NPR

Wales must be due a bad campaign after spawning their way to the title last year. That might make the odds better.

Biffer wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:03 am

I like neeps wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:50 am

robmatic wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:51 pm

Realistically a lot of the games could just go either way and there might not be a lot of difference points-wise between winning and coming 5th. However, even in the crushing disappointment scenario, I can still see this team scoring tries and playing some decent rugby.

Didn't play well in autumn and did quite well. So I'm hopeful if we raise the level for the six nations we'll be very good.

I think this year, next year and the year after are Finn and Hogg's peak years. If we're going to challenge it has to be with them as tip of the spear.

Yes, and then again no. BOD was the headline once in a generation talent that spearheaded Irelands journey to become a top level side winning championships and beating the All Blacks. Ireland won the six nations twice with him in the team, second time he was 35. It's not unreasonable to say they've been more successful since he retired. It's the drive these players give across the whole structure that's the real change and I think / hope we'll see that in Scotland too. Players who are more accustomed to competing with and winning against the big sides are more common now than they were when Hogg came into the side and the entire team was used to losing.

Yes... But Ireland also have one of the best pathways in the world and their clubs are always competing in champions.cup knocks outs/Leinster have not not won the URC in a long time. And they were building this up when BOD was playing.

We just don't have the same level of set up to generate the success Ireland see.

I like neeps wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:02 pm

Biffer wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:03 am

I like neeps wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:50 am

Didn't play well in autumn and did quite well. So I'm hopeful if we raise the level for the six nations we'll be very good.

I think this year, next year and the year after are Finn and Hogg's peak years. If we're going to challenge it has to be with them as tip of the spear.

Yes, and then again no. BOD was the headline once in a generation talent that spearheaded Irelands journey to become a top level side winning championships and beating the All Blacks. Ireland won the six nations twice with him in the team, second time he was 35. It's not unreasonable to say they've been more successful since he retired. It's the drive these players give across the whole structure that's the real change and I think / hope we'll see that in Scotland too. Players who are more accustomed to competing with and winning against the big sides are more common now than they were when Hogg came into the side and the entire team was used to losing.

Yes... But Ireland also have one of the best pathways in the world and their clubs are always competing in champions.cup knocks outs/Leinster have not not won the URC in a long time. And they were building this up when BOD was playing.

We just don't have the same level of set up to generate the success Ireland see.

Yeah, and that reflects what Dodson said in his interview last week - we need to see Glasgow and Edinburgh in the knockout stages of Europe most years, and a third pro team. If current development continues, the first bit of that might be a few years away, the second bit the latter part of this decade. In the early part of BOD's career, Leinster weren't fixtures in the knockouts, Ulster only started getting there regularly towards the end of his career.

I don't mean I expect Glasgow and Edinburgh to do what Leinster and Munster did, but I expect them to regularly in the knockout stages in the next few years. That's achievable, the academy is producing more pro quality players than ever, so I'm optimistic.

In non-international news, seems that SHC is on his way to Treviso this summer. Probably a decent enough move for him as he's not getting a sniff at Exeter (fallen out with coaches?) and will be 2nd choice behind Duvenage.

robmatic wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:12 pm In non-international news, seems that SHC is on his way to Treviso this summer. Probably a decent enough move for him as he's not getting a sniff at Exeter (fallen out with coaches?) and will be 2nd choice behind Duvenage.

There is a fall from grace.

Talented, 14 caps at a young age and looked like a player who'd establish himself at the top level. Then lost in the maelstrom in Edinburgh. Now 28 and has spent the last few years on the fringes at various clubs.

I still feel that a decent run of games would get him noticed and back to the top level again.

Edit
No disrespect to Treviso.

weegie01 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:47 pm

robmatic wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:12 pm In non-international news, seems that SHC is on his way to Treviso this summer. Probably a decent enough move for him as he's not getting a sniff at Exeter (fallen out with coaches?) and will be 2nd choice behind Duvenage.

There is a fall from grace.

Talented, 14 caps at a young age and looked like a player who'd establish himself at the top level. Then lost in the maelstrom in Edinburgh. Now 28 and has spent the last few years on the fringes at various clubs.

I still feel that a decent run of games would get him noticed and back to the top level again.

Edit
No disrespect to Treviso.

I think that move to Scarlets was not a good decision, his agent has done well for him since then and he's been at a succession of good clubs, even if he hasn't played that much.

Treviso isn't a bad gig, they are respectably mid table these days and it's a nice place to live.

Biffer wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:03 am

I like neeps wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:50 am

robmatic wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:51 pm

Realistically a lot of the games could just go either way and there might not be a lot of difference points-wise between winning and coming 5th. However, even in the crushing disappointment scenario, I can still see this team scoring tries and playing some decent rugby.

Didn't play well in autumn and did quite well. So I'm hopeful if we raise the level for the six nations we'll be very good.

I think this year, next year and the year after are Finn and Hogg's peak years. If we're going to challenge it has to be with them as tip of the spear.

Yes, and then again no. BOD was the headline once in a generation talent that spearheaded Irelands journey to become a top level side winning championships and beating the All Blacks. Ireland won the six nations twice with him in the team, second time he was 35. It's not unreasonable to say they've been more successful since he retired. It's the drive these players give across the whole structure that's the real change and I think / hope we'll see that in Scotland too. Players who are more accustomed to competing with and winning against the big sides are more common now than they were when Hogg came into the side and the entire team was used to losing.

You are quite correct about this. BOD, generational talent though he clearly was, symbolised Ireland’s transition from mediocre to a major force in the game, and they have been better/more successful since he retired. I also agree that the expectations within our squad are radically different from what they were when Hogg broke into the team. You would hope that Finn and Hogg don’t retire without a title to show for their efforts though.

Yr Alban wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:29 pm

Biffer wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:03 am

I like neeps wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:50 am

Didn't play well in autumn and did quite well. So I'm hopeful if we raise the level for the six nations we'll be very good.

I think this year, next year and the year after are Finn and Hogg's peak years. If we're going to challenge it has to be with them as tip of the spear.

Yes, and then again no. BOD was the headline once in a generation talent that spearheaded Irelands journey to become a top level side winning championships and beating the All Blacks. Ireland won the six nations twice with him in the team, second time he was 35. It's not unreasonable to say they've been more successful since he retired. It's the drive these players give across the whole structure that's the real change and I think / hope we'll see that in Scotland too. Players who are more accustomed to competing with and winning against the big sides are more common now than they were when Hogg came into the side and the entire team was used to losing.

You are quite correct about this. BOD, generational talent though he clearly was, symbolised Ireland’s transition from mediocre to a major force in the game, and they have been better/more successful since he retired. I also agree that the expectations within our squad are radically different from what they were when Hogg broke into the team. You would hope that Finn and Hogg don’t retire without a title to show for their efforts though.

Absolutely. I’m hoping that will happen over the next couple of years, we were one kick away from winning last year.

Biffer wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:13 pm

I like neeps wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:02 pm

Biffer wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:03 am

Yes, and then again no. BOD was the headline once in a generation talent that spearheaded Irelands journey to become a top level side winning championships and beating the All Blacks. Ireland won the six nations twice with him in the team, second time he was 35. It's not unreasonable to say they've been more successful since he retired. It's the drive these players give across the whole structure that's the real change and I think / hope we'll see that in Scotland too. Players who are more accustomed to competing with and winning against the big sides are more common now than they were when Hogg came into the side and the entire team was used to losing.

Yes... But Ireland also have one of the best pathways in the world and their clubs are always competing in champions.cup knocks outs/Leinster have not not won the URC in a long time. And they were building this up when BOD was playing.

We just don't have the same level of set up to generate the success Ireland see.

Yeah, and that reflects what Dodson said in his interview last week - we need to see Glasgow and Edinburgh in the knockout stages of Europe most years, and a third pro team. If current development continues, the first bit of that might be a few years away, the second bit the latter part of this decade. In the early part of BOD's career, Leinster weren't fixtures in the knockouts, Ulster only started getting there regularly towards the end of his career.

I don't mean I expect Glasgow and Edinburgh to do what Leinster and Munster did, but I expect them to regularly in the knockout stages in the next few years. That's achievable, the academy is producing more pro quality players than ever, so I'm optimistic.

There's lessons to be learnt in all four Irish Provinces.

Munster; started out of the blocks well, because they had the best feeder clubs, when the game went Pro; & hence the strongest Provincial side; but they spent a ton of money on a Stadium; & neglected their Academy; & spaffed a lot of money on piss poor NIQ players, with the occasional gooden; like Williams, or Howlett.

Ulster; chopped and changed coaches, & always have a lot of saffers; & only recently got the Academy producing; & also poached some excellent, cast offs from Leinster. Built a good sized stadium; & reliably fill it with their preferred Friday night games.

Leinster; played in the shed in Donnybrook for years; & are now renting the slightly more upscale; & well situated asbestos shed in the RDS; but were always run by very, very savvy business men. Blessed by the links with the Schools system; & nurtured those, with camps, etc; right from the getgo. They had a bit of a mixed bag with coaches; but the thing with Leinster, has always been the trend was always, always going in the right direction; & the people in charge had a plan !

Connacht; the red headed step child; in a province where when the Pro era started; you could, & regularly did; get the entire Fan club in a bar in Eyre Square; but they fought to get development status; so they could take punts on overseas players, & guilt trip the IRFU into kicking some funding their direction to get more schools playing Rugby, & help grow the game, with more clubs around the Province. Like Ulster, we do like a good poach :) , & there's been more than one player, who revived their careers with time in Connacht.They succeed in growing the game, & you now see a lot of kids wearing Connacht jerseys in the street, & that twenty years ago would have been like seeing a white whale. Proof of the success, is that they now have the money, for redeveloping the Sportsgrounds, adding a new stand, to take it to 12k capacity, & with new training facilities.

You need a lot of things working together to get a successful Club/Province:

- A Stadium, & a support base, that can finance it, & the Team
- Smart people running the off field matters
- A good coach
- An Academy, & a network of schools, clubs, scouts, whatever, to find & nurture players.
- Oh, and some occasional successes along the way

Interesting focus on stadia there fishfoodie.

I think Edinburgh having their new stadium should be a bit of a game changer for all Scottish rugby. It was only 4 or 5 years ago that a few hundred were turning up at Myreside for a game so you would hope as we get back to normal the new place will be full every week and looking to expand. With that extra cash flow perhaps a 3rd team is a bit more feasible.

Slick wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:56 pm Interesting focus on stadia there fishfoodie.

I think Edinburgh having their new stadium should be a bit of a game changer for all Scottish rugby. It was only 4 or 5 years ago that a few hundred were turning up at Myreside for a game so you would hope as we get back to normal the new place will be full every week and looking to expand. With that extra cash flow perhaps a 3rd team is a bit more feasible.

I think it comes down to finances, & developing that match day experience. It's great that both Scottish sides can now start to develop that; & get fans to thinking about becoming a season ticket holder, because they know they'll have a good day out, & there'll be a bit of a buzz in the ground, & you'll see your mates in the pubs around the ground etc.

Connacht & Leinster are only tenants, but that's a secondary concern to being accessible; & being confident of getting the bums on seats to pay the rent, & make a few quid.

I agree with a what has been said about match day experiences, but the bottom line is that your team has to win. No one will go to the best match day experience time after time if their team is getting pumped.

A few years I ago I looked up the Irish provinces attendances and they grew in line with the success on the field. Connacht were a bit different, but they won hearts across the rugby world with the documentary film when Eric Elwood was at the helm, they too won success and a league title quite soon after that.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:19 pm I agree with a what has been said about match day experiences, but the bottom line is that your team has to win. No one will go to the best match day experience time after time if their team is getting pumped.

A few years I ago I looked up the Irish provinces attendances and they grew in line with the success on the field. Connacht were a bit different, but they won hearts across the rugby world with the documentary film when Eric Elwood was at the helm, they too won success and a league title quite soon after that.

We made that point to the Edinburgh chief exec a few years back. The best match day experience is a win.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:19 pm I agree with a what has been said about match day experiences, but the bottom line is that your team has to win. No one will go to the best match day experience time after time if their team is getting pumped.

A few years I ago I looked up the Irish provinces attendances and they grew in line with the success on the field. Connacht were a bit different, but they won hearts across the rugby world with the documentary film when Eric Elwood was at the helm, they too won success and a league title quite soon after that.

You need both really. Back in the Andy Robinson era, Edinburgh were playing decent rugby and winning but they were struggling to get crowds into the big bowl at Murrayfield. In those days, 3000 was a decent crowd but they are comfortably getting double that in Mini Murrayfield.

So the Women's squad was announced yesterday, and we're taking advantage of the new rule on eligibility to pick Caity Mattinson. She played for Englnad 7 times, last time in 2018 so is now eligible for Scotland as she was born in Inverness.

Thoughts?

Biffer wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:20 am So the Women's squad was announced yesterday, and we're taking advantage of the new rule on eligibility to pick Caity Mattinson. She played for Englnad 7 times, last time in 2018 so is now eligible for Scotland as she was born in Inverness.

Thoughts?

Scotland have to pick the best available players and it's within the rules so fair enough.

I disagree with the rules however. Caity Mattinson, Jack Dempsey made their choices to play for a different countries. They should stick to that choice. I am open to the tier2s getting tier1 players across because rugby is a small game and Pacific Islands give so much it'll help the overall profile. But English/Australians/south African caps playing for Scotland isn't for me.

I like neeps wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:33 am

Biffer wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:20 am So the Women's squad was announced yesterday, and we're taking advantage of the new rule on eligibility to pick Caity Mattinson. She played for Englnad 7 times, last time in 2018 so is now eligible for Scotland as she was born in Inverness.

Thoughts?

Scotland have to pick the best available players and it's within the rules so fair enough.

I disagree with the rules however. Caity Mattinson, Jack Dempsey made their choices to play for a different countries. They should stick to that choice. I am open to the tier2s getting tier1 players across because rugby is a small game and Pacific Islands give so much it'll help the overall profile. But English/Australians/south African caps playing for Scotland isn't for me.

Problem is that tier 1 - tier 2 is potentially a moving set of goalposts that are never truly defined. Unfortunately needs to be all or nowt.

That England team looks weak.

Adam Hastings dropped by Gloucester...

Alex Craig is back though.

I see the SRU are stretching the definition of 'lunchtime' as usual, and making us wait for the team announcement.

This from the BBC, though nearly true (it's not, because they were also doing that in 2020), is also hilarious for how much it could mislead the casual fan!

"England are attempting to regain the Calcutta Cup at Murrayfield for the first time since 1984."

clydecloggie wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:07 pm

Keep the ball in play, as few lineouts as possible IMO. No real surprises in there.

Biffer wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:09 pm

clydecloggie wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:07 pm

Keep the ball in play, as few lineouts as possible IMO. No real surprises in there.

Tuipolotou, White, Skinner and Bradbury on the bench perhaps slight surprises. Is Cummings injured? No Darge, Redpath, Vellacott.

I thought Bradbury would sneak in and was also expecting Cummings but nothing to moan about!

Ben White maybe

Biffer wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:09 pm

clydecloggie wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:07 pm

Keep the ball in play, as few lineouts as possible IMO. No real surprises in there.

I'm a little bit surprised to see Sutherland starting when he's played so little this season.

Not surprised to see Fagerson at 8, still think it should be Bradbury though.

I just have visions of WP coming on with 15 to go, and Scotland in a comfortable lead, and just taking the piss winning a succession of scrum penalties.

Back in reality, i genuinely expect that team to win and win well

Starting line up (and tight 5 on bench) picks itself assuming Cummings and Redpath are deemed not fit otherwise the complete omission of Redpath is bonkers.

Nel v Marler off the bench could be good.

Bradbury was a cert for the bench due to playing 6 and 8, unlucky not to start imo. Darge needs it to be a 6/2 split just now given neither he, Ritchie or Watson cover 8

Im not sure Vellacott can be trusted coming on at 17-15 up with 10 to go, but no idea what type of player White is though.

Kinghorn could be interesting.

Tuipulotu concerns me a lot. Hasn't shown anything more than being a flat track bully and wasn't that impressive v Tonga IMO. Would like to have seen Steyn in that shirt covering 13-back 3. Russell is a very decent 12 in emergencies.

Slick wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:25 pm I just have visions of WP coming on with 15 to go, and Scotland in a comfortable lead, and just taking the piss winning a succession of scrum penalties.

Back in reality, i genuinely expect that team to win and win well

He and Marler will do well to get much change from each other.

Big D wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:28 pm Starting line up (and tight 5 on bench) picks itself assuming Cummings and Redpath are deemed not fit otherwise the complete omission of Redpath is bonkers.

Nel v Marler off the bench could be good.

Bradbury was a cert for the bench due to playing 6 and 8, unlucky not to start imo. Darge needs it to be a 6/2 split just now given neither he, Ritchie or Watson cover 8

Im not sure Vellacott can be trusted coming on at 17-15 up with 10 to go, but no idea what type of player White is though.

Kinghorn could be interesting.

Tuipulotu concerns me a lot. Hasn't shown anything more than being a flat track bully and wasn't that impressive v Tonga IMO. Would like to have seen Steyn in that shirt covering 13-back 3. Russell is a very decent 12 in emergencies.

Agree about Tuipuloto. But then again, you look at those England centres and can imagine him smashing through

Big D wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:28 pm

Tuipulotu concerns me a lot. Hasn't shown anything more than being a flat track bully and wasn't that impressive v Tonga IMO. Would like to have seen Steyn in that shirt covering 13-back 3. Russell is a very decent 12 in emergencies.

Yeah, I'm not sure about Tuipolotu's defence but he is a strong carrier. I'd definitely not be keen on him starting, he just hasn't actually played that much top level rugby.

To be perfectly honest, if that team can’t win, and win fairly comfortably, against that England side then the game is up

Slick wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:52 pm To be perfectly honest, if that team can’t win, and win fairly comfortably, against that England side then the game is up

I'm getting the fear every time I read one of your posts

Jock42 wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:01 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:52 pm To be perfectly honest, if that team can’t win, and win fairly comfortably, against that England side then the game is up

I'm getting the fear every time I read one of your posts

I’m fully aware of where this is inevitably heading

Slick wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:52 pm To be perfectly honest, if that team can’t win, and win fairly comfortably, against that England side then the game is up

I think it is fairly close. Would be a surprise if either side won comfortably.

The bookies have England as 2 point favourites. Not sure I'd be comfortable betting on any of the handicaps this week (Ireland are -14 and France -35).

Would have had Cummings in ahead of Gilchrist, but then I’ve never really been a fan of Gilchrist.

Would have had Bradbury at 8. His form recently merits it.

Other than that, as expected in the 15. I expect Redpath would have started if he had been fit sooner.

There has to be a WTF moment in a Toony team, and this time it’s White on the bench. Why?

Yr Alban wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:39 pm Would have had Cummings in ahead of Gilchrist, but then I’ve never really been a fan of Gilchrist.

Would have had Bradbury at 8. His form recently merits it.

Other than that, as expected in the 15. I expect Redpath would have started if he had been fit sooner.

There has to be a WTF moment in a Toony team, and this time it’s White on the bench. Why?

England were always likely to have an inform and excellent kicker in Ford coming off the bench. With Kinghorn being very raw at 10 still we need a calming influence at 9. By all accounts White has a good pass, solid kicking game and can still challenge defenders around the ruck. The more i think of it, that sub 10 match up might decide the game if Finn can't go 80.

Vellacott has had questions around his game management all season and whilst he has played well I think those questions have some merit.

Tuipulotu over Steyn or even Hutch and Bennet is a bigger wtf moment imo. The only argument I have seen is he can run hard at URC level.

Big D wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:46 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:39 pm Would have had Cummings in ahead of Gilchrist, but then I’ve never really been a fan of Gilchrist.

Would have had Bradbury at 8. His form recently merits it.

Other than that, as expected in the 15. I expect Redpath would have started if he had been fit sooner.

There has to be a WTF moment in a Toony team, and this time it’s White on the bench. Why?

England were always likely to have an inform and excellent kicker in Ford coming off the bench. With Kinghorn being very raw at 10 still we need a calming influence at 9. By all accounts White has a good pass, solid kicking game and can still challenge defenders around the ruck. The more i think of it, that sub 10 match up might decide the game if Finn can't go 80.

Vellacott has had questions around his game management all season and whilst he has played well I think those questions have some merit.

Tuipulotu over Steyn or even Hutch and Bennet is a bigger wtf moment imo. The only argument I have seen is he can run hard at URC level.

The one major worry I have is our lack of a really consistent goal kicker. I know Finn can have very good days but if it’s going to be as close as everyone thinks it could be a real issue

Slick wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:22 pm

Big D wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:46 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:39 pm Would have had Cummings in ahead of Gilchrist, but then I’ve never really been a fan of Gilchrist.

Would have had Bradbury at 8. His form recently merits it.

Other than that, as expected in the 15. I expect Redpath would have started if he had been fit sooner.

There has to be a WTF moment in a Toony team, and this time it’s White on the bench. Why?

England were always likely to have an inform and excellent kicker in Ford coming off the bench. With Kinghorn being very raw at 10 still we need a calming influence at 9. By all accounts White has a good pass, solid kicking game and can still challenge defenders around the ruck. The more i think of it, that sub 10 match up might decide the game if Finn can't go 80.

Vellacott has had questions around his game management all season and whilst he has played well I think those questions have some merit.

Tuipulotu over Steyn or even Hutch and Bennet is a bigger wtf moment imo. The only argument I have seen is he can run hard at URC level.

The one major worry I have is our lack of a really consistent goal kicker. I know Finn can have very good days but if it’s going to be as close as everyone thinks it could be a real issue

Couldn't agree more about goal kicking.

Agree about Tuipolotu - and even Johnson - over Hutchinson who has been back to his best for saints and his best is a level above. However Tuipolotu as a crash ball 12 is interesting.

Vellacott is a running 9, we need a game control 9. No longer play running rugby. We play game control now.