NPR

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:25 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:13 pm

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 9:54 pm

Ok, we're doing a post truth thing. Gotcha.

Christ alive this is insufferable even for you. The entire point was that no, Ireland aren't getting this just because they're good. They've been getting this criticism for years before they were any good. Whether the complaints are true or not are a) irrelevant to that point and b) of no interest to me. Go back and look at every reply you've made - it's been deliberate misunderstanding and misquoting from the get go.

Ireland have been good for the timeframe you suggested. I was just getting confirmation to the period.

There has been a massive increase in having a go at Ireland over the last two years though. Maybe you're not noticing as much with the glacial pace of this place. Prior to that it was more targeted at the provinces rather than the national team. First Munster when they were winning and then Leinster.

I can't help you if you haven't noticed that bias increases towards a team in proportion to the success they're having.

"Ireland have been good since the days of Alan Quinlan" is an incredible take

If it helps, I've thought the Irish both try and indeed get away with more at the breakdown than any of the other Six Nations teams since at least 2004. Why wouldn't you if it mostly works?

We used to hear a lot of whinge about Barnes in the not so distant past, they hated how clean he used to insist on the breakdown being. Now that he's relaxed a bit in that area, after spending altogether too much time with his Celtic and French counterparts, he gets much less criticism from them.

Am I the only one getting sick of international rugby?

If you win, the opposition fans generally claim that they've been shafted by the ref. When you lose, sections of your fans claim the ref shafted you. Discussions on these boards post match beyween opposing fans seems to generally revolve around refs, not tactics or which players did well/shit.

Rugby needs to either minimise the influence refs can have on games by having clearer rules, or I think I'm out.

I only started watching rugby properly around 01 as a 12 year old, and the sheer amount of bitching and whinging by fans now compared to the early days of pro rugby is stark. The Kiwis are to blame for throwing Barnes under the bus because they shit the bed in 07, and its all been downhill since.

I don't think its as apparent at club level as the stakes are not.as high. Unless, of course, someone has the audacity to beat Leinster.

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 5:46 am Am I the only one getting sick of international rugby?

If you win, the opposition fans generally claim that they've been shafted by the ref. When you lose, sections of your fans claim the ref shafted you. Discussions on these boards post match beyween opposing fans seems to generally revolve around refs, not tactics or which players did well/shit.

Rugby needs to either minimise the influence refs can have on games by having clearer rules, or I think I'm out.

I only started watching rugby properly around 01 as a 12 year old, and the sheer amount of bitching and whinging by fans now compared to the early days of pro rugby is stark. The Kiwis are to blame for throwing Barnes under the bus because they shit the bed in 07, and its all been downhill since.

I don't think its as apparent at club level as the stakes are not.as high. Unless, of course, someone has the audacity to beat Leinster.

Let's be clear the Irish Technique at the ruck is old hat now and getting old with other nations. Time for a crack down .

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 5:46 am Am I the only one getting sick of international rugby?

If you win, the opposition fans generally claim that they've been shafted by the ref. When you lose, sections of your fans claim the ref shafted you. Discussions on these boards post match beyween opposing fans seems to generally revolve around refs, not tactics or which players did well/shit.

Rugby needs to either minimise the influence refs can have on games by having clearer rules, or I think I'm out.

I only started watching rugby properly around 01 as a 12 year old, and the sheer amount of bitching and whinging by fans now compared to the early days of pro rugby is stark. The Kiwis are to blame for throwing Barnes under the bus because they shit the bed in 07, and its all been downhill since.

I don't think its as apparent at club level as the stakes are not.as high. Unless, of course, someone has the audacity to beat Leinster.

I'm with you on this up to a point, first I'd say that if one wanted to provoke a reaction on a rugby board one would choose a topic that is known to be a sensitive one and pick at it like a scab - in that respect Slick has played a blinder, he was on a wind up as far as I could see - he knew exactly what reaction he was going to get if he chose his words carefully, as he said himself it was too easy.
Sandstorm's comment were funny, but in the same vein, just done differently.

The old days of the Magners and Pro 12 were almost funny in terms of things that went on - losing reverse angle cameras to highlight shenanigans in Musgrave Park, crazy decisions in the RDS, the crowd booing at Ravenhill and Connacht even getting shafted at the Sportsground - don't get me wrong, the Italian sides got it in Edinburgh and Glasgow, as did Connacht and the Dragons.

Overall I think referees have become much better in the last ten years or so, I react like blazes during a game when I see a mistake or bias against my teams, however when I look at the match again I can see as many incident going in our favour or I can see what the ref was getting at in the first place - there are even times when I see they got it wrong against my side all along.

The trick, I think, is to remember that whilst it's a professional game, it's still only a game, not to be taken too seriously

For the record, I think rugby has always been about getting away with as much as you can, the more successful teams probably do get away with more, in the pro game the coaches have always been half a step in front of the legislators.

However, winning is not about cheating, that is far too reductive, the better teams usually win the penalty count because of the pressure they exert. Ireland aren't winning because of the referees, Ireland are winning because of their decision making especially when under pressure and because of their accuracy and execution across every area of the game.

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 5:46 am Am I the only one getting sick of international rugby?

If you win, the opposition fans generally claim that they've been shafted by the ref. When you lose, sections of your fans claim the ref shafted you. Discussions on these boards post match beyween opposing fans seems to generally revolve around refs, not tactics or which players did well/shit.

Rugby needs to either minimise the influence refs can have on games by having clearer rules, or I think I'm out.

I only started watching rugby properly around 01 as a 12 year old, and the sheer amount of bitching and whinging by fans now compared to the early days of pro rugby is stark. The Kiwis are to blame for throwing Barnes under the bus because they shit the bed in 07, and its all been downhill since.

I don't think its as apparent at club level as the stakes are not.as high. Unless, of course, someone has the audacity to beat Leinster.

What a croc, the International game is the zenith of the sport
Regarding officiating the URC is such a shockingly poorly officiated competition that people laugh at the matches and don't bother complaining.

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:25 pm

There has been a massive increase in having a go at Ireland over the last two years though.

They're there to be shot at now. If they don't like it get off the pedestal. And in truth there'll be plenty of praise too

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 6:58 am

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 5:46 am Am I the only one getting sick of international rugby?

If you win, the opposition fans generally claim that they've been shafted by the ref. When you lose, sections of your fans claim the ref shafted you. Discussions on these boards post match beyween opposing fans seems to generally revolve around refs, not tactics or which players did well/shit.

Rugby needs to either minimise the influence refs can have on games by having clearer rules, or I think I'm out.

I only started watching rugby properly around 01 as a 12 year old, and the sheer amount of bitching and whinging by fans now compared to the early days of pro rugby is stark. The Kiwis are to blame for throwing Barnes under the bus because they shit the bed in 07, and its all been downhill since.

I don't think its as apparent at club level as the stakes are not.as high. Unless, of course, someone has the audacity to beat Leinster.

I'm with you on this up to a point, first I'd say that if one wanted to provoke a reaction on a rugby board one would choose a topic that is known to be a sensitive one and pick at it like a scab - in that respect Slick has played a blinder, he was on a wind up as far as I could see - he knew exactly what reaction he was going to get if he chose his words carefully, as he said himself it was too easy.
Sandstorm's comment were funny, but in the same vein, just done differently.

The old days of the Magners and Pro 12 were almost funny in terms of things that went on - losing reverse angle cameras to highlight shenanigans in Musgrave Park, crazy decisions in the RDS, the crowd booing at Ravenhill and Connacht even getting shafted at the Sportsground - don't get me wrong, the Italian sides got it in Edinburgh and Glasgow, as did Connacht and the Dragons.

Overall I think referees have become much better in the last ten years or so, I react like blazes during a game when I see a mistake or bias against my teams, however when I look at the match again I can see as many incident going in our favour or I can see what the ref was getting at in the first place - there are even times when I see they got it wrong against my side all along.

The trick, I think, is to remember that whilst it's a professional game, it's still only a game, not to be taken too seriously

For the record, I think rugby has always been about getting away with as much as you can, the more successful teams probably do get away with more, in the pro game the coaches have always been half a step in front of the legislators.

However, winning is not about cheating, that is far too reductive, the better teams usually win the penalty count because of the pressure they exert. Ireland aren't winning because of the referees, Ireland are winning because of their decision making especially when under pressure and because of their accuracy and execution across every area of the game.

Its not the trolling that bothers me tbf. It is what it is, some lads get their kicks from it and kudos to them if they are into it.

Its the lack of genuine discussion around tactics or introspection amongst supporters as to why their team got beaten. I think its a general dumbing down of the rugby watching population.

"Oh, we have Barnes reffing us this week. FFS he always shafts us." Team gets beaten. "I fucking told ye's! Barnes is a massive karnt."

Never mind that the team itself has ran down blind allies all game and gotten turned over more often that not due to their shit decision making, or that they've been kicking for position but haven't been able to compete on opposition lineout ball, or they've been too slow to attack the opposition ruck and blame the other team for sealing off every time etc.

Its not even on online forums, which tbf will always have the extreme opinions. Im on a few Whatsapp groups where there'll be plenty of ref bitching after games.

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 7:24 am


Its not the trolling that bothers me tbf. It is what it is, some lads get their kicks from it and kudos to them if they are into it.

Its the lack of genuine discussion around tactics or introspection amongst supporters as to why their team got beaten. I think its a general dumbing down of the rugby watching population.

"Oh, we have Barnes reffing us this week. FFS he always shafts us." Team gets beaten. "I fucking told ye's! Barnes is a massive karnt."

Never mind that the team itself has ran down blind allies all game and gotten turned over more often that not due to their shit decision making, or that they've been kicking for position but haven't been able to compete on opposition lineout ball, or they've been too slow to attack the opposition ruck and blame the other team for sealing off every time etc.

Its not even on online forums, which tbf will always have the extreme opinions. Im on a few Whatsapp groups where there'll be plenty of ref bitching after games.

To be fair I read a fair bit from the English posters on here on tactics, selection and general matters about the state of the game in England, same for the Scottish thread, but yeah, the internet has become a vicious place right enough, Twitter can be toxic (I only read about trad music and a few other things on there, trees and woodworking)

laurent wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 6:45 am

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 5:46 am Am I the only one getting sick of international rugby?

If you win, the opposition fans generally claim that they've been shafted by the ref. When you lose, sections of your fans claim the ref shafted you. Discussions on these boards post match beyween opposing fans seems to generally revolve around refs, not tactics or which players did well/shit.

Rugby needs to either minimise the influence refs can have on games by having clearer rules, or I think I'm out.

I only started watching rugby properly around 01 as a 12 year old, and the sheer amount of bitching and whinging by fans now compared to the early days of pro rugby is stark. The Kiwis are to blame for throwing Barnes under the bus because they shit the bed in 07, and its all been downhill since.

I don't think its as apparent at club level as the stakes are not.as high. Unless, of course, someone has the audacity to beat Leinster.

Let's be clear the Irish Technique at the ruck is old hat now and getting old with other nations. Time for a crack down .

Go on then - explain what the "Irish Technique" is to me and how its so different to what every other team is doing?

Players do what the refs let them get away with, and I'm with you that its fucking annoying and ruining the game, but every fucking side is at it and to just single out Ireland is complete horseshit!


Tichtheid, I'd buy that about Slick if he didn't have form. He's gone on some truly epic vitriolic rants in the past, especially in the wake of a Scottish side losing to an Irish side. He's just a nasty piece of shit!

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:50 pm

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:25 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:13 pm

Christ alive this is insufferable even for you. The entire point was that no, Ireland aren't getting this just because they're good. They've been getting this criticism for years before they were any good. Whether the complaints are true or not are a) irrelevant to that point and b) of no interest to me. Go back and look at every reply you've made - it's been deliberate misunderstanding and misquoting from the get go.

Ireland have been good for the timeframe you suggested. I was just getting confirmation to the period.

There has been a massive increase in having a go at Ireland over the last two years though. Maybe you're not noticing as much with the glacial pace of this place. Prior to that it was more targeted at the provinces rather than the national team. First Munster when they were winning and then Leinster.

I can't help you if you haven't noticed that bias increases towards a team in proportion to the success they're having.

"Ireland have been good since the days of Alan Quinlan" is an incredible take

Well, actually that points to you thinking of Munster more than Ireland as Quinlan was rarely first choice for Ireland with only 11 starts over a 9 year Irish career. He wasn't even picked for the Lions off Irish form.

There was also a 5 year gap between Quinlan and POM for Ireland but they overlapped at Munster so are you sure you didn't meant Munster not Ireland?

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:05 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:50 pm

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:25 pm

Ireland have been good for the timeframe you suggested. I was just getting confirmation to the period.

There has been a massive increase in having a go at Ireland over the last two years though. Maybe you're not noticing as much with the glacial pace of this place. Prior to that it was more targeted at the provinces rather than the national team. First Munster when they were winning and then Leinster.

I can't help you if you haven't noticed that bias increases towards a team in proportion to the success they're having.

"Ireland have been good since the days of Alan Quinlan" is an incredible take

Well, actually that points to you thinking of Munster more than Ireland as Quinlan was rarely first choice for Ireland with only 11 starts over a 9 year Irish career. He wasn't even picked for the Lions off Irish form.

There was also a 5 year gap between Quinlan and POM for Ireland but they overlapped at Munster so are you sure you didn't meant Munster not Ireland?

Oh my god

I hadn't realised you wanted me to produce a dossier of every player who raised the hackles of opposition supporters when I was giving you some idea of how far back this goes

Sorry, I call bullshit JMK. You extrapolated from Munster, who did get a lot of flak when they were at the top of their game, to Ireland. It's the only reason Quinlan would make sense. A guy who has one cap off the bench against England in his entire career and 7 starts over 9 years against top tier opposition, only 3 of them in the 6N.

PornDog wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 8:52 am

laurent wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 6:45 am

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 5:46 am Am I the only one getting sick of international rugby?

If you win, the opposition fans generally claim that they've been shafted by the ref. When you lose, sections of your fans claim the ref shafted you. Discussions on these boards post match beyween opposing fans seems to generally revolve around refs, not tactics or which players did well/shit.

Rugby needs to either minimise the influence refs can have on games by having clearer rules, or I think I'm out.

I only started watching rugby properly around 01 as a 12 year old, and the sheer amount of bitching and whinging by fans now compared to the early days of pro rugby is stark. The Kiwis are to blame for throwing Barnes under the bus because they shit the bed in 07, and its all been downhill since.

I don't think its as apparent at club level as the stakes are not.as high. Unless, of course, someone has the audacity to beat Leinster.

Let's be clear the Irish Technique at the ruck is old hat now and getting old with other nations. Time for a crack down .

Go on then - explain what the "Irish Technique" is to me and how its so different to what every other team is doing?

Players do what the refs let them get away with, and I'm with you that its fucking annoying and ruining the game, but every fucking side is at it and to just single out Ireland is complete horseshit!


Tichtheid, I'd buy that about Slick if he didn't have form. He's gone on some truly epic vitriolic rants in the past, especially in the wake of a Scottish side losing to an Irish side. He's just a nasty piece of shit!

Dear god, I really am in your head

Is your point that people always gave out about the niggly annoying loose forward?

He got caught doing incredibly stupid shit all the time as well (pulling McCaw's leg ended his Ireland career), but rugby being rugby he got away with a lot of shit too!

While he was I think a special case, there are plenty of other players in the mold from all countries.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:11 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:05 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:50 pm

"Ireland have been good since the days of Alan Quinlan" is an incredible take

Well, actually that points to you thinking of Munster more than Ireland as Quinlan was rarely first choice for Ireland with only 11 starts over a 9 year Irish career. He wasn't even picked for the Lions off Irish form.

There was also a 5 year gap between Quinlan and POM for Ireland but they overlapped at Munster so are you sure you didn't meant Munster not Ireland?

Oh my god

I hadn't realised you wanted me to produce a dossier of every player who raised the hackles of opposition supporters when I was giving you some idea of how far back this goes

You mean you don't possess such data?
I am disappoint.

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:30 am Sorry, I call bullshit JMK. You extrapolated from Munster, who did get a lot of flak when they were at the top of their game, to Ireland. It's the only reason Quinlan would make sense. A guy who has one cap off the bench against England in his entire career and 7 starts over 9 years against top tier opposition, only 3 of them in the 6N.

Fucking hell CM11, you can "call bullshit" all you like but you're going incredibly overboard about this. Quinlan, to me, was part of the time period when Ireland started getting flak for their approach to the breakdown. That's it! POM represents the archetypal "how the fuck does he keep getting away with that?" but given this is all about a team approach and not individuals there's only so much use you can get argue over individuals. Even ones who don't play often again my team, because - and this will be a shock, I'm sure - Quinlan has 27 caps and I'm fairly sure I've seen him play the majority of those.

Unless you think I'm claiming that any Ireland team not featuring those two was not going to be a lightning rod for complaints over the breakdown, you're going to have to grasp the fact that you asked me for a time period and I gave you one in terms of player careers. It does not require either of them to actually be in any given match.

On the Munster point: given that Ireland has exactly two teams that directly impact the national side in a meaningful way it's daft to pretend that there's never been any Munster (or Leinster) influence on how the national side approaches the breakdown, and how opposition fans respond as a result. I'd go as far to say that if Munster & Leinster were never part of European competition, Ireland would've received 5% of the complaints - you cannot separate these sides from the national team and people are already primed to expect what they perceive as bullshit.


And that is the last I have to say on this because you are going absolutely tonto over a very, very simple point: that I disagree that Ireland are only getting complaints over perceived breakdown offences because they're good. I know for a fact that "Irish teams <yes, including the national side AND the provincial sides> get away with murder at the breakdown" has been a point of contention on PR for a very, very long time. Beyond any other team except NZ.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:51 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:11 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:05 am

Well, actually that points to you thinking of Munster more than Ireland as Quinlan was rarely first choice for Ireland with only 11 starts over a 9 year Irish career. He wasn't even picked for the Lions off Irish form.

There was also a 5 year gap between Quinlan and POM for Ireland but they overlapped at Munster so are you sure you didn't meant Munster not Ireland?

Oh my god

I hadn't realised you wanted me to produce a dossier of every player who raised the hackles of opposition supporters when I was giving you some idea of how far back this goes

You mean you don't possess such data?
I am disappoint.

It's just a one-page printout of THE ISLAND OF IRELAND with "CUNTS" scribbled on it in angry red crayon

PornDog wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 8:52 am

laurent wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 6:45 am

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 5:46 am Am I the only one getting sick of international rugby?

If you win, the opposition fans generally claim that they've been shafted by the ref. When you lose, sections of your fans claim the ref shafted you. Discussions on these boards post match beyween opposing fans seems to generally revolve around refs, not tactics or which players did well/shit.

Rugby needs to either minimise the influence refs can have on games by having clearer rules, or I think I'm out.

I only started watching rugby properly around 01 as a 12 year old, and the sheer amount of bitching and whinging by fans now compared to the early days of pro rugby is stark. The Kiwis are to blame for throwing Barnes under the bus because they shit the bed in 07, and its all been downhill since.

I don't think its as apparent at club level as the stakes are not.as high. Unless, of course, someone has the audacity to beat Leinster.

Let's be clear the Irish Technique at the ruck is old hat now and getting old with other nations. Time for a crack down .

Go on then - explain what the "Irish Technique" is to me and how its so different to what every other team is doing?

Players do what the refs let them get away with, and I'm with you that its fucking annoying and ruining the game, but every fucking side is at it and to just single out Ireland is complete horseshit!


Tichtheid, I'd buy that about Slick if he didn't have form. He's gone on some truly epic vitriolic rants in the past, especially in the wake of a Scottish side losing to an Irish side. He's just a nasty piece of shit!

Tackling and holding players beyond the ruck in offense flopping on the tackled player in defense and never rolling away.

I'd go as far to say that if Munster & Leinster were never part of European competition, Ireland would've received 5% of the complaints - you cannot separate these sides from the national team and people are already primed to expect what they perceive as bullshit.

You see, with every post you prove my point even more.

laurent wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:06 am

PornDog wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 8:52 am

laurent wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 6:45 am
Let's be clear the Irish Technique at the ruck is old hat now and getting old with other nations. Time for a crack down .

Go on then - explain what the "Irish Technique" is to me and how its so different to what every other team is doing?

Players do what the refs let them get away with, and I'm with you that its fucking annoying and ruining the game, but every fucking side is at it and to just single out Ireland is complete horseshit!


Tichtheid, I'd buy that about Slick if he didn't have form. He's gone on some truly epic vitriolic rants in the past, especially in the wake of a Scottish side losing to an Irish side. He's just a nasty piece of shit!

Tackling and holding players beyond the ruck in offense flopping on the tackled player in defense and never rolling away.

You're having a laugh if you don't think every team does this but we've gotten squeaky clean on the rolling away, more so than other sides, ever since Barnes kept fúcking us over for doing it years ago.

Again, you think every ref keeps on missing this stuff for us and not others despite it being so ingrained that it would be part of their briefing to look out for?

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:08 am

I'd go as far to say that if Munster & Leinster were never part of European competition, Ireland would've received 5% of the complaints - you cannot separate these sides from the national team and people are already primed to expect what they perceive as bullshit.

You see, with every post you prove my point even more.

But it's the same players from Leinster and Munster - that also play for Ireland - that are doing it!! Doris, VDF, Beirne, Conan, Henderson, Furlong, etc. All guilty and doing it knowingly.

I heard Jean Klein told the Boks what he was doing as soon as he got off the plane!! Etsebeth in particular was not impressed.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:54 am

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:51 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:11 am

Oh my god

I hadn't realised you wanted me to produce a dossier of every player who raised the hackles of opposition supporters when I was giving you some idea of how far back this goes

You mean you don't possess such data?
I am disappoint.

It's just a one-page printout of THE ISLAND OF IRELAND with "CUNTS" scribbled on it in angry red crayon

I expected regression analysis with >1000 data points.

Part of the problem here is that other countries don't really take the breakdown seriously and get upset when other teams "turnover" their "put in". Ireland put a particular focus on it because we don't have the prime athletes that other countries do.

It's a bit like the complaining about choke tackles. Every kid learns that carrying high risks turnover, especially when they make the step up to adult rugby. If kids can learn it, why can't international rugby players?

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:18 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:08 am

I'd go as far to say that if Munster & Leinster were never part of European competition, Ireland would've received 5% of the complaints - you cannot separate these sides from the national team and people are already primed to expect what they perceive as bullshit.

You see, with every post you prove my point even more.

But it's the same players from Leinster and Munster - that also play for Ireland - that are doing it!! Doris, VDF, Beirne, Conan, Henderson, Furlong, etc. All guilty and doing it knowingly.

I heard Jean Klein told the Boks what he was doing as soon as he got off the plane!! Etsebeth in particular was not impressed.

Also heard that

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:18 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:08 am

I'd go as far to say that if Munster & Leinster were never part of European competition, Ireland would've received 5% of the complaints - you cannot separate these sides from the national team and people are already primed to expect what they perceive as bullshit.

You see, with every post you prove my point even more.

But it's the same players from Leinster and Munster - that also play for Ireland - that are doing it!! Doris, VDF, Beirne, Conan, Henderson, Furlong, etc. All guilty and doing it knowingly.

I heard Jean Klein told the Boks what he was doing as soon as he got off the plane!! Etsebeth in particular was not impressed.

The point was that it was Munster, not Ireland, getting the flak in the 00s. Because Munster were a target, being one of the top sides. Then Leinster started getting it, not Ireland, because they were one of the top sides. Then Ireland started getting it as we cemented our place near the top and have been getting it increasingly over the last few years as we reached the summit.

It's a natural thing, there's more interest and more eyes on the better sides. And sadly more interest in knocking them. I'm surprised this is even an argument. I mean JMK is old enough to remember the arrogant jibes against Johnson's England despite the misuse of the word.

laurent wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:06 am

PornDog wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 8:52 am

laurent wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 6:45 am
Let's be clear the Irish Technique at the ruck is old hat now and getting old with other nations. Time for a crack down .

Go on then - explain what the "Irish Technique" is to me and how its so different to what every other team is doing?

Players do what the refs let them get away with, and I'm with you that its fucking annoying and ruining the game, but every fucking side is at it and to just single out Ireland is complete horseshit!


Tichtheid, I'd buy that about Slick if he didn't have form. He's gone on some truly epic vitriolic rants in the past, especially in the wake of a Scottish side losing to an Irish side. He's just a nasty piece of shit!

Tackling and holding players beyond the ruck in offense flopping on the tackled player in defense and never rolling away.

And only Ireland do this yes?


Edit: and on the rolling away its bullshit, we've gotten much better at it than we were and are significantly better than most other teams. The others, guilty as charged, but so is everyone else!

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:23 am
The point was that it was Munster, not Ireland, getting the flak in the 00s. Because Munster were a target, being one of the top sides. Then Leinster started getting it, not Ireland, because they were one of the top sides. Then Ireland started getting it as we cemented our place near the top and have been getting it increasingly over the last few years as we reached the summit.

So you're proving what we have been saying: Irish sides are successful because they're cheating at the breakdown more than anyone else. Munster, then Leinster and of course your National side.

As soon as the IRB Referee panel catch up with what fans are saying here, your teams are in trouble.

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:22 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:18 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:08 am

You see, with every post you prove my point even more.

But it's the same players from Leinster and Munster - that also play for Ireland - that are doing it!! Doris, VDF, Beirne, Conan, Henderson, Furlong, etc. All guilty and doing it knowingly.

I heard Jean Klein told the Boks what he was doing as soon as he got off the plane!! Etsebeth in particular was not impressed.

Also heard that

Where did you hear it?

Simian wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:30 am

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:22 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:18 am

But it's the same players from Leinster and Munster - that also play for Ireland - that are doing it!! Doris, VDF, Beirne, Conan, Henderson, Furlong, etc. All guilty and doing it knowingly.

I heard Jean Klein told the Boks what he was doing as soon as he got off the plane!! Etsebeth in particular was not impressed.

Also heard that

Where did you hear it?

He's taking the piss

PornDog wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:33 am

Simian wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:30 am

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:22 am

Also heard that

Where did you hear it?

He's taking the piss

Oops. It’s become hard for me to tell in this thread!

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:28 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:23 am
The point was that it was Munster, not Ireland, getting the flak in the 00s. Because Munster were a target, being one of the top sides. Then Leinster started getting it, not Ireland, because they were one of the top sides. Then Ireland started getting it as we cemented our place near the top and have been getting it increasingly over the last few years as we reached the summit.

So you're proving what we have been saying: Irish sides are successful because they're cheating at the breakdown more than anyone else. Munster, then Leinster and of course your National side.

As soon as the IRB Referee panel catch up with what fans are saying here, your teams are in trouble.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:28 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:23 am
The point was that it was Munster, not Ireland, getting the flak in the 00s. Because Munster were a target, being one of the top sides. Then Leinster started getting it, not Ireland, because they were one of the top sides. Then Ireland started getting it as we cemented our place near the top and have been getting it increasingly over the last few years as we reached the summit.

So you're proving what we have been saying: Irish sides are successful because they're cheating at the breakdown more than anyone else. Munster, then Leinster and of course your National side.

As soon as the IRB Referee panel catch up with what fans are saying here, your teams are in trouble.

Any day now...

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:36 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:34 pm

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:33 pm

Well that's a bit stupid.

I don't know, i reckon an example of an Irish team being reffed correctly at the breakdown and not being able to deal with it is pretty good.

That had absolutely nothing to do with it and actually does LAR a disservice to suggest so.

It was a massive factor in the game. ROG knows the Irish tactics at least as well as anyone and in both finals set out to try and reduce the influence (or hopefully nullify) it.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:42 pm You are making shit up to aid you not liking us. Torq at least admits to not even watching us. He just vibes that we are wrong doing. You are claiming to have seen it live with your eyes. Just own your hatred and that will later dilute my laughter

You do love your rewrites of history. I said no such thing. I've watched most meaningful Ire intl games over they years............ except when they've clashed with something else I wanted to watch in preference. In this case. Arg v SA. So I only caught the end of the Ita game, in time to see Ire committing n illegalities at the breakdown as Ita pressed for a late try.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 11:28 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:36 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:34 pm

I don't know, i reckon an example of an Irish team being reffed correctly at the breakdown and not being able to deal with it is pretty good.

That had absolutely nothing to do with it and actually does LAR a disservice to suggest so.

It was a massive factor in the game. ROG knows the Irish tactics at least as well as anyone and in both finals set out to try and reduce the influence (or hopefully nullify) it.

So you don't think the fact we kept on messing up our exits and none of our outside backs passed the ball had anything to do with it? We gave away a similar amount of penalties as we got turnovers at the breakdown.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:53 am
On the Munster point: given that Ireland has exactly two teams that directly impact the national side in a meaningful way it's daft to pretend that there's never been any Munster (or Leinster) influence on how the national side approaches the breakdown,

More likely the reverse? National policy demands driving how the game was played at province level?

I'm not knocking that per se, just commenting on the direction of directions: when you have a limited playing pool (and centrally contracted players), of course it makes sense in the ntl interest to have them all playing at club level to the way they would be deployed at intl level.

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:11 am

laurent wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:06 am

PornDog wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 8:52 am

Go on then - explain what the "Irish Technique" is to me and how its so different to what every other team is doing?

Players do what the refs let them get away with, and I'm with you that its fucking annoying and ruining the game, but every fucking side is at it and to just single out Ireland is complete horseshit!


Tichtheid, I'd buy that about Slick if he didn't have form. He's gone on some truly epic vitriolic rants in the past, especially in the wake of a Scottish side losing to an Irish side. He's just a nasty piece of shit!

Tackling and holding players beyond the ruck in offense flopping on the tackled player in defense and never rolling away.

You're having a laugh if you don't think every team does this but we've gotten squeaky clean on the rolling away, more so than other sides, ever since Barnes kept fúcking us over for doing it years ago.

Again, you think every ref keeps on missing this stuff for us and not others despite it being so ingrained that it would be part of their briefing to look out for?

Mehhh. The not rolling away issue is the only part of the ruck that is reasonably well reffed across the board. Probably because it's so obvious. And consequently, nobody deploys this (so I'm not 100% with laurent on that aspect) as deliberate policy (except maybe at a critical juncture like preventing a certain try): what you see is dumb players, lazy players (Atonio) and the occasional unlucky ones who had no route to roll away.

Laurent is spot on with the rest. When you watch the breakdown evolving, Irish sides always use the tactic of players coming in from the side and beyond the ruck. The Twatter clips above being perfect examples of what is routine.

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 11:41 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 11:28 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:36 pm

That had absolutely nothing to do with it and actually does LAR a disservice to suggest so.

It was a massive factor in the game. ROG knows the Irish tactics at least as well as anyone and in both finals set out to try and reduce the influence (or hopefully nullify) it.

So you don't think the fact we kept on messing up our exits and none of our outside backs passed the ball had anything to do with it? We gave away a similar amount of penalties as we got turnovers at the breakdown.

FM. Of course pinning Leinster down in their own half for most of the 2nd half was a huge factor too. This isn't an either/or position. You might consider your last point in the context of how few offensive rucks you were able/allowed to generate in the game.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 11:46 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:53 am
On the Munster point: given that Ireland has exactly two teams that directly impact the national side in a meaningful way it's daft to pretend that there's never been any Munster (or Leinster) influence on how the national side approaches the breakdown,

More likely the reverse? National policy demands driving how the game was played at province level?

I'm not knocking that per se, just commenting on the direction of directions: when you have a limited playing pool (and centrally contracted players), of course it makes sense in the ntl interest to have them all playing at club level to the way they would be deployed at intl level.

That's a very recent change for Ireland.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 11:52 am

CM11 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:11 am

laurent wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:06 am

Tackling and holding players beyond the ruck in offense flopping on the tackled player in defense and never rolling away.

You're having a laugh if you don't think every team does this but we've gotten squeaky clean on the rolling away, more so than other sides, ever since Barnes kept fúcking us over for doing it years ago.

Again, you think every ref keeps on missing this stuff for us and not others despite it being so ingrained that it would be part of their briefing to look out for?

Mehhh. The not rolling away issue is the only part of the ruck that is reasonably well reffed across the board. Probably because it's so obvious. And consequently, nobody deploys this (so I'm not 100% with laurent on that aspect) as deliberate policy (except maybe at a critical juncture like preventing a certain try): what you see is dumb players, lazy players (Atonio) and the occasional unlucky ones who had no route to roll away.

Laurent is spot on with the rest. When you watch the breakdown evolving, Irish sides always use the tactic of players coming in from the side and beyond the ruck. The Twatter clips above being perfect examples of what is routine.

Every side does as much ahead of the ball/hands past the ball/in at the side/over the top as the ref will allow them. The only thing you can accuse Ireland of is, possibly, painting a clean picture for the ref but it's not like it's not a tactic every side employs. And if it was an illegal tactic we kept getting away with more than most, do you not think the refs would have copped by now and we'd start seeing us being penalised more than most instead of the opposite?