to do it against a more dominant team. We to Ireland/SA are Japan to us when it comes to forward domination. We all keep saying that Toonie needs to find a way to compete with these teams, if he is never allowed to experiment when is he going to find that gameplan?

But, mostly 6 forward benches for Scotland are stupid. For South Africa and England where you have world class forwards left out and your gameplan is just to beat up the other team and the introduction of world class forwards is to continue the beatdown I understand it, risky as you need to be consistently ahead for that to really work but okay. For Scotland where none of that is true, I do not understand it.
You are assuming the point of the 6-2 is to go big and pummel Japan. My read is it is to go high intensity and to try to keep the tempo at an unmanageable level for the Japanese forwards, but doing it with not small players. Having an extra forward on the bench allows an extra player to expend all his energy in the first 50/60 minutes. We all agree that a new gameplan is needed. Perhaps we are seeing something here.

Just as the selection for SA was obviously going to end up badly - Haining out of the squad absolutely no surprise he was awful, the Kebble at 3 experience has also hopefully ended as that was also sure to fail as he is not a TH - this is just weird.
Haining was a weird pick I agree. Kebble is one game into switching to tighthead because we are seriously scraping the barrel right now but have a glut of looseheads. He might just be a stopgap, but he is one we desperately need. If Zander goes down we are left with a 37 year old Nel, Berghan, McCallum, Sebastian. Not good. Having a prop who can cover both sides is also immensely useful for a WC squad where places are at a premium.

Sure, it's moaning about nothing. Townsend could decide to feature me heavily in his gameplan tomorrow, people moaning about that would also be moaning about nothing. It's a tactical discussion and if you can't do that on a rugby forum okay.
fair enough, point taken.

[C T]

I know I have a habit of being down on certain players at times (to be fair I think most are down on Jaco VdW) but are we really sure Fagerson junior is an international 8? He has a relatively unopposed path to the jersey at national level, but how many genuinely good rather than above average games has he had for Scotland? He now has more Scottish caps than Bradbury* but I can't recall him doing anything particularly well.

There is potential that he will be behind Dempsey at Glasgow for a fair bit of the season and Scotland will be left with our two most likely 8's being stuck behind Mata and Dempsey.

Looking at the bench again, it makes less sense to me now. Skinner can cover 6 and 8 (in extreme circumstance) and Richardson covers 7. Having the 3rd back rower on the bench would make sense if it were a back row who could also cover second row. As it stands all we have done is add extra back row cover. If this is a dry run for the more physical teams I am not sure the extra back row cover makes that much of a difference.

No, is probably the honest answer. He is still young at 23 though. Well, that's young in my mind. I know Ireland seem to manage to produce these 18 year old's with muscles the size of basketballs, a full grown beard and 6 kids.

I'm a bit worried that Bradbury might be getting better by being absent. Does feels like we've got two at least decent prospects, would be nice if they were competing against each other.

I'd still go Fagerson at the moment. Who else? Bradbury only seems to have started performing when he was hurt about being left out. Bring Wilson back in?

[Big D]

I know I have a habit of being down on certain players at times (to be fair I think most are down on Jaco VdW) but are we really sure Fagerson junior is an international 8? He has a relatively unopposed path to the jersey at national level, but how many genuinely good rather than above average games has he had for Scotland? He now has more Scottish caps than Bradbury* but I can't recall him doing anything particularly well.

There is potential that he will be behind Dempsey at Glasgow for a fair bit of the season and Scotland will be left with our two most likely 8's being stuck behind Mata and Dempsey.

Looking at the bench again, it makes less sense to me now. Skinner can cover 6 and 8 (in extreme circumstance) and Richardson covers 7. Having the 3rd back rower on the bench would make sense if it were a back row who could also cover second row. As it stands all we have done is add extra back row cover. If this is a dry run for the more physical teams I am not sure the extra back row cover makes that much of a difference.

No, is probably the honest answer. He is still young at 23 though. Well, that's young in my mind. I know Ireland seem to manage to produce these 18 year old's with muscles the size of basketballs, a full grown beard and 6 kids.

I'm a bit worried that Bradbury might be getting better by being absent. Does feels like we've got two at least decent prospects, would be nice if they were competing against each other.

I'd still go Fagerson at the moment. Who else? Bradbury only seems to have started performing when he was hurt about being left out. Bring Wilson back in?

I don't think we can pick Bradbury and the moment as he needs to show form for Edinburgh first. It is just he is the likely realistic alternative currently playing in Scotland if he starts to produce for Edinburgh.

The frustrating thing about Bradbury is he has shown brief glimpses at number 8 for the national side. The away game v England sticks out, not for him running one in from 40, but there were two key number 8 pick ups in our own 22 where he made good hard yards and did other bits of hard carrying. Something I don't think we have really seen from Fagerson IMO.

Sadly I am not sure either are the long term answer but at 26 and 23 they will be around for a while yet and have plenty opportunity to develop.

[Biffer]

Sadly I am not sure either are the long term answer but at 26 and 23 they will be around for a while yet and have plenty opportunity to develop.

Yeah, I don't need them to be world beaters, I'll be very happy if they have a couple of really strong years each. If those years coincide with a RWC, great. If they knock people on thi9er ass for eighteen months and that's two Six Nations, great.

[I like neeps]

It makes more sense to have 6 forwards on the bench Vs Ireland than it does Vs Japan is my point.
And my point is that you don't want to do it against Ireland/SA as a first try, you want to do it against a weaker team. If it doesn't work against Japan then we certainly don't try to do it against a more dominant team. We to Ireland/SA are Japan to us when it comes to forward domination. We all keep saying that Toonie needs to find a way to compete with these teams, if he is never allowed to experiment when is he going to find that gameplan?

But, mostly 6 forward benches for Scotland are stupid. For South Africa and England where you have world class forwards left out and your gameplan is just to beat up the other team and the introduction of world class forwards is to continue the beatdown I understand it, risky as you need to be consistently ahead for that to really work but okay. For Scotland where none of that is true, I do not understand it.
You are assuming the point of the 6-2 is to go big and pummel Japan. My read is it is to go high intensity and to try to keep the tempo at an unmanageable level for the Japanese forwards, but doing it with not small players. Having an extra forward on the bench allows an extra player to expend all his energy in the first 50/60 minutes. We all agree that a new gameplan is needed. Perhaps we are seeing something here.

Just as the selection for SA was obviously going to end up badly - Haining out of the squad absolutely no surprise he was awful, the Kebble at 3 experience has also hopefully ended as that was also sure to fail as he is not a TH - this is just weird.
Haining was a weird pick I agree. Kebble is one game into switching to tighthead because we are seriously scraping the barrel right now but have a glut of looseheads. He might just be a stopgap, but he is one we desperately need. If Zander goes down we are left with a 37 year old Nel, Berghan, McCallum, Sebastian. Not good. Having a prop who can cover both sides is also immensely useful for a WC squad where places are at a premium.

Sure, it's moaning about nothing. Townsend could decide to feature me heavily in his gameplan tomorrow, people moaning about that would also be moaning about nothing. It's a tactical discussion and if you can't do that on a rugby forum okay.
fair enough, point taken.

This is where I disagree. If you want to do it Vs SA/Ireland/England do it against SA/Ireland/England not Japan. I appreciate if it doesn't work and we lose tomorrow we obviously won't be trying it again. However, as you say pick a forward pack to play at an intensity the Japanese cannot handle. SA/Ireland will run through us all the same. It's not a proactive gameplan Vs SA/Ireland and the big boys as it is vs Japan. The Ireland's England's etc want us to try and arm wrestle them as their gameplan is being really good at arm wrestles. So I appreciate as a reaction our forwards will be knackered let's have an extra sub so we can hold on longer. But I don't appreciate the "well it worked Vs Japan we've found our plan B".

I also appreciate the back row will run them off the park. It's what England are doing at the minute just try and suffocate the opposition and win by penalties then the carriers can come on against tired players. It makes for an appalling spectacle for one. But relying on penalties needs a reliable set piece and reliable goal kicker. Neither of which we have! Our set piece specifically line-out is probably our weakest spot, our ball carriers then next and then maybe Finn's goalkicking next (doesn't do it for Racing). The gameplan design is just playing to our flaws. And not Japan's but playing to the strength of the other six nations teams and SA in our world cup group. It's just stupid in my opinion, I could be wrong.

The world cup will see expanded squads so it's less needed. And relying on Kebble is far worse than relying on the players you've mentioned as they actually play the position. I'd rather have D'Arcy Rae at TH for the six nations than Kebble if Zander is unavailable.

[Slick]

Ryan Wilson? He’s not the long term answer obvs, but he’s playing well.

I agree re Fagerson, well done for doing what he’s doing but he is not an international 8

[S/Lt_Phillips]

Heading for Murrayfield for the first time since lockdown started. Vaccination passport all ready to go.

Looking forward to this, will be a very different challenge to SA - I expect it'll be Scotland looking to slow it down this week and the props might actually enjoy the game rather than just dreading the next scrum

I wonder if Hogg will score today & break the record? Hopefully also see wee Darcy having a run or two.

[Yr Alban]

Heading for Murrayfield for the first time since lockdown started. Vaccination passport all ready to go.

Looking forward to this, will be a very different challenge to SA - I expect it'll be Scotland looking to slow it down this week and the props might actually enjoy the game rather than just dreading the next scrum

I wonder if Hogg will score today & break the record? Hopefully also see wee Darcy having a run or two.

Hoping for a couple from Hogg. Now he’s scoring again, I want him to get to at least 30 Test tries. The fact that our record number is so low is kind of embarrassing. FFS, even Keith Earls got 34

[I like neeps]

Does anyone know the bidding behind Amazon prime? I know we're always on the same time as Italy which tells a story. But Ireland are on C4? So it's not CVC selling all the Six Nations rights. Can't we leave Amazon for prime time BBC slots?

1pm kickoffs. Awful!

[Big D]

Commentators fawning over Japan. That was 20 phases of fuck all. Aimless.

[Big D]

Duhan must me so hard to stop in that situation. So explosive.

Good call by Hogg to go the corner.

[Big D]

Discipline is rotten.

[I like neeps]

4 penalties in a few minutes all avoidable all lazy.

[Big D]

Another penalty.

[Big D]

This isn't good or clever rugby.

[I like neeps]

This isn't good or clever rugby.

At least the bench offers lots of options for changing it up!

[I like neeps]

Great moment for Hogg and that's outstanding! That's what he does.

[Big D]

First time we string any rugby together we score a nice try.

Congrats to Hoggy.

[Big D]

Japan keep the ball well which is nice but they don't really do a lot with it.

[I like neeps]

Japan keep the ball well which is nice but they don't really do a lot with it.

They play a lot like Scotland used to try it's about getting wide early and if you can't doesn't go anywhere.

Russell just isn't having a good Autumn series at all. He's miles off the pace.

[Big D]

Bhatti scrummaging well. Constantly getting the secondary nudge on.

[Big D]

That's a cracking finish.

Decent pass by Finn off his left too.

Japan midfield defence left clueless.

[Big D]

Mixed bag of a half. When we get in their 22 we look like scoring.

Defending well but all Japan's points came from our own stupid mistakes and discipline.

Japan are there for a horsing in the second half.

[Torquemada 1420]

Flake chip kicks away when down a man

[Big D]

That should be a penalty try.

[Big D]

We are letting a poor team back into this.

[Torquemada 1420]

Flake gets lucky: looked out in touch.

[Yr Alban]

Flake gets lucky: looked out in touch.

Get the feck out of our thread, Torq. Nobody is interested in your shite.

Ref is really frustrating in this game. Everything is a penalty to Japan.

[Torquemada 1420]

Flake gets lucky: looked out in touch.

Get the feck out of our thread, Torq. Nobody is interested in your shite.

Ref is really frustrating in this game. Everything is a penalty to Japan.

Not your thread f**kwit. It's a public discussion board.

Maybe if Sco stopped committing dim infringements, eh?

[Yr Alban]

We wanted a ‘complete’ performance, but this has been the opposite. We’ve scored four tries but rarely looked remotely convincing. All of our players look out of sorts. On the back of last week, it’s hugely disappointing.

[Big D]

We wanted a ‘complete’ performance, but this has been the opposite. We’ve scored four tries but rarely looked remotely convincing. All of our players look out of sorts. On the back of last week, it’s hugely disappointing.

Been the same all NI's really.

[Yr Alban]

Flake gets lucky: looked out in touch.

Get the feck out of our thread, Torq. Nobody is interested in your shite.

Ref is really frustrating in this game. Everything is a penalty to Japan.

Not your thread f**kwit. It's a public discussion board.

Maybe if Sco stopped committing dim infringements, eh?

This is the National thread, you wanker. Go and whine on some other thread. Or better still, crawl back under your rock.