The Scottish Politics Thread

[tc27]

I did read it it made my head melt

Me too but I think we could take this thread down a rabbit hole very easily. Loads of articles online about it - its at the very least a controversial topic among economists.


Sorry if sounded flippant

[Slick]

Rumours of a new lockdown starting on Friday for 2 weeks

[Northern Lights]

Rumours of a new lockdown starting on Friday for 2 weeks

Announcement been pushed back 24 hours. I dont think there is the same support for another lockdown, people are seriously fed up, the reason for us coming out of the last lockdown later than everyone else was the elimination strategy and we would be in a better place than elsewhere by sucking it up then, that of course has proven to be shite so the faith in their handling of this has been seriously rocked.

How they spin it that Shetlanders need to lockdown as well is beyond me.

[Slick]

Rumours of a new lockdown starting on Friday for 2 weeks

Announcement been pushed back 24 hours. I dont think there is the same support for another lockdown, people are seriously fed up, the reason for us coming out of the last lockdown later than everyone else was the elimination strategy and we would be in a better place than elsewhere by sucking it up then, that of course has proven to be shite so the faith in their handling of this has been seriously rocked.

How they spin it that Shetlanders need to lockdown as well is beyond me.

Have to agree, having looked across social media etc, that the support for this doesn't seem to be anywhere near where it was last time. Will be interesting to see how the government of public opinion deals with this...

EDIT: to be fair, if they are going to do it then I guess it does make sense to do it during half term. From a completely selfish point of view we have a week booked on Mull in 3 weeks so fucking do it now!

[Tichtheid]

EDIT: to be fair, if they are going to do it then I guess it does make sense to do it during half term. From a completely selfish point of view we have a week booked on Mull in 3 weeks so fucking do it now!

I once had a really good night in the Mishnish in Tobermory.

It was followed by the worst day of my life - sailing over to Barra with a monumental hangover, feeding the fishes over the side.

[tc27]

We have come a long way from 'eliminated by the end of the summer' and closing the border with England.

[Northern Lights]

Rumours of a new lockdown starting on Friday for 2 weeks

Announcement been pushed back 24 hours. I dont think there is the same support for another lockdown, people are seriously fed up, the reason for us coming out of the last lockdown later than everyone else was the elimination strategy and we would be in a better place than elsewhere by sucking it up then, that of course has proven to be shite so the faith in their handling of this has been seriously rocked.

How they spin it that Shetlanders need to lockdown as well is beyond me.

Have to agree, having looked across social media etc, that the support for this doesn't seem to be anywhere near where it was last time. Will be interesting to see how the government of public opinion deals with this...

EDIT: to be fair, if they are going to do it then I guess it does make sense to do it during half term. From a completely selfish point of view we have a week booked on Mull in 3 weeks so fucking do it now!

Yeah that was their thinking, half term lock the country down for 2 weeks as it wont affect the kids at school etc, well i reckon that is what they were thinking. Problems with that is i believe the dates for the tattie holidays differ across Scotland, people have had enough as i previously mentioned which i think is as much to do with no end in sight just more trudgery as we head into the winter months, which are fairly shite with all the usual festivities now cancelled, as in no ceilidhs, christmas markets, santas grottos, hogemany parties, Burns nights etc etc that make the coming months bareable.

[Slick]

So no travel bans, no staying in our houses and no schools shutting outside the holidays.

I guess that means pubs and restaurants shutting down

[Northern Lights]

So no travel bans, no staying in our houses and no schools shutting outside the holidays.

I guess that means pubs and restaurants shutting down

Also talking of no mixing with other households in any setting!

So that buggers the kids for the holidays and any sport type things we enjoy such - (fuck that!)

[Northern Lights]

As an aside what a shambles Boris is, I’ve just seen his conference speech on the news, Christ almighty the man is an embarrassment.

[Dogbert]

Scottish Tories to support free university tuition

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-54441391

So the English Taxpayer is supposed to pick up the bill for Free University Education for Scottish Students, what a way to support the Union

[tc27]

Scottish Tories to support free university tuition

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-54441391

So the English Taxpayer is supposed to pick up the bill for Free University Education for Scottish Students, what a way to support the Union

Its funded out of the devolved admins budget...mainly by cutting FE funding and rationing places.

[Dogbert]

Which is surely at least partly funded by the Barnett Formula - so the point still stands

Ross has also confirmed that "Our manifesto will support free tuition for university students, while calling for college places to be viewed as equally valuable." so one assumes he will be increasing FE places - how much is that going to cost ?

Ross also voted against scrapping university tuition fees; against restoring Education Maintenance Allowance, maintenance grants and nurses’ bursaries;at Westminster - but happy for Free University Education in Scotland

[Tichtheid]

Which is surely at least partly funded by the Barnett Formula - so the point still stands

Ross has also confirmed that "Our manifesto will support free tuition for university students, while calling for college places to be viewed as equally valuable." so one assumes he will be increasing FE places - how much is that going to cost ?

Ross also voted against scrapping university tuition fees; against restoring Education Maintenance Allowance, maintenance grants and nurses’ bursaries;at Westminster - but happy for Free University Education in Scotland

I'd say your aim is about 180 degrees off, any argument should be about how to fund tuition for students in England (and Wales and NornIrn) and not have 22 year olds graduating with a fifty thousand pound debt, one which interest accrues despite initial promises that it wouldn't.

[Dogbert]

The point is not about how we fund Further / Tertiary education - but the rank hypocrisy of Scottish Unionists

TC talks of cuts in FE in Scotland , but doesn't mention that in England the Total funding for adult education and apprenticeships has fallen by more than the number of adult learners or apprentices – by 45% since 2009–10.

The number of adult learners in further education or apprenticeships has fallen by 29% since 2010–11, from 3.2 million to 2.2 million.

And rationing of University places is not just a Scottish issue

It seems that Scottish Conservative and Unionist U-turn on Funding for Scottish University Students flies in the face of Conservative policy for the Students in England

No wonder people in England would feel pissed off about this seems like Unionism in Scotland is only skin (pocket ) deep

[Tichtheid]

The point is not about how we fund Further / Tertiary education - but the rank hypocrisy of Scottish Unionists

TC talks of cuts in FE in Scotland , but doesn't mention that in England the Total funding for adult education and apprenticeships has fallen by more than the number of adult learners or apprentices – by 45% since 2009–10.

The number of adult learners in further education or apprenticeships has fallen by 29% since 2010–11, from 3.2 million to 2.2 million.

And rationing of University places is not just a Scottish issue

It seems that Scottish Conservative and Unionist U-turn on Funding for Scottish University Students flies in the face of Conservative policy for the Students in England

No wonder people in England would feel pissed off about this seems like Unionism in Scotland is only skin (pocket ) deep

Fair dos.

I misunderstood your point.

[Paddington Bear]

The point is not about how we fund Further / Tertiary education - but the rank hypocrisy of Scottish Unionists

TC talks of cuts in FE in Scotland , but doesn't mention that in England the Total funding for adult education and apprenticeships has fallen by more than the number of adult learners or apprentices – by 45% since 2009–10.

The number of adult learners in further education or apprenticeships has fallen by 29% since 2010–11, from 3.2 million to 2.2 million.

And rationing of University places is not just a Scottish issue

It seems that Scottish Conservative and Unionist U-turn on Funding for Scottish University Students flies in the face of Conservative policy for the Students in England

No wonder people in England would feel pissed off about this seems like Unionism in Scotland is only skin (pocket ) deep

There's two points here - 1) The Scottish Tories are perfectly entitled to take different policy stances to the national party and 2) your last point is increasingly correct and strikes me as the greatest threat to the Union in the long term, more so than brexit or anything else. England and Scotland have less and less in common beyond a currency, and I can't see that as a sustainable union longer term.

[Slick]

I feel bad stealing LN's thunder, but here is Massie yesterday on this:

When he was parachuted in to lead the Scottish Tories, Douglas Ross promised to be his own man but I am not sure even his admirers in the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party anticipated that he would demonstrate his independence of mind by launching an astonishing, full-throttle, full-frontal, attack on Boris Johnson.

But that was the unavoidable meaning of Mr Ross’s speech to the Tory conference last weekend. He lambasted those “conservatives in England” who have “forgotten that Unionism is in our party’s DNA” and complained — accurately — that “the case for separation is now being made more effectively in London than it ever could [be made] in Scotland”. Too many of the Union’s notional defenders are sunk in “defeatism” and, worse than mere defeatism, “disinterest”. Worse still, “many, including some who govern our country, want to see a UK government focused on England”.

Well, this was bracing stuff, and quite unlike anything we have seen from a Scottish Tory leader before. Mr Ross scolded his colleagues and then suggested that they didn’t even understand the country they govern. Far too many of them “too often see Britishness and Englishness as one and the same” and “they do not value the importance of the Union to their own British identity”.

“Whose side are you on?” Mr Ross asked and the implied answer was an obvious one: Nicola Sturgeon’s. The Union is threatened by English ignorance and English indifference just as much as it is imperilled by a growing sense of Scottish exceptionalism. Mr Ross made, implicitly, a bold and imaginative case for Scotland as the UK’s indispensable nation. As he put it, “The United Kingdom forms a much greater whole than just England alone” and if you relegate unionism to a footnote, “you send a signal to the Scottish people that the continuation of our country is unimportant”. No Scotland; no United Kingdom. Douglas Ross is right about this.

So this was a very unionist speech but one no English politician could have given for it was rooted in a distinctly Scottish appraisal of British history. But it was also an unusual speech for a Scottish politician to make, for in place of the traditional, bland, even banal, variety of Scottish unionism it had more than a hint of the Ulster variant about it.

Thus Mr Ross preached defiance of the “Here we stand, for we can do no other” variety but his address was also laced with foreboding. Ulster Unionism has always had a paranoid strain, fearing that one day it will be sold out by London. Considered on its own terms, this has usually been a rational fear for there really are plenty of people in Whitehall who would cheerfully be shot of Northern Ireland. It is a strange, small, place, far away and far too much trouble. No wonder Ulster often says No but always says Beware.

Something of that sensibility now infects Scottish unionism. A laager mentality is developing. The SNP are merely the Scottish Tories’ opponents, the real enemies are those who notionally support the Union but do more to undermine it than secure it. Amid Mr Ross’s belligerence, though, you could detect an element of mournful surprise; the disappointment felt by Scottish unionists left high and dry, abandoned by people they took to be their co-religionists.

Nationalist moments tend to coincide with, and be encouraged by, periods of profound British malaise. The 1970s were thus ripe for nationalist insurrection (lubricated by oil, of course), the recession of the early 1990s helped the SNP win 50 per cent more votes in 1992 than they had in 1987, and the party’s ascension to majority status at Holyrood was in part fuelled by the fallout from the 2008 financial crisis. British difficulties are Scottish opportunities and the SNP thrives on chaotic governance in London.

This present government, then, with its Matt Hancocks and Priti Patels and its Jacob Rees-Moggs and Dominic Raabs is explicable only if you think of it as having been created by its enemies. For if you desired a government that would raise Scottish hackles and seem utterly alien north of the border, you would build a government such as this. And then you would ask Boris Johnson to lead it.

If there’s good news for unionism it is that despite Brexit and Covid and Boris and everything else, support for independence is not higher than it is. Unionism still has something better than a puncher’s chance even if, for all the obvious reasons, it cannot risk stepping into the ring. The cost of defeat is greater for unionism than the prize of victory.

It follows that, rather than soapy — and soppy — words about the glories of the Union, what the United Kingdom really needs is a period of happy and competent governance. This would be useful in any case, but it is also liable to be the glue required to keep the UK together and in business.

Alas, that kind of government is not available just now and that, more than anything else, explains this nationalist moment. When Britain is failing, it is little wonder that many Scots view the struggles of independence with greater equanimity than they would in times of cheerful prosperity. It might be a difficult and expensive business, but we wouldn’t have to be very good to be a little bit better than the United Kingdom we’d be leaving.

The Union’s survival therefore requires a successful UK government and a growing economy. Flag-waving is not the answer. Nor is there any future in retreating into the past. Dreams that devolution can — let alone should — be rolled back, or independence somehow made an illegal proposition, are the stuff of fevers, not rational thinking. It is telling these now seem increasingly popular on the wilder fringes of unionism. Even if it were all a good idea it’s not happening for the simple, important, reason the people will not wear it. If you’re making these arguments you’re in the position of Canute’s courtiers who thought the monarch really could command the tides.

It seems as though Douglas Ross has a different role in mind. He and his party are to be the keepers of the watch, the guardians of the wall happy to make every ditch a last one. If that means they are misunderstood and under-appreciated by their notional colleagues in London then so be it. For they, and they alone if necessary, will keep the old-time religion alive.

I must admit, I'm increasingly moving to the "fuck it" side of things.

[MSG#]

So is there going to be a proper investigation into how Krankie's husband conspired to get Salmond arrested and charged? Sounds as though the police might be interested in that one.

[Northern Lights]

I feel bad stealing LN's thunder, but here is Massie yesterday on this:

When he was parachuted in to lead the Scottish Tories, Douglas Ross promised to be his own man but I am not sure even his admirers in the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party anticipated that he would demonstrate his independence of mind by launching an astonishing, full-throttle, full-frontal, attack on Boris Johnson.

But that was the unavoidable meaning of Mr Ross’s speech to the Tory conference last weekend. He lambasted those “conservatives in England” who have “forgotten that Unionism is in our party’s DNA” and complained — accurately — that “the case for separation is now being made more effectively in London than it ever could [be made] in Scotland”. Too many of the Union’s notional defenders are sunk in “defeatism” and, worse than mere defeatism, “disinterest”. Worse still, “many, including some who govern our country, want to see a UK government focused on England”.

Well, this was bracing stuff, and quite unlike anything we have seen from a Scottish Tory leader before. Mr Ross scolded his colleagues and then suggested that they didn’t even understand the country they govern. Far too many of them “too often see Britishness and Englishness as one and the same” and “they do not value the importance of the Union to their own British identity”.

“Whose side are you on?” Mr Ross asked and the implied answer was an obvious one: Nicola Sturgeon’s. The Union is threatened by English ignorance and English indifference just as much as it is imperilled by a growing sense of Scottish exceptionalism. Mr Ross made, implicitly, a bold and imaginative case for Scotland as the UK’s indispensable nation. As he put it, “The United Kingdom forms a much greater whole than just England alone” and if you relegate unionism to a footnote, “you send a signal to the Scottish people that the continuation of our country is unimportant”. No Scotland; no United Kingdom. Douglas Ross is right about this.

So this was a very unionist speech but one no English politician could have given for it was rooted in a distinctly Scottish appraisal of British history. But it was also an unusual speech for a Scottish politician to make, for in place of the traditional, bland, even banal, variety of Scottish unionism it had more than a hint of the Ulster variant about it.

Thus Mr Ross preached defiance of the “Here we stand, for we can do no other” variety but his address was also laced with foreboding. Ulster Unionism has always had a paranoid strain, fearing that one day it will be sold out by London. Considered on its own terms, this has usually been a rational fear for there really are plenty of people in Whitehall who would cheerfully be shot of Northern Ireland. It is a strange, small, place, far away and far too much trouble. No wonder Ulster often says No but always says Beware.

Something of that sensibility now infects Scottish unionism. A laager mentality is developing. The SNP are merely the Scottish Tories’ opponents, the real enemies are those who notionally support the Union but do more to undermine it than secure it. Amid Mr Ross’s belligerence, though, you could detect an element of mournful surprise; the disappointment felt by Scottish unionists left high and dry, abandoned by people they took to be their co-religionists.

Nationalist moments tend to coincide with, and be encouraged by, periods of profound British malaise. The 1970s were thus ripe for nationalist insurrection (lubricated by oil, of course), the recession of the early 1990s helped the SNP win 50 per cent more votes in 1992 than they had in 1987, and the party’s ascension to majority status at Holyrood was in part fuelled by the fallout from the 2008 financial crisis. British difficulties are Scottish opportunities and the SNP thrives on chaotic governance in London.

This present government, then, with its Matt Hancocks and Priti Patels and its Jacob Rees-Moggs and Dominic Raabs is explicable only if you think of it as having been created by its enemies. For if you desired a government that would raise Scottish hackles and seem utterly alien north of the border, you would build a government such as this. And then you would ask Boris Johnson to lead it.

If there’s good news for unionism it is that despite Brexit and Covid and Boris and everything else, support for independence is not higher than it is. Unionism still has something better than a puncher’s chance even if, for all the obvious reasons, it cannot risk stepping into the ring. The cost of defeat is greater for unionism than the prize of victory.

It follows that, rather than soapy — and soppy — words about the glories of the Union, what the United Kingdom really needs is a period of happy and competent governance. This would be useful in any case, but it is also liable to be the glue required to keep the UK together and in business.

Alas, that kind of government is not available just now and that, more than anything else, explains this nationalist moment. When Britain is failing, it is little wonder that many Scots view the struggles of independence with greater equanimity than they would in times of cheerful prosperity. It might be a difficult and expensive business, but we wouldn’t have to be very good to be a little bit better than the United Kingdom we’d be leaving.

The Union’s survival therefore requires a successful UK government and a growing economy. Flag-waving is not the answer. Nor is there any future in retreating into the past. Dreams that devolution can — let alone should — be rolled back, or independence somehow made an illegal proposition, are the stuff of fevers, not rational thinking. It is telling these now seem increasingly popular on the wilder fringes of unionism. Even if it were all a good idea it’s not happening for the simple, important, reason the people will not wear it. If you’re making these arguments you’re in the position of Canute’s courtiers who thought the monarch really could command the tides.

It seems as though Douglas Ross has a different role in mind. He and his party are to be the keepers of the watch, the guardians of the wall happy to make every ditch a last one. If that means they are misunderstood and under-appreciated by their notional colleagues in London then so be it. For they, and they alone if necessary, will keep the old-time religion alive.

I must admit, I'm increasingly moving to the "fuck it" side of things.

I have stopped posting the Massie and other commentators, mostly because i can't be arsed, minds wont be changed and the overwhelming adverse reaction which again i cant be arsed with.

Saw this article yesterday and i have to say i agree with Massie and a lot of what Douglas Ross says.

Boris and his cabinet of clowns are a problem, that also allows Sturgeon and hers to get away with poor delivery in Scotland and not be held to account. When Indy not so long ago was quite a low priority for most in Scotland it now dominates everything to the point where even when the SNP are shit at delivery, full of scandel, people will still vote for them on mass, much like they do with other parties tbf but the other parties arent committed to massive constitutional change, other than if you were a UKIP voter, so you arent voting for a different flavour of ice cream because the current one tastes like shit. You are saying i never want ice cream ever again.

Aye shite analogy but there we go.

[Northern Lights]

The point is not about how we fund Further / Tertiary education - but the rank hypocrisy of Scottish Unionists

TC talks of cuts in FE in Scotland , but doesn't mention that in England the Total funding for adult education and apprenticeships has fallen by more than the number of adult learners or apprentices – by 45% since 2009–10.

The number of adult learners in further education or apprenticeships has fallen by 29% since 2010–11, from 3.2 million to 2.2 million.

And rationing of University places is not just a Scottish issue

It seems that Scottish Conservative and Unionist U-turn on Funding for Scottish University Students flies in the face of Conservative policy for the Students in England

No wonder people in England would feel pissed off about this seems like Unionism in Scotland is only skin (pocket ) deep

There's two points here - 1) The Scottish Tories are perfectly entitled to take different policy stances to the national party and 2) your last point is increasingly correct and strikes me as the greatest threat to the Union in the long term, more so than brexit or anything else. England and Scotland have less and less in common beyond a currency, and I can't see that as a sustainable union longer term.

Personally think that is nonsense, others will have a different view but i am very much of the opinion that we arent actually that different at all. The Brexit vote was clearly a big difference of opinion but then huge swathes of England were Remainers too and i dont think any perceived difference in Brexit voting patterns spells a massive difference in our countires.

On the money side of things, it is well established during the golden oil years we were contributors to the pot, yay for us, now that oil is on the way out we are recipients if we break it down geographically. Ebbs and flows of a nations and finances, this for me is the argument for the Union in monetary terms, you benefit when times are rough but pay in when times are good. Scotland needs a fundamental kick up the arse to get our economy firing though as our productivity and economic growth has been lagging RoUK for a while now but as we are overly focused on constitutional matters that is not surprising.

[Slick]

We really need another "Scottish" party.

I'm not entirely sure what that would look like. I like the idea of a party that isn't 100% against independence but has some tough, but realistic, metrics that need to be achieved before it is considered.

[Biffer]

What Douglas Ross and Massie are describing is basically what many of us on the pro independence side of the debate have seen growing for two or three decades. Boris and his clown show are not a one off that have come from nowhere in their attitude to Scotland. They're the culmination of a growing attitude, not just to Scotland, but to the rest of the country from the south east of England. It won't go away, but it might get a curtain drawn across or some make up put on so it doesn't look so bad.

The first few paragraphs of what's said would get a 'yeah, we've been telling you that for years' response from most reasonable independence supporters (but not the rabid froth at the mouth ones)

[Biffer]

The point is not about how we fund Further / Tertiary education - but the rank hypocrisy of Scottish Unionists

TC talks of cuts in FE in Scotland , but doesn't mention that in England the Total funding for adult education and apprenticeships has fallen by more than the number of adult learners or apprentices – by 45% since 2009–10.

The number of adult learners in further education or apprenticeships has fallen by 29% since 2010–11, from 3.2 million to 2.2 million.

And rationing of University places is not just a Scottish issue

It seems that Scottish Conservative and Unionist U-turn on Funding for Scottish University Students flies in the face of Conservative policy for the Students in England

No wonder people in England would feel pissed off about this seems like Unionism in Scotland is only skin (pocket ) deep

There's two points here - 1) The Scottish Tories are perfectly entitled to take different policy stances to the national party and 2) your last point is increasingly correct and strikes me as the greatest threat to the Union in the long term, more so than brexit or anything else. England and Scotland have less and less in common beyond a currency, and I can't see that as a sustainable union longer term.

Personally think that is nonsense, others will have a different view but i am very much of the opinion that we arent actually that different at all. The Brexit vote was clearly a big difference of opinion but then huge swathes of England were Remainers too and i dont think any perceived difference in Brexit voting patterns spells a massive difference in our countires.

On the money side of things, it is well established during the golden oil years we were contributors to the pot, yay for us, now that oil is on the way out we are recipients if we break it down geographically. Ebbs and flows of a nations and finances, this for me is the argument for the Union in monetary terms, you benefit when times are rough but pay in when times are good. Scotland needs a fundamental kick up the arse to get our economy firing though as our productivity and economic growth has been lagging RoUK for a while now but as we are overly focused on constitutional matters that is not surprising.

On the point about difference, England is different but no so much that its in any way alien. Much in the way of shared history etc.

The thing is, I don't feel any more difference in the Netherlands, or Belgium, or Sweden, or Ireland than I do in England. Different differences often, but again, I feel as comfortable hanging out in a bar in Lieden as I do in one in Coventry. More so sometimes.

[Northern Lights]

There's two points here - 1) The Scottish Tories are perfectly entitled to take different policy stances to the national party and 2) your last point is increasingly correct and strikes me as the greatest threat to the Union in the long term, more so than brexit or anything else. England and Scotland have less and less in common beyond a currency, and I can't see that as a sustainable union longer term.

Personally think that is nonsense, others will have a different view but i am very much of the opinion that we arent actually that different at all. The Brexit vote was clearly a big difference of opinion but then huge swathes of England were Remainers too and i dont think any perceived difference in Brexit voting patterns spells a massive difference in our countires.

On the money side of things, it is well established during the golden oil years we were contributors to the pot, yay for us, now that oil is on the way out we are recipients if we break it down geographically. Ebbs and flows of a nations and finances, this for me is the argument for the Union in monetary terms, you benefit when times are rough but pay in when times are good. Scotland needs a fundamental kick up the arse to get our economy firing though as our productivity and economic growth has been lagging RoUK for a while now but as we are overly focused on constitutional matters that is not surprising.

On the point about difference, England is different but no so much that its in any way alien. Much in the way of shared history etc.

The thing is, I don't feel any more difference in the Netherlands, or Belgium, or Sweden, or Ireland than I do in England. Different differences often, but again, I feel as comfortable hanging out in a bar in Lieden as I do in one in Coventry. More so sometimes.

Each to their own on this one. I find England much the same as Ireland but do see differences between Belgium, Netherlands and Sweden to us, don't dislike them they are just different and i am aware that i am in a foreign country, dont get the same with England or Ireland.

I spend a lot of time in France and in many ways prefer it to life in Scotland but it is certainly a different country with different attitudes. This year we staycationed in the UK and it really wasnt any different which side of the border i was on, just my view.

[tc27]

Its a bit of a meme in Scottish nationalism to say 'I identify more with (for example) Norway than I do with the rest of the UK' but I think its bollox . I mean put the average Norwegian in Newcastle and then move them to Glasgow and they would probably only notice the accents are different.

The one part of the UK that probably does have different values and is comfortably cosmopolitan compared to the rest is London but I have not heard anyone advance the claim it should become a city state.

Objectively we can see from various social altitude surveys that there is no gulf in values.

Yeah Brexit - however over a million people in Scotland voted for it and 1.3m more did note bother to vote at all.

For those with the 'fuck it' mentality - I really do not think people appreciate how much of a catastrophe it would be in practical and emotional terms - it would be a brutal process that would leave a legacy of bitterness . Also if you live in Scotland and depend on the state or have significant debts in Sterling you are going to be exposed to some brutal economics.

[Tichtheid]

What Douglas Ross and Massie are describing is basically what many of us on the pro independence side of the debate have seen growing for two or three decades. Boris and his clown show are not a one off that have come from nowhere in their attitude to Scotland. They're the culmination of a growing attitude, not just to Scotland, but to the rest of the country from the south east of England. It won't go away, but it might get a curtain drawn across or some make up put on so it doesn't look so bad.

The first few paragraphs of what's said would get a 'yeah, we've been telling you that for years' response from most reasonable independence supporters (but not the rabid froth at the mouth ones)

I've lived in the SE of England for 26 years and my experience is that it's not a growing attitude, it's always been there, basically people in the SE are not hostile to other areas and countries of the UK, it's just that they never consider them, at all.

Contrary to NL's view that minds won't be changed either way, I've seen minds being changed, at least on Social Media, for whatever that is worth, and it seems to be reflected in the polling.

[Tichtheid]

Its a bit of a meme in Scottish nationalism to say 'I identify more with (for example) Norway than I do with the rest of the UK' but I think its bollox . I mean put the average Norwegian in Newcastle and then move them to Glasgow and they would probably only notice the accents are different.

The one part of the UK that probably does have different values and is comfortably cosmopolitan compared to the rest is London but I have not heard anyone advance the claim it should become a city state.

I probably wouldn't put it as strongly as that, but I tend to agree that swathes of England are very similar to Scotland. I worked in the French Pyrenees for a bit over four years and people were the same there, too.

In the SE of England there does seem to be a bit of rush, it's very crowded and people get frustrated easily.

[tc27]

So is there going to be a proper investigation into how Krankie's husband conspired to get Salmond arrested and charged? Sounds as though the police might be interested in that one.

Was listening to some interesting focus groups of No voters in 2014 who say they would vote Yes now.

Out of all the things its amazing the extent to which it all hangs on Sturgeons perceived credibility and competence vs the generally disliked Boris.

I mean the above is a pretty serious political scandal that she is probably going to have to get her 'husband' to resign over - yet so far has made little dent on her popularity.

Likewise her handling of Covid outside of the press conferences has not being good by any stretch (the leaking of lockdown policy to the press and the reverse ferret when it was obvious how unpopular it was being the latest example).

[Biffer]

Personally think that is nonsense, others will have a different view but i am very much of the opinion that we arent actually that different at all. The Brexit vote was clearly a big difference of opinion but then huge swathes of England were Remainers too and i dont think any perceived difference in Brexit voting patterns spells a massive difference in our countires.

On the money side of things, it is well established during the golden oil years we were contributors to the pot, yay for us, now that oil is on the way out we are recipients if we break it down geographically. Ebbs and flows of a nations and finances, this for me is the argument for the Union in monetary terms, you benefit when times are rough but pay in when times are good. Scotland needs a fundamental kick up the arse to get our economy firing though as our productivity and economic growth has been lagging RoUK for a while now but as we are overly focused on constitutional matters that is not surprising.

On the point about difference, England is different but no so much that its in any way alien. Much in the way of shared history etc.

The thing is, I don't feel any more difference in the Netherlands, or Belgium, or Sweden, or Ireland than I do in England. Different differences often, but again, I feel as comfortable hanging out in a bar in Lieden as I do in one in Coventry. More so sometimes.

Each to their own on this one. I find England much the same as Ireland but do see differences between Belgium, Netherlands and Sweden to us, don't dislike them they are just different and i am aware that i am in a foreign country, dont get the same with England or Ireland.

I spend a lot of time in France and in many ways prefer it to life in Scotland but it is certainly a different country with different attitudes. This year we staycationed in the UK and it really wasnt any different which side of the border i was on, just my view.

Yeah, I appreciate that's very much a personal thing and other people will feel differently.

[Paddington Bear]

My point maybe was slightly poorly made. It is more the perception that the two countries are remarkably different that I think is increasingly the case. The lack of emotional connection will kill the Union at some point if not addressed.

I was in Glasgow this weekend, I go quite a lot and see no meaningful difference between Glasgow and the big cities of Northern England, Edinburgh has plenty of similarities to English cities of similar size. In the Highlands I feel a long way from home, more due to landscape than anything else. I would say I've never felt like a foreigner in the Scottish Central Belt, the same can't be said for Belfast, for example. It is no more meaningfully different to SE England than the M62 corridor IMHO.

Essentially what I'm getting at is the cultural differences between England and Scotland are miniscule when viewed from further away, and the sense I've always had from talking to my European colleagues is that they perceive it as little more than we might see between, say, a Hamburger and a Bavarian. If the Union survives in the longer term more people need reminding of this and there needs to be a greater effort at shared experiences.

I don't think the significantly weaker Welsh nationalist movement is simply a product of a weaker economy, as a comparison.

[tc27]

Its a bit of a meme in Scottish nationalism to say 'I identify more with (for example) Norway than I do with the rest of the UK' but I think its bollox . I mean put the average Norwegian in Newcastle and then move them to Glasgow and they would probably only notice the accents are different.

The one part of the UK that probably does have different values and is comfortably cosmopolitan compared to the rest is London but I have not heard anyone advance the claim it should become a city state.

I probably wouldn't put it as strongly as that, but I tend to agree that swathes of England are very similar to Scotland. I worked in the French Pyrenees for a bit over four years and people were the same there, too.

In the SE of England there does seem to be a bit of rush, it's very crowded and people get frustrated easily.

Its hard to draw conclusions TBF but I do feel the SE of England is different - the density of population, commuting and the much higher exposure to immigration (in a positive and negative way) has shaped politics here.

Even in the SE if you get out of the commuter belt towns you will find stunning landscapes, sleepy villages (with amazing pubs) and a different pace of life. Outside the commuter towns you get concentrations of poverty and crime or places that have simply become backwaters as they have no direct connections to London.

Likewise people hold absurd views on what life in Scotland is like (some kind of Highland pastiche) not realising that most people live in the relatively urban central belt and Glasgow's industrial heritage.

[Paddington Bear]

So is there going to be a proper investigation into how Krankie's husband conspired to get Salmond arrested and charged? Sounds as though the police might be interested in that one.

Was listening to some interesting focus groups of No voters in 2014 who say they would vote Yes now.

Out of all the things its amazing the extent to which it all hangs on Sturgeons perceived credibility and competence vs the generally disliked Boris.

I mean the above is a pretty serious political scandal that she is probably going to have to get her 'husband' to resign over - yet so far has made little dent on her popularity.

Likewise her handling of Covid outside of the press conferences has not being good by any stretch (the leaking of lockdown policy to the press and the reverse ferret when it was obvious how unpopular it was being the latest example).

She benefits from the point of comparison with Boris IMHO. Boris is incapable of delivering a cogent and clear press conference in a crisis, whereas she is a more effective communicator in these circumstances. Practically their policies have been very closely aligned.

[Paddington Bear]

Its a bit of a meme in Scottish nationalism to say 'I identify more with (for example) Norway than I do with the rest of the UK' but I think its bollox . I mean put the average Norwegian in Newcastle and then move them to Glasgow and they would probably only notice the accents are different.

The one part of the UK that probably does have different values and is comfortably cosmopolitan compared to the rest is London but I have not heard anyone advance the claim it should become a city state.

I probably wouldn't put it as strongly as that, but I tend to agree that swathes of England are very similar to Scotland. I worked in the French Pyrenees for a bit over four years and people were the same there, too.

In the SE of England there does seem to be a bit of rush, it's very crowded and people get frustrated easily.

Its hard to draw conclusions TBF but I do feel the SE of England is different - the density of population, commuting and the much higher exposure to immigration (in a positive and negative way) has shaped politics here.

Even in the SE if you get out of the commuter belt towns you will find stunning landscapes, sleepy villages (with amazing pubs) and a different pace of life. Outside the commuter towns you get concentrations of poverty and crime or places that have simply become backwaters as they have no direct connections to London.

Likewise people hold absurd views on what life in Scotland is like (some kind of Highland pastiche) not realising that most people live in the relatively urban central belt and Glasgow's industrial heritage.

The Highland pastiche seems to me to be not discouraged by a reasonably large proportion of the Scottish population. Which is fascinating given the lengths the lowlanders went to in order to crush it for much of their history. Would make a very interesting book.

[tc27]

My point maybe was slightly poorly made. It is more the perception that the two countries are remarkably different that I think is increasingly the case. The lack of emotional connection will kill the Union at some point if not addressed.

I was in Glasgow this weekend, I go quite a lot and see no meaningful difference between Glasgow and the big cities of Northern England, Edinburgh has plenty of similarities to English cities of similar size. In the Highlands I feel a long way from home, more due to landscape than anything else. I would say I've never felt like a foreigner in the Scottish Central Belt, the same can't be said for Belfast, for example. It is no more meaningfully different to SE England than the M62 corridor IMHO.

Essentially what I'm getting at is the cultural differences between England and Scotland are miniscule when viewed from further away, and the sense I've always had from talking to my European colleagues is that they perceive it as little more than we might see between, say, a Hamburger and a Bavarian. If the Union survives in the longer term more people need reminding of this and there needs to be a greater effort at shared experiences.

I don't think the significantly weaker Welsh nationalist movement is simply a product of a weaker economy, as a comparison.

I do agree with this actually.

Devolution has pretty much made all the government institutions people interact with on a daily basis come from Holyrood and the SNP has cleverly made sure the 'Scottish' branding is empathised and changed names and branding if necessary ('Police Scotland' ETC).

The less obvious but equally important UK wide arms of government (the Treasury, Defence, pensions ETC) just do not register with people as much.

[Slick]

My point maybe was slightly poorly made. It is more the perception that the two countries are remarkably different that I think is increasingly the case. The lack of emotional connection will kill the Union at some point if not addressed.

I was in Glasgow this weekend, I go quite a lot and see no meaningful difference between Glasgow and the big cities of Northern England, Edinburgh has plenty of similarities to English cities of similar size. In the Highlands I feel a long way from home, more due to landscape than anything else. I would say I've never felt like a foreigner in the Scottish Central Belt, the same can't be said for Belfast, for example. It is no more meaningfully different to SE England than the M62 corridor IMHO.

Essentially what I'm getting at is the cultural differences between England and Scotland are miniscule when viewed from further away, and the sense I've always had from talking to my European colleagues is that they perceive it as little more than we might see between, say, a Hamburger and a Bavarian. If the Union survives in the longer term more people need reminding of this and there needs to be a greater effort at shared experiences.

I don't think the significantly weaker Welsh nationalist movement is simply a product of a weaker economy, as a comparison.

I disagree with this actually. Scots get treated very differently around the world than English, whether thats in a business or social environment. Any foreign tourists or immigrants you speak with in Edinburgh will tell you very quickly in the conversation how different they feel Scots are.

[Paddington Bear]

My point maybe was slightly poorly made. It is more the perception that the two countries are remarkably different that I think is increasingly the case. The lack of emotional connection will kill the Union at some point if not addressed.

I was in Glasgow this weekend, I go quite a lot and see no meaningful difference between Glasgow and the big cities of Northern England, Edinburgh has plenty of similarities to English cities of similar size. In the Highlands I feel a long way from home, more due to landscape than anything else. I would say I've never felt like a foreigner in the Scottish Central Belt, the same can't be said for Belfast, for example. It is no more meaningfully different to SE England than the M62 corridor IMHO.

Essentially what I'm getting at is the cultural differences between England and Scotland are miniscule when viewed from further away, and the sense I've always had from talking to my European colleagues is that they perceive it as little more than we might see between, say, a Hamburger and a Bavarian. If the Union survives in the longer term more people need reminding of this and there needs to be a greater effort at shared experiences.

I don't think the significantly weaker Welsh nationalist movement is simply a product of a weaker economy, as a comparison.

I do agree with this actually.

Devolution has pretty much made all the government institutions people interact with on a daily basis come from Holyrood and the SNP has cleverly made sure the 'Scottish' branding is empathised and changed names and branding if necessary ('Police Scotland' ETC).

The less obvious but equally important UK wide arms of government (the Treasury, Defence, pensions ETC) just do not register with people as much.

Exactly this. As Scottish branding has increased in prominence (and I include in this free tuition in Scotland), the pillars of the British nation have diminished (the Wars, National Industries, the Trade Unions, National Service, Protestantism, the NHS etc) and there hasn't really been any effort made to replace them thus far.

[Biffer]

My point maybe was slightly poorly made. It is more the perception that the two countries are remarkably different that I think is increasingly the case. The lack of emotional connection will kill the Union at some point if not addressed.

I was in Glasgow this weekend, I go quite a lot and see no meaningful difference between Glasgow and the big cities of Northern England, Edinburgh has plenty of similarities to English cities of similar size. In the Highlands I feel a long way from home, more due to landscape than anything else. I would say I've never felt like a foreigner in the Scottish Central Belt, the same can't be said for Belfast, for example. It is no more meaningfully different to SE England than the M62 corridor IMHO.

Essentially what I'm getting at is the cultural differences between England and Scotland are miniscule when viewed from further away, and the sense I've always had from talking to my European colleagues is that they perceive it as little more than we might see between, say, a Hamburger and a Bavarian. If the Union survives in the longer term more people need reminding of this and there needs to be a greater effort at shared experiences.

I don't think the significantly weaker Welsh nationalist movement is simply a product of a weaker economy, as a comparison.

I disagree with this actually. Scots get treated very differently around the world than English, whether thats in a business or social environment. Any foreign tourists or immigrants you speak with in Edinburgh will tell you very quickly in the conversation how different they feel Scots are.

Yeah, same. Particularly with the Europeans. the number of times I've been on a exhibit stand and people have made a big distinction when they find out I'm from Scotland when my colleagues aren't. Usually along the lines of 'so you guys will be back soon, yes?'.

Again, my personal experience, not claiming it's universal.

[Bimbowomxn]

Scots travellers are treated differently, that’s some special made up othering there boys.

[tc27]

Hmmmmm