History thread

[ASMO]

Thread is not complete without a picture of the stunning Professor Suzannah Liscombe who is an expert on the Tudors

[Calculon]

Just finished a book on Reagans role in the end of the Cold War and read the speech he gave to students at Moscow uni in 1988. Most of it he is championing the coming of the information age, the silicon chip, satellite technology and talking up the prospect of improving relations between the USA and the Soviet Union and there's an interesting paragraph at the end there.

"Americans seek always to make friends of old antagonists. After a colonial revolution with Britain, we have cemented for all ages the ties of kinship between our nations. After a terrible Civil War between North and South, we healed our wounds and found true unity as a nation. We fought two world wars in my lifetime against Germany and one with Japan, but now the Federal Republic of Germany and Japan are two of our closest allies and friends"

Sure, if you ignore the failure of reconstruction, the emergence of the KKK and the fact that it took black Americans another 100 years to gain civil rights.

[Niegs]

Wee bit of rugby history!

The concept of offside at rucks and protection of the halfback was not highly developed.

When I saw the Yanks on the touchline I imagined they were all saying things like: “Can you believe our game came from this!?” and “See, this is why in grandpop’s day they added some structure and order to this mess!”

[GogLais]

Thread is not complete without a picture of the stunning Professor Suzannah Liscombe who is an expert on the Tudors

She reminds me of Botticelli’s Venus.

[Brazil]

Wee bit of rugby history!

The concept of offside at rucks and protection of the halfback was not highly developed.

My Uncle John played scrum half in the artillery during the British Mandate in Palestine. He was missing the back three molars on one side of his jaw thanks to the Chaplain of the Irish Guards catching him at the bottom of a ruck...

[Hugo]

I'm currently reading a history of Mexico (by Henry Bamford Parkes). Its good but pretty basic - there are only two short chapters on the pre Columbus era and for instance the Mexican American war is covered in only 11 pages.

The early 19th century stuff is absolutely fascinating - the war for independence from Spain and all the subsequent civil wars and tumult. So many factions and every government seemed to last all of five minutes before being replaced by another short lived regime.

There is a lot to unpack and make sense of but one of the things that is readily apparent is the way in which the Catholic church served as an impediment to the establishment of a functional Mexican state.

It seems like one of the things the founding fathers of the US absolutely nailed - separation of church & state was not just a function of belief in religious freedom. It ensured that the growth of the American republic was not hamstrung by a religious institution that had its own agenda and would interfere with the affairs of the government.

[Niegs]

I'm currently reading a history of Mexico (by Henry Bamford Parkes). Its good but pretty basic - there are only two short chapters on the pre Columbus era and for instance the Mexican American war is covered in only 11 pages.

The early 19th century stuff is absolutely fascinating - the war for independence from Spain and all the subsequent civil wars and tumult. So many factions and every government seemed to last all of five minutes before being replaced by another short lived regime.

There is a lot to unpack and make sense of but one of the things that is readily apparent is the way in which the Catholic church served as an impediment to the establishment of a functional Mexican state.

It seems like one of the things the founding fathers of the US absolutely nailed - separation of church & state was not just a function of belief in religious freedom. It ensured that the growth of the American republic was not hamstrung by a religious institution that had its own agenda and would interfere with the affairs of the government.

I forget which 'Western' first introduced this to me (maybe Major Dundee?), but was surprised to see France had their hands fully dipped into Mexico in the 19th century.

[Hugo]

I'm currently reading a history of Mexico (by Henry Bamford Parkes). Its good but pretty basic - there are only two short chapters on the pre Columbus era and for instance the Mexican American war is covered in only 11 pages.

The early 19th century stuff is absolutely fascinating - the war for independence from Spain and all the subsequent civil wars and tumult. So many factions and every government seemed to last all of five minutes before being replaced by another short lived regime.

There is a lot to unpack and make sense of but one of the things that is readily apparent is the way in which the Catholic church served as an impediment to the establishment of a functional Mexican state.

It seems like one of the things the founding fathers of the US absolutely nailed - separation of church & state was not just a function of belief in religious freedom. It ensured that the growth of the American republic was not hamstrung by a religious institution that had its own agenda and would interfere with the affairs of the government.

I forget which 'Western' first introduced this to me (maybe Major Dundee?), but was surprised to see France had their hands fully dipped into Mexico in the 19th century.

Two mules for sister Sarah?

I'm barely scratching the surface with this book but it reads to me that Mexico found it difficult to truly establish its independence from the Old Continent because its economic growth and political autonomy had been so severely curtailed by the Spanish during the colonial era. Also, there is no sense of a clean break with Spain like you have with the US & Britain after the American revolutionary war.

A lot of the conservatives and reactionaries were actually in favour of Mexico being governed by a European monarch (any European monarch) than a Mexican.

[Tichtheid]

There was mention of the Highland Clearances in the Exeter Chiefs thread, and I thought this might be of interest to some.

The Highland Clearances
In Our Time

Melvyn Bragg and guests discuss how and why Highlanders and Islanders were cleared from their homes in waves in C18th and C19th, following the break up of the Clans after the Battle of Culloden. Initially, landlords tried to keep people on their estates for money-making schemes, but the end of the Napoleonic Wars brought convulsive changes. Some of the evictions were notorious, with the sudden and fatal burning of townships, to make way for sheep and deer farming. For many, migration brought a new start elsewhere in Britain or in the British colonies, while for some it meant death from disease while in transit. After more than a century of upheaval, the Clearances left an indelible mark on the people and landscape of the Highlands and Western Isles.

The image above is a detail from a print of 'Lochaber No More' by John Watson Nicol 1856-1926

With

Sir Tom Devine
Professor Emeritus of Scottish History at the University of Edinburgh

Marjory Harper
Professor of History at the University of Aberdeen and Visiting Professor at the University of the Highlands and Islands

And

Murray Pittock
Bradley Professor of English Literature and Pro Vice Principal at the University of Glasgow

Producer: Simon Tillotson.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09tc4tm

[Mahoney]

I'm reading this on the clearances:
The Scottish Clearances: A History of the Dispossessed, 1600-1900 by T. M. Devine

It's a good correction to some of the more mawkish and less nuanced depictions.

[Tichtheid]

I'm reading this on the clearances:
The Scottish Clearances: A History of the Dispossessed, 1600-1900 by T. M. Devine

It's a good correction to some of the more mawkish and less nuanced depictions.

Funnily enough that book is referenced in the radio programme.

[Line6 HXFX]

Fun fact, the Welsh invented and created England.
Having conquered the English at the Battle of Bosworth, the Welsh Tudor Dynasty under Henry Tudor went on create the England we know and love today.
Wales had to essentially build England from scratch, and from nothing and pull it out of the gutter, as it was frankly and at this time completely decimated from top to bottom.
The tudors wanted England and the English to go fight the French, to get their confidence back, and so had to basically reinvent England as a nation.
The English to this day wear our Tudor emblem on their Rugby Jerseys, in appreciation.

[Sandstorm]

I'm currently reading a history of Mexico (by Henry Bamford Parkes). Its good but pretty basic - there are only two short chapters on the pre Columbus era and for instance the Mexican American war is covered in only 11 pages.

The early 19th century stuff is absolutely fascinating - the war for independence from Spain and all the subsequent civil wars and tumult. So many factions and every government seemed to last all of five minutes before being replaced by another short lived regime.

There is a lot to unpack and make sense of but one of the things that is readily apparent is the way in which the Catholic church served as an impediment to the establishment of a functional Mexican state.

It seems like one of the things the founding fathers of the US absolutely nailed - separation of church & state was not just a function of belief in religious freedom. It ensured that the growth of the American republic was not hamstrung by a religious institution that had its own agenda and would interfere with the affairs of the government.

I forget which 'Western' first introduced this to me (maybe Major Dundee?), but was surprised to see France had their hands fully dipped into Mexico in the 19th century.

Two mules for sister Sarah?

I'm barely scratching the surface with this book but it reads to me that Mexico found it difficult to truly establish its independence from the Old Continent because its economic growth and political autonomy had been so severely curtailed by the Spanish during the colonial era. Also, there is no sense of a clean break with Spain like you have with the US & Britain after the American revolutionary war.

A lot of the conservatives and reactionaries were actually in favour of Mexico being governed by a European monarch (any European monarch) than a Mexican.

Mexico is still a shit-show 150 years later.

[Torquemada 1420]

Mexico is still a shit-show 150 years later.

There was a doco on the beeb a while back which stated Mexico had the higher % area on national parks in the world. Made me pay attention because I'd assumed it would be near the reverse.

[tc27]

Just finished a book on Reagans role in the end of the Cold War and read the speech he gave to students at Moscow uni in 1988. Most of it he is championing the coming of the information age, the silicon chip, satellite technology and talking up the prospect of improving relations between the USA and the Soviet Union and there's an interesting paragraph at the end there.

"Americans seek always to make friends of old antagonists. After a colonial revolution with Britain, we have cemented for all ages the ties of kinship between our nations. After a terrible Civil War between North and South, we healed our wounds and found true unity as a nation. We fought two world wars in my lifetime against Germany and one with Japan, but now the Federal Republic of Germany and Japan are two of our closest allies and friends"

Sure, if you ignore the failure of reconstruction, the emergence of the KKK and the fact that it took black Americans another 100 years to gain civil rights.

Sure but compared to how the aftermath of the civil war could have gone the outcome was one of the better timelines - if anything the US government was too lenient in so far as allowing many secessionist politicians to return to power at state level (which lead to the problems with reconstruction and civil rights).


And its a fair point the US reconstruction of Japan and West Germany was a triumph of foreign policy.

[Calculon]

Mexico is still a shit-show 150 years later.

My friend lives in Mexico City and loves it. He far prefers it to Austin where he lived before

[Sandstorm]

Mexico is still a shit-show 150 years later.

My friend lives in Mexico City and loves it. He far prefers it to Austin where he lived before

Better food, worse beer.

[Hugo]

I'm currently reading a history of Mexico (by Henry Bamford Parkes). Its good but pretty basic - there are only two short chapters on the pre Columbus era and for instance the Mexican American war is covered in only 11 pages.

The early 19th century stuff is absolutely fascinating - the war for independence from Spain and all the subsequent civil wars and tumult. So many factions and every government seemed to last all of five minutes before being replaced by another short lived regime.

There is a lot to unpack and make sense of but one of the things that is readily apparent is the way in which the Catholic church served as an impediment to the establishment of a functional Mexican state.

It seems like one of the things the founding fathers of the US absolutely nailed - separation of church & state was not just a function of belief in religious freedom. It ensured that the growth of the American republic was not hamstrung by a religious institution that had its own agenda and would interfere with the affairs of the government.

I forget which 'Western' first introduced this to me (maybe Major Dundee?), but was surprised to see France had their hands fully dipped into Mexico in the 19th century.

And on that note I came to find out that the term "Latin America" was coined (or at least credited) to Napoleon III as a sort of way for France to claim influence over central & South America in the late 19th century. Latin America as opposed to Anglo America.

[Calculon]

That doesn't sound entirely right. Not least because napoleon 3 wasn't alive in the late 19th century. First Internet search result

The first reference to a “Latin race” in the United States came in the 1830s from Michel Chevalier, a French economist. A few decades later, “Latin America” appeared in writing for the first time during a conference held in Paris by Chilean politician Francisco Bilbao

.

It does suggest napoleon 3 played up the term to justify French involvement in Mexico in the 1860s

[Calculon]

Mexico is still a shit-show 150 years later.

My friend lives in Mexico City and loves it. He far prefers it to Austin where he lived before

Better food, worse beer.

He doesn't drink, he's staying in a beautiful and trendy part of the city

[Hugo]

That doesn't sound entirely right. Not least because napoleon 3 wasn't alive in the late 19th century. First Internet search result

The first reference to a “Latin race” in the United States came in the 1830s from Michel Chevalier, a French economist. A few decades later, “Latin America” appeared in writing for the first time during a conference held in Paris by Chilean politician Francisco Bilbao

.

It does suggest napoleon 3 played up the term to justify French involvement in Mexico in the 1860s

I erroneously said late 19th century rather than mid century but yes that is the jist of it.

Napoleon III invaded Mexico in the 1860s & installed one of the Habsburgs as Emperor of Mexico. He lasted all of three years before he met an untimely death.

The Americans were preoccupied with their civil war at the time so Napoleon thought he would chance his arm in Mexico.

[Hugo]

Just been doing some reading of late on the British/American coup in Iran in 1953.

Interesting to note the involvement of two people with well known surnames:

- Kermit Roosevelt was a CIA operative and the person who led Operation Ajax - he was a grandson of Teddy Roosevelt.

- Norman Schwarzkopf Jr's father (Norman Sr) was considered the man responsible for establishing the Iranian secret police force, SAVAK. SAVAK was the most hated and feared institution in Iran during the reign of Shah Pahlavi from 1953-1979 and was responsible for interrogating, torturing and murdering political dissidents. Schwarzkopf is also credited with being the person who persuaded the Shah to participate in the coup and take the leadership once Mossadegh was deposed.

[Niegs]

Just been doing some reading of late on the British/American coup in Iran in 1953.

Interesting to note the involvement of two people with well known surnames:

- Kermit Roosevelt was a CIA operative and the person who led Operation Ajax - he was a grandson of Teddy Roosevelt.

- Norman Schwarzkopf Jr's father (Norman Sr) was considered the man responsible for establishing the Iranian secret police force, SAVAK. SAVAK was the most hated and feared institution in Iran during the reign of Shah Pahlavi from 1953-1979 and was responsible for interrogating, torturing and murdering political dissidents. Schwarzkopf is also credited with being the person who persuaded the Shah to participate in the coup and take the leadership once Mossadegh was deposed.

That's so interesting! I just recently re-watched, many years since first viewing, Der Baader Meinhof Komplex. At the beginning, there's a scene where the Shah visits Berlin and protestors clash with pro Shah men in suits, get a right beat down, and one is shot by a policeman. I read a bit later and turns out he was a Stasi collaborator and was not only exonerated then, he was remorseless when interviewed later in life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Benno_Ohnesorg



The scene from the film seems to have even tried to recreate some archival footage!

Spoiler

Show

[GogLais]

Just been doing some reading of late on the British/American coup in Iran in 1953.

Interesting to note the involvement of two people with well known surnames:

- Kermit Roosevelt was a CIA operative and the person who led Operation Ajax - he was a grandson of Teddy Roosevelt.

- Norman Schwarzkopf Jr's father (Norman Sr) was considered the man responsible for establishing the Iranian secret police force, SAVAK. SAVAK was the most hated and feared institution in Iran during the reign of Shah Pahlavi from 1953-1979 and was responsible for interrogating, torturing and murdering political dissidents. Schwarzkopf is also credited with being the person who persuaded the Shah to participate in the coup and take the leadership once Mossadegh was deposed.

Still a very sore point in Iran:UK relationships apparently. Why can’t they forgive and forget?

[MungoMan]

Just been doing some reading of late on the British/American coup in Iran in 1953.

Interesting to note the involvement of two people with well known surnames:

- Kermit Roosevelt was a CIA operative and the person who led Operation Ajax - he was a grandson of Teddy Roosevelt.

- Norman Schwarzkopf Jr's father (Norman Sr) was considered the man responsible for establishing the Iranian secret police force, SAVAK. SAVAK was the most hated and feared institution in Iran during the reign of Shah Pahlavi from 1953-1979 and was responsible for interrogating, torturing and murdering political dissidents. Schwarzkopf is also credited with being the person who persuaded the Shah to participate in the coup and take the leadership once Mossadegh was deposed.

I've watched a shortish TV program on the overthrow of the Mossadegh government more than once, and the gloriously-named Kermit Roosevelt was interviewed on his and his employer's role in events. It should be available on youTube.

[Tichtheid]

I found this quite interesting.


Ukraine and Russia – a brief historical background

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2022 ... ackground/

[Sinkers]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/sci ... 31757.html

They’ve found the Endurance

[Niegs]

Mark Felton talking about Ukraine

[Paddington Bear]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/sci ... 31757.html

They’ve found the Endurance

I found clearing out my Grandparents' house a first edition of South - Shackleton's account of the trip - that was a birthday present for my Great Grandad in 1920. Amazing in it's own right but have been giving it a read since they found the ship.

[Niegs]

That's some photo!

[Hugo]

Been reading up on France-Algeria relations of late and came across this, a October 1961 massacre of Algerians in Paris: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... 927939.amp



The French state was relatively successful in covering it up but the dam burst in the 90s. The guy who orchestrated this (Maurice Papon) worked in the Vichy govt. and was successfully prosecuted in the late 90s for his involvement in the deportation of Jews.

[Monk]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/sci ... 31757.html

They’ve found the Endurance

I found clearing out my Grandparents' house a first edition of South - Shackleton's account of the trip - that was a birthday present for my Great Grandad in 1920. Amazing in it's own right but have been giving it a read since they found the ship.

quite a remarkable story. To think Shackleton achieved what he did while maintaining a serious drinking problem.

[Paddington Bear]

May be a stretch for most but until tomorrow (Trafalgar Day) the National Maritime Museum is displaying an enormous Spanish ensign from San Ildefonso, captured at Trafalgar and later pressed into Royal Navy service. The ensign is I think over 14 metres long, has musket and cannonball holes from the battle and was draped in St Paul's at Nelson's funeral. Last displayed for a day in 2005 and I think the 60s before that, was quite something to view.

[Niegs]

Here I thought 'grape' was more the size of of typical musket balls. These must have blown lads apart!?




Also, had a right chuckle at the the comment:

Spoiler

Show

I own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. Four ruffians break into my house. "What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog. I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot, "Tally ho lads" the grape shot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the founding fathers intended.

[Calculon]

[fishfoodie]

Here I thought 'grape' was more the size of of typical musket balls. These must have blown lads apart!?




Also, had a right chuckle at the the comment:

Spoiler

Show

I own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. Four ruffians break into my house. "What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog. I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot, "Tally ho lads" the grape shot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the founding fathers intended.

Isn't that Canister, not grape ?

Grape being the, "grape" sized shot, while Canister is golf ball sized nastiness.

[Niegs]

Interestingly, I don't think I've ever seen the back of that before... and probably didn't want to think of the damage that'd actually cause.

(On one hand, I regret watching that video from Ukraine where the lads got shot from short range by a tank, but on the other hand things like this remind me war is not a lark. )

[Calculon]

Here I thought 'grape' was more the size of of typical musket balls. These must have blown lads apart!?




Also, had a right chuckle at the the comment:

Spoiler

Show

I own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. Four ruffians break into my house. "What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog. I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot, "Tally ho lads" the grape shot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the founding fathers intended.

Isn't that Canister, not grape ?

Grape being the, "grape" sized shot, while Canister is golf ball sized nastiness.

the opposite, grape shot used fewer but larger projectiles

[BnM]

Been reading from about UK Rome leaving to Tudors and thought I'd read this to fill some gaps. I thought he was supposed to be something special as a historian. Really not getting at times which how he writes. I'd guess at times there's a least 2 writers in this book at least, language isn't consistent. It's not a bad book but it's not great.

Not getting this - ‘Combines compelling narrative and lucid analysis to guide us with a sure hand…’ Spectator

[Niegs]

Been reading from about UK Rome leaving to Tudors and thought I'd read this to fill some gaps. I thought he was supposed to be something special as a historian. Really not getting at times which how he writes. I'd guess at times there's a least 2 writers in this book at least, language isn't consistent. It's not a bad book but it's not great.

Not getting this - ‘Combines compelling narrative and lucid analysis to guide us with a sure hand…’ Spectator

Would be interesting to know if there were ghost writers on this or maybe editor just let the inconsistencies slide where the author wrote parts in different frames of mind / wasn't in the zone at times?

I filled in those gaps, as it were, with a book you wouldn't find in school curriculum these days: