NPR

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 4:35 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 2:24 pm Bit harsh giving out about the backs when the forwards got reamed.

Good thing we've resigned Greg Jones, EOS and McCann then, while potentially not replacing a lad that won MoM in a World Cup final, a Lion LH, a NZ capped tighthead, Hendy and a 20+ cap Aussie international then.

Leinster are in for it next year

Edit. Forgot that we are supposedly bringing in Kitshoff, which will be a start. But we basically need a whole new pack beyond that.

You can't import all those guys. Going to have to develop them.
Same goes for Munster too.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:01 pm

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 4:35 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 2:24 pm Bit harsh giving out about the backs when the forwards got reamed.

Good thing we've resigned Greg Jones, EOS and McCann then, while potentially not replacing a lad that won MoM in a World Cup final, a Lion LH, a NZ capped tighthead, Hendy and a 20+ cap Aussie international then.

Leinster are in for it next year

Edit. Forgot that we are supposedly bringing in Kitshoff, which will be a start. But we basically need a whole new pack beyond that.

You can't import all those guys. Going to have to develop them.
Same goes for Munster too.

Harry Sheridan looks a decent prospect from the academy. A no-nonsense lock/backrow.

McCann needs a massive boot up the arse as he has the potential.

Stewart has been excellent this year, although his darts need a bit of improvement. Hopefully will come with time.

Apart from that the cupboard is fairly empty for forwards.

Going to be a long haul for both teams. We've got prospects from 4-8 but it's slim pickings in the front row. Need Buckley to come good at 2. I'm going to lose my mind if we're still playing either Scannell next year.

I can accept being shit. What I can't accept is being shit with military medium imports. If there's going to be imports, they need to earn their keep.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:12 pm Going to be a long haul for both teams. We've got prospects from 4-8 but it's slim pickings in the front row. Need Buckley to come good at 2. I'm going to lose my mind if we're still playing either Scannell next year.

I can accept being shit. What I can't accept is being shit with military medium imports. If there's going to be imports, they need to earn their keep.

As I posted on the other place, Munster have a top level player vacuum for the purposes of bringing younger players through. You've got Murray for Casey and Beirne/POM for the second/back row but outside that it's a real issue. I agree with you completely that Munster need some key top level signings. A prop and a really top level experienced 10/outside back would be great.

Leinster did this type of thing for years. Arguably we're only starting to stand on our own two feet in that regard recently with Fardy not long gone.

Fundamentally Limerick are the problem and solution. There's very few players coming through from there anymore and few forwards worth talking about. Until that's resolved, there's no comeback from Munster.

It was a problem before that.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:17 am It was a problem before that.

Appart from a certain T.F. no forward ever played hurling and was any good at it

I think we are getting to the situation that the sheer volume of good players being produced by Leinster need to be distributed even more than already across the provinces.

Take the backrow. Leinster's stocks in order of choice are probably:

Doris
VDF
Conan
Baird
Ruddock
Deegan
Connors
Penny

All apart from Penny (I think) lads with international experience. Plus I'm sure there is a load of decent academy lads in the background.

Meanwhile Ulster's pecking order for next year is:

Rea
Timoney
Ewers
McCann
Sheridan
Reffell
Jones
Matty Rea

Night and day difference in quality.

Ulster and Munster should be moving heaven and Earth to bring in the likes of Deegan and Penny, instead of journeyman Saffers and English. They are quality players that will never be first choice at Leinster, but would add serious value to Ulster and Munster.

That said, both Ulster and Munster need to be held accountable for their piss poor player development. Especially Ulster. Think Hendy is our only fully home grown international forward since Chris Henry and Fez ffs.

Don't agree. We need to address deficits in player production internally. There was a time when the AIL was a Munster dominated competition. With Leinster finally having fully harnessed the schools production line, it's unlikely that it'll ever go back to that but there's no reason why they can't be competitive.

And if we're being blunt here, the classic hard-as-nails Limerick forward is exactly what Munster are missing right now.

There's more players from west Cork in the Munster squad than there are from limerick. It's scandalous this has been allowed to happen.
Paddy Kelly and Kilcoyne are the only two limerick forwards in the squad.

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:31 am

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:17 am It was a problem before that.

Appart from a certain T.F. no forward ever played hurling and was any good at it

Gtfo
https://www.balls.ie/rugby/tipperary-br ... 20s-541348

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/donnacha ... iew-151113

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 9:09 am Don't agree. We need to address deficits in player production internally. There was a time when the AIL was a Munster dominated competition. With Leinster finally having fully harnessed the schools production line, it's unlikely that it'll ever go back to that but there's no reason why they can't be competitive.

And if we're being blunt here, the classic hard-as-nails Limerick forward is exactly what Munster are missing right now.

There's more players from west Cork in the Munster squad than there are from limerick. It's scandalous this has been allowed to happen.
Paddy Kelly and Kilcoyne are the only two limerick forwards in the squad.

Its going to take years of focus to solve this problem for both provinces. No use in prolonging the period both sides have been gash for. Plus if the penny hasn't dropped yet that this is a serious issue, I'm not sure it ever will with the powers that be in both branches.

Leinster have lads right now who are quality and are only getting gametime against shite Welsh and Italian sides who they are steamrolling. Short term they could be thrown into weaker packs to develop their games instead of the armchair ride they get in the Leinster system.

Well, that's not true that our wider squad only play against weak Welsh and Italians. I mean we have a very recent example where they played against a strong Stormers side and they're about to go down to play the Lions (OK, fair enough) and Bulls and they regularly rotate in to play in the interpros.

You've got Penny in the wrong place on your list. Recent evidence suggests he's 5th choice behind the main quartet and he'll probably start on Friday.

But what makes Leinster and those players tick is the whole system from grassroots up. The pro squad is just the tip of the iceberg and we're greater than the sum of our parts. Not every player you mention would excel elsewhere and not many players leave Leinster and have a great career. Short term, the other provinces are probably better off getting real quality from abroad and fixing their systems rather than relying on Leinster because I think you run the risk of generating 4 average provinces if we try and spread the talent around.

If Leinster add one quality back row to their stocks every 2nd year from their academy (which is the minimum what all provinces should be striving for), then there just isn't enough games to go around for the players surely. Leinster castoffs should be higher quality, hungrier and probably cheaper than foreign journeymen.

Plus the bonus for the players is that they are a few hours from home and are boosting their potential for international honours by staying in Ireland.

Given the sheer depth that Leinster have, losing 2 lads from that list won't hurt their strength. I fail to see any short term downsides for all parties, apart from Ulster and Munster relying on Leinster, which should be priority number 1 to be resolved in the medium/long term.

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:31 am If Leinster add one quality back row to their stocks every 2nd year from their academy (which is the minimum what all provinces should be striving for), then there just isn't enough games to go around for the players surely. Leinster castoffs should be higher quality, hungrier and probably cheaper than foreign journeymen.

Plus the bonus for the players is that they are a few hours from home and are boosting their potential for international honours by staying in Ireland.

Given the sheer depth that Leinster have, losing 2 lads from that list won't hurt their strength. I fail to see any short term downsides for all parties, apart from Ulster and Munster relying on Leinster, which should be priority number 1 to be resolved in the medium/long term.

Of your list, Ruddock is nearing retirement, Conan is 30 and VDF about to turn 30 and Connors has yet to fully show he's capable of his best after years of struggling with injury. He could yet go the Leavy route. Baird may end up at 6 or may end up in the second row.

It doesn't take much to tip the balance and the other provinces need quality not Leinster second string players anyway. The only player I could see really making a difference at Ulster is Penny and he's not far off replacing VDF.

Basically, any player that left that would make the other provinces more capable in Europe would make Leinster weaker in Europe.

The other thing to remember is that being involved with Leinster as a second string player within a shout of a big game here and there is preferable, currently, to playing for one of the other provinces. Penny is largely a second stringer but has still been involved with Ireland and will probably start a HEC QF this Friday. He'll probably be Leinster's first choice the season after next. It'd be a huge leap of faith to move.

Someone like Deegan is best placed to move for more gametime but he's still managed an Irish cap this season. I don't think he's the answer to any question Munster and Ulster are asking though. Might improve Ulster somewhat but not massively.

I guess my frustration is that we got shown up to be lightyears away from Leinster, so we re-sign plodders like Greg Jones.

With recruitment like that, and some of the other shockers we've had over the last 4 or 5 years, while simultaneously not developing forwards, no wonder we are shit. And the management don't seem to have a plan to resolve it.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 11:55 am You need to pay lads like me to coach your minis. Expenses and a small stipend of say 20k a year for a Wesnesday night zoom and I'll attend the Saturday match. By zoom

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:46 pm

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 11:55 am You need to pay lads like me to coach your minis. Expenses and a small stipend of say 20k a year for a Wesnesday night zoom and I'll attend the Saturday match. By zoom

More like

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 11:40 am I guess my frustration is that we got shown up to be lightyears away from Leinster, so we re-sign plodders like Greg Jones.

With recruitment like that, and some of the other shockers we've had over the last 4 or 5 years, while simultaneously not developing forwards, no wonder we are shit. And the management don't seem to have a plan to resolve it.

There was talk of Munster trying to tempt Penny south and he's a smashing player who I look forward to seeing get a start on Friday but really I'd rather we committed to giving Hodnett lots more game time.

Where there's a reasonable homegrown option, give them game time, especially when young. It's very frustrating to see guys get 3-4 games a year until their late 20's and then we belatedly realise they ain't up to much. Then we sign (and re-sign) similar standard foreign players to add to the dross.

Yeah, Munster don't need Penny. I reckon Hodnett would look as good in the Leinster setup.

Munster are arguably fine from 4-8 but Beirne is key.

There isn't really anyone in the front row you could raid us for. If Kelleher didn't have his problems, it'd be a bit of a luxury having both him and Sheahan but he does so it's moot.

In the backs, we have better FH options from a strength in depth POV but I wouldn't see any benefit moving one of the younger players (Ulster might benefit more there). We're not anymore blessed at SH or significantly ahead in the outside backs. You could say Osborne is too good to be benching at best but it won't be long before he's starting.

The thing is, as I said above, we've got our succession planning well oiled. If you cut the link between old and new, it falls down. As has happened in Munster and Ulster.

Are the Munster and Ulster underage systems run the same way as Leinsters, particularly where the club (ie non-schools) game is concerned; and if not, why not ?

Ulster's contract renewals so far this week:

The good

Andy Warwick
Luke Marshall

The meh, but we probably need them

John Andrew
EOS

The hit and hope

Ben Moxham

The WTAF

Angus Curtis
Greg Jones
Shea O'Brien
Callum Reid

Seen Reid at AIL level. He's a serious unit with a good skillset. Shame he hasn't been able to bring that to a higher level.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:49 pm Seen Reid at AIL level. He's a serious unit with a good skillset. Shame he hasn't been able to bring that to a higher level.

Another player that has shown a bit of promise but has barely featured over the last 2 seasons.

So naturally he gets a contract extension, just like Curtis, Greg Jones, O'Brien and Moxham. Just waiting for Will Addison to get a 3 year deal to top things off


Edit. We've also renewed Jake Flannery's contract. He's barely kicked a ball for Ulster this year, but here you go lad, another 3 year contract. The mind boggles. He might actually be decent, but why the fuck is he not playing. He's behind Burns, Madigan, Lowry and even Doak at 10 ffs.

Madigan must be close to retirement by this stage?

Injuries piling up for Leinster is not good for Ireland. We didn't get to see much of Doris at 7 and Baird will be a loss if he doesn't recover.

James Lowe getting injured celebrating a try is just fucking nuts.

PR seems to be down again.

Frop.E wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:33 am PR seems to be down again.

Not just my shitty rural connection, so.

Nols wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:27 am

Frop.E wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:33 am PR seems to be down again.

Not just my shitty rural connection, so.

Jake committing Hari Kari again?

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:47 am

Zig wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:00 am Injuries piling up for Leinster is not good for Ireland. We didn't get to see much of Doris at 7 and Baird will be a loss if he doesn't recover.

James Lowe getting injured celebrating a try is just fucking nuts.

One of our biggest problems is Byrne shovelling on ball. I like that he has taken a leaf out of Sexy's book and is a cranky fucker these days but he has to take the hits. The amount of time he fucks a ball at a lad who is inevitably going to get fucked up is wince inducing

You can get away with it for Leinster but at international level, he is just going to fill up ER's.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:47 am

Zig wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:00 am Injuries piling up for Leinster is not good for Ireland. We didn't get to see much of Doris at 7 and Baird will be a loss if he doesn't recover.

James Lowe getting injured celebrating a try is just fucking nuts.

One of our biggest problems is Byrne shovelling on ball. I like that he has taken a leaf out of Sexy's book and is a cranky fucker these days but he has to take the hits. The amount of time he fucks a ball at a lad who is inevitably going to get fucked up is wince inducing

The reality is that this didn't happen. Or at least not in numbers that makes it our 'biggest problem'. He played players into loads of gaps. Including for half the tries.

Our biggest issue yesterday was forwards overplaying the ball, taking one extra carry without support and getting turned over or making one extra tip on pass. Nearly every time play broke down it was due to this.

Byrne isn't Sexton. He's going to do average stuff with more regularity than the latter. But he does a significant amount of good. He's started pretty much all our important games this season, including all HEC games, and we're cruising in both competitions. Would Sexton have us playing even better? Of course. Is he a liability? Not at all. There's no picking up the pieces around him or compensating for him to any significant degree. As shown by his contributions to our scores and attacking play yesterday.

Thought there were quite a few loose offloads and general play by the pack yesterday, which isn't typical of the team at their best.
Hopefully they get a bit of a mental break and shakeup over the next few weeks and tighten up those bits for the semi.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 9:38 am Anything I write you contradict. He did and he does

Just reviewed the first half. Still looking.

I'll let you know after second half review.

Nols wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:02 am Thought there were quite a few loose offloads and general play by the pack yesterday, which isn't typical of the team at their best.
Hopefully they get a bit of a mental break and shakeup over the next few weeks and tighten up those bits for the semi.

Well, actually, it is typical but those offloads would have gone to hand earlier in the season. There was one in the first half when Conan tried to offload to Byrne, who would have been through a gap, but a combination of the offload being a bit low and Byrne overrunning slightly meant it went to ground. Another tip on from Furlong got knocked on by Leicester. Another time Sheahan looked for runners but no one offered themselves in good position so he was turned over. Small margins.

Do they normally offload quite so much? I thought the first half was a little bit loose.

anonymous_joe wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:21 am Do they normally offload quite so much? I thought the first half was a little bit loose.

I thought they seemed to be pushing it more than usual myself.

Yeah they were pushing it a bit more than usual but it worked in the end. Leicester were gassed by the half hour mark. The pace of the game killed them

Leinster are all about soft offloads to create space and soft shoulders.

Anyway, finished my review. Leinster management will be delighted with Byrne's performance, although a few average kicks from hand will mark him down and a couple of errors when he was trying stuff on with the game won. We made ground with nearly every one of his passes. Hey, even Leicester made loads off one!

I think there's very much confirmation bias going on with him. Any slight error is marked down massively. Any excellent bit of play disregarded as stopped clock right twice a day. It was a highly competent performance from a guy whose ceiling is between 7 and 8 out of 10 but rarely dips below 7. The Leo Cullen of FHs.

CM11 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:34 am Leinster are all about soft offloads to create space and soft shoulders.

Anyway, finished my review. Leinster management will be delighted with Byrne's performance, although a few average kicks from hand will mark him down and a couple of errors when he was trying stuff on with the game won. We made ground with nearly every one of his passes. Hey, even Leicester made loads off one!

I think there's very much confirmation bias going on with him. Any slight error is marked down massively. Any excellent bit of play disregarded as stopped clock right twice a day. It was a highly competent performance from a guy whose ceiling is between 7 and 8 out of 10 but rarely dips below 7. The Leo Cullen of FHs.

We all agree with that, I just thought they were doing it more than normal. I'll watch it back today, good way to face the hangover.

While I agree that the perception was we were trying it on a bit too much, there weren't as many incidents as I thought on review. Leicester fronted up well (although offside a fair bit) and got hands on the ball/disrupted well.

There were a couple of incidents where calmer heads would have seen us secure slow ball as opposed to being turned over but overall I think it was worth trying it on because we needed the practice to fine tune it. Toulouse won't be as generous in midfield next time out.