NPR

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:35 am**

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:45 am
MungoMan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:18 am
petej wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:59 am
Batteries do work and scale but really for short term storage (24hr) and grid balancing.

Using excess renewable energy to generate hydrogen or synthetic fuels and then store for longer term energy storage. UK doesn't have big enough mountains for gravity based storage options unlike Switzerland.

As for gas storage it was deemed to be not worth investing in by the markets and government.
Effective pumped hydro storage (PHS) doesn't rely on Swiss-sized mountains. If it did there would be no existing PHS is Australia and none planned. Yet it certainly does exist here and more is planned (and not merely pipe-dream stuff, e.g. Snowy 2.0 is under construction).

OTOH, the UK is constrained by its land area cf. its population, altho' suitable sites may nevertheless exist.
Scotland has plenty of capacity for more hydro schemes as mentioned above however the cost of exporting electricity via the National Grid is exorbitant and makes many schemes unprofitable. It charges more for Scottish renewable generators to access and export electricity than anywhere else in the UK. The National Grid was privatised in 1990 by Thatcher's Tory Gov and is now primarily owned by banks and venture capitalists like Macquarie, CIC, Qatar, etc. Any wonder why they are charging more for renewable generators to enter the grid?

A well-designed connection and access regime should be agnostic as regards ownership, The connection agreement process should be based on system engineering requirements and access should be dealt with by an economic regulatory regime based on best-practice utility regulation.

If I find time I shall look into this.

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:51 pm**

MungoMan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:18 amEffective pumped hydro storage (PHS) doesn't rely on Swiss-sized mountains. If it did there would be no existing PHS is Australia and none planned. Yet it certainly does exist here and more is planned (and not merely pipe-dream stuff, e.g. Snowy 2.0 is under construction).

OTOH, the UK is constrained by its land area cf. its population, altho' suitable sites may nevertheless exist.

I have posted this before, but there are several hydro schemes in Scotland that are fed by water dropping out of loch created dams into natural lochs several hundred feet lower. Finlarig is an excellent example near me where the water drops into Loch Tay. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to create diversions in the pipes at each end so that water can either be used to generate power, or by switching the flow, water can be pumped back up to the higher loch to be used as pumped storage.

Obviously, this would be pointless if the dam was already full, but I use this particular example as it has been literally years since the dam was full. The hydro infrastructure up here was put in during the 1950s and has been run hard for a number of years. So no matter how much rain we get, the reservoirs are never full. https://www.sserenewables.com/hydro/breadalbane/

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:20 pm**

weegie01 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:51 pm
MungoMan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:18 amEffective pumped hydro storage (PHS) doesn't rely on Swiss-sized mountains. If it did there would be no existing PHS is Australia and none planned. Yet it certainly does exist here and more is planned (and not merely pipe-dream stuff, e.g. Snowy 2.0 is under construction).

OTOH, the UK is constrained by its land area cf. its population, altho' suitable sites may nevertheless exist.
I have posted this before, but there are several hydro schemes in Scotland that are fed by water dropping out of loch created dams into natural lochs several hundred feet lower. Finlarig is an excellent example near me where the water drops into Loch Tay. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to create diversions in the pipes at each end so that water can either be used to generate power, or by switching the flow, water can be pumped back up to the higher loch to be used as pumped storage.

Obviously, this would be pointless if the dam was already full, but I use this particular example as it has been literally years since the dam was full. The hydro infrastructure up here was put in during the 1950s and has been run hard for a number of years. So no matter how much rain we get, the reservoirs are never full. https://www.sserenewables.com/hydro/breadalbane/

We've 2 of them in North Wales..

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:58 pm**

TB63 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:20 pm
weegie01 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:51 pm
MungoMan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:18 amEffective pumped hydro storage (PHS) doesn't rely on Swiss-sized mountains. If it did there would be no existing PHS is Australia and none planned. Yet it certainly does exist here and more is planned (and not merely pipe-dream stuff, e.g. Snowy 2.0 is under construction).

OTOH, the UK is constrained by its land area cf. its population, altho' suitable sites may nevertheless exist.
I have posted this before, but there are several hydro schemes in Scotland that are fed by water dropping out of loch created dams into natural lochs several hundred feet lower. Finlarig is an excellent example near me where the water drops into Loch Tay. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to create diversions in the pipes at each end so that water can either be used to generate power, or by switching the flow, water can be pumped back up to the higher loch to be used as pumped storage.

Obviously, this would be pointless if the dam was already full, but I use this particular example as it has been literally years since the dam was full. The hydro infrastructure up here was put in during the 1950s and has been run hard for a number of years. So no matter how much rain we get, the reservoirs are never full. https://www.sserenewables.com/hydro/breadalbane/

We've 2 of them in North Wales..

Third one being built at Glyn Rhonwy near Llanberis.

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:30 pm**

MungoMan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:35 am
dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:45 am
MungoMan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:18 am
Effective pumped hydro storage (PHS) doesn't rely on Swiss-sized mountains. If it did there would be no existing PHS is Australia and none planned. Yet it certainly does exist here and more is planned (and not merely pipe-dream stuff, e.g. Snowy 2.0 is under construction).

OTOH, the UK is constrained by its land area cf. its population, altho' suitable sites may nevertheless exist.
Scotland has plenty of capacity for more hydro schemes as mentioned above however the cost of exporting electricity via the National Grid is exorbitant and makes many schemes unprofitable. It charges more for Scottish renewable generators to access and export electricity than anywhere else in the UK. The National Grid was privatised in 1990 by Thatcher's Tory Gov and is now primarily owned by banks and venture capitalists like Macquarie, CIC, Qatar, etc. Any wonder why they are charging more for renewable generators to enter the grid?

A well-designed connection and access regime should be agnostic as regards ownership, The connection agreement process should be based on system engineering requirements and access should be dealt with by an economic regulatory regime based on best-practice utility regulation.

If I find time I shall look into this.

Dont disagree with this apart from the need to ensure energy security as a national priority over profit. However if we are serious about renewables then the problem is that they are often not located close to major centres of population ie wind and tidal power in north of Scotland and North Sea whilst major consumption is in SE England. I am not sure the regulator is effective in the energy market. As the article from May 2021 I posted the link to says;

'The analysis shows that on average, EU generators pay £0.46 per megawatt hour (MWh) in transmission system charges, while in Scotland the average is £6.42/MWh this year. Move to the windy north of Scotland and the price spikes to £7.36/MWh, with prices forecast to rise further still.'

This isn't me making a political point, although many would argue it is deliberately holding back the renewable sector in Scotland, it is about ensuring a fair market for renewable sector. However this charging structure does hold back on renewable generation and probably makes other forms of generation such as gas and including nuclear a more viable option, probably deliberately?

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:20 pm**

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:30 pm
MungoMan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:35 am
dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:45 am

Scotland has plenty of capacity for more hydro schemes as mentioned above however the cost of exporting electricity via the National Grid is exorbitant and makes many schemes unprofitable. It charges more for Scottish renewable generators to access and export electricity than anywhere else in the UK. The National Grid was privatised in 1990 by Thatcher's Tory Gov and is now primarily owned by banks and venture capitalists like Macquarie, CIC, Qatar, etc. Any wonder why they are charging more for renewable generators to enter the grid?

A well-designed connection and access regime should be agnostic as regards ownership, The connection agreement process should be based on system engineering requirements and access should be dealt with by an economic regulatory regime based on best-practice utility regulation.

If I find time I shall look into this.
Dont disagree with this apart from the need to ensure energy security as a national priority over profit. However if we are serious about renewables then the problem is that they are often not located close to major centres of population ie wind and tidal power in north of Scotland and North Sea whilst major consumption is in SE England. I am not sure the regulator is effective in the energy market. As the article from May 2021 I posted the link to says;

'The analysis shows that on average, EU generators pay £0.46 per megawatt hour (MWh) in transmission system charges, while in Scotland the average is £6.42/MWh this year. Move to the windy north of Scotland and the price spikes to £7.36/MWh, with prices forecast to rise further still.'

This isn't me making a political point, although many would argue it is deliberately holding back the renewable sector in Scotland, it is about ensuring a fair market for renewable sector. However this charging structure does hold back on renewable generation and probably makes other forms of generation such as gas and including nuclear a more viable option, probably deliberately?

The final paragraph is most definitely you making a political point!

Costs for connection to the grid are pretty complex. There are the wires, substations, the cost of actually operating and balancing the grid. Currently connection costs for both producers and consumers encourage proximity so that the cost of the grid is minimized.

The optimal locations for offshore wind are mostly around England. For onshore wind, it's mostly Scotland. Onshore wind is a bunch cheaper than offshore so that will cover a lot of the difference in transmission costs.

Transmission costs to consumers in Northern Scotland are already subsidised by a levy on all the other generators to stop it being prohibitively expensive. If you'd like transmission costs for generators in Scotland to be subsidised then just say so.

If you want to subsidise the grid for generators then say so.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 4:22 am**

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:30 pm
MungoMan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:35 am
dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:45 am

Scotland has plenty of capacity for more hydro schemes as mentioned above however the cost of exporting electricity via the National Grid is exorbitant and makes many schemes unprofitable. It charges more for Scottish renewable generators to access and export electricity than anywhere else in the UK. The National Grid was privatised in 1990 by Thatcher's Tory Gov and is now primarily owned by banks and venture capitalists like Macquarie, CIC, Qatar, etc. Any wonder why they are charging more for renewable generators to enter the grid?

A well-designed connection and access regime should be agnostic as regards ownership, The connection agreement process should be based on system engineering requirements and access should be dealt with by an economic regulatory regime based on best-practice utility regulation.

If I find time I shall look into this.
Dont disagree with this apart from the need to ensure energy security as a national priority over profit. However if we are serious about renewables then the problem is that they are often not located close to major centres of population ie wind and tidal power in north of Scotland and North Sea whilst major consumption is in SE England. I am not sure the regulator is effective in the energy market. As the article from May 2021 I posted the link to says;

'The analysis shows that on average, EU generators pay £0.46 per megawatt hour (MWh) in transmission system charges, while in Scotland the average is £6.42/MWh this year. Move to the windy north of Scotland and the price spikes to £7.36/MWh, with prices forecast to rise further still.'

This isn't me making a political point, although many would argue it is deliberately holding back the renewable sector in Scotland, it is about ensuring a fair market for renewable sector. However this charging structure does hold back on renewable generation and probably makes other forms of generation such as gas and including nuclear a more viable option, probably deliberately?

I did have a look - mainly at the shortish report linked in the RenewableUK press release you linked earlier. I had not realised UK generators pay use of system (UOS) charges, and locational UOS chages at that.

Generators connected to the NEM grid (Australia's largest) don't pay what we call TUOS; that's payable by 'market customers' - entities registered with the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) to purchase energy - which are principally electricity retailers.

For years now the NEM's energy rulemaker, the Australian Energy Market Commission (AEMC), has been trying to talk the key players into some form of access reform whereby generators would pay access fees. So far the AEMC has had no success whatsoever as just about all the different electricity sectors are resolutely opposed to it, ditto the relevant governments.

The issue of location - that of generation source vis-a-vis that of load centres - is dealt with via a different mechanism built into AEMO's dispatch and pricing algorithm. That too has been, and still is, a cause of much dissent and angst.

EDIT

The report noted the absence of a zero emissions objective meant Ofgem had no legal basis to take certain steps which otherwise might be available to it. That's been the case here too for about twenty years, but the various governments now seem to be agreed upon inserting an emissions leg into the National Energy Objective. That should make a material difference in certain decisions taken by AEMO, AEMC and the Australian Energy Regulator.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:53 am**

GogLais wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:58 pm
TB63 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:20 pm
weegie01 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:51 pm

I have posted this before, but there are several hydro schemes in Scotland that are fed by water dropping out of loch created dams into natural lochs several hundred feet lower. Finlarig is an excellent example near me where the water drops into Loch Tay. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to create diversions in the pipes at each end so that water can either be used to generate power, or by switching the flow, water can be pumped back up to the higher loch to be used as pumped storage.

Obviously, this would be pointless if the dam was already full, but I use this particular example as it has been literally years since the dam was full. The hydro infrastructure up here was put in during the 1950s and has been run hard for a number of years. So no matter how much rain we get, the reservoirs are never full. https://www.sserenewables.com/hydro/breadalbane/

We've 2 of them in North Wales..
Third one being built at Glyn Rhonwy near Llanberis.

I've stood inside one of the Outlets in the Dinorwig Power Station - attaching stress gauges to the Ball gate - farking unnerving having a slight drip of water sliding down it

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:04 pm**

mat the expat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:53 am
GogLais wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:58 pm
TB63 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:20 pm

We've 2 of them in North Wales..
Third one being built at Glyn Rhonwy near Llanberis.
I've stood inside one of the Outlets in the Dinorwig Power Station - attaching stress gauges to the Ball gate - farking unnerving having a slight drip of water sliding down it

Hydro and pumped hydro stations are pretty neat. I was fortunate enough to be given a tour of Splityard Creek pumped hydro station about twenty years back, and it was fascinating.

The pumped hydro facility was something of an afterthought to Wivenhoe Dam. The dam proper was built primarily as a flood mitigation impoundment after the 1974 SE Qld flood and, back when I was doing shit clerical / admin work, one of my jobs was buying screws, paint, metal coatings etc for the dam's construction.

Consequently I was kinda pleased when, many years later and after having morphed into an energy policy boffin, I was shown through the generation plant.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:31 pm**

MungoMan wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:04 pm
mat the expat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:53 am
GogLais wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:58 pm
Third one being built at Glyn Rhonwy near Llanberis.
I've stood inside one of the Outlets in the Dinorwig Power Station - attaching stress gauges to the Ball gate - farking unnerving having a slight drip of water sliding down it
Hydro and pumped hydro stations are pretty neat. I was fortunate enough to be given a tour of Splityard Creek pumped hydro station about twenty years back, and it was fascinating.

The pumped hydro facility was something of an afterthought to Wivenhoe Dam. The dam proper was built primarily as a flood mitigation impoundment after the 1974 SE Qld flood and, back when I was doing shit clerical / admin work, one of my jobs was buying screws, paint, metal coatings etc for the dam's construction.

Consequently I was kinda pleased when, many years later and after having morphed into an energy policy boffin, I was shown through the generation plant.

Many years ago I had a tour of the hydro plant that was used by British Alcan for the aluminium smelter there. Built in 1920's I think it was a brilliant example of post Victorian engineering. Was escorted round by an old guy who worked there as an engineer for the whole of his life. As we went down the row of generators he shouted out to a colleague that there was something wrong with No3 - they opened inspection hatch to see a dead sheep blocking a filter. Apparently this happened on a regular basis. The daily log book was interesting - every day had same sentence along the lines of 'everything working, nothing to report' apart from one entry in 1940s I think that said 'everything working, nothing to report - got bombed today'. Both bombs dropped failed to detonate! Apparently the engineer on duty hoisted a bomb onto a trolley, wheeled it out of the plant and went back to work! They were made of different stuff in those days.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 7:35 pm**

Why haven't the energy price cuts happened?
I believe that the cost of whole sale gas is now less than before the Ukraine war.
Prices rise quckly enough biut never drop as speedily.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:10 pm**

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:02 pm
C69 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 7:35 pm Why haven't the energy price cuts happened?
I believe that the cost of whole sale gas is now less than before the Ukraine war.
Prices rise quckly enough biut never drop as speedily.
Uncertainty and the price is for future supply. But mainly Uncertainty. And they are scamming bastards

Gas suppliers in UK don’t have local storage, so they had to buy enough gas 6 months ago to fuel the whole winter at higher prices. They pass on those high prices to us because they can’t buy cheap gas to sell now.

They won’t drop their prices until next winter.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:33 pm**

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:10 pm
EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:02 pm
C69 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 7:35 pm Why haven't the energy price cuts happened?
I believe that the cost of whole sale gas is now less than before the Ukraine war.
Prices rise quckly enough biut never drop as speedily.
Uncertainty and the price is for future supply. But mainly Uncertainty. And they are scamming bastards
Gas suppliers in UK don’t have local storage, so they had to buy enough gas 6 months ago to fuel the whole winter at higher prices. They pass on those high prices to us because they can’t buy cheap gas to sell now.

They won’t drop their prices until next winter.

It's great isn't it ?

The got rid of their storage capacity, because they didn't like the costs of maintaining it; & because they knew that the Tories would always let them pass any costs for their own moronic decisions onto their customers.

Doesn't matter if it's trains, water, gas or electricity, & now the NHS.The Tories will run it down, privatize it so the shareholders can run it down even further, to get their dividends. The gospel of "Market Forces" is all they know.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:34 pm**

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:10 pm
EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:02 pm
C69 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 7:35 pm Why haven't the energy price cuts happened?
I believe that the cost of whole sale gas is now less than before the Ukraine war.
Prices rise quckly enough biut never drop as speedily.
Uncertainty and the price is for future supply. But mainly Uncertainty. And they are scamming bastards
Gas suppliers in UK don’t have local storage, so they had to buy enough gas 6 months ago to fuel the whole winter at higher prices. They pass on those high prices to us because they can’t buy cheap gas to sell now.

They won’t drop their prices until next winter.

However my question is unanswered how can they raise prices quckly repeatedly in the past but never drop so quickly

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:43 pm**

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:10 pm
EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:02 pm
C69 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 7:35 pm Why haven't the energy price cuts happened?
I believe that the cost of whole sale gas is now less than before the Ukraine war.
Prices rise quckly enough biut never drop as speedily.
Uncertainty and the price is for future supply. But mainly Uncertainty. And they are scamming bastards
Gas suppliers in UK don’t have local storage, so they had to buy enough gas 6 months ago to fuel the whole winter at higher prices. They pass on those high prices to us because they can’t buy cheap gas to sell now.

They won’t drop their prices until next winter.

They are likely to drop quite a bit then as well.

The reason I know this is that my gas supplier called me up and offered me an 18 month fixed tariff. They have only EVER done this when prices are about to drop.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:17 pm**

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:52 am**

MungoMan wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:04 pm
mat the expat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:53 am
GogLais wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:58 pm
Third one being built at Glyn Rhonwy near Llanberis.
I've stood inside one of the Outlets in the Dinorwig Power Station - attaching stress gauges to the Ball gate - farking unnerving having a slight drip of water sliding down it
Hydro and pumped hydro stations are pretty neat. I was fortunate enough to be given a tour of Splityard Creek pumped hydro station about twenty years back, and it was fascinating.

The pumped hydro facility was something of an afterthought to Wivenhoe Dam. The dam proper was built primarily as a flood mitigation impoundment after the 1974 SE Qld flood and, back when I was doing shit clerical / admin work, one of my jobs was buying screws, paint, metal coatings etc for the dam's construction.

Consequently I was kinda pleased when, many years later and after having morphed into an energy policy boffin, I was shown through the generation plant.

Do you know which one in Oz flooded?

The tech I worked with took great pleasure in telling me how fast it flooded.....

I'd have loved to work there, but it was just work experience at school.

Great reuse of an industrial wasteland:

Inside this:

https://hackaday.com/2017/07/12/places- ... -mountain/

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:21 am**

mat the expat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:52 am
MungoMan wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:04 pm
mat the expat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:53 am

I've stood inside one of the Outlets in the Dinorwig Power Station - attaching stress gauges to the Ball gate - farking unnerving having a slight drip of water sliding down it
Hydro and pumped hydro stations are pretty neat. I was fortunate enough to be given a tour of Splityard Creek pumped hydro station about twenty years back, and it was fascinating.

The pumped hydro facility was something of an afterthought to Wivenhoe Dam. The dam proper was built primarily as a flood mitigation impoundment after the 1974 SE Qld flood and, back when I was doing shit clerical / admin work, one of my jobs was buying screws, paint, metal coatings etc for the dam's construction.

Consequently I was kinda pleased when, many years later and after having morphed into an energy policy boffin, I was shown through the generation plant.
Do you know which one in Oz flooded?

The tech I worked with took great pleasure in telling me how fast it flooded.....

I'd have loved to work there, but it was just work experience at school.

Great reuse of an industrial wasteland:

Inside this:

https://hackaday.com/2017/07/12/places- ... -mountain/

One in Tassie, I think. I seem to recall a regular on an energy forum mentioning it (but not at the time).

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:47 am**

Either there or WA

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:07 pm**

Just got some oil ... the village has an oil club so we group together and get cheapest oil at that time. My last orders were

Oct 2020 29p/litre
Jan 2021 32p/litre
April 2021 38p/litre
Dec 2021 50p/litre
April 2022 95p/litre
Jan 2023 71p/litre

I was down to about 1/3 tank so thay is why I bought this month,
The prices do seem to be dropping.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:10 pm**

Not too surprising lately that supply to the grid from wind power has led to a huge drop in gas and coal use. Still having to import ~15% of supply from across the channel though

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:19 pm**

Ymx wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:50 am UK can’t seem to store its energy very well.

Surely that’s the first port of call for investment.

Gas storage would be the first no brainer.

Even wind power storage. Not batteries though, as I don’t think that scales. I had wondered about storing the excess wind energy in to something like gravitational potential energy? Eg topping up a dam and then later on, to realise it, using hydroelectric.

Or doing the equivalent with tidal energy.

Plenty of people have already thought about this idea. At a fundamental level that's what pump storage hydro is. But there's other proposals; a fair old whack of research has gone in and the conclusion is it's difficult to scale. But it might work. For example there are these guys

https://heindl-energy.com/technical-con ... c-concept/

and these guys

https://gravitricity.com/

who have very similar concepts but are only at early stage concept demonstrator type level.

Flywheels and compressed air storage seem more likely at the moment, but they're also a fair old way off being a large scale usable technology.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:23 pm**

I've switched the electricity supply for my Dutch home over to an hourly-rate supplier. Meaning you pay whatever the energy cost on the market is for that particular hour, plus set charges from the supplier.

Since beginning of Jan, night rates (between 12-6AM) hover between 17-20 Eurocents/hour. Daytime rates vary between 30-40 Eurocents/hour. Compare with my previous supplier, whose contract renewal offer was for 88 Eurocents/hour, it's a no-brainer. And this is supposed to be the most expensive month, with high energy demand and no contribution from solar. Once the sunshine kicks in, expectation is that daytime prices could approach and actually go below 0 cents/hour.

Downside is, if things go tits up and the market explodes, I'm fucked.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2023 5:26 pm**

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:10 pm Not too surprising lately that supply to the grid from wind power has led to a huge drop in gas and coal use. Still having to import ~15% of supply from across the channel though

We don't import electricity because we have to. We import when it's cheaper.

Posted: **Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:34 am**

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 5:26 pm
tabascoboy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:10 pm Not too surprising lately that supply to the grid from wind power has led to a huge drop in gas and coal use. Still having to import ~15% of supply from across the channel though
We don't import electricity because we have to. We import when it's cheaper.

Ditto here; and altho' 'here' is a single country, each of the eastern and southern states has a new regional reference price every five minutes. That said, the market operator's dispatch engine is actually solving for the entire market.

As a consequence, unless one of the constraint equations in the dispatch engine prevents it, lower priced offers from (say) NSW generators will displace higher priced offers from Qld generators and power will flow north via the interconnector/s.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:07 pm**

Predictable...but am I missing something obvious* here? British Gas profits are quite a moderate part of the £3.3 billion profit but only £75m of the remainder after tax was provided for "supporting customers"? Would it really hurt Centrica to substantially increase that amount and cut prices for the next quarter regardless of the inevitable huge rise in the forthcoming energy price cap? Why can't they divert some of the excess profits from its energy production sector into subsidising the supply sector? The Government's rebate scheme for customers is pretty irrelevant since that money likely ends up being paid back to suppliers anyway, and now wholesale prices have been falling for some time.

* the obvious I suspect being powerful shareholder interests and "rewarding investors" more important than poor customers!

British Gas owner Centrica has posted huge profits after oil and gas prices soared last year, sparking renewed calls for energy firms to pay more tax.

Its profits hit £3.3bn for 2022, more than triple the £948m it made in 2021.

Energy firms have seen record profits since oil and gas prices jumped following Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

The figures come after British Gas was criticised over its use of debt agents to force-fit prepayment meters in the homes of vulnerable customers.

Energy firms have faced huge pressure to pay more tax in the UK on their profits, as many households struggle with higher gas and electricity bills.

The End Fuel Poverty Coalition campaign group said the energy market was "failing consumers and is in desperate need of reform".

But Centrica boss Chris O'Shea said the company last year invested £75m in supporting customers of British Gas, the UK's largest electricity and gas supplier, providing "much needed stability and support".

Windfall tax
Most of Centrica's bumper profits came from its nuclear and oil and gas business, rather than from the British Gas energy supply business, which contributed £72m out of the £3.3bn profit. The overall profit figure also included the impact of selling its Spirit Energy oil and gas business in May.

Centrica said British Gas's profits had actually decreased by 39% compared to 2021's levels, largely because of "voluntary donations made to support customers" and the repayment of furlough funds from the pandemic.

The company said it paid about £1bn in tax relating to its 2022 profits.

Of that, about £54m was paid as result of the windfall tax - called the Energy Profits Levy - which was introduced by the government last year to recoup some of the "extraordinary" earnings made by firms, and to help fund lower gas and electricity bills for households.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:30 pm**

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:07 pm Predictable...but am I missing something obvious* here? British Gas profits are quite a moderate part of the £3.3 billion profit but only £75m of the remainder after tax was provided for "supporting customers"? Would it really hurt Centrica to substantially increase that amount and cut prices for the next quarter regardless of the inevitable huge rise in the forthcoming energy price cap? Why can't they divert some of the excess profits from its energy production sector into subsidising the supply sector? The Government's rebate scheme for customers is pretty irrelevant since that money likely ends up being paid back to suppliers anyway, and now wholesale prices have been falling for some time.

* the obvious I suspect being powerful shareholder interests and "rewarding investors" more important than poor customers!

British Gas owner Centrica has posted huge profits after oil and gas prices soared last year, sparking renewed calls for energy firms to pay more tax.

Its profits hit £3.3bn for 2022, more than triple the £948m it made in 2021.

Energy firms have seen record profits since oil and gas prices jumped following Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

The figures come after British Gas was criticised over its use of debt agents to force-fit prepayment meters in the homes of vulnerable customers.

Energy firms have faced huge pressure to pay more tax in the UK on their profits, as many households struggle with higher gas and electricity bills.

The End Fuel Poverty Coalition campaign group said the energy market was "failing consumers and is in desperate need of reform".

But Centrica boss Chris O'Shea said the company last year invested £75m in supporting customers of British Gas, the UK's largest electricity and gas supplier, providing "much needed stability and support".

Windfall tax
Most of Centrica's bumper profits came from its nuclear and oil and gas business, rather than from the British Gas energy supply business, which contributed £72m out of the £3.3bn profit. The overall profit figure also included the impact of selling its Spirit Energy oil and gas business in May.

Centrica said British Gas's profits had actually decreased by 39% compared to 2021's levels, largely because of "voluntary donations made to support customers" and the repayment of furlough funds from the pandemic.

The company said it paid about £1bn in tax relating to its 2022 profits.

Of that, about £54m was paid as result of the windfall tax - called the Energy Profits Levy - which was introduced by the government last year to recoup some of the "extraordinary" earnings made by firms, and to help fund lower gas and electricity bills for households.

Spare a thought for these companies how can you make more profit with people using less energy without raising prices. They have to maximise every opportunity.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2023 5:12 pm**

petej wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:52 pm
Slick wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 12:29 am Our energy bill was £4 this month
The standing charge alone is now £25 per month. With not being able to move suppliers due to energy cap can we just call bullshit on this electricity "market".

As suspected, and pointed out to them of 4 occasions, they fucked up…. Can really do without the massive bill they have just sent to catch up… cunts

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:53 pm**

Guy Martin on C4 at the moment.. pretty good !

Posted: **Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:50 pm**

So then, with the cap reducing by about 25% from next month and wholesale gas prices plunging - has anyone heard from their suppliers what the new standing charges and tariffs will be?

All I had so far was from 2 weeks ago saying they will "be in touch about what this means for you", and nothing on their websites

Posted: **Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:50 pm**

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:50 pm So then, with the cap reducing by about 25% from next month and wholesale gas prices plunging - has anyone heard from their suppliers what the new standing charges and tariffs will be?

All I had so far was from 2 weeks ago saying they will "be in touch about what this means for you", and nothing on their websites

Ain't gonna go down much, because you weren't paying the full price - you weren't even paying the standard cap amount that normally sets the price.

Do people not actually realise that?

Posted: **Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:54 pm**

Wholesale Gas prices fell again today, to about 60p per therm. That's starting to get back to the pre 2021 long term average. But the price is set on the previous (I think) ten months in order to flatten out variations. And for most of that time it was over £2/therm. So it'll come down a wee bit more this year but the key thing is what happens to prices this winter.

Posted: **Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:46 pm**

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:50 pm
tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:50 pm So then, with the cap reducing by about 25% from next month and wholesale gas prices plunging - has anyone heard from their suppliers what the new standing charges and tariffs will be?

All I had so far was from 2 weeks ago saying they will "be in touch about what this means for you", and nothing on their websites
Ain't gonna go down much, because you weren't paying the full price - you weren't even paying the standard cap amount that normally sets the price.

Do people not actually realise that?

Of course but even so in theory unit prices should fall even if they increase standing charges. It may be only a small decrease but every little helps! Also my usage is comparatively low - I'm just curious if the argument is going to be that prices have been "artificially low" for years not just recently and prices are now being "corrected". As normal once prices have gone up they rarely come back down again and competition is minimal since so many small suppliers went belly up.

Posted: **Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:44 pm**

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:46 pm
Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:50 pm
tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:50 pm So then, with the cap reducing by about 25% from next month and wholesale gas prices plunging - has anyone heard from their suppliers what the new standing charges and tariffs will be?

All I had so far was from 2 weeks ago saying they will "be in touch about what this means for you", and nothing on their websites
Ain't gonna go down much, because you weren't paying the full price - you weren't even paying the standard cap amount that normally sets the price.

Do people not actually realise that?
Of course but even so in theory unit prices should fall even if they increase standing charges. It may be only a small decrease but every little helps! Also my usage is comparatively low - I'm just curious if the argument is going to be that prices have been "artificially low" for years not just recently and prices are now being "corrected". As normal once prices have gone up they rarely come back down again and competition is minimal since so many small suppliers went belly up.

Fair enough. One of the things that's been hidden by the Ukraine war is that we were heading into a higher priced energy market anyway. Gas prices had doubled in the middle of 2021,before Putler started threatening Ukraine. They were held low by opec policies and more importantly by US shale gas. But the ever increasing demand for energy meant the prices had started going up in a significant way, even apart from the war. However the actions taken to diversify supply might alleviate some of that.

Posted: **Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:46 pm**

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:50 pm So then, with the cap reducing by about 25% from next month and wholesale gas prices plunging - has anyone heard from their suppliers what the new standing charges and tariffs will be?

All I had so far was from 2 weeks ago saying they will "be in touch about what this means for you", and nothing on their websites

From £150 a year ago... to £388 last summer.... and now.. £498 a month till Dec... nasty business...

Posted: **Thu Jun 22, 2023 1:07 pm**

Just had the new annual estimate for the gas supply tariff:

Previous tariff cost: £882
New tariff cost: £672

Based on same usage of course which I reduced compared to the previous 12 months when prices were lower. Quite a saving nonetheless

Unit rate = 7.538p per kWh
Standing charge = 29.106p per day

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 10:53 am**

New price cap, 1 July. Do your meter readings Friday 30th.

Hilariously amusing that my supplier have emailed me to remind to do a meter reading as a matter of urgency... I'm on a 'smart' meter

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:49 pm**

We are away last week so nobody in. It seems that over 50% of our electricity bill/usage is made up by items on all the time (fridge, freezer and Sky box).
The average was just over a £1 per day and our average when "she who must be obeyed" and I are at home is about £1.88. We rarely use the freezer so that is going to be emptied and not used apart from Christmas when the kids come home for feeding and presents.
Every little helps to reduce costs.

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:05 pm**

The electric cooker oven is the big culprit for me, as a single person heating single servings the usage really shoots up when it's on - and even more so with a hob on at the same time. In summer just use it as little as possible and the saving is very noticeable. Have looked into other options like a combi microwave or air fryer, but the more I check things out just makes me more confused about what I want/need

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:20 pm**

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:05 pm The electric cooker oven is the big culprit for me, as a single person heating single servings the usage really shoots up when it's on - and even more so with a hob on at the same time. In summer just use it as little as possible and the saving is very noticeable. Have looked into other options like a combi microwave or air fryer, but the more I check things out just makes me more confused about what I want/need

Combi micro heats up when used as a fan oven quicker than your cooker, so that's a win. Can't say much about the air fryer fad as it's a compact fan oven at the end of the day, same as a combi microwave..
Get a gas BBQ with rotisserie, use mine 4 or 5 times a week..

NPR

UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices

Re: UK Home energy prices