NPR

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:07 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:03 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:52 pm Wooden spoon last year, not bad 19/20, relegated from the JWRC 18/19. And this team is lacking a lot of quality.

SRU are asleep at the wheel. The age grades are regressing fast, exiles pathways are all well and good but development in Scotland is failing.

Enjoy tomorrow and the next few years. The dark days aren't far away if this continues. Wise up Mallinder.

Dry your eyes mun, Scotland have always been rubbish at age grade, they were when I played at that level and the senior team were not poor, I stood on the terraces to watch us win two grand slams.

The SRU are the ones bringing the game into the 21st century now, they are opposed by the clubs, the clubs opposed the Super 6, they opposed professionalism, the only way for Scotland to progress is to follow the route Dodson is providing.

And for the majority of the time they've been rubbish at international level as well mate. Especially in the pro era

Creating the super6 is all well and good. It needs to actually develop players to be a success. I've enjoyed it - but it hasn't developed anyone yet. Creating the super6 isn't the success - it could be a dramatic failure. Four of the boys out there played super6 this year - what are the rest of them doing? Either in England or nothing apparently.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:04 pm

Tattie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:01 pm I don’t care what anyone says or the “sensible” arguments re funding. Simply put, you cannot expect to compete with two pro teams and by far the smallest pool of available players of any off our competitors, there is just no depth. The SRU have to find the money from somewhere or accept permanent mediocrity punctuated by very occasional success. Yeah the national team are doing well at the moment but what’s to come - a team full of poaches?

Pro teams aren't really relevant to the 20s. How many of these players are going pro? Very few I'd wager.

The problem is clubs and schools are not creating good players consistently. We've been the worst home nations under20s side for a good few years now.

The SRU for a long time have been offshoring development. The "scottishness" debate is a red herring. There is a clear problem in that the SRU are clearly using other countries to develop players for Scotland.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:10 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:07 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:03 pm


Dry your eyes mun, Scotland have always been rubbish at age grade, they were when I played at that level and the senior team were not poor, I stood on the terraces to watch us win two grand slams.

The SRU are the ones bringing the game into the 21st century now, they are opposed by the clubs, the clubs opposed the Super 6, they opposed professionalism, the only way for Scotland to progress is to follow the route Dodson is providing.

And for the majority of the time they've been rubbish at international level as well mate. Especially in the pro era

Creating the super6 is all well and good. It needs to actually develop players to be a success. I've enjoyed it - but it hasn't developed anyone yet. Creating the super6 isn't the success - it could be a dramatic failure. Four of the boys out there played super6 this year - what are the rest of them doing? Either in England or nothing apparently.

How many seasons has the Super 6 been running and playing fixtures?

Tattie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:10 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:04 pm

Tattie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:01 pm I don’t care what anyone says or the “sensible” arguments re funding. Simply put, you cannot expect to compete with two pro teams and by far the smallest pool of available players of any off our competitors, there is just no depth. The SRU have to find the money from somewhere or accept permanent mediocrity punctuated by very occasional success. Yeah the national team are doing well at the moment but what’s to come - a team full of poaches?

Pro teams aren't really relevant to the 20s. How many of these players are going pro? Very few I'd wager.

The problem is clubs and schools are not creating good players consistently. We've been the worst home nations under20s side for a good few years now.

The SRU for a long time have been offshoring development. The "scottishness" debate is a red herring. There is a clear problem in that the SRU are clearly using other countries to develop players for Scotland.

I’m not just talking about the U20s, the bigger picture just looks depressing to me. The current “success” i.e. competitiveness is papering over huge cracks. We’re becoming a bit of a laughing stock in regard to the poaches and it’s only going to get worse.

Tattie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:10 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:04 pm

Tattie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:01 pm I don’t care what anyone says or the “sensible” arguments re funding. Simply put, you cannot expect to compete with two pro teams and by far the smallest pool of available players of any off our competitors, there is just no depth. The SRU have to find the money from somewhere or accept permanent mediocrity punctuated by very occasional success. Yeah the national team are doing well at the moment but what’s to come - a team full of poaches?

Pro teams aren't really relevant to the 20s. How many of these players are going pro? Very few I'd wager.

The problem is clubs and schools are not creating good players consistently. We've been the worst home nations under20s side for a good few years now.

The SRU for a long time have been offshoring development. The "scottishness" debate is a red herring. There is a clear problem in that the SRU are clearly using other countries to develop players for Scotland.

I’m not just talking about the U20s, the bigger picture just looks depressing to me. The current “success” i.e. competitiveness is papering over huge cracks. We’re becoming a bit of a laughing stock in regard to the poaches and it’s only going to get worse.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:16 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:10 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:07 pm

And for the majority of the time they've been rubbish at international level as well mate. Especially in the pro era

Creating the super6 is all well and good. It needs to actually develop players to be a success. I've enjoyed it - but it hasn't developed anyone yet. Creating the super6 isn't the success - it could be a dramatic failure. Four of the boys out there played super6 this year - what are the rest of them doing? Either in England or nothing apparently.

How many seasons has the Super 6 been running and playing fixtures?

Two.

But you're suggesting that creating super6 is a great success. I am saying it might not be. There's no guarantee here.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:04 pm
The problem is clubs and schools are not creating good players consistently. We've been the worst home nations under20s side for a good few years now.

The SRU for a long time have been offshoring development. The "scottishness" debate is a red herring. There is a clear problem in that the SRU are clearly using other countries to develop players for Scotland.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:19 pm

Tattie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:10 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:04 pm

Pro teams aren't really relevant to the 20s. How many of these players are going pro? Very few I'd wager.

The problem is clubs and schools are not creating good players consistently. We've been the worst home nations under20s side for a good few years now.

The SRU for a long time have been offshoring development. The "scottishness" debate is a red herring. There is a clear problem in that the SRU are clearly using other countries to develop players for Scotland.

I’m not just talking about the U20s, the bigger picture just looks depressing to me. The current “success” i.e. competitiveness is papering over huge cracks. We’re becoming a bit of a laughing stock in regard to the poaches and it’s only going to get worse.

Only to halfwits.

The fact is that Scottish people emigrate, there is a whole big debate as to why that is, and it's for another thread perhaps, but the qualifications are what they are.
For every "poach" in rugby terms you could call multitudes of "poaches" of young Scottish people who have gone to live and work abroad, it's just down to how you want to word these things.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:25 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:16 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:10 pm



How many seasons has the Super 6 been running and playing fixtures?

Two.

But you're suggesting that creating super6 is a great success. I am saying it might not be. There's no guarantee here.

Both of your suggestions are not quite true. The first season was curtailed, so there's only really been one and a bit.

I did not say the Super 6 is a great success, you will have to point to the quote from me on that.

I'm only saying that we give the Super 6 a chance because the clubs were not preparing players to be ready to step up. That much was patently obvious from both the results when our clubs played the second tier clubs in England and got battered and when we needed players to fill in for injuries for Edinburgh and Glasgow

Also, reading on the Glasgow forum from guys who have sons playing in the S6 and in and around the academy system, the consensus is that the conditioning of the S6 guys is far superior to that of the previous club game.
That is one of the reasons that S6 players are not allowed to play for the clubs in the amateur leagues

Tattie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:32 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:19 pm

Tattie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:10 pm

I’m not just talking about the U20s, the bigger picture just looks depressing to me. The current “success” i.e. competitiveness is papering over huge cracks. We’re becoming a bit of a laughing stock in regard to the poaches and it’s only going to get worse.

Only to halfwits.

The fact is that Scottish people emigrate, there is a whole big debate as to why that is, and it's for another thread perhaps, but the qualifications are what they are.
For every "poach" in rugby terms you could call multitudes of "poaches" of young Scottish people who have gone to live and work abroad, it's just down to how you want to word these things.

Come on, you know fine well no sensible person would have any issue with, or that I’m talking about, those kind of players. We’re not the only ones that do it and we’re not breaking any rules but with our massive, self imposed handicap, it’s inevitable and ain’t going to change if we want to remain remotely competitive.

Big D wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:29 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:04 pm
The problem is clubs and schools are not creating good players consistently. We've been the worst home nations under20s side for a good few years now.

The SRU for a long time have been offshoring development. The "scottishness" debate is a red herring. There is a clear problem in that the SRU are clearly using other countries to develop players for Scotland.

That's the problem. Bar a very small number of schools in the grand scheme of things, schools aren't interested in rugby unless the SRU or clubs are funding it. Most clubs can't afford it and the SRU can't fund it in schools to the extent that is required.

Clubs do an admirable job with youth sections but there is a drop off in numbers the older the kids get.

Councils aren't bothered about rugby but happy to subsidise football with 4g pitches because of participation numbers.

This isn't just an SRU problem in the sense that they alone can solve it, but it is very much a problem for the SRU.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:34 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:25 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:16 pm

Two.

But you're suggesting that creating super6 is a great success. I am saying it might not be. There's no guarantee here.

Both of your suggestions are not quite true. The first season was curtailed, so there's only really been one and a bit.

I did not say the Super 6 is a great success, you will have to point to the quote from me on that.

I'm only saying that we give the Super 6 a chance because the clubs were not preparing players to be ready to step up. That much was patently obvious from both the results when our clubs played the second tier clubs in England and got battered and when we needed players to fill in for injuries for Edinburgh and Glasgow

Also, reading on the Glasgow forum from guys who have sons playing in the S6 and in and around the academy system, the consensus is that the conditioning of the S6 guys is far superior to that of the previous club game.
That is one of the reasons that S6 players are not allowed to play for the clubs in the amateur leagues

Which is fine, I agree super6 players generally shouldn't play premiership. But guys like Tait, Townsend, McKnight, Munn, Williamson etc played a few games between them in the super6 and haven't played rugby since. After missing out on rugby for a year due to covid. Where's the logic in that? 19 year olds are too physical for the amateur premiership? Because of the super6 the most promising youngsters in Scotland barely play rugby. It's just a bad design whatever way you slice it. Because nobody gets developed if they only play three months a year.

Tattie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:39 pm Yeah Wales are going to win this. Scotland only themselves to blame, should have been out of sight by half time.

ETA there you go.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:37 pm

Tattie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:32 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:19 pm


Only to halfwits.

The fact is that Scottish people emigrate, there is a whole big debate as to why that is, and it's for another thread perhaps, but the qualifications are what they are.
For every "poach" in rugby terms you could call multitudes of "poaches" of young Scottish people who have gone to live and work abroad, it's just down to how you want to word these things.

Come on, you know fine well no sensible person would have any issue with, or that I’m talking about, those kind of players. We’re not the only ones that do it and we’re not breaking any rules but with our massive, self imposed handicap, it’s inevitable and ain’t going to change if we want to remain remotely competitive.

Japan have scouts going around Tongan schools, offering scholarships to big beefy athletic kids. French clubs have scouts ranging around the Pacific, Saracens have "ties" with clubs in that area and elsewhere.

Why are we pulling on the hairshirt?

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:40 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:34 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:25 pm


Both of your suggestions are not quite true. The first season was curtailed, so there's only really been one and a bit.

I did not say the Super 6 is a great success, you will have to point to the quote from me on that.

I'm only saying that we give the Super 6 a chance because the clubs were not preparing players to be ready to step up. That much was patently obvious from both the results when our clubs played the second tier clubs in England and got battered and when we needed players to fill in for injuries for Edinburgh and Glasgow

Also, reading on the Glasgow forum from guys who have sons playing in the S6 and in and around the academy system, the consensus is that the conditioning of the S6 guys is far superior to that of the previous club game.
That is one of the reasons that S6 players are not allowed to play for the clubs in the amateur leagues

Which is fine, I agree super6 players generally shouldn't play premiership. But guys like Tait, Townsend, McKnight, Munn, Williamson etc played a few games between them in the super6 and haven't played rugby since. After missing out on rugby for a year due to covid. Where's the logic in that? 19 year olds are too physical for the amateur premiership? Because of the super6 the most promising youngsters in Scotland barely play rugby. It's just a bad design whatever way you slice it. Because nobody gets developed if they only play three months a year.

The plan was never to play three months a year.

There were plans to play cross-border stuff with Welsh and Irish sides and maybe English teams too.

I wonder what could have possibly happened to put the coolers on that?

I don't think it was the SRU being asleep at the wheel.

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:43 pm Can’t we just enjoy being good for a couple more years…

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:51 pm Was already feeling depressed without all the negativity on here tonight…

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:52 pm . The Newcastle falcons D team did beat each super6 club handily right enough.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:57 pm

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:51 pm Was already feeling depressed without all the negativity on here tonight…

Well exactly, I don't where the roarin' and greetin' is coming from.

We've got the best full international side we've had for a long time. Our U20s is always a work in progress. We have some real talent available right now and some incredible youngsters coming through (Darge, Boyle, Muncaster for example)

The SRU are making changes to improve the feed of players to the pro teams, the stated aim is to grow to another pro team and the club game has had steps taken to maintain long term stability.

Yet there is still the "oh we'll pay for this" Presbyterian wishing for the dark clouds and rain

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:38 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:29 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:04 pm
The problem is clubs and schools are not creating good players consistently. We've been the worst home nations under20s side for a good few years now.

The SRU for a long time have been offshoring development. The "scottishness" debate is a red herring. There is a clear problem in that the SRU are clearly using other countries to develop players for Scotland.

That's the problem. Bar a very small number of schools in the grand scheme of things, schools aren't interested in rugby unless the SRU or clubs are funding it. Most clubs can't afford it and the SRU can't fund it in schools to the extent that is required.

Clubs do an admirable job with youth sections but there is a drop off in numbers the older the kids get.

Councils aren't bothered about rugby but happy to subsidise football with 4g pitches because of participation numbers.

This isn't just an SRU problem in the sense that they alone can solve it, but it is very much a problem for the SRU.

True it's a problem. But surely we can take lessons from Ireland or Wales. I can't believe all of those countries with perhaps football teams that are more successful than Scotland internationally are doing it. I can't imagine governments are throwing money at the sport.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:09 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:57 pm

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:51 pm Was already feeling depressed without all the negativity on here tonight…

Well exactly, I don't where the roarin' and greetin' is coming from.

We've got the best full international side we've had for a long time. Our U20s is always a work in progress. We have some real talent available right now and some incredible youngsters coming through (Darge, Boyle, Muncaster for example)

The SRU are making changes to improve the feed of players to the pro teams, the stated aim is to grow to another pro team and the club game has had steps taken to maintain long term stability.

Yet there is still the "oh we'll pay for this" Presbyterian wishing for the dark clouds and rain

Age group level rugby is always going to be tough for us with the small player pool we have. We’ll rarely have talent across a whole side.

We genuinely have more depth of talent available to us than at any time I can recall. If anything we are underperforming a bit. We should at least be good for the next 5 years or so, and who knows after that?

Big D wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:12 pm

On coaching, gone are the days of the random teachers taking school teams. I know of clubs paying for coaches for the school teams which isn't sustainable. The SRU have development officers but they can only do so much.

Biffer wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:37 pm There’s a desperation amongst some of the clubs to scream the super 6 into failure.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:43 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:37 pm There’s a desperation amongst some of the clubs to scream the super 6 into failure.

There is, because that will allow them to be the big fishes that fill the pond in Inverleith Park for a while,

but it would mean the death of rugby in the long run in Scotland, with only the public schools playing against each other and one or two hingers oan

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:40 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:12 pm

On coaching, gone are the days of the random teachers taking school teams. I know of clubs paying for coaches for the school teams which isn't sustainable. The SRU have development officers but they can only do so much.

Are clubs allowed to pay for coaches still?

I thought this went out with the player payment regs, but I'm open to correction

Big D wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:29 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:04 pm
The problem is clubs and schools are not creating good players consistently. We've been the worst home nations under20s side for a good few years now.

The SRU for a long time have been offshoring development. The "scottishness" debate is a red herring. There is a clear problem in that the SRU are clearly using other countries to develop players for Scotland.

That's the problem. Bar a very small number of schools in the grand scheme of things, schools aren't interested in rugby unless the SRU or clubs are funding it. Most clubs can't afford it and the SRU can't fund it in schools to the extent that is required.

Clubs do an admirable job with youth sections but there is a drop off in numbers the older the kids get.

Councils aren't bothered about rugby but happy to subsidise football with 4g pitches because of participation numbers.

This isn't just an SRU problem in the sense that they alone can solve it, but it is very much a problem for the SRU.

weegie01 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:36 am Here is a small example of something being done right to counter the doom and gloom.

I grew up in Highland Perthshire. Rugby was only played in the private schools, and until Crieff rugby club started there were no clubs other than Perthshire.

Crieff Rugby Club started up just as I left school, and now Crieff High School has rugby pitches and plays regularly. Breadalbane (Aberfeldy) has no rugby pitch, but there is now a rugby club in Aberfeldy with its own pitch which is doing its best for youngsters. They were looking for a DO recently. There is now enough rugby players at school in the area for a composite team from a number of schools to enter the schools cup.

These are baby steps. But some kids who were never exposed to rugby before now are getting opportunities their predecessor generations never had.

As far a Super 6 is concerned, my son and his pals had a season in the clubs before Super 6 came along. My son broke and his career is over, but he has pals (including his flat mate) playing Super 6, pro and for Scotland.

I only ever watched Currie club games, so a small sample, but as a spectator I am in no doubt Super 6 is a higher standard. The players are very strongly of this opinion and believe that it gives a foundation to step up. Having said that, COVID scuppered the fixtures and the lads are training away and are bored stiff.

I was doubtful of it at first, but what I hear from the players, and the ambition to go to 8 clubs, makes me think the Super 6 is already beneficial and will be more so if and when a more meaningful fixture list is sorted out.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:18 am

weegie01 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:36 am Here is a small example of something being done right to counter the doom and gloom.

I grew up in Highland Perthshire. Rugby was only played in the private schools, and until Crieff rugby club started there were no clubs other than Perthshire.

Crieff Rugby Club started up just as I left school, and now Crieff High School has rugby pitches and plays regularly. Breadalbane (Aberfeldy) has no rugby pitch, but there is now a rugby club in Aberfeldy with its own pitch which is doing its best for youngsters. They were looking for a DO recently. There is now enough rugby players at school in the area for a composite team from a number of schools to enter the schools cup.

These are baby steps. But some kids who were never exposed to rugby before now are getting opportunities their predecessor generations never had.

As far a Super 6 is concerned, my son and his pals had a season in the clubs before Super 6 came along. My son broke and his career is over, but he has pals (including his flat mate) playing Super 6, pro and for Scotland.

I only ever watched Currie club games, so a small sample, but as a spectator I am in no doubt Super 6 is a higher standard. The players are very strongly of this opinion and believe that it gives a foundation to step up. Having said that, COVID scuppered the fixtures and the lads are training away and are bored stiff.

I was doubtful of it at first, but what I hear from the players, and the ambition to go to 8 clubs, makes me think the Super 6 is already beneficial and will be more so if and when a more meaningful fixture list is sorted out.

I grew up in Aberfeldy, and I wish there had been a rugby club around when I was there. Farming communities and rugby go together very well!

Have you seen the pitch in Aberfeldy? What a setting! Right by the river next to Wades Bridge looking straight up the Glen. Hard to imagine a better setting to play in.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:18 amHave you seen the pitch in Aberfeldy? What a setting! Right by the river next to Wades Bridge looking straight up the Glen. Hard to imagine a better setting to play in.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 1:15 pm Argh, this bloody game. I am a bag of nerves and I don’t even intend to watch it live. Scotland are playing well with a settled side. Wales are a mess. But we just don’t turn up in Cardiff, ever, and you just know that the Welsh will play out of their skins in front of a home crowd, because they are desperate to get a result and see us as a soft target.

I just can’t bear yet another story of Wales defying the form book to see off Scotland. But I’ve read it too many times before to believe it will end differently this time.

weegie01 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 12:36 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:18 amHave you seen the pitch in Aberfeldy? What a setting! Right by the river next to Wades Bridge looking straight up the Glen. Hard to imagine a better setting to play in.

I pass it often. They used to play on Kenmore Sportsground where there was a clubhouse and a nice pitch. I am unsure why they moved for this season but the showground is a lovely location.

dkm57 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 1:27 pm

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 1:15 pm Argh, this bloody game. I am a bag of nerves and I don’t even intend to watch it live. Scotland are playing well with a settled side. Wales are a mess. But we just don’t turn up in Cardiff, ever, and you just know that the Welsh will play out of their skins in front of a home crowd, because they are desperate to get a result and see us as a soft target.

I just can’t bear yet another story of Wales defying the form book to see off Scotland. But I’ve read it too many times before to believe it will end differently this time.

Feeling the same