NPR

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:50 am

But it's annoying that after the game on Saturday most commentary is on Smith, who didn't really have a good game. England had the majority of possession, they had all the territory, 64% of their rucks were under 3 seconds so they had quick ball all game. That is the ideal platform for a 10. Really you couldn't ask for much more.

What sources are you looking at? If it's ones with a primarily Engflish audience then I think that's pretty self-explanatory.

Also, we've seen the media do this before with Cipriani. They latch onto a player and want to make anything and everything about them because it's a lot easier than doing some actual writing about a broader range of personnel involved. Christ, the old guard journos would actually have to start paying attention at matches instead of talking amongst themselves and quaffing if they were actually trying to do their jobs properly.

As to the non-bolded, I can't bring myself to watch the game again, but it felt at the time like a lot of our possession was kicked away by men outside Smith. Squandering possession and position in those instances can't really be laid at his door.

At the same time, we've seen this happen before with Ford too. Basically single-handedly winning games at Prem level, but then playing completely differently once in the England set up because if you aren't prepared to do exactly what Eddie tells you, no matter how much it might run against your natural game, you'll get dropped.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:44 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:30 am Smith is the real deal, I've been watching him since he was 18, he is the reason I try to watch Quins. I can't really think of one single player who took to international rugby fully formed, Dan Carter started at inside centre before they trusted him to run the show.

Rugby Pass came up with best debuts and they include the like of Isreal Falou and Julian Savea, I don't remember their debuts but I'll take their word for it, let's just say it's unusual and more so at ten, oh hang on, Redpath was really good last year, but whatever, it's unusual.

Smith is one of the few I'd take from the England squad, not to replace Finn, but to take over eventually. Itoje would be the other, he'd walk straight in.

Put Smith in a team coached by Toonie and we'd see something

Itoje would definitely walk into our team, and most other teams at the moment, but, and I appreciate this is blasphemy, I do think he is also slightly overhyped by supporters and media. he is probably at the top of the 2nd level of 2nd rows in the modern (ish) era but I'm not sure people will still be talking about him like they do with Martin Johnson, Paul O'Connell, Victor Matfield, Bakkies Botha, John Eales, AWJ, Fabien Pelous, Olivier Roumat, Grant Gilchrist, Brodie Retallick and Sam Whitelock.

Admirable work

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:35 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:39 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:15 pm I had completely forgotten about that missed touch until it was brought up to be honest. And I suspect the point of it being raised was exactly because of someone else doing it on occasion

“Going for broke” at that point in the game was pretty dumb in itself really

Why's that? We'd failed to get much distance on kicks for touch prior to that leaving our maul with too much to do - seemed reasonable to try and get it to the 5m line.

Ford came on and nudged late penalties about 10m upfield from easier positions, which I suspect had a little more impact on our failure to win the game, albeit that the failure had a lot of reasons (many of them to do with Scotland, of course).

Because you were 10-14 up (I think) and had all the momentum, your maul and lineout had been doing fine all afternoon. There was absolutely no need to go for the big one. Get it into the 22 and keep the pressure on was the correct call.

Edit: I genuinely don't think there is any sourness or animosity towards Smith himself.

Smith did what we'd expect Finn to do. BTW he missed touch from a penalty too on Saturday in the first half IIRC but no one has mentioned it IIRC.

Smith did just fine in a scheme that isn't set up to show him at his best. He's a talented young players with plenty room to grow at the start of his international journey. Kicked his goals and took the try well. Give him an actual centre partnership rather than a 13 at 12 and an Elliott Daly at 13 and he'll be fine. Eddie is far too conservative and Gleeson a yes man to the head coach.

I suspect we'll see the best of him once Eddie and Co fuck off.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:30 am Smith is the real deal, I've been watching him since he was 18, he is the reason I try to watch Quins. I can't really think of one single player who took to international rugby fully formed, Dan Carter started at inside centre before they trusted him to run the show.

Rugby Pass came up with best debuts and they include the like of Isreal Falou and Julian Savea, I don't remember their debuts but I'll take their word for it, let's just say it's unusual and more so at ten, oh hang on, Redpath was really good last year, but whatever, it's unusual.

Smith is one of the few I'd take from the England squad, not to replace Finn, but to take over eventually. Itoje would be the other, he'd walk straight in.

Put Smith in a team coached by Toonie and we'd see something

Lions 25 with Finn at 12 :-) . Taylor's shite defence will get torn apart.

I think us amd England are closer than ever but I'd still take a few of theirs. Sinckler over Fagerson (who has started to stall a bit), LCD and George, Itoje as you say and I know Fagerson was good on Saturday but give me Simmonds and Dombrandnt in a Toony gameplan please.

robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:51 am

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:44 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:30 am Smith is the real deal, I've been watching him since he was 18, he is the reason I try to watch Quins. I can't really think of one single player who took to international rugby fully formed, Dan Carter started at inside centre before they trusted him to run the show.

Rugby Pass came up with best debuts and they include the like of Isreal Falou and Julian Savea, I don't remember their debuts but I'll take their word for it, let's just say it's unusual and more so at ten, oh hang on, Redpath was really good last year, but whatever, it's unusual.

Smith is one of the few I'd take from the England squad, not to replace Finn, but to take over eventually. Itoje would be the other, he'd walk straight in.

Put Smith in a team coached by Toonie and we'd see something

Itoje would definitely walk into our team, and most other teams at the moment, but, and I appreciate this is blasphemy, I do think he is also slightly overhyped by supporters and media. he is probably at the top of the 2nd level of 2nd rows in the modern (ish) era but I'm not sure people will still be talking about him like they do with Martin Johnson, Paul O'Connell, Victor Matfield, Bakkies Botha, John Eales, AWJ, Fabien Pelous, Olivier Roumat, Grant Gilchrist, Brodie Retallick and Sam Whitelock.

Admirable work

On that note. Fair play to GG he looked on a downward trend but has been very good over the last 12 months for Scotland.

Never mind Watson. Look at that defensive line! Beautiful.

Nice bit of sealing off too and Fagerson probably in from the side.

I am easily amused.

weegie01 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:09 pm I am easily amused.

Getting a bit Welsh there lads.

I think Marcus Smith is a great player, and could be tremendously exciting for England in the future, but I don't think he was astonishing on Saturday (partly Eddie Jones's fault, I'm sure) and I don't think he is any better than Finn Russell was at a similar age. The difference is that Finn was played down by the media at first (in the form of an obsession with his flakiness, which persists even now, and probably cost him a starting Lions jersey), whereas Smith is being talked up. One missed touch aside, Finn delivered an excellent and polished performance against England, but all the talk has still been about Smith.

EDIT: I have just noticed that I posted almost exactly the same on another thread. I must be dementing.

Hope this ok apologies if not

My club, Cardiff Harlequins have got some tickets for this Saturdays game. They are Cat C and priced at £100 which is the face value. So if anyone was thinking of coming down you can now have a ticket to the game. See Scotland win in Cardiff for the first time in 20 years

DM me if interested

Poshprop wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:42 pm Hope this ok apologies if not

My club, Cardiff Harlequins have got some tickets for this Saturdays game. They are Cat C and priced at £100 which is the face value. So if anyone was thinking of coming down you can now have a ticket to the game. See Scotland win in Cardiff for the first time in 20 years

DM me if interested

Oh fuck, you've done it now

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:29 pm Also, some good analysis going about on Scotland’s first try. It was very pre-planned, with Turner dropping into the backfield specifically to take a quick throw:

Pity it was illegal.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:55 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:29 pm Also, some good analysis going about on Scotland’s first try. It was very pre-planned, with Turner dropping into the backfield specifically to take a quick throw:

Pity it was illegal.

Losers not welcome on this thread I’m afraid

20-17

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:57 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:55 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:29 pm Also, some good analysis going about on Scotland’s first try. It was very pre-planned, with Turner dropping into the backfield specifically to take a quick throw:

Pity it was illegal.

Losers not welcome on this thread I’m afraid

20-17

Full-on Welsh

Toga's bitterness extending into Monday, I see.

Anyway, on to next week: Cherry called up. Ritchie out as expected, and Bayliss still out returning from concussion.

inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:00 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:57 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:55 pm


Pity it was illegal.

Losers not welcome on this thread I’m afraid

20-17

Full-on Welsh

Harsh. We have been perfectly welcoming to everyone but Toga is just a prick

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:01 pm Toga's bitterness extending into Monday, I see.

Anyway, on to next week: Cherry called up. Ritchie out as expected, and Bayliss still out returning from concussion.

Do we know what it is with Richie?

They discussed the lineout on rugby special - it was legal as the lineout had formed

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:02 pm

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:01 pm Toga's bitterness extending into Monday, I see.

Anyway, on to next week: Cherry called up. Ritchie out as expected, and Bayliss still out returning from concussion.

Do we know what it is with Richie?

Gregor said he did the splits involuntarily, and he had ice on his thigh at the end, so I’m guessing it’s an adductor strain or tear.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:55 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:29 pm Also, some good analysis going about on Scotland’s first try. It was very pre-planned, with Turner dropping into the backfield specifically to take a quick throw:

Pity it was illegal.

Two men from either side, line out was formed.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:41 pm I think Marcus Smith is a great player, and could be tremendously exciting for England in the future, but I don't think he was astonishing on Saturday (partly Eddie Jones's fault, I'm sure) and I don't think he is any better than Finn Russell was at a similar age. The difference is that Finn was played down by the media at first (in the form of an obsession with his flakiness, which persists even now, and probably cost him a starting Lions jersey), whereas Smith is being talked up. One missed touch aside, Finn delivered an excellent and polished performance against England, but all the talk has still been about Smith.

EDIT: I have just noticed that I posted almost exactly the same on another thread. I must be dementing.

It's true to say that Russell made a few mistakes in a number of games, especially early in his career, that were picked up on - there are numerous relatively benign reasons for this, forcing it too much in certain games, sometimes just being saddled with substandard players in/outside him, on other occasions being behind a retreating pack, etc etc. Smith hasn't perhaps had to face some of this in the same way.

This is amplified by picking up on errors rather than capabilities, doesn't matter if Russell makes half a dozen great touch-finders it'll be the one he overreaches on that'll be spoken about. It's life.

Also expect Smith to get a kicking in the press once he makes a few high-profile rickets.

inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:10 pm

weegie01 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:09 pm I am easily amused.

Getting a bit Welsh there lads.

Yeah, rugbypass seem to he enjoying this more than some of us.

Yeah, rugbypass seem to he enjoying this more than some of us.

I was going to say earlier that the reaction has actually been pretty muted, personally as well as amongst mates and on line. I guess it's a measure of where we are to an extent.

Ashman got subbed early for Sale on the weekend so Cherry presumably in as cover for him.

Another 6 needed. Logic would suggest Bradbury to start with Watson and Fagerson (which way round for 6/8 I couldn't tell - Fagerson was MotM at 8 but plays most of his club rugby at 6; either way is fine I guess). With Skinner covering 4/5/6 from the bench it would free up the 20 shirt for Rory Darge?

The Welsh defence didn't look particularly strong as Ireland started to chuck it around so perhaps a bit more of a ball player at 12 (Redpath?) would help. Not sure if Pivac is in the Gatland/Jones mould and would like to double down on the Adams at 13 experiment - if he does, target that channel all day long. Even if he doesn't, the Welsh centre pairing will be somewhat below its theoretical best so there should be things on offer in the midfield. We're using IrnDu as a 3rd centre already, let's not stop doing that - he may have a big role to play coming in from his wing on Saturday.

With all the caveats of winning in Cardiff being nigh on impossible historically for Scotland, surely this Scotland team is a cut above the current Welsh and should win this one.

Big D wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:11 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:55 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:29 pm Also, some good analysis going about on Scotland’s first try. It was very pre-planned, with Turner dropping into the backfield specifically to take a quick throw:

Pity it was illegal.

Two men from either side, line out was formed.

That's not really how it works. If there's two men from either side, you can't take it quickly. So it has to be a "normal" lineout. At a normal lineout, people have to be either in or out - they can't be halfway when the ball's thrown in. My entirely emotions-based feeling was there were players having to go in / retreating from the lineout who hadn't gone the full distance when the ball was thrown in, but happy to be proven wrong by a decent replay. Bit of a mess. Anyway, England were caught napping and it was clever by Scotland; whinging about it being illegal when there's really no clear proof of that at all is very odd.

We should, but I'm much less confident than about the England game.

Oh and because I thought it shouldn't stink up the Scottish thread, on the comments re: England's game plan and Smith kicking a lot, I did a post looking at all the stats from the weekend's matches: http://notplanetrugby.com/viewtopic.php ... 0c#p177167

TLDR all the England backs kicked regularly and Smith wasn't kicking for distance (same as Sexton); Hogg kicked a lot, as did Russell, and Price mostly played the ball rather than kicking it, which was a trend for scrum halves not called Ben Youngs

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:37 pm We should, but I'm much less confident than about the England game.

I could see this going one of two ways: either we produce a top-drawer performance and the result is never in doubt, or it will turn into a gritty war of attrition and Wales will edge it by less than a score. I hope for the first, and on paper it could (perhaps even should) happen, but realistically Wales will be desperate to make amends for last week and will probably play far better, with a partisan home crowd behind them.

We’ve all seen too many false dawns.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:38 pm Oh and because I thought it shouldn't stink up the Scottish thread, on the comments re: England's game plan and Smith kicking a lot, I did a post looking at all the stats from the weekend's matches: http://notplanetrugby.com/viewtopic.php ... 0c#p177167

TLDR all the England backs kicked regularly and Smith wasn't kicking for distance (same as Sexton); Hogg kicked a lot, as did Russell, and Price mostly played the ball rather than kicking it, which was a trend for scrum halves not called Ben Youngs

You are extremely welcome here, and add much value rather than any stink.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:02 pm

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:01 pm Toga's bitterness extending into Monday, I see.

Anyway, on to next week: Cherry called up. Ritchie out as expected, and Bayliss still out returning from concussion.

Do we know what it is with Richie?

Hamstring/groin unfortunately.

Cherry being with Scotland means Edinburgh will be 21 players down for our trip to Leinster on Friday, unless some of the injuries we had prior to the Ospreys game have cleared up, but that seems unlikely as they were long term and even necessitated temporary signings

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:52 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:02 pm

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:01 pm Toga's bitterness extending into Monday, I see.

Anyway, on to next week: Cherry called up. Ritchie out as expected, and Bayliss still out returning from concussion.

Do we know what it is with Richie?

Hamstring/groin unfortunately.

Cheers, any indication on how long yet? We are going to miss him

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:36 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:11 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:55 pm


Pity it was illegal.

Two men from either side, line out was formed.

That's not really how it works. If there's two men from either side, you can't take it quickly. So it has to be a "normal" lineout. At a normal lineout, people have to be either in or out - they can't be halfway when the ball's thrown in. My entirely emotions-based feeling was there were players having to go in / retreating from the lineout who hadn't gone the full distance when the ball was thrown in, but happy to be proven wrong by a decent replay. Bit of a mess. Anyway, England were caught napping and it was clever by Scotland; whinging about it being illegal when there's really no clear proof of that at all is very odd.

It is a fair point and I wondered that too. But I thought when the couple of straglers were retreating 10 from open play. Doesn't matter either way I guess.

Scotland look to do this once every couple of games, it must be a set move because it is always to Ritchie. This is the first time for a while it has worked so well. I suspect we get into the refs ear before the game to make it clear it is a possibility.

Always fun debating these wee things. Especially until Eddie leaves when I fear the worm will turn.

Seems to have been a bit of a barney in here over the weekend but I always welcome a blether :-)

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:04 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:52 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:02 pm

Do we know what it is with Richie?

Hamstring/groin unfortunately.

Cheers, any indication on how long yet? We are going to miss him

We'll miss him but allows us to see how Bradbury or even Christie go on the blind side and Darge should get a go on the bench now.

Big D wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:02 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:04 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:52 pm

Hamstring/groin unfortunately.

Cheers, any indication on how long yet? We are going to miss him

We'll miss him but allows us to see how Bradbury or even Christie go on the blind side and Darge should get a go on the bench now.

We’ll miss him, certainly, but for the first time in, well, possibly ever, we have genuine alternative options to choose from and the drop-off in quality will be a small one. Bayliss is unavailable and would perhaps be the most direct swap, but we still have Bradbury, Christie and Haining as options, and Darge for the bench. Not to mention Crosbie and Richardson who aren’t even in the squad right now.

I take it there's been no word on Richies injury yet?

Jock42 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:59 pm I take it there's been no word on Richies injury yet?

Hammy and groin but no details on what the damage is.

Scotland are apparently rumoured to be playing Chile during their summer tour before the Chile WC qualifiers.

Big D wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:36 pm

Jock42 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:59 pm I take it there's been no word on Richies injury yet?

Hammy and groin but no details on what the damage is.

Cheers.

Big D wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:36 pm Scotland are apparently rumoured to be playing Chile during their summer tour before the Chile WC qualifiers.

And presumably Argentina after that?

That’d be a hell of a few weeks holiday