The future for EV cars?..

[Flockwitt]

I was comparing mains gas to hydrogen. By technology battle I meant between hydrogen and batteries for cars. I know thermal runaway fires is very bad on certain chemistry's. I do think hydrogen has a place in this energy transition and it is hydrogen and electricity+batteries rather than one or the other. I just think cars is one of the cases where batteries will dominate.

Yep, I agree, the hydrogen experimental companies like GM and Toyota have are interesting but they're not going mainstream in the medium term. 2-3 years from now EVs with batteries will be significantly better and safer than now. I'm waiting for that next paradigm shift (hate the term but there you go) before heading into the EV market myself.

Solid state batteries? I'm in a similar position in that I'm planning on waiting a few years. I was wondering if any car companies will shift to lithium iron phosphate batteries as they are less prone to thermal runaway.

Edit: https://techcrunch.com/2021/10/20/tesla ... -globally/

I heard second hand and am insomnia posting here so haven't checked that Tesla has done a ferrous phosphate in China, but they won't ever be mainstream... the energy density is too low and no fast charge.

[shaggy]

I was comparing mains gas to hydrogen. By technology battle I meant between hydrogen and batteries for cars. I know thermal runaway fires is very bad on certain chemistry's. I do think hydrogen has a place in this energy transition and it is hydrogen and electricity+batteries rather than one or the other. I just think cars is one of the cases where batteries will dominate.

Yep, I agree, the hydrogen experimental companies like GM and Toyota have are interesting but they're not going mainstream in the medium term. 2-3 years from now EVs with batteries will be significantly better and safer than now. I'm waiting for that next paradigm shift (hate the term but there you go) before heading into the EV market myself.

Solid state batteries? I'm in a similar position in that I'm planning on waiting a few years. I was wondering if any car companies will shift to lithium iron phosphate batteries as they are less prone to thermal runaway.

Edit: https://techcrunch.com/2021/10/20/tesla ... -globally/

People have different reasons for choosing an EV, however if you really want to make a difference adopting as soon as you can, even if it means compromises, is the right thing to do.

[GogLais]

Plug-in hybrid anyone? I dislike the weight. complexity and cost of having everything needed for two means of propulsion but the flexibility sounds good.

[inactionman]

Plug-in hybrid anyone? I dislike the weight. complexity and cost of having everything needed for two means of propulsion but the flexibility sounds good.

If these were a bit cheaper (Read: were available on more mass market and older cars) I'd go for it. Some limited EV range with option for IC if you need to do a long hop.

Real issue with these is that the legislation as abused - companies bought these to get lower company car tax, knowing most of them would be motorway cars and the whole point of plugin would be lost. This is nothing to do with the cars themselves, which are perfectly fine, just how they've been incentivised - it does unfortunately mean, however that the brands that offer them tend to be the exec shed types - mid/high end BMW, Audi etc - and not the nursery run type of car for which it's more fit for purpose.

(Hybrids are a very good idea anyway, despite the duplication of drive train, as the ability to decouple energy usage from energy creation - well, conversion/transfer from chemical to kinetic via heat - means they are much more efficient than straight IC in urban driving.)

[GogLais]

Plug-in hybrid anyone? I dislike the weight. complexity and cost of having everything needed for two means of propulsion but the flexibility sounds good.

Real issue with these is that the legislation as abused - companies bought these to get lower company car tax, knowing most of them would be motorway cars and the whole point of plugin would be lost. This is nothing to do with the cars themselves, which are perfectly fine, just how they've been incentivised - it does unfortunately mean, however that the brands that offer them tend to be the exec shed types - mid/high end BMW, Audi etc - and not the nursery run type of car for which it's more fit for purpose.

It was just a quick scan without any serious intent but a look at Autotrader backs that up.

[petej]

Plug-in hybrid anyone? I dislike the weight. complexity and cost of having everything needed for two means of propulsion but the flexibility sounds good.

If these were a bit cheaper (Read: were available on more mass market and older cars) I'd go for it. Some limited EV range with option for IC if you need to do a long hop.

Real issue with these is that the legislation as abused - companies bought these to get lower company car tax, knowing most of them would be motorway cars and the whole point of plugin would be lost. This is nothing to do with the cars themselves, which are perfectly fine, just how they've been incentivised - it does unfortunately mean, however that the brands that offer them tend to be the exec shed types - mid/high end BMW, Audi etc - and not the nursery run type of car for which it's more fit for purpose.

(Hybrids are a very good idea anyway, despite the duplication of drive train, as the ability to decouple energy usage from energy creation - well, conversion/transfer from chemical to kinetic via heat - means they are much more efficient than straight IC in urban driving.)

Having driven a BMW 330e as a hire car I really wouldn't. The efficiency was absolutely balls on the long journey. You lose a surprising amount of boot capacity. They exist purely for the tax loop hole.

[GogLais]

Plug-in hybrid anyone? I dislike the weight. complexity and cost of having everything needed for two means of propulsion but the flexibility sounds good.

If these were a bit cheaper (Read: were available on more mass market and older cars) I'd go for it. Some limited EV range with option for IC if you need to do a long hop.

Real issue with these is that the legislation as abused - companies bought these to get lower company car tax, knowing most of them would be motorway cars and the whole point of plugin would be lost. This is nothing to do with the cars themselves, which are perfectly fine, just how they've been incentivised - it does unfortunately mean, however that the brands that offer them tend to be the exec shed types - mid/high end BMW, Audi etc - and not the nursery run type of car for which it's more fit for purpose.

(Hybrids are a very good idea anyway, despite the duplication of drive train, as the ability to decouple energy usage from energy creation - well, conversion/transfer from chemical to kinetic via heat - means they are much more efficient than straight IC in urban driving.)

Having driven a BMW 330e as a hire car I really wouldn't. The efficiency was absolutely balls on the long journey. You lose a surprising amount of boot capacity. They exist purely for the tax loop hole.

That's the balancing act. Like many people most of my individual trips are short but the mileage is in the long ones, to state the bleedin obvious. My Golf lease ends in December and I'm more than likely to stick with petrol (1.4 Bluemotion with all the economy options active returns 60 mpg on motorways).

[average joe]

I would think converting existing infrastructure to accommodate a greener fuel would be a lot easier and cost efficient than building a whole new one for charging/handling batteries. Why reinvent the wheel if one can simply improve on the original?

[bok_viking]

Well when it comes to the safety of batteries, the new BYD Blade battery developed in China looks to be a lot safer than previous EV batteries and does not explode when punctured, can also work under more extreme temperatures and it also apparently take up to 50% less space than the conventional EV batteries. Supposedly there are quite a few car companies that are showing interest in the BYD battery for future models.
It looks like even Tesla has signed an agreement with BYD to use their blade batteries in the Model 3 and Model Y cars, first in the models that are produced in China, rumors are they already ordered about 10GWH of these batteries

[Flockwitt]

https://evreporter.com/byd-blade-batter ... 20runaway.

That's interesting, not that it doesn't explode when punctured, that's the point of the solid state batteries mentioned above, but they've got quite reasonable energy density in LFP at 448 Wh/l. Solid state lithium ion/metal has already left that behind, and expect by time of mass adoption say 2024 to be running at 1000Wh/l though they'll not compete with LFP for cycle life. However you'll note in the specs and commentary they don't discuss charge rate which LFP will lose on big time going forward. You have to be very careful with those kind of articles which often cherry pick.

[petej]

https://evreporter.com/byd-blade-batter ... 20runaway.

That's interesting, not that it doesn't explode when punctured, that's the point of the solid state batteries mentioned above, but they've got quite reasonable energy density in LFP at 448 Wh/l. Solid state lithium ion/metal has already left that behind, and expect by time of mass adoption say 2024 to be running at 1000Wh/l though they'll not compete with LFP for cycle life. However you'll note in the specs and commentary they don't discuss charge rate which LFP will lose on big time going forward. You have to be very careful with those kind of articles which often cherry pick.

Lack of Co and Ni is good as well in LiFePO batteries.

[GogLais]

Drove back from Oxford yesterday. Having paid £1.90/litre I set cruise control to 65 and there’s a long stretch of M6 that has a 60 limit. Result was 70 mpg in my petrol Blue Motion Golf. That’ll do me for the foreseeable future.

[Hal Jordan]

I assume you spent most of that stretch slowly accelerating up to 60 as the engine wheezed asthmatically?

[GogLais]

I assume you spent most of that stretch slowly accelerating up to 60 as the engine wheezed asthmatically?

Well no, I cruised at 60 like everyone else.

[inactionman]

We've had our EV for just over two months and just hit the 1k miles (well, we've done 1k in the car, the car's done more than that) - I've paid to charge it twice in that entire time, for a sum total of just under a fiver.

[inactionman]

I do have an extended in-car crisis every time the indicated range drops below 20 miles though.

[clydecloggie]

Plug-in hybrid anyone? I dislike the weight. complexity and cost of having everything needed for two means of propulsion but the flexibility sounds good.

I've been driving a PHEV for 2 months now. Does ~45 miles on pure electric and then switches to petrol. So far, we've done 1,800 miles of which 83% on electric which means massive savings on petrol.

The basic idea of a PHEV is pretty stupid and we are lugging about a complete ICE while driving electric and vice versa, but I'm surprised so far how much of an EV experience it is. Good thing is that the batteries total just under 18kWh, so can be charged from a normal plug socket in about 7 hours. No need for a home charger or looking for public charging points.

It's a Lynk & Co 01 btw, which is a budget but fully spec'd version of the Volvo XC40 from China (all under the Geely flag, of course); despite its Chinese origin, the build quality is pretty solid.

[inactionman]

Plug-in hybrid anyone? I dislike the weight. complexity and cost of having everything needed for two means of propulsion but the flexibility sounds good.

I've been driving a PHEV for 2 months now. Does ~45 miles on pure electric and then switches to petrol. So far, we've done 1,800 miles of which 83% on electric which means massive savings on petrol.

The basic idea of a PHEV is pretty stupid and we are lugging about a complete ICE while driving electric and vice versa, but I'm surprised so far how much of an EV experience it is. Good thing is that the batteries total just under 18kWh, so can be charged from a normal plug socket in about 7 hours. No need for a home charger or looking for public charging points.

It's a Lynk & Co 01 btw, which is a budget but fully spec'd version of the Volvo XC40 from China (all under the Geely flag, of course); despite its Chinese origin, the build quality is pretty solid.

Our EV is 22kWh, gives around 85 miles. Interesting comparison with the range you're getting - although the Zoe is pretty small and light (ultimately quite tinny) compared to an XC40 equivalent.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

I don't drive that much but it cost me 95 quid to fill my old VW van yesterday so I had a quick look at electric conversions - They are technically quite easy on old VWs due to the rear drive layout.

They seem to start at about 25 grand. Oh well, that's that idea out of the window.

[clydecloggie]

Plug-in hybrid anyone? I dislike the weight. complexity and cost of having everything needed for two means of propulsion but the flexibility sounds good.

I've been driving a PHEV for 2 months now. Does ~45 miles on pure electric and then switches to petrol. So far, we've done 1,800 miles of which 83% on electric which means massive savings on petrol.

The basic idea of a PHEV is pretty stupid and we are lugging about a complete ICE while driving electric and vice versa, but I'm surprised so far how much of an EV experience it is. Good thing is that the batteries total just under 18kWh, so can be charged from a normal plug socket in about 7 hours. No need for a home charger or looking for public charging points.

It's a Lynk & Co 01 btw, which is a budget but fully spec'd version of the Volvo XC40 from China (all under the Geely flag, of course); despite its Chinese origin, the build quality is pretty solid.

Our EV is 22kWh, gives around 85 miles. Interesting comparison with the range you're getting - although the Zoe is pretty small and light (ultimately quite tinny) compared to an XC40 equivalent.

Yeah, ours is by no means an efficient car, quite bulky as well. It's still a huge improvement over our previous ICE car in terms of energy cost.

[Guy Smiley]

I assume you spent most of that stretch slowly accelerating up to 60 as the engine wheezed asthmatically?

Well no, I cruised at 60 like everyone else.

I have a 5th gen Golf 1.4TSi… I can regularly achieve 16-20km/l on any flat stretch at about the same speed and accelerating to 140km/h to overtake is easy.

Wheezing?

Pffft

Fuel price is getting ridiculous though… it’s over $3 l now for 95 and we’re enjoying a fuel excise reduction for now which is due to revert soon.

There are more new EV models hitting the market all the time with some new manufacturers capitalising on the new tech.

By the way… did anyone catch the appearance of the McMurtry Spierling at Goodwood? Holy crap

[Flockwitt]

It's certainly getting there. In a couple of years the solid state batteries, the graphene or silicon replacements for graphite, will all be main stream production. <10 minute charge times in safe vehicles. The high fuel prices will help get this over the line in terms of plant investment.

[TB63]

Still sounds like a milk float!..

[Guy Smiley]

https://www.thebelltowertimes.com/ford- ... vers-rage/

Ford Release Ranger EV – First Battery To Be Fully Charged Off Driver’s Rage

Ford scientists have finally harnessed one of the rawest, most powerful energy sources known to man – the rage of a Ranger driver. With the slogan, “we are putting the batter back into battery”.

In their upcoming EV vehicles, a mere 30 minutes of unadulterated Ranger driver apeshittery can fully charge the battery. Giving the driver over 400km of road-terrorising capabilities.

In the early stages of testing, scientists even noted that the battery could even receive a half charge by one particularly furious encounter. Such as a high-speed tailgate that leads into a traffic light biffo.

We spoke to the brains behind the EV who told The Times it was going to be a gamechanger, adding,

“It was like the first time WA looked at its weather and thought solar power will slap! Well, we looked at our customer base, and instantly we knew that we had access to a seriously powerful source of pent-up rage”

However, we were sceptical about the new product, noting that EV is like kryptonite to the blokey dual cab driver. We asked how they were going to sell such a car to petrol/diesel-heads. A spokesperson for Ford marketing told us,

“That’s a good question and we’ve thought hard about it. What if we told you that the internalised conflicted rage from a Ranger man driving an EV could fully charge your car battery and a month’s worth of your home power needs?”

While an exciting development, some in the scientific community are concerned about Ford “playing God” and comparing it to running a fourby on a mini-nuke. One doubter told The Times,

“We have to ask whether we have the current technological capabilities to properly contain such an energy source. We have serious concerns that a few of these rage-charged EVs are going to blow. The drivers get seriously angry over nothing out there and without an ability to safely deal with such a surge we could see mayhem”

[sefton]

I’ve been looking for a new EV recently, it would be quicker to have a baby.

[GogLais]

How is the cost of running EV looking now? With petrol at about £9.00 a gallon that equates to just over 20p/mile.
Ballpark EV at about 0.5 kWh/mile. I think, could be wrong.
I’m paying 17p/kWh until next year so in the order of halving the fuel cost. But isn’t the real current (pun intended) cost of domestic electricity a lot more than that?

[Torquemada 1420]

I’ve been looking for a new EV recently, it would be quicker to have a baby.

And presumably change your name to Loretta by deed poll?

[yermum]

How is the cost of running EV looking now? With petrol at about £9.00 a gallon that equates to just over 20p/mile.
Ballpark EV at about 0.5 kWh/mile. I think, could be wrong.
I’m paying 17p/kWh until next year so in the order of halving the fuel cost. But isn’t the real current (pun intended) cost of domestic electricity a lot more than that?

we have the octopus 7.5p over night tarrif. just set the car to only charge during this time.

Don't often use it as we have solar panels. we end up using the over night charge during the dark days of winter mainly.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

How is the cost of running EV looking now? With petrol at about £9.00 a gallon that equates to just over 20p/mile.
Ballpark EV at about 0.5 kWh/mile. I think, could be wrong.
I’m paying 17p/kWh until next year so in the order of halving the fuel cost. But isn’t the real current (pun intended) cost of domestic electricity a lot more than that?

we have the octopus 7.5p over night tarrif. just set the car to only charge during this time.

Don't often use it as we have solar panels. we end up using the over night charge during the dark days of winter mainly.

This - overnight tariff.

While it hasn't happened recently, a friend has on two occasions been paid to charge his EV (I think he's with Octopus). There's a lot of wind power coming online in the UK currently and when there's too much wind the price goes down so this is likely to happen more often in future.

[GogLais]

Ok, ta both. I’m locked in with SP until next May so academic at the moment.

[Hal Jordan]

Ok, ta both. I’m locked in with SP until next May so academic at the moment.

My Zoe lease isn't up until August next year and we're test driving an Ioniq 5 this weekend given the wait.

[GogLais]

I’m a half poor pensioner. Next might be a 1.5 petrol Seat Leon, in which I expect to average in the low 50s mpg thanks to OAP driving and no commuting.

[sefton]

I’m a half poor pensioner. Next might be a 1.5 petrol Seat Leon, in which I expect to average in the low 50s mpg thanks to OAP driving and no commuting.

Triple locked gougers.

[GogLais]

I’m a half poor pensioner. Next might be a 1.5 petrol Seat Leon, in which I expect to average in the low 50s mpg thanks to OAP driving and no commuting.

Triple locked gougers.

I know. It’s slightly embarrassing. I should have said pre-used.

[S/Lt_Phillips]

My ev (Kia e-Niro) finally arrived last week, loving it so far, and getting used to the recharging malarkey. My plan is to use local public charging and not get a charger put on the house, but as more and more evs appear, that may have to change. Based on the comments here about having cheaper overnight tariffs, I had a look around, but due to the energy market at the moment, no-one seems to be offering these at the moment. Hopefully if/when I'm looking at getting a charger, these overnight tariffs will be available again.

In the meantime, the public charging seems to be a doddle (and free where I am, at least for now), so the smug-o-meter is quite high (although slightly less so as the diesel price has fallen back a bit). I am having to get used to the idea of recharging much more often that I was used to refuelling (600+ miles per tank of diesel, ~150 miles on the ev if I keep the battery between the recommended 20% and 80%), but hopefully it will just become habit. I'm getting 4.5 miles per kWh easily so far, but it'll be interesting to see what happens to the range in winter when I need to use the heater and also when I strap a canoe to the roof!

I'm hoping that Chargeplace Scotland and Podpoint will be sufficient up here, but for the occasional trip to Englandshire, is it worth signing up to any networks down there? Or just find chargers that take contactless payment? Are they more expensive per unit?

[petej]

Bit disappointed that this is only coming in left hand drive.
https://sonomotors.com/en/sion/
Considering most journeys are short something like that would be great.

[inactionman]

My ev (Kia e-Niro) finally arrived last week, loving it so far, and getting used to the recharging malarkey. My plan is to use local public charging and not get a charger put on the house, but as more and more evs appear, that may have to change. Based on the comments here about having cheaper overnight tariffs, I had a look around, but due to the energy market at the moment, no-one seems to be offering these at the moment. Hopefully if/when I'm looking at getting a charger, these overnight tariffs will be available again.

In the meantime, the public charging seems to be a doddle (and free where I am, at least for now), so the smug-o-meter is quite high (although slightly less so as the diesel price has fallen back a bit). I am having to get used to the idea of recharging much more often that I was used to refuelling (600+ miles per tank of diesel, ~150 miles on the ev if I keep the battery between the recommended 20% and 80%), but hopefully it will just become habit. I'm getting 4.5 miles per kWh easily so far, but it'll be interesting to see what happens to the range in winter when I need to use the heater and also when I strap a canoe to the roof!

I'm hoping that Chargeplace Scotland and Podpoint will be sufficient up here, but for the occasional trip to Englandshire, is it worth signing up to any networks down there? Or just find chargers that take contactless payment? Are they more expensive per unit?

Worth looking at employers - I go into Gogarburn for NWG and the charging at 7KW is free. It's booked out during the day but totally empty when I go to the on-site gym during the evening. I've not paid to charge the car in 3 months.

They had 5 chargers but it looks like they've kitted out the perimeter car parking spots with chargers - I reckon about 300-400 charge points. They're not yet active so I've not used them, I'd anticipate they'll be more than 7kw but not sure if they'll remain free.

I've not had call to use the Edinburgh-provided chargers yet - are you finding it easy to find vacant chargers?

I've also not gone for a home charge point, simply because we missed the boat re the grants and I'm a tight sod. I did by a granny charger for £130 which we can use in a pinch. Also lets us go see family and friends a bit further afield if we can top up battery whilst we're there.

One observation/whinge - there are a few free chargers at shops where the charge points seem continually blocked up by the same cars. I can only assume they are employees of the shops, given most car parks will have time limits, which does frustrate the ambition of having a public infrastructure. It takes the piss a bit given many of these will doubtless have taken grants to fit these points with public use in mind. Mortonhall garden centre, I'm looking at you here. I've never had a problem at tesco in Longstone or Dalkeith or at Sainsburys at Chesser, but these I'm pretty sure don't get above 4KW.

[Tichtheid]

I'm not in the market for a new vehicle yet, but I like the look of the new electric VW camper, they claim a range of 255 miles, you tend to need a stop way before that anyway

https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/electri ... -buzz.html

[Raggs]

Tesco superstores around us all have free charging, fairly sure it's 7kw too.

[inactionman]

I'm not in the market for a new vehicle yet, but I like the look of the new electric VW camper, they claim a range of 255 miles, you tend to need a stop way before that anyway

https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/electri ... -buzz.html

I'm keeping a beady eye on those, although I reckon the camper version will be (relatively speaking, against other EVs) even more eye-wateringly expensive than the California.