NPR

Ireland put 60 on these guys. As a reminder.

Needless to say, but so flat it is prime opportunity to lose this.

If Japan win this - and they easily could - it’ll be deserved. We have spent 90% of the game being abject.

Yr Alban wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:30 pm
This is the National thread, you wanker. Go and whine on some other thread. Or better still, crawl back under your rock.

Oh. I see. You want to be able to cry at the frustratingly bad performance by Sco on your own? Tough. Start your own private forum.

Yr Alban wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:39 pm If Japan win this - and they easily could - it’ll be deserved. We have spent 90% of the game being abject.

They've been crap too. Pretty much every point they've scored has come from brain dead penalties.

Their best play was that 50/22.

A win is a win. 3/4 you can't complain. Don't think we played well but we've played well and lost enough I'll move on.

Well we won 3 and lost 1 over the NI's.

We'd have taken that at the start but the performances have been very flat. Probably best summed up by Chris Harris getting MOTM v a team we should have gubbed.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:41 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:30 pm
This is the National thread, you wanker. Go and whine on some other thread. Or better still, crawl back under your rock.

Oh. I see. You want to be able to cry at the frustratingly bad performance by Sco on your own? Tough. Start your own private forum.

National fora have been free from trolls like you since forever. FUCK. OFF.

I like neeps wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:34 pm Ireland put 60 on these guys. As a reminder.

That's as much a reflection of how well Ire are playing though. In mitigation for Sco, Jap must be one of the worst sides to play because you want to play a style that suits Japan.

I like neeps wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:34 pm Ireland put 60 on these guys. As a reminder.

Quite!
Scotland very poor in the second half. Most phases they put together was 7 when fast phases is usually a strength.!!
WTF was Russell doing arguing with Hogg ab out the kick to goal at the end?

SaintK wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:48 pm

I like neeps wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:34 pm Ireland put 60 on these guys. As a reminder.

Quite!
Scotland very poor in the second half. Most phases they put together was 7 when fast phases is usually a strength.!!
WTF was Russell doing arguing with Hogg ab out the kick to goal at the end?

Think over which was best way to run down the clock. If the kick was wider I'd maybe have agreed with him but it was a gimme.

Big D wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:42 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:39 pm If Japan win this - and they easily could - it’ll be deserved. We have spent 90% of the game being abject.

They've been crap too. Pretty much every point they've scored has come from brain dead penalties.

Their best play was that 50/22.

They really weren’t brilliant, but we seemed to have no answer to their willingness to run the ball from anywhere. We didn’t force a single turnover all match. Our tries were well executed, but that’s it. At every other point we were second best, and that just isn’t good enough against a team Ireland just dismantled.

We were a red card v Wales from the 6N title, and now suddenly we look like Scotland from 10 years ago. Players like Watson, who we normally depend on, did nothing today (I really don’t think he is fit for Test rugby). If we don’t improve rapidly, we’ll be scrapping with Italy for the wooden spoon again.

Big D wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:51 pm

SaintK wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:48 pm

I like neeps wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:34 pm Ireland put 60 on these guys. As a reminder.

Quite!
Scotland very poor in the second half. Most phases they put together was 7 when fast phases is usually a strength.!!
WTF was Russell doing arguing with Hogg ab out the kick to goal at the end?

Think over which was best way to run down the clock. If the kick was wider I'd maybe have agreed with him but it was a gimme.

Absolutely the right call. Japan had their tails up and were less than a score down. Taking the kick put us two scores clear and denied Japan the time to get them. Not the bravest decision against Japan, but unquestionably the correct one.

I was screaming at Hogg for kicking the ball out at the end - because the TV clock was out of sync!

That was pish.

Finn was poor all through the AIs to be honest, showing why he’s not being picked for Racing. He needs to believe less in his own hype and play smart rugby more often.

The style of that ref has obviously didn’t work for us, but how many times have we seen that and not been able to deal with it. If the ref has a particular way of interpreting an aspect of the game, accept that’s how it is and deal with it, don’t just keep making the same braindead decisions all game. Japan we’re toothless in attack, rarely looked like scoring, but we gave them chance after chance to have possession and work penalties. So frustrating that we never seem to be able to learn that lesson.

Yr Alban wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:53 pm

Big D wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:42 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:39 pm If Japan win this - and they easily could - it’ll be deserved. We have spent 90% of the game being abject.

They've been crap too. Pretty much every point they've scored has come from brain dead penalties.

Their best play was that 50/22.

They really weren’t brilliant, but we seemed to have no answer to their willingness to run the ball from anywhere. We didn’t force a single turnover all match. Our tries were well executed, but that’s it. At every other point we were second best, and that just isn’t good enough against a team Ireland just dismantled.

We were a red card v Wales from the 6N title, and now suddenly we look like Scotland from 10 years ago. Players like Watson, who we normally depend on, did nothing today (I really don’t think he is fit for Test rugby). If we don’t improve rapidly, we’ll be scrapping with Italy for the wooden spoon again.

A good performance Vs Wales. We were absolutely sh*te before Fagerson got sent off. We should've been 20 points up even before that point. It's revisionism to suggest that's why we lost.

We were a good lineout away Vs Ireland too. A problem that still hasn't been fixed especially with Turner playing. We really need to stop calling him up until he can throw at a high standard.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:41 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:30 pm
This is the National thread, you wanker. Go and whine on some other thread. Or better still, crawl back under your rock.

Oh. I see. You want to be able to cry at the frustratingly bad performance by Sco on your own? Tough. Start your own private forum.

He's 100% correct and you have been around these places long enough to know it. There are match threads for you to voice your opinion. You bring nothing of interest to a national forum and you should just keep away if all you are intent on doing is taking the piss.

Perhaps Blair was the mastermind behind the game planning.

Big D wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:59 pm Perhaps Blair was the mastermind behind the game planning.

How well does he speak on Amazon Prime coverage btw. I think this is just Scotland - we're ill disciplined, inaccurate, sloppy quite often but when it clicks can beat England and France.

KingBlairhorn wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:57 pm That was pish.

Finn was poor all through the AIs to be honest, showing why he’s not being picked for Racing. He needs to believe less in his own hype and play smart rugby more often.

The style of that ref has obviously didn’t work for us, but how many times have we seen that and not been able to deal with it. If the ref has a particular way of interpreting an aspect of the game, accept that’s how it is and deal with it, don’t just keep making the same braindead decisions all game. Japan we’re toothless in attack, rarely looked like scoring, but we gave them chance after chance to have possession and work penalties. So frustrating that we never seem to be able to learn that lesson.

Much as I don’t want to agree with Torq, he has been poor. For the last year or two he has looked a lot more pragmatic, but he was way too loose today and kept taking wrong options. If Hastings continues his form with Gloucester, Finn might find himself benched for the 6N.

Today really showed we can’t play a ref at all. Today’s ref seemed keen to give everything to Japan, but that was at least partly because we got on the wrong side of him and couldn’t adapt, so we kept losing penalty after penalty. Having said that, there were two decisions that really stuck in my craw. One was the penalty for a squint throw (it was, slightly, but when did you last see a penalty given for that?) The other was when we munched the Japan scrum completely and the ref simply ordered a reset. If that had been the other way round, it would have been a penalty to Japan, no question.

I like neeps wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:58 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:53 pm

Big D wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:42 pm

They've been crap too. Pretty much every point they've scored has come from brain dead penalties.

Their best play was that 50/22.

They really weren’t brilliant, but we seemed to have no answer to their willingness to run the ball from anywhere. We didn’t force a single turnover all match. Our tries were well executed, but that’s it. At every other point we were second best, and that just isn’t good enough against a team Ireland just dismantled.

We were a red card v Wales from the 6N title, and now suddenly we look like Scotland from 10 years ago. Players like Watson, who we normally depend on, did nothing today (I really don’t think he is fit for Test rugby). If we don’t improve rapidly, we’ll be scrapping with Italy for the wooden spoon again.

A good performance Vs Wales. We were absolutely sh*te before Fagerson got sent off. We should've been 20 points up even before that point. It's revisionism to suggest that's why we lost.

We were a good lineout away Vs Ireland too. A problem that still hasn't been fixed especially with Turner playing. We really need to stop calling him up until he can throw at a high standard.

I know that game wasn’t a good performance. I know we should have been out of sight. And I know you can’t assume all the other results would have gone the same way. But it haunts me that if we had won by a point v Wales rather than lost by a point, after playing 14 v 15 for much of it, we’d be champions right now. We were that close.

England being everything we weren't last week so far.

Starting to leak penalties now, which is what SA live off.

Yr Alban wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:10 pm

I like neeps wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:58 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:53 pm

They really weren’t brilliant, but we seemed to have no answer to their willingness to run the ball from anywhere. We didn’t force a single turnover all match. Our tries were well executed, but that’s it. At every other point we were second best, and that just isn’t good enough against a team Ireland just dismantled.

We were a red card v Wales from the 6N title, and now suddenly we look like Scotland from 10 years ago. Players like Watson, who we normally depend on, did nothing today (I really don’t think he is fit for Test rugby). If we don’t improve rapidly, we’ll be scrapping with Italy for the wooden spoon again.

A good performance Vs Wales. We were absolutely sh*te before Fagerson got sent off. We should've been 20 points up even before that point. It's revisionism to suggest that's why we lost.

We were a good lineout away Vs Ireland too. A problem that still hasn't been fixed especially with Turner playing. We really need to stop calling him up until he can throw at a high standard.

I know that game wasn’t a good performance. I know we should have been out of sight. And I know you can’t assume all the other results would have gone the same way. But it haunts me that if we had won by a point v Wales rather than lost by a point, after playing 14 v 15 for much of it, we’d be champions right now. We were that close.

Agree, the performance Vs Wales haunts me, especially that Gary Graham performance. A good performance Vs Wales or Ireland and we'd have won. The reality is neither were good performances. How much we lost by isn't important.

But both games were lost due to a number of factors - poor line out and poor discipline. Neither have changed. We absolutely leak penalties even when under little pressure. Townsend clearly is not hot enough on either so this will continue for the foreseeable.

I like neeps wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:47 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:10 pm

I like neeps wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:58 pm

A good performance Vs Wales. We were absolutely sh*te before Fagerson got sent off. We should've been 20 points up even before that point. It's revisionism to suggest that's why we lost.

We were a good lineout away Vs Ireland too. A problem that still hasn't been fixed especially with Turner playing. We really need to stop calling him up until he can throw at a high standard.

I know that game wasn’t a good performance. I know we should have been out of sight. And I know you can’t assume all the other results would have gone the same way. But it haunts me that if we had won by a point v Wales rather than lost by a point, after playing 14 v 15 for much of it, we’d be champions right now. We were that close.

Agree, the performance Vs Wales haunts me, especially that Gary Graham performance. A good performance Vs Wales or Ireland and we'd have won. The reality is neither were good performances. How much we lost by isn't important.

But both games were lost due to a number of factors - poor line out and poor discipline. Neither have changed. We absolutely leak penalties even when under little pressure. Townsend clearly is not hot enough on either so this will continue for the foreseeable.

We certainly do right now - but a year or so ago we had got the count right down - I recall games in low single figures. We have lost the head since.

Our lineout and our discipline have certainly been our weakness since the last 6N, which is why it’s really quite concerning that neither appears to be improving. Given that these are aspects of the game that are overwhelmingly down to what we do, rather than the opposition, and so they are very much within our power to fix.

Now that we’ve all had our customary whinge, the positives. 3 wins from 4 tests including Australia who were ranked 3 and Japan who turned us over last time we played. A bunch of new caps blooded to add that extra little depth. We played poorly and still won 3, if we can sort the obvious errors in our game we will go up another level; given we are mid-cycle that’s not the worst place to be.

I think everyone imagines progress as a single straight line in an upward trajectory, but progress will always be more variable than that. It’s hard, but we always have to remind ourselves where we were just a few years ago.

KingBlairhorn wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:52 pm It’s hard, but we always have to remind ourselves where we were just a few years ago.

I mostly agree with what you say but we need to stop talking about "where we were a few years ago". We've been winning over 50% of our games since Cotter started in 2014 and that includes a wooden spoon and 0 6N wins in 2015. And we currently have generational talents in some positions.

2015 world cup we were a last min penalty away from a world cup semi final that wouldn't have been undeserved. Since then bar one season we've been a 2 or 3 win team in the 6N and regularly beaten Australia and been competitive with the very best in the world.

The aberration was the last world cup where the players looked ill prepared for the conditions and teams we were playing.

Many of the key players in this group have been around since the 2015 World cup, our two best players (when at their best) are half way through what is probably their last world cup cycle.

From a personnel point of view we need more depth at tighthead and we could use a big ball carrying 8, Bayliss looks decent at this level but he's another flanker really.

From a technical point of view there wasn't much we could do about the scrums last week, England got mullered there in that second half today too but we should be able to put out a reliable lineout and get more accuracy at the breakdown, stop giving away hunners of penalties every game.

Alternative way to read your post: we were shite until cotter took over 7 years ago and as recently as 6 years ago we lost every 6N game. That seems like rapid progress to me.

Well, it was a nice day out but most of the rugby was excruciating.

Good points - I thought Bayliss did really well. Is he the answer? Probably not but it was a very good performance.

Given we pretty much defended for the first 20 minutes I kept my eye on Harris. Fuck me he is immense in that defensive role, really outstanding.

Finn is annoying me again. He has been poor and just seems off the pace, not seeing things as clearly as he does when on form. I said midweek I’d like to have seen Hastings start at 10 and I wish it had happened. His decision making was poor and he seemed to be just firing out flat passes expecting something to happen with no thought. Really pissed of with Finn arguing with Hogg over the kick, he had no right.

But anyway, 3 out of 4 is great. My annoyance is that is the 6N we were much better at keeping the penalty count down, fewer stupid decisions and our accuracy was brilliant. All those points have been bad the last 4 weeks.

Still, we are never particularly good in the AI’s and looking forward to the 6N

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:23 pm From a personnel point of view we need more depth at tighthead and we could use a big ball carrying 8, Bayliss looks decent at this level but he's another flanker really.

From a technical point of view there wasn't much we could do about the scrums last week, England got mullered there in that second half today too but we should be able to put out a reliable lineout and get more accuracy at the breakdown, stop giving away hunners of penalties every game.

I was going to say similar. I kind of bit my lip this week when a lot of the chat was about how outmuscled our forwards have been and that we can’t compete against the power teams. I think if you look over the last 2 or 3 years we haven’t really taken a backwards step against anyone and our forward and power game have improved massively.

England did well to win today but their pack in the 2nd half got absolutely beasted, far more than we did last week. SA are immense at that and Ireland are just so clinical we struggle but we are up with the best of the rest.

But yeah, shame about our WC pool!

One thing we haven’t noted is that the refs were all Southern Hemisphere based for our games (I think). The game is definitely played and reffed differently in the SH particularly around the breakdown where they are much more about letting the game flow whereas in the north we are much more about ensuring a fair contest. Neither is right or wrong (but fucks sake WR, you can’t have the laws interpreted differently around the world, sort it out yeh?), and our boys need to learn to play the ref as above, but at least in the 6N we will have a better understanding of what the refs are looking for. Or at least I hope so, clutching at straws?

KingBlairhorn wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:03 pm One thing we haven’t noted is that the refs were all Southern Hemisphere based for our games (I think). The game is definitely played and reffed differently in the SH particularly around the breakdown where they are much more about letting the game flow whereas in the north we are much more about ensuring a fair contest. Neither is right or wrong (but fucks sake WR, you can’t have the laws interpreted differently around the world, sort it out yeh?), and our boys need to learn to play the ref as above, but at least in the 6N we will have a better understanding of what the refs are looking for. Or at least I hope so, clutching at straws?

Romain Poite was the referee Vs Australia. They were very unhappy with him. You are right though. The NH SH variance in high shots and rucks is crazy.

KingBlairhorn wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:23 pm Alternative way to read your post: we were shite until cotter took over 7 years ago and as recently as 6 years ago we lost every 6N game. That seems like rapid progress to me.

We can't just continue comparing this group of players from 7+ years ago, even the two that played in that team are different players now. This is a team with 7 Lions and 5 of those are starting test Lions. This is as good a bunch of players as we might have for a long time.

All I am saying is this lot of players are of a high enough quality we can both be happy with the wins but be critical of their performances by comparing them against what they have shown they are capable of.

I also think I’ll forgive myself for getting a bit misty eyed about Hoggy tonight after his try scoring record.

I don’t think you can overestimate the impact he has had on Scottish rugby over the last decade. He’s meant that we can have conversations with any rugby supporters around the globe about world class players, his captaincy has brought an enormous amount of pride to us all and the way he plays has admiration from every corner of the rugby world (high balls apart…)

He is certainly a generational talent for us and we might not realise how much of an impact he has had until he’s gone.

Slick wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:30 pm I also think I’ll forgive myself for getting a bit misty eyed about Hoggy tonight after his try scoring record.

I don’t think you can overestimate the impact he has had on Scottish rugby over the last decade. He’s meant that we can have conversations with any rugby supporters around the globe about world class players, his captaincy has brought an enormous amount of pride to us all and the way he plays has admiration from every corner of the rugby world (high balls apart…)

He is certainly a generational talent for us and we might not realise how much of an impact he has had until he’s gone.

He certainly has. One day he'll reflect on a pretty good career. Was glad to see him win big club competitions too.

When he and Finn call time I think they'll leave pretty big holes (Finn less so). Both are 29, so have time but this is likely the last world cup cycle with them as key factors.

Mike Adamson not making many friends in Aus tonight. The Welsh scored a try from an interception where Tompkins stuck out one hand and failed to catch the ball. Adams allowed the play to continue as the ball went backwards. He was right, but 99/100 that is given as a knock-on and a yellow card. Obviously Aus had a player red carded too, as is tradition for any team playing Wales. Wales are having the jammiest year of rugby that has ever been!

KingBlairhorn wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:57 pm Mike Adamson not making many friends in Aus tonight. The Welsh scored a try from an interception where Tompkins stuck out one hand and failed to catch the ball. Adams allowed the play to continue as the ball went backwards. He was right, but 99/100 that is given as a knock-on and a yellow card. Obviously Aus had a player red carded too, as is tradition for any team playing Wales. Wales are having the jammiest year of rugby that has ever been!

Both calls were right too but pretty ballsy all the same. To be honest it makes sense to let that go and check the video.

KingBlairhorn wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:57 pm Mike Adamson not making many friends in Aus tonight. The Welsh scored a try from an interception where Tompkins stuck out one hand and failed to catch the ball. Adams allowed the play to continue as the ball went backwards. He was right, but 99/100 that is given as a knock-on and a yellow card. Obviously Aus had a player red carded too, as is tradition for any team playing Wales. Wales are having the jammiest year of rugby that has ever been!

Well no, 99/100 times it's a knock on - he knocked it backwards.

I know people can be a bit salty about this but if it goes backwards it's fine

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:36 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:57 pm Mike Adamson not making many friends in Aus tonight. The Welsh scored a try from an interception where Tompkins stuck out one hand and failed to catch the ball. Adams allowed the play to continue as the ball went backwards. He was right, but 99/100 that is given as a knock-on and a yellow card. Obviously Aus had a player red carded too, as is tradition for any team playing Wales. Wales are having the jammiest year of rugby that has ever been!

Well no, 99/100 times it's a knock on - he knocked it backwards.

I know people can be a bit salty about this but if it goes backwards it's fine

No, I absolute agree and it was definitely the right call, but how often do refs blow immediately when the ball hits the deck regardless of the direction the ball travels. The point is that refs very very rarely look at the direction the ball travels in those calls, they just give a knock-on and a yellow immediately.

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:36 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:57 pm Mike Adamson not making many friends in Aus tonight. The Welsh scored a try from an interception where Tompkins stuck out one hand and failed to catch the ball. Adams allowed the play to continue as the ball went backwards. He was right, but 99/100 that is given as a knock-on and a yellow card. Obviously Aus had a player red carded too, as is tradition for any team playing Wales. Wales are having the jammiest year of rugby that has ever been!

Well no, 99/100 times it's a knock on - he knocked it backwards.

I know people can be a bit salty about this but if it goes backwards it's fine

It does. But the vast majority of referees blow for a knock-on for any handling error, no matter which way the ball went. It’s a long-term annoyance of mine.

Edit: I didn’t see the Wales game, but this sounds very reminiscent of Maitland’s YC from two RWCs ago. Surely, if you go for an interception and don’t catch the ball, it doesn’t matter whether the ball went forward or not?