NPR

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:30 am**

Yeeb wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:27 am
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:05 am I can't see Tipuric's leadership credentials, really, and he's not even guaranteed his place in the starting side given the competition from Curry, Underhill, Watson, Ritchie...

Itoje is very much a leader. The clapping some of you hate so much is a benefit to his team, not a negative.
Well warren gatland did make tipuric wales Captain so those are credentials of a sort. Has Itoje captained saracens ? A quick google finds plenty of his own claims that he wants to be captain of the lions, he does have a decent self publicity game that I will agree.

Yes, he's captained Saracens. And England U20. And there's plenty of chat in the game about him being the obvious next choice as England captain.

Re the clapping - am sure there are some of his teammates who would rather he stfu and see it as a distraction rather than a benefit.

I'm sure they don't care, especially those who also do the same thing but weirdly don't get the same level of flak for it.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:39 am**

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:30 am
Yeeb wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:27 am
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:05 am I can't see Tipuric's leadership credentials, really, and he's not even guaranteed his place in the starting side given the competition from Curry, Underhill, Watson, Ritchie...

Itoje is very much a leader. The clapping some of you hate so much is a benefit to his team, not a negative.
Well warren gatland did make tipuric wales Captain so those are credentials of a sort. Has Itoje captained saracens ? A quick google finds plenty of his own claims that he wants to be captain of the lions, he does have a decent self publicity game that I will agree.
Yes, he's captained Saracens. And England U20. And there's plenty of chat in the game about him being the obvious next choice as England captain.

Re the clapping - am sure there are some of his teammates who would rather he stfu and see it as a distraction rather than a benefit.
I'm sure they don't care, especially those who also do the same thing but weirdly don't get the same level of flak for it.

Don't know how frequently others do it but I've only ever seen him do it, he was a disgrace against Glasgow.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:44 am**

Literally half the Saracens team does the same thing

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:58 am**

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:44 am Literally half the Saracens team does the same thing

Not exactly a credential for making him a Lions Captain though , or make that behaviour any better. His perceived (by some) petulance at snubbing the runners up medal - not a leadership credential to me.

Ospreys also made tipuric their full time Captain, not as a backup to Brad Barritt

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:05 pm**

And who can argue with the Ospreys success eh

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:09 pm**

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:05 pm And who can argue with the Ospreys success eh

Or their adherence to salary cap

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:11 pm**

The famous Welsh salary cap

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:14 pm**

I suspect the captain role will go to someone players from all nations will support and respect. Narrows it down a little?

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:19 pm**

FWIW Owen Farrell is bookies favourite to be Lions captain, followed by Itoje and AWJ.

Considering Gatland doesn't pick backs as captain and Itoje has never been captain AWJ seems most likely doesn't it.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:24 pm**

dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:14 pm I suspect the captain role will go to someone players from all nations will support and respect. Narrows it down a little?

I can't imagine many tourists won't fit the bill, honestly. There's some shit talked about players that fans don't like but I'd very surprised if any of the top players wouldn't be supported & respected by their peers if made captain.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:26 pm**

New guy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:19 pm FWIW Owen Farrell is bookies favourite to be Lions captain, followed by Itoje and AWJ.

Considering Gatland doesn't pick backs as captain and Itoje has never been captain AWJ seems most likely doesn't it.

Not sure AWJ will make the starting line up with the number of outstanding locks to choose from
Itoje has captained Sarries in the Prem Cup and was England U20 captain when they won the Junior RWC

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:27 pm**

New guy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:19 pm FWIW Owen Farrell is bookies favourite to be Lions captain, followed by Itoje and AWJ.

Considering Gatland doesn't pick backs as captain and Itoje has never been captain AWJ seems most likely doesn't it.

Didn't Itoje captain England's U20 side that won the juinior world cup?, also i would argue the Captain has to be someone who is first name on the team sheet and i cannot see that being AWJ, regardless of his history, he simply isnt in the top 3 or 4 second rows in the 4 nations

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:33 pm**

ASMO wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:27 pm
New guy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:19 pm FWIW Owen Farrell is bookies favourite to be Lions captain, followed by Itoje and AWJ.

Considering Gatland doesn't pick backs as captain and Itoje has never been captain AWJ seems most likely doesn't it.
Didn't Itoje captain England's U20 side that won the juinior world cup?, also i would argue the Captain has to be someone who is first name on the team sheet and i cannot see that being AWJ, regardless of his history, he simply isnt in the top 3 or 4 second rows in the 4 nations

Last time Warburton was tour captain and then not selected for the first Test. It happens.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:34 pm**

No I agree AWJ isn't guaranteed a place in the test team. I dont think that'll stop Gatland though who doesn't normally give a fuck about tradition.

He picked Warburton as captain and then didnt select him for the first test last time remember.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:35 pm**

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:33 pm
ASMO wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:27 pm
New guy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:19 pm FWIW Owen Farrell is bookies favourite to be Lions captain, followed by Itoje and AWJ.

Considering Gatland doesn't pick backs as captain and Itoje has never been captain AWJ seems most likely doesn't it.
Didn't Itoje captain England's U20 side that won the juinior world cup?, also i would argue the Captain has to be someone who is first name on the team sheet and i cannot see that being AWJ, regardless of his history, he simply isnt in the top 3 or 4 second rows in the 4 nations
Last time Warburton was tour captain and then not selected for the first Test. It happens.

Beat me to it.

Seems ridiculous in hindsight that POM was selected over him.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:36 pm**

Wasn't that due to injury? I can't remember. Gatland also has no reason to keep the Welsh happy now.

On the flip side, he's also not involved in B&I rugby any more so perhaps that'll convince him even more to go with what he knows.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:39 pm**

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:36 pm Wasn't that due to injury? I can't remember. Gatland also has no reason to keep the Welsh happy now.

On the flip side, he's also not involved in B&I rugby any more so perhaps that'll convince him even more to go with what he knows.

Not entirely. POM had a really good game against the Crusaders while Warburton only featured in a couple of tour matches and didn't impress.

Then the pack got smashed in the first test and Warburton came back.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:50 pm**

New guy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:39 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:36 pm Wasn't that due to injury? I can't remember. Gatland also has no reason to keep the Welsh happy now.

On the flip side, he's also not involved in B&I rugby any more so perhaps that'll convince him even more to go with what he knows.
Not entirely. POM had a really good game against the Crusaders while Warburton only featured in a couple of tour matches and didn't impress.

Then the pack got smashed in the first test and Warburton came back.

Warburton came into the tour in his perpetual state of 'injured', didn't play too well in the warmups and then didn't get selected for the Test. So injury played a part but he was fit for the Test.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:55 pm**

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:30 am
Yeeb wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:27 am
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:05 am I can't see Tipuric's leadership credentials, really, and he's not even guaranteed his place in the starting side given the competition from Curry, Underhill, Watson, Ritchie...

Itoje is very much a leader. The clapping some of you hate so much is a benefit to his team, not a negative.
Well warren gatland did make tipuric wales Captain so those are credentials of a sort. Has Itoje captained saracens ? A quick google finds plenty of his own claims that he wants to be captain of the lions, he does have a decent self publicity game that I will agree.
Yes, he's captained Saracens. And England U20. And there's plenty of chat in the game about him being the obvious next choice as England captain.

Re the clapping - am sure there are some of his teammates who would rather he stfu and see it as a distraction rather than a benefit.
I'm sure they don't care, especially those who also do the same thing but weirdly don't get the same level of flak for it.

Oh come on, he was on a different level. Anyway, from what I have seen before all this he seems to have stopped it pretty much and, I think, was playing even better for it.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:08 pm**

New guy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:34 pm No I agree AWJ isn't guaranteed a place in the test team. I dont think that'll stop Gatland though who doesn't normally give a fuck about tradition.

He picked Warburton as captain and then didnt select him for the first test last time remember.

Until he realised that was an error and threw 1 tackle POM out

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:16 pm**

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:55 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:30 am
Yeeb wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:27 am

Well warren gatland did make tipuric wales Captain so those are credentials of a sort. Has Itoje captained saracens ? A quick google finds plenty of his own claims that he wants to be captain of the lions, he does have a decent self publicity game that I will agree.
Yes, he's captained Saracens. And England U20. And there's plenty of chat in the game about him being the obvious next choice as England captain.

Re the clapping - am sure there are some of his teammates who would rather he stfu and see it as a distraction rather than a benefit.
I'm sure they don't care, especially those who also do the same thing but weirdly don't get the same level of flak for it.
Oh come on, he was on a different level. Anyway, from what I have seen before all this he seems to have stopped it pretty much and, I think, was playing even better for it.

It's exactly the sort of thing that opposition fans like to get angry about that doesn't matter in the slightest

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:23 pm**

It does matter and plenty of home supporters didn't like it either.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:39 pm**

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:23 pm It does matter and plenty of home supporters didn't like it either.

Another way of looking at it (for those that played) is how that sort of behaviour gets thought of at lower grass roots level: most clubs have overtly loud / obnoxious / “we hate these cunts!” Kind of fire and brimstone blowhards who delight in mocking the opposition (not necessarily clapping which I’ve not really personally seen) - and they are almost universally disliked by their own players as well as opposition. How he has the energy to whoop and holler I don’t know.

A curt nod / well done lad / pat on shoulder is fine, or even a plaintive ‘lads you’ve gotta make these tackles’ after you convene under the posts after a score - is ok captaincy as is staying on the refs good side. Waving your hands around and yelling at South Africans - nah.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:44 pm**

So you reckon the England boys - who've played against Maro more than anyone else - hate his guts, don't respect him, and don't follow his lead?

Interesting theory.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:55 pm**

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:44 pm So you reckon the England boys - who've played against Maro more than anyone else - hate his guts, don't respect him, and don't follow his lead?

Interesting theory.

I never said any of that: but A. It’s not just an England tour we are talking about , and B. It’s still not really anything that advances his Captain candidacy. You can follow someone’s lead by playing well, and not clapping and being a petulant sore loser.

Interesting you don’t mind his hand movements / bad sportsmanship / gamesmanship yet do mind Exeter fans hand movements.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:57 pm**

Yeeb wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:55 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:44 pm So you reckon the England boys - who've played against Maro more than anyone else - hate his guts, don't respect him, and don't follow his lead?

Interesting theory.
I never said any of that: but A. It’s not just an England tour we are talking about , and B. It’s still not really anything that advances his Captain candidacy. You can follow someone’s lead by playing well, and not clapping and being a petulant sore loser. The difference being him and say POC and Johnson in terms of leadership and leading by example, his noticeable.

Interesting you don’t mind his hand movements / bad sportsmanship / gamesmanship yet do mind Exeter fans hand movements.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:57 pm**

Quoted myself there - post fail train

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:08 pm**

Yeeb wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:55 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:44 pm So you reckon the England boys - who've played against Maro more than anyone else - hate his guts, don't respect him, and don't follow his lead?

Interesting theory.
I never said any of that: but A. It’s not just an England tour we are talking about , and B. It’s still not really anything that advances his Captain candidacy. You can follow someone’s lead by playing well, and not clapping and being a petulant sore loser.

Interesting you don’t mind his hand movements / bad sportsmanship / gamesmanship yet do mind Exeter fans hand movements.

Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:36 pm**

I am sure I will manage somehow

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:00 pm**

There really aren't that many candidates for captain

Farrell - not sure to start and a back
Itoje - inexperienced as a captain and a twat
AWJ - probably past it
Tipuric - not sure to start
Sexton - unlikely to tour and past it
Ryan - not sure if he has captaincy experience
Hogg - fullback

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:03 pm**

How do Farrell, Hogg, and Sexton avoid the "is a twat" label?

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:07 pm**

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:03 pm How do Farrell, Hogg, and Sexton avoid the "is a twat" label?

Varying degrees of twattery?

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:12 pm**

It's Warren G - it'll be Jones.

Also: it's Jones, it will be Jones.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:05 pm**

And 1 guest wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:00 pm There really aren't that many candidates for captain

Farrell - not sure to start and a back
Itoje - inexperienced as a captain and a twat
AWJ - probably past it
Tipuric - not sure to start
Sexton - unlikely to tour and past it
Ryan - not sure if he has captaincy experience
Hogg - fullback

Oh for the days where the Lions would rock up with Warburton, POC, AWJ and BOD in the test team.

Now our best candidate is a guy who's quite good at smirking.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:13 pm**

dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:14 pm I suspect the captain role will go to someone players from all nations will support and respect. Narrows it down a little?

So you're say Warbs is coming out of retirement?

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:15 pm**

Since it's Gats, my money is on AWJ, with his experience being the touted reason. Being pragmatic I reckon Gats will then let it'll fall to Farrell once AWJ gets subbed off.

Posted: **Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:13 am**

Aside from whatever other leadership attributes he has (in consideration of the current climate) I could see a case being made for Itoje on the basis of him being the first black Lions captain. Especially given that it is a tour to Africa.

It would generate the sort of publicity and goodwill that sports administrators love. Inclusivity and diversity are considered all important in 21st century sport, with good reason.

Posted: **Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:14 am**

And 1 guest wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:07 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:03 pm How do Farrell, Hogg, and Sexton avoid the "is a twat" label?
Varying degrees of twattery?

Just whataboutery to be honest, the fact that Itoje comes across as a cock is not in anyway lessened by the fact that Farrell et al are cocks. A talented player he may be but comes across as a bellend.

For what it's worth, I also detest the behavior of football infiltrating rugby and mocking your opponent by joining in celebrations or faux-applauding refereeing decisions is the start of a slipper slope, in my view. Not that Itoje is the only offender but his stature within the game means that he (deservedly) gets special attention over his conduct, as do the Farrells or Ashtons of the world.

Posted: **Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:24 am**

Caley_Red wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:14 am
And 1 guest wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:07 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:03 pm How do Farrell, Hogg, and Sexton avoid the "is a twat" label?
Varying degrees of twattery?
Just whataboutery to be honest, the fact that Itoje comes across as a cock is not in anyway lessened by the fact that Farrell et al are cocks. A talented player he may be but comes across as a bellend.

For what it's worth, I also detest the behavior of football infiltrating rugby and mocking your opponent by joining in celebrations or faux-applauding refereeing decisions is the start of a slipper slope, in my view. Not that Itoje is the only offender but his stature within the game means that he (deservedly) gets special attention over his conduct, as do the Farrells or Ashtons of the world.

Does he actually do any of that though?

Yes, his clapping is a touch annoying, but I honestly can't remember him faux applauding the ref or mocking opponents (my memory may have failed me). There's an army of head slappers out there who don't seem to pick up anything like the same level of vitriol.

Posted: **Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:04 am**

There is one famous example of him ending up among the opposition and essentially mocking them, yeah.

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