NPR

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:48 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:42 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:26 pm

I’d agree with this in general, but today we looked blunt with the 12 we chose.

Sorry to bang on about it but I’m really quite annoyed by the selection

The 12, 6 and front row selections. All didn't work.

Why change a winning team?

Totally agree on the front row as well. Was Skinner that bad though? Genuine question as I thought during the game he was putting himself about OK.

In saying that, it certainly showed how Richie has fairly quietly become integral to every we do well

Wales beat us at the breakdown and a reason is when you play three second rows they're too slow around the park. Skinner played fine as a second row: blindside flanker he isn't.

Agree, and Ritchie is a key leader. I thought before our strength in depth isn't great with Ritchie out we shoehorned Skinner in and Bradbury wasn't good either.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:51 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:48 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:42 pm

The 12, 6 and front row selections. All didn't work.

Why change a winning team?

Totally agree on the front row as well. Was Skinner that bad though? Genuine question as I thought during the game he was putting himself about OK.

In saying that, it certainly showed how Richie has fairly quietly become integral to every we do well

Wales beat us at the breakdown and a reason is when you play three second rows they're too slow around the park. Skinner played fine as a second row: blindside flanker he isn't.

Agree, and Ritchie is a key leader. I thought before our strength in depth isn't great with Ritchie out we shoehorned Skinner in and Bradbury wasn't good either.

So who plays next time? Ritchie isn’t going to be available. Possibly not Fagerson either. Bradbury at 8 and Christie at 6?

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:51 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:48 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:42 pm

The 12, 6 and front row selections. All didn't work.

Why change a winning team?

Totally agree on the front row as well. Was Skinner that bad though? Genuine question as I thought during the game he was putting himself about OK.

In saying that, it certainly showed how Richie has fairly quietly become integral to every we do well

Wales beat us at the breakdown and a reason is when you play three second rows they're too slow around the park. Skinner played fine as a second row: blindside flanker he isn't.

Agree, and Ritchie is a key leader. I thought before our strength in depth isn't great with Ritchie out we shoehorned Skinner in and Bradbury wasn't good either.

This is just negativity gone wild.

I can't be arsed arguing it, but look up the stats of those players today

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:02 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:51 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:48 pm

Totally agree on the front row as well. Was Skinner that bad though? Genuine question as I thought during the game he was putting himself about OK.

In saying that, it certainly showed how Richie has fairly quietly become integral to every we do well

Wales beat us at the breakdown and a reason is when you play three second rows they're too slow around the park. Skinner played fine as a second row: blindside flanker he isn't.

Agree, and Ritchie is a key leader. I thought before our strength in depth isn't great with Ritchie out we shoehorned Skinner in and Bradbury wasn't good either.

This is just negativity gone wild.

I can't be arsed arguing it, but look up the stats of those players today

In sports there's one stat that matters. It's positivity gone wild to celebrate the tackle count in a losing performance.

Did Skinner play better than Basham? No. Did Bradbury play better than Moriarty? No.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:53 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:51 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:48 pm

Totally agree on the front row as well. Was Skinner that bad though? Genuine question as I thought during the game he was putting himself about OK.

In saying that, it certainly showed how Richie has fairly quietly become integral to every we do well

Wales beat us at the breakdown and a reason is when you play three second rows they're too slow around the park. Skinner played fine as a second row: blindside flanker he isn't.

Agree, and Ritchie is a key leader. I thought before our strength in depth isn't great with Ritchie out we shoehorned Skinner in and Bradbury wasn't good either.

So who plays next time? Ritchie isn’t going to be available. Possibly not Fagerson either. Bradbury at 8 and Christie at 6?

I'd be tempted by Darge and Watson. Wales showed today two good opensides can work well.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:09 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:02 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:51 pm

Wales beat us at the breakdown and a reason is when you play three second rows they're too slow around the park. Skinner played fine as a second row: blindside flanker he isn't.

Agree, and Ritchie is a key leader. I thought before our strength in depth isn't great with Ritchie out we shoehorned Skinner in and Bradbury wasn't good either.

This is just negativity gone wild.

I can't be arsed arguing it, but look up the stats of those players today

In sports there's one stat that matters. It's positivity gone wild to celebrate the tackle count in a losing performance.

Did Skinner play better than Basham? No. Did Bradbury play better than Moriarty? No.

There is nuance, I thought Basham was terrific. Bradbury was better than Moriarty, yes.

You just seem to have such a shite time of it all, I wonder why you bother.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:14 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:55 pm
If our attacking game was looking sharp but guys kept dropping it then I wouldn't criticise AB Zondagh. However our attack has been woeful.

I don't think it has, last week we took 14 points from terrific moves in a game we played on the back foot for a lot of the time. Today we scored a fantastic try and for the most part of the game when we had possession we looked really good, especially in the first half.
I thought that we looked the far more potent in attack than either team we've faced so far

The discipline has been woeful, not the attack

We've scored two off set piece moves, one of which may have been Finn ad-libing. And didn't look dangerous outwith that v England.

We looked dangerous in brief spells in that first half but alot of it was off broken play busts rather than structured attacking play. We scored 3 in the second half and barely looked like scoring very often in that second half. I lost count the number of times Finn had next to no one outside him.

The discipline is our no.1 problem but we should be be posing a far greater threat consistently than we are. Wales soaked up that second half pretty easily.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:09 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:02 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:51 pm

Wales beat us at the breakdown and a reason is when you play three second rows they're too slow around the park. Skinner played fine as a second row: blindside flanker he isn't.

Agree, and Ritchie is a key leader. I thought before our strength in depth isn't great with Ritchie out we shoehorned Skinner in and Bradbury wasn't good either.

This is just negativity gone wild.

I can't be arsed arguing it, but look up the stats of those players today

In sports there's one stat that matters. It's positivity gone wild to celebrate the tackle count in a losing performance.

Did Skinner play better than Basham? No. Did Bradbury play better than Moriarty? No.

I thought Bradbury was our best back row and Skinner our best second row. Which was part of the problem.

I'd be tempted by a Cummings/Skinner second row v France. Gray was miles off it today.

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:48 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:42 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:26 pm

I’d agree with this in general, but today we looked blunt with the 12 we chose.

Sorry to bang on about it but I’m really quite annoyed by the selection

The 12, 6 and front row selections. All didn't work.

Why change a winning team?

Totally agree on the front row as well. Was Skinner that bad though? Genuine question as I thought during the game he was putting himself about OK.

In saying that, it certainly showed how Richie has fairly quietly become integral to every we do well

I thought Schoeman was pretty good in comparison to his front row colleagues. The THs and hookers (bar good arrows) we much of a muchness with the subs contributing 2 daft penalties at key moments. Particularly Zanders one.

Turner gave away 3 pens in 35min. That's pretty special.

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:52 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:14 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:55 pm
If our attacking game was looking sharp but guys kept dropping it then I wouldn't criticise AB Zondagh. However our attack has been woeful.

I don't think it has, last week we took 14 points from terrific moves in a game we played on the back foot for a lot of the time. Today we scored a fantastic try and for the most part of the game when we had possession we looked really good, especially in the first half.
I thought that we looked the far more potent in attack than either team we've faced so far

The discipline has been woeful, not the attack

We've scored two off set piece moves, one of which may have been Finn ad-libing. And didn't look dangerous outwith that v England.

We looked dangerous in brief spells in that first half but alot of it was off broken play busts rather than structured attacking play. We scored 3 in the second half and barely looked like scoring very often in that second half. I lost count the number of times Finn had next to no one outside him.

The discipline is our no.1 problem but we should be be posing a far greater threat consistently than we are. Wales soaked up that second half pretty easily.

The broken play stuff doesn't come out of nowhere, the players are picked to break tackles and/or avoid them, Graham looked dangerous for most of the game. Duhan less so but we didn't manufacture space for him bar one gallop as far as I recall.
Wales didn't look like scoring from open play at any time during that match, their try came from a maul.

I thought we looked threatening when we got a few phases going but we didn't get the breakdown right so that threat was never really realised

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:57 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:09 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:02 pm


This is just negativity gone wild.

I can't be arsed arguing it, but look up the stats of those players today

In sports there's one stat that matters. It's positivity gone wild to celebrate the tackle count in a losing performance.

Did Skinner play better than Basham? No. Did Bradbury play better than Moriarty? No.

I thought Bradbury was our best back row and Skinner our best second row. Which was part of the problem.

I'd be tempted by a Cummings/Skinner second row v France. Gray was miles off it today.

Harsh on Gilcho who was still smashing it up on 80 minutes

It's probably been said already, but if not, today showed how much of an influence Jamie Ritchie is on our game

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:02 am

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:52 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:14 pm


I don't think it has, last week we took 14 points from terrific moves in a game we played on the back foot for a lot of the time. Today we scored a fantastic try and for the most part of the game when we had possession we looked really good, especially in the first half.
I thought that we looked the far more potent in attack than either team we've faced so far

The discipline has been woeful, not the attack

We've scored two off set piece moves, one of which may have been Finn ad-libing. And didn't look dangerous outwith that v England.

We looked dangerous in brief spells in that first half but alot of it was off broken play busts rather than structured attacking play. We scored 3 in the second half and barely looked like scoring very often in that second half. I lost count the number of times Finn had next to no one outside him.

The discipline is our no.1 problem but we should be be posing a far greater threat consistently than we are. Wales soaked up that second half pretty easily.

The broken play stuff doesn't come out of nowhere, the players are picked to break tackles and/or avoid them, Graham looked dangerous for most of the game. Duhan less so but we didn't manufacture space for him bar one gallop as far as I recall.
Wales didn't look like scoring from open play at any time during that match, their try came from a maul.

I thought we looked threatening when we got a few phases going but we didn't get the breakdown right so that threat was never really realised

I'm not giving the attack coach credit for a good game plan for an 8 fielding a kick and running it back hard and Welsh guys missing tackles or a centre bouncing guys after collecting a bouncing ball.

There was some good stuff but it is too few and far between.

Wales didn't look threatening but we know they're not very good, but they're also missing quite a few players.

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:12 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:02 am

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:52 pm

We've scored two off set piece moves, one of which may have been Finn ad-libing. And didn't look dangerous outwith that v England.

We looked dangerous in brief spells in that first half but alot of it was off broken play busts rather than structured attacking play. We scored 3 in the second half and barely looked like scoring very often in that second half. I lost count the number of times Finn had next to no one outside him.

The discipline is our no.1 problem but we should be be posing a far greater threat consistently than we are. Wales soaked up that second half pretty easily.

The broken play stuff doesn't come out of nowhere, the players are picked to break tackles and/or avoid them, Graham looked dangerous for most of the game. Duhan less so but we didn't manufacture space for him bar one gallop as far as I recall.
Wales didn't look like scoring from open play at any time during that match, their try came from a maul.

I thought we looked threatening when we got a few phases going but we didn't get the breakdown right so that threat was never really realised

I'm not giving the attack coach credit for a good game plan for an 8 fielding a kick and running it back hard and Welsh guys missing tackles or a centre bouncing guys after collecting a bouncing ball.

There was some good stuff but it is too few and far between.

Wales didn't look threatening but we know they're not very good, but they're also missing quite a few players.

I thought where we looked good early on was in building go forward front foot ball off good carries and we managed to replicate that a little bit in the second half but not enough, we got knocked off our stride by giving away too many penalties.

That's the attack I'm talking about, really, not sweeping runs from the backs, though that is what the point of all the endeavour in the carries is for.

As you can tell, after day 8 of isolation and another positive test I'm in a really cheery mood after that today.

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:17 am As you can tell, after day 8 of isolation and another positive test I'm in a really cheery mood after that today.

Good luck with it, I hope the symptoms are mild to non-existent

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:30 am

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:17 am As you can tell, after day 8 of isolation and another positive test I'm in a really cheery mood after that today.

Good luck with it, I hope the symptoms are mild to non-existent

Cheers. Still have a sore chest but at least I'll get out the back bedroom on Monday/Tuesday.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:20 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:09 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:02 pm


This is just negativity gone wild.

I can't be arsed arguing it, but look up the stats of those players today

In sports there's one stat that matters. It's positivity gone wild to celebrate the tackle count in a losing performance.

Did Skinner play better than Basham? No. Did Bradbury play better than Moriarty? No.

There is nuance, I thought Basham was terrific. Bradbury was better than Moriarty, yes.

You just seem to have such a shite time of it all, I wonder why you bother.

I continue because a stupid part of me thought the team might show up and put in a performance this time. That was horrendous, worse than last time when the exact same happened Vs Wales. This team, these coaches. They never learn. That's not "mentality" that's just pish.

To play like they did yesterday is awful. We all can be positive, we all can point to tackle stats (kind of pointless when you're gameplan is kick ball away soak up the pressure, they should be high), we could've all been 'ah lessons learn, good wins,next year'. If not now, or next year when we have our better players in their prime years it's not going to happen. If the high water mark for the Scottish team who could've actually done something is 4th then why/I do we bother I do think that.

As angry as I'll be about Scotland. This isn't even a good Wales team. Team selection, tactics, discipline, mindset all very wrong. Just absolutely pish. Really don't understand what's to be positive in such a poor performance - except Darcy Graham.

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:52 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:14 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:55 pm
If our attacking game was looking sharp but guys kept dropping it then I wouldn't criticise AB Zondagh. However our attack has been woeful.

I don't think it has, last week we took 14 points from terrific moves in a game we played on the back foot for a lot of the time. Today we scored a fantastic try and for the most part of the game when we had possession we looked really good, especially in the first half.
I thought that we looked the far more potent in attack than either team we've faced so far

The discipline has been woeful, not the attack

We've scored two off set piece moves, one of which may have been Finn ad-libing. And didn't look dangerous outwith that v England.

We looked dangerous in brief spells in that first half but alot of it was off broken play busts rather than structured attacking play. We scored 3 in the second half and barely looked like scoring very often in that second half. I lost count the number of times Finn had next to no one outside him.

The discipline is our no.1 problem but we should be be posing a far greater threat consistently than we are. Wales soaked up that second half pretty easily.

This was the point I was making straight after the game. We had some decent 3/4 phase ball but Finn was getting it with no options except another forward bashing it up in midfield. Something was going badly wrong in the midfield - I don’t know what the stats are but Harris seemed to be having to offer himself more as a runner than usual. I’m basically blaming 12 but as I also said earlier, Price seemed off his game as well

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:57 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:09 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:02 pm


This is just negativity gone wild.

I can't be arsed arguing it, but look up the stats of those players today

In sports there's one stat that matters. It's positivity gone wild to celebrate the tackle count in a losing performance.

Did Skinner play better than Basham? No. Did Bradbury play better than Moriarty? No.

I thought Bradbury was our best back row and Skinner our best second row. Which was part of the problem.

I'd be tempted by a Cummings/Skinner second row v France. Gray was miles off it today.

I thought Watson was the best, have to say I didn't notice Bradbury much. Skinner just isn't a backrow - individually he might have played fine but Wales so easily won the breakdown. And Skinner's added size didn't help we lost at the maul, we didn't beat Wales up physically. Why not play a flanker from the start? I don't understand.

Agree about Gray, second game in a row he's been off the pace. Also what a bad time for Gilchrist to turn back into ball dropping, penalty conceding Gilchrist.

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:52 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:14 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:55 pm
If our attacking game was looking sharp but guys kept dropping it then I wouldn't criticise AB Zondagh. However our attack has been woeful.

I don't think it has, last week we took 14 points from terrific moves in a game we played on the back foot for a lot of the time. Today we scored a fantastic try and for the most part of the game when we had possession we looked really good, especially in the first half.
I thought that we looked the far more potent in attack than either team we've faced so far

The discipline has been woeful, not the attack

We've scored two off set piece moves, one of which may have been Finn ad-libing. And didn't look dangerous outwith that v England.

We looked dangerous in brief spells in that first half but alot of it was off broken play busts rather than structured attacking play. We scored 3 in the second half and barely looked like scoring very often in that second half. I lost count the number of times Finn had next to no one outside him.

The discipline is our no.1 problem but we should be be posing a far greater threat consistently than we are. Wales soaked up that second half pretty easily.

Discipline is a 2 headed beast, penalties given away due to pressure being put on by the other team and then the dumb penalties given away for no reason other than the player being dumb (England syndrome). I can understand and even forgive the former, not the latter though. I thought Scotland were under so much pressure at the breakdown that is where their discipline failed. Price was really struggling to get any quick ball, he turned into a bit of a Ben Youngs.

ASMO wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:24 am

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:52 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:14 pm


I don't think it has, last week we took 14 points from terrific moves in a game we played on the back foot for a lot of the time. Today we scored a fantastic try and for the most part of the game when we had possession we looked really good, especially in the first half.
I thought that we looked the far more potent in attack than either team we've faced so far

The discipline has been woeful, not the attack

We've scored two off set piece moves, one of which may have been Finn ad-libing. And didn't look dangerous outwith that v England.

We looked dangerous in brief spells in that first half but alot of it was off broken play busts rather than structured attacking play. We scored 3 in the second half and barely looked like scoring very often in that second half. I lost count the number of times Finn had next to no one outside him.

The discipline is our no.1 problem but we should be be posing a far greater threat consistently than we are. Wales soaked up that second half pretty easily.

Discipline is a 2 headed beast, penalties given away due to pressure being put on by the other team and then the dumb penalties given away for no reason other than the player being dumb (England syndrome). I can understand and even forgive the former, not the latter though. I thought Scotland were under so much pressure at the breakdown that is where their discipline failed. Price was really struggling to get any quick ball, he turned into a bit of a Ben Youngs.

That’s all true. My frustration is that we have the best defence in the competition and didn’t need to give those penalties away. Wales could have still been playing and not scored a try if we were just patient. The only way they were going to score was a penalty or a drive from a lineout off a penalty to touch and we kept giving them those options

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:35 am

ASMO wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:24 am

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:52 pm

We've scored two off set piece moves, one of which may have been Finn ad-libing. And didn't look dangerous outwith that v England.

We looked dangerous in brief spells in that first half but alot of it was off broken play busts rather than structured attacking play. We scored 3 in the second half and barely looked like scoring very often in that second half. I lost count the number of times Finn had next to no one outside him.

The discipline is our no.1 problem but we should be be posing a far greater threat consistently than we are. Wales soaked up that second half pretty easily.

Discipline is a 2 headed beast, penalties given away due to pressure being put on by the other team and then the dumb penalties given away for no reason other than the player being dumb (England syndrome). I can understand and even forgive the former, not the latter though. I thought Scotland were under so much pressure at the breakdown that is where their discipline failed. Price was really struggling to get any quick ball, he turned into a bit of a Ben Youngs.

That’s all true. My frustration is that we have the best defence in the competition and didn’t need to give those penalties away. Wales could have still been playing and not scored a try if we were just patient. The only way they were going to score was a penalty or a drive from a lineout off a penalty to touch and we kept giving them those options

There were a couple I felt the tackler had nowhere to go but there are some outrageously thick penalties. Turner had one and Fagerson near the end were so poor and sadly not unfamiliar.

It is those that Townsend really needs to clamp down on. There has to be consequences. We can't drop Fagerson as their aren't any other suitable THs but Turner may need sat down as 3 penalties in 35min isn't really on.

Two tries conceded effectively from rolling mauls caused by penalties. We are killing ourselves.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:35 am

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:57 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:09 pm

In sports there's one stat that matters. It's positivity gone wild to celebrate the tackle count in a losing performance.

Did Skinner play better than Basham? No. Did Bradbury play better than Moriarty? No.

I thought Bradbury was our best back row and Skinner our best second row. Which was part of the problem.

I'd be tempted by a Cummings/Skinner second row v France. Gray was miles off it today.

I thought Watson was the best, have to say I didn't notice Bradbury much. Skinner just isn't a backrow - individually he might have played fine but Wales so easily won the breakdown. And Skinner's added size didn't help we lost at the maul, we didn't beat Wales up physically. Why not play a flanker from the start? I don't understand.

Agree about Gray, second game in a row he's been off the pace. Also what a bad time for Gilchrist to turn back into ball dropping, penalty conceding Gilchrist.

Yeah Skinner can play back row at club level but not at international level v tier 1 sides. Not his fault to be fair and was the best of the 3 second rows which is damining with faint praise.

Watson has been good in defence but his ball carrying has gone backwards and he isn't really affecting the ruck as often as he has in the past. Granted he was part of a 2 man back row really. I said in the match thread Darge should have been on at half time given how the breakdown was being reffed. We waited too long on that one.

I felt watching it that Bradbury was probably our most physical defender amd carried hard in the few opportunities he got. May be wrong right enough.

Why is anyone surprised?

We knew this was coming. So many 'jokey' posts beforehand but we knew in our heart of hearts this was likely.

This Scotland team is one of the best we have had in a long time in terms of talent. But there still is not the deep down self belief that other sides have. At club and international level we still lose too many games we should have won so the self belief is not there.

We can carp about individual selections all we want, but until that inner belief is developed changing personnel is just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. That game was there to be won by the players on the pitch, and they would have won it if they had the self belief other teams have.

The other issue is lack of consequences. Fagerson gives away far too many brain dead penalties. But there is no one else to pick so there are never any consequences. Turner gave away three in this game, but that is an aberration for him. But he needs to know that if he does that again he is on the naughty step.

Scotland badly need to beat France. There needs to be a mentality that Murrayfield is impregnable. Then that mentality can be extended to away games. We are getting closer, but we are not there yet.

The good news is we all have it wrong.

According to one Titan of rugby journalism we were fantastic, Finn gave us a cutting edge, as did Duhan. Played convincingly throughout, with Gilco and Gray our best players

weegie01 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:36 am Why is anyone surprised?

We knew this was coming. So many 'joky' posts beforehand but we knew in our heart of hearts this was likely.

This Scotland team is one of the best we have had in a long time in terms of talent. But there still is not the deep down self belief that other sides have. At club and international level we still lose too many games we should have won so the self belief is not there.

We can carp about individual selections all we want, but until that inner belief is developed changing personnel is just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. That game was there to be won by the players on the pitch, and they would have won it if they had the self belief other teams have.

The other issue is lack of consequences. Fagerson gives away far too many brain dead penalties. But there is no one else to pick so there are never any consequences. Turner gave away three in this game, but that is an aberration for him. But he needs to know that if he does that again he is on the naughty step.

Scotland badly need to beat France. There needs to be a mentality that Murrayfield is impregnable. Then that mentality can be extended to away games. We are getting closer, but we are not there yet.

Can’t disagree with any of this. The lack of crowds upset the equilibrium (we won away and lost at home last year) but now they are back, winning away in the 6N requires mental resilience that we just don’t have.

We have as much talent in our team now as the other teams do, but the players’ heads are still wrong. If the SRU are employing a sports psychologist (which you would imagine they are) then they need to get a better one.

As for lack of consequences: we do have a lack of depth in some key positions, but even where there’s more, we have a reluctance to drop players who are underperforming. Finn is a case in point - the main challenger for his position has been dropped from the squad entirely.

I hate to say it, but I think we may need a change of coach. Toony has taken us a long way, but we don’t seem to learn anything from games like yesterday.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:06 am

weegie01 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:36 am Why is anyone surprised?

We knew this was coming. So many 'joky' posts beforehand but we knew in our heart of hearts this was likely.

This Scotland team is one of the best we have had in a long time in terms of talent. But there still is not the deep down self belief that other sides have. At club and international level we still lose too many games we should have won so the self belief is not there.

We can carp about individual selections all we want, but until that inner belief is developed changing personnel is just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. That game was there to be won by the players on the pitch, and they would have won it if they had the self belief other teams have.

The other issue is lack of consequences. Fagerson gives away far too many brain dead penalties. But there is no one else to pick so there are never any consequences. Turner gave away three in this game, but that is an aberration for him. But he needs to know that if he does that again he is on the naughty step.

Scotland badly need to beat France. There needs to be a mentality that Murrayfield is impregnable. Then that mentality can be extended to away games. We are getting closer, but we are not there yet.

Can’t disagree with any of this. The lack of crowds upset the equilibrium (we won away and lost at home last year) but now they are back, winning away in the 6N requires mental resilience that we just don’t have.

We have as much talent in our team now as the other teams do, but the players’ heads are still wrong. If the SRU are employing a sports psychologist (which you would imagine they are) then they need to get a better one.

As for lack of consequences: we do have a lack of depth in some key positions, but even where there’s more, we have a reluctance to drop players who are underperforming. Finn is a case in point - the main challenger for his position has been dropped from the squad entirely.

I hate to say it, but I think we may need a change of coach. Toony has taken us a long way, but we don’t seem to learn anything from games like yesterday.

Agree: 2018 collapse Vs Wales, 2019 collapse Vs Ireland out of the world cup after 20 minutes, 2020 - good season (no Russell for the six nations...), 2021 collapse Vs Wales, 2022 collapse Vs Wales.

Either we have a coach who is not preparing the team in the week well enough. Or we have a coach who doesn't know how to stop a yearly no show.

In any case, it's a reflection on coaches now. One no show - it's the players. A yearly no show. It's the coaches.

Would someone like Gatland allow the annual collapse? I say no.

It's strange Townsend's record against England is amazing, his record Vs France very good. Against Ireland it's 0 wins in 6 and against Wales is 1 win in 5. How is it we play well against England and France (France haven't been great until the last year or so but we've beaten them in 3 of the last 4 six nations) but can't buy a win Vs Wales or Ireland? Is it just easier to motivate the team for England and France?

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:06 am

weegie01 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:36 am Why is anyone surprised?

We knew this was coming. So many 'joky' posts beforehand but we knew in our heart of hearts this was likely.

This Scotland team is one of the best we have had in a long time in terms of talent. But there still is not the deep down self belief that other sides have. At club and international level we still lose too many games we should have won so the self belief is not there.

We can carp about individual selections all we want, but until that inner belief is developed changing personnel is just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. That game was there to be won by the players on the pitch, and they would have won it if they had the self belief other teams have.

The other issue is lack of consequences. Fagerson gives away far too many brain dead penalties. But there is no one else to pick so there are never any consequences. Turner gave away three in this game, but that is an aberration for him. But he needs to know that if he does that again he is on the naughty step.

Scotland badly need to beat France. There needs to be a mentality that Murrayfield is impregnable. Then that mentality can be extended to away games. We are getting closer, but we are not there yet.

Can’t disagree with any of this. The lack of crowds upset the equilibrium (we won away and lost at home last year) but now they are back, winning away in the 6N requires mental resilience that we just don’t have.

We have as much talent in our team now as the other teams do, but the players’ heads are still wrong. If the SRU are employing a sports psychologist (which you would imagine they are) then they need to get a better one.

As for lack of consequences: we do have a lack of depth in some key positions, but even where there’s more, we have a reluctance to drop players who are underperforming. Finn is a case in point - the main challenger for his position has been dropped from the squad entirely.

I hate to say it, but I think we may need a change of coach. Toony has taken us a long way, but we don’t seem to learn anything from games like yesterday.

Pardon me for intruding
FFS lads get a grip. It's still a work in progress and boy have you progresses since Townsend took over. You are and will continue to improve despite the odd hiccup!!!
Just remember you could have Eddie JOnes as coach

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:47 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:06 am

weegie01 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:36 am Why is anyone surprised?

We knew this was coming. So many 'joky' posts beforehand but we knew in our heart of hearts this was likely.

This Scotland team is one of the best we have had in a long time in terms of talent. But there still is not the deep down self belief that other sides have. At club and international level we still lose too many games we should have won so the self belief is not there.

We can carp about individual selections all we want, but until that inner belief is developed changing personnel is just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. That game was there to be won by the players on the pitch, and they would have won it if they had the self belief other teams have.

The other issue is lack of consequences. Fagerson gives away far too many brain dead penalties. But there is no one else to pick so there are never any consequences. Turner gave away three in this game, but that is an aberration for him. But he needs to know that if he does that again he is on the naughty step.

Scotland badly need to beat France. There needs to be a mentality that Murrayfield is impregnable. Then that mentality can be extended to away games. We are getting closer, but we are not there yet.

Can’t disagree with any of this. The lack of crowds upset the equilibrium (we won away and lost at home last year) but now they are back, winning away in the 6N requires mental resilience that we just don’t have.

We have as much talent in our team now as the other teams do, but the players’ heads are still wrong. If the SRU are employing a sports psychologist (which you would imagine they are) then they need to get a better one.

As for lack of consequences: we do have a lack of depth in some key positions, but even where there’s more, we have a reluctance to drop players who are underperforming. Finn is a case in point - the main challenger for his position has been dropped from the squad entirely.

I hate to say it, but I think we may need a change of coach. Toony has taken us a long way, but we don’t seem to learn anything from games like yesterday.

Pardon me for intruding
FFS lads get a grip. It's still a work in progress and boy have you progresses since Townsend took over. You are and will continue to improve despite the odd hiccup!!!
Just remember you could have Eddie JOnes as coach

It would be nice to believe that saintk but we had exactly the same hiccup last year and didn't learn or progress.

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:47 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:06 am

weegie01 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:36 am Why is anyone surprised?

We knew this was coming. So many 'joky' posts beforehand but we knew in our heart of hearts this was likely.

This Scotland team is one of the best we have had in a long time in terms of talent. But there still is not the deep down self belief that other sides have. At club and international level we still lose too many games we should have won so the self belief is not there.

We can carp about individual selections all we want, but until that inner belief is developed changing personnel is just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. That game was there to be won by the players on the pitch, and they would have won it if they had the self belief other teams have.

The other issue is lack of consequences. Fagerson gives away far too many brain dead penalties. But there is no one else to pick so there are never any consequences. Turner gave away three in this game, but that is an aberration for him. But he needs to know that if he does that again he is on the naughty step.

Scotland badly need to beat France. There needs to be a mentality that Murrayfield is impregnable. Then that mentality can be extended to away games. We are getting closer, but we are not there yet.

Can’t disagree with any of this. The lack of crowds upset the equilibrium (we won away and lost at home last year) but now they are back, winning away in the 6N requires mental resilience that we just don’t have.

We have as much talent in our team now as the other teams do, but the players’ heads are still wrong. If the SRU are employing a sports psychologist (which you would imagine they are) then they need to get a better one.

As for lack of consequences: we do have a lack of depth in some key positions, but even where there’s more, we have a reluctance to drop players who are underperforming. Finn is a case in point - the main challenger for his position has been dropped from the squad entirely.

I hate to say it, but I think we may need a change of coach. Toony has taken us a long way, but we don’t seem to learn anything from games like yesterday.

Pardon me for intruding
FFS lads get a grip. It's still a work in progress and boy have you progresses since Townsend took over. You are and will continue to improve despite the odd hiccup!!!
Just remember you could have Eddie JOnes as coach

Yes, we have progressed since Toony took over. He has a better win percentage than any previous coach, which tells you something. We’ve gone from high-risk run-it-from-everywhere rugby, to stodgy defensive rugby, to the point where last year we started to think maybe we could find a happy medium between the two. The trouble is that the progress has stalled. We are competitive in most of our games, but we still turn in at least one unacceptable performance in almost every 6N. This isn’t just depressing. It’s a baked-in weakness which until we eliminate it means we will never win a 6N. Wales won last year without being very good, because they were never very bad either. Scotland could have been champions if we had beaten Wales last year, but we still turned in one bad game (v Ireland).

As others have said, a single bad game is on the players, but one every year is on the coach. We turn up against England, France and Australia. We don’t turn up against Wales, Ireland and South Africa, which is why you won’t find a single Scotland supporter who thinks we will make it out of our RWC group. I have the horrible feeling that Toony has taken us as far as he can, and it’s time for someone else to try to fix the self-destructive tendencies that have plagued us for decades.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:55 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:47 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:06 am

Can’t disagree with any of this. The lack of crowds upset the equilibrium (we won away and lost at home last year) but now they are back, winning away in the 6N requires mental resilience that we just don’t have.

We have as much talent in our team now as the other teams do, but the players’ heads are still wrong. If the SRU are employing a sports psychologist (which you would imagine they are) then they need to get a better one.

As for lack of consequences: we do have a lack of depth in some key positions, but even where there’s more, we have a reluctance to drop players who are underperforming. Finn is a case in point - the main challenger for his position has been dropped from the squad entirely.

I hate to say it, but I think we may need a change of coach. Toony has taken us a long way, but we don’t seem to learn anything from games like yesterday.

Pardon me for intruding
FFS lads get a grip. It's still a work in progress and boy have you progresses since Townsend took over. You are and will continue to improve despite the odd hiccup!!!
Just remember you could have Eddie JOnes as coach

Yes, we have progressed since Toony took over. He has a better win percentage than any previous coach, which tells you something. We’ve gone from high-risk run-it-from-everywhere rugby, to stodgy defensive rugby, to the point where last year we started to think maybe we could find a happy medium between the two. The trouble is that the progress has stalled. We are competitive in most of our games, but we still turn in at least one unacceptable performance in almost every 6N. This isn’t just depressing. It’s a baked-in weakness which until we eliminate it means we will never win a 6N. Wales won last year without being very good, because they were never very bad either. Scotland could have been champions if we had beaten Wales last year, but we still turned in one bad game (v Ireland).

As others have said, a single bad game is on the players, but one every year is on the coach. We turn up against England, France and Australia. We don’t turn up against Wales, Ireland and South Africa, which is why you won’t find a single Scotland supporter who thinks we will make it out of our RWC group. I have the horrible feeling that Toony has taken us as far as he can, and it’s time for someone else to try to fix the self-destructive tendencies that have plagued us for decades.

Progress has to be be ongoing.

Have we made much progress in the last three or four years? You can say wins in Wales, England and France but all of those were in empty stadiums.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:08 pm

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:55 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:47 am
Pardon me for intruding
FFS lads get a grip. It's still a work in progress and boy have you progresses since Townsend took over. You are and will continue to improve despite the odd hiccup!!!
Just remember you could have Eddie JOnes as coach

Yes, we have progressed since Toony took over. He has a better win percentage than any previous coach, which tells you something. We’ve gone from high-risk run-it-from-everywhere rugby, to stodgy defensive rugby, to the point where last year we started to think maybe we could find a happy medium between the two. The trouble is that the progress has stalled. We are competitive in most of our games, but we still turn in at least one unacceptable performance in almost every 6N. This isn’t just depressing. It’s a baked-in weakness which until we eliminate it means we will never win a 6N. Wales won last year without being very good, because they were never very bad either. Scotland could have been champions if we had beaten Wales last year, but we still turned in one bad game (v Ireland).

As others have said, a single bad game is on the players, but one every year is on the coach. We turn up against England, France and Australia. We don’t turn up against Wales, Ireland and South Africa, which is why you won’t find a single Scotland supporter who thinks we will make it out of our RWC group. I have the horrible feeling that Toony has taken us as far as he can, and it’s time for someone else to try to fix the self-destructive tendencies that have plagued us for decades.

Progress has to be be ongoing.

Have we made much progress in the last three or four years? You can say wins in Wales, England and France but all of those were in empty stadiums.

That’s the point I was making. The fact that the away wins were without fans present wouldn’t matter if we could have continued that form, but if we’re going to collapse again with full stadia then they will look like outliers.

Here’s the thing though. We could still show real progress in this 6N, but we need to beat France (a big ask) and to properly show up for the match v Ireland. I don’t mind if we lose it, but I want us to be visibly 100% committed and to fight them for every inch. The sort of performance that Ireland and Wales expect from their teams in every Test, home or away. The trouble is that I can’t see us doing either. France will be too classy for us in the end, and we’ll turn in another anaemic performance in Dublin and let them bully us.

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:47 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:06 am

weegie01 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:36 am Why is anyone surprised?

We knew this was coming. So many 'joky' posts beforehand but we knew in our heart of hearts this was likely.

This Scotland team is one of the best we have had in a long time in terms of talent. But there still is not the deep down self belief that other sides have. At club and international level we still lose too many games we should have won so the self belief is not there.

We can carp about individual selections all we want, but until that inner belief is developed changing personnel is just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. That game was there to be won by the players on the pitch, and they would have won it if they had the self belief other teams have.

The other issue is lack of consequences. Fagerson gives away far too many brain dead penalties. But there is no one else to pick so there are never any consequences. Turner gave away three in this game, but that is an aberration for him. But he needs to know that if he does that again he is on the naughty step.

Scotland badly need to beat France. There needs to be a mentality that Murrayfield is impregnable. Then that mentality can be extended to away games. We are getting closer, but we are not there yet.

Can’t disagree with any of this. The lack of crowds upset the equilibrium (we won away and lost at home last year) but now they are back, winning away in the 6N requires mental resilience that we just don’t have.

We have as much talent in our team now as the other teams do, but the players’ heads are still wrong. If the SRU are employing a sports psychologist (which you would imagine they are) then they need to get a better one.

As for lack of consequences: we do have a lack of depth in some key positions, but even where there’s more, we have a reluctance to drop players who are underperforming. Finn is a case in point - the main challenger for his position has been dropped from the squad entirely.

I hate to say it, but I think we may need a change of coach. Toony has taken us a long way, but we don’t seem to learn anything from games like yesterday.

Pardon me for intruding
FFS lads get a grip. It's still a work in progress and boy have you progresses since Townsend took over. You are and will continue to improve despite the odd hiccup!!!
Just remember you could have Eddie JOnes as coach

I agree. There are some very short memories on display here. I’m not saying everything is rosy and these idiot displays are immensely frustrating but we are a very good team

I also think we have received a harsh lesson about the current claim that we have strength in depth. We might have depth but it is more a case of mediocrity in depth. Fagerson and Sutherland are both failing to kick on and look far from Lions. Nel is very much past his best. McInally does not seem to be the player he was prior to his injury and Turner appears to be a brain dead penalty magnet similar to Brown and off course the aforementioned Fagerson.
Both Grey and Gilchrist lack the aggression and carrying ability to be considered any more than solid defenders, but like all our players do not defend with the ferocity of some of the other nations.
Watson is Watson but even he is having to defend so desperately he is failing to have his previous impact at the breakdown.
I'm totally losing faith in Russell. I thought the England game showed a more reassuring presence but too often he only has a negative impact on games.
I also hate some of Townsends selection decisions like dropping Johnson from the squad. Punishing such a solid performer for no particular gain is just wrong.
I think the England result papered over the cracks. Solid defensive display but if Ireland or France had gained so much possession they would have put us to the sword.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:01 pm I also think we have received a harsh lesson about the current claim that we have strength in depth. We might have depth but it is more a case of mediocrity in depth. Fagerson and Sutherland are both failing to kick on and look far from Lions. Nel is very much past his best. McInally does not seem to be the player he was prior to his injury and Turner appears to be a brain dead penalty magnet similar to Brown and off course the aforementioned Fagerson.
Both Grey and Gilchrist lack the aggression and carrying ability to be considered any more than solid defenders, but like all our players do not defend with the ferocity of some of the other nations.
Watson is Watson but even he is having to defend so desperately he is failing to have his previous impact at the breakdown.
I'm totally losing faith in Russell. I thought the England game showed a more reassuring presence but too often he only has a negative impact on games.
I also hate some of Townsends selection decisions like dropping Johnson from the squad. Punishing such a solid performer for no particular gain is just wrong.
I think the England result papered over the cracks. Solid defensive display but if Ireland or France had gained so much possession they would have put us to the sword.

To be fair to us, nobody has all of their players in form at the same time. What we are guilty of is reluctance to drop players when they are underperforming, and likewise a reluctance to promote those who are going well at club level. I firmly believe that you’ll get better results picking someone who is in excellent form but doesn’t fit neatly into your system than someone who is the perfect fit but just isn’t performing.

So: who are the form back rows? Bradbury and Darge. So start them. Watson hasn’t been himself and has done damage from the bench before. Skinner has been the pick of the locks so far and he should be starting as well. Gray has been hugely disappointing recently, and as for Gilchrist, I’ve never really rated him, and every time he has a good game he immediately seems to follow it with a horror show. The front row is harder - we need an alternative to Fagerson but there isn’t one. If the drop-off weren’t so steep I might suggest dropping him for a bit might get him to screw the nut about his discipline. At hooker, Cherry and Ashman have both put in great performances for Scotland in the last year. Would starting Cherry be a big risk?

In the backs, although Finn has all the talent, if we start him then Hastings must be on the bench. We have to have a back-up if he isn’t performing, and he needs to know this. We don’t have a standout at 12 and Redpath is half-fit - who is in form playing 12? Hutchinson. Duhan seems to have second season syndrome - perhaps it’s too much of a risk to drop him, and he was good last week, but maybe consider giving someone else a run-out v Italy?

1. Schoeman
2. Cherry
3. Fagerson
4. Skinner
5. Cummings
6. Christie (Bradbury if Fagerson fit)
7. Darge
8. Bradbury (Fagerson if fit)
9. Price
10. Russell
11. Van der Merwe
12. Hutchinson
13. Harris
14. Graham
15. Hogg

Subs: Sutherland, Turner, Nel, Gray, Watson, White, Hastings, Steyn

Obviously we won’t see this team. But if we were going with form then we might.

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:26 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:47 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:06 am

Can’t disagree with any of this. The lack of crowds upset the equilibrium (we won away and lost at home last year) but now they are back, winning away in the 6N requires mental resilience that we just don’t have.

We have as much talent in our team now as the other teams do, but the players’ heads are still wrong. If the SRU are employing a sports psychologist (which you would imagine they are) then they need to get a better one.

As for lack of consequences: we do have a lack of depth in some key positions, but even where there’s more, we have a reluctance to drop players who are underperforming. Finn is a case in point - the main challenger for his position has been dropped from the squad entirely.

I hate to say it, but I think we may need a change of coach. Toony has taken us a long way, but we don’t seem to learn anything from games like yesterday.

Pardon me for intruding
FFS lads get a grip. It's still a work in progress and boy have you progresses since Townsend took over. You are and will continue to improve despite the odd hiccup!!!
Just remember you could have Eddie JOnes as coach

I agree. There are some very short memories on display here. I’m not saying everything is rosy and these idiot displays are immensely frustrating but we are a very good team

Are we a very good team? Would a very good team be 1 in 5 Vs Wales? 0 in 6 Vs Ireland?

I think we're a very good team Vs England and France. But overall we're probably a good team.

Hastings won't get called up. He's second choice for club now so not showing any real form.

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:09 pm Hastings won't get called up. He's second choice for club now so not showing any real form.

He should be. I don’t really care how he’s playing down south, he’s a class player and we need to have him involved.

This isn’t a dig at Blair but he is not the back up 10 you want on the bench in a game like yesterday and Hastings would have been ideal

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:41 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:09 pm Hastings won't get called up. He's second choice for club now so not showing any real form.

He should be. I don’t really care how he’s playing down south, he’s a class player and we need to have him involved.

This isn’t a dig at Blair but he is not the back up 10 you want on the bench in a game like yesterday and Hastings would have been ideal

In many ways Kinghorn was exactly the type of 10 we needed on the park in the second half. Can challenge the line in a physical way if needbe but also break, has a big boot and is in reasonable form. 12 minutes, 10 of them.with 14 men isn't enough time.

The whole Russell thing is a side show because people like to focus on him. The forwards (mostly) by Price were equally as shite if not more so in some cases, we have a 13 who doesn't see the bigger picture in attack to the point he misses obvious passes when he makes a half break. For whatever reason we don't commit numbers to the breakdown in attack which led to slow static ball.