What did we learn about the AB's this year?

[Kiwias]

We shouldn’t criticize Napoleon for invading Russia in the winter. None of us are generals or have even conducted an invasion.

Can we criticise Hitler for doing the same?

[FujiKiwi]

I’m sure Dan just accepts every move Donald Trump makes as being an astute decision. We should accept this unquestioningly because none of us have ever been US president before.

[Guy Smiley]

We shouldn’t criticize Napoleon for invading Russia in the winter. None of us are generals or have even conducted an invasion.

Napoleon’s campaign against Russia began in June... just before the height of the European summer.

Stop using Napoleon to make excuses for Fozzie. I’m sick of it.

[Jb1981]

We shouldn’t criticize Napoleon for invading Russia in the winter. None of us are generals or have even conducted an invasion.

Napoleon’s campaign against Russia began in June... just before the height of the European summer.

Stop using Napoleon to make excuses for Fozzie. I’m sick of it.

The Grande Armée in Winter was out of place, ill-equipped for the task at hand and painfully slow. Foster would select it on the right-wing.

[FujiKiwi]

We shouldn’t criticize Napoleon for invading Russia in the winter. None of us are generals or have even conducted an invasion.

Napoleon’s campaign against Russia began in June... just before the height of the European summer.

Stop using Napoleon to make excuses for Fozzie. I’m sick of it.

The Grande Armée in Winter was out of place, ill-equipped for the task at hand and painfully slow. Foster would select it on the right-wing.

[FujiKiwi]

We shouldn’t criticize Napoleon for invading Russia in the winter. None of us are generals or have even conducted an invasion.

Napoleon’s campaign against Russia began in June... just before the height of the European summer.

Stop using Napoleon to make excuses for Fozzie. I’m sick of it.

Unless you are a victorious Cossack, you are unqualified to correct me on this matter.

[Gumboot]

We shouldn’t criticize Napoleon for invading Russia in the winter. None of us are generals or have even conducted an invasion.

Napoleon’s campaign against Russia began in June... just before the height of the European summer.

Stop using Napoleon to make excuses for Fozzie. I’m sick of it.

The Grande Armée in Winter was out of place, ill-equipped for the task at hand and painfully slow. Foster would select it on the right-wing.

Pfft...there's no way Fuzzy would replace our leading try-scorer of 2020.

[Dan54]

I’ve learned that the All Black selectors know Diddly Squat about picking an AB team. I’d rather go for teams selected on this here bored than what’s been selected and run out this year, including its Captain. Imo.

Of course you would, and you would proably say the players know less than you do who is playing well in a test match with them. You do know that was what the discussion was about before CC decided it had to do with Foster somehow?

[Dan54]

I’m sure Dan just accepts every move Donald Trump makes as being an astute decision. We should accept this unquestioningly because none of us have ever been US president before.

I sure you know what you talking about here, because I f***ed if I do. Or has Trump started playing/picking or coaching rugby?

[FujiKiwi]

I’m sure Dan just accepts every move Donald Trump makes as being an astute decision. We should accept this unquestioningly because none of us have ever been US president before.

I sure you know what you talking about here, because I f***ed if I do. Or has Trump started playing/picking or coaching rugby?

I was satirizing your belief that people in charge automatically know best. I think it’s silly.

[Dan54]

I’m sure Dan just accepts every move Donald Trump makes as being an astute decision. We should accept this unquestioningly because none of us have ever been US president before.

I sure you know what you talking about here, because I f***ed if I do. Or has Trump started playing/picking or coaching rugby?

I was satirizing your belief that people in charge automatically know best. I think it’s silly.

No people in charge don't automatically know best, but all the conversation was about that the PLAYERS who play with someone would know better than us who is good.
You know the fact the All Black PLAYERS voted Cane as best player.
I was merely pointing out to the haters that maybe there more to a game of rugby than what we see on tv. Why would that upset any sensible person?

[FujiKiwi]

No doubt the players respect Sam Cane’s honest toil, and feel a sense of loyalty to the AB captain. That’s commendable. Good on them. It’s not automatic proof he’s the best player.

[Jb1981]

No people in charge don't automatically know best, but all the conversation was about that the PLAYERS who play with someone would know better than us who is good.
You know the fact the All Black PLAYERS voted Cane as best player.
I was merely pointing out to the haters that maybe there more to a game of rugby than what we see on tv. Why would that upset any sensible person?

That sounds very familiar.

“I think we have got amazing fans but we have also got some pretty brutal ones. With that, you have just got to remind yourself that, hey, they might like to think they know a lot about the game of rugby but really they don’t,”

“They may know the game from what they see in the 80 minutes but they do not see a lot of the stuff that goes on behind the scenes.”

“To me, if I am having my leadership questioned in the public, people’s opinions that really matter to me are my team-mates and my coaches, who I work with every single day.”

Are you Sam Cane?

[Wild Beef]

No doubt the players respect Sam Cane’s honest toil, and feel a sense of loyalty to the AB captain. That’s commendable. Good on them. It’s not automatic proof he’s the best player.

Wasn’t the poll taken before he was announced? I forget but think I read that somewhere.

[Gumboot]

No doubt the players respect Sam Cane’s honest toil, and feel a sense of loyalty to the AB captain. That’s commendable. Good on them. It’s not automatic proof he’s the best player.

Damned with faint praise.

But they're your words of course, not his teammates'....


So out of interest, who was your All Black of the year, Fuji?

[Guy Smiley]

No doubt the players respect Sam Cane’s honest toil, and feel a sense of loyalty to the AB captain. That’s commendable. Good on them. It’s not automatic proof he’s the best player.

Damned with faint praise.

But they're your words of course, not his teammates'....


So out of interest, who was your All Black of the year, Fuji?

It doesn’t matter what the question is, the answer is always...














Jordie Barrett.

[FujiKiwi]

No doubt the players respect Sam Cane’s honest toil, and feel a sense of loyalty to the AB captain. That’s commendable. Good on them. It’s not automatic proof he’s the best player.

Damned with faint praise.

But they're your words of course, not his teammates'....


So out of interest, who was your All Black of the year, Fuji?

If you put me on the spot, I guess I’d say Ardie Savea, although for some reason he was being played out of position.

[Gumboot]

No doubt the players respect Sam Cane’s honest toil, and feel a sense of loyalty to the AB captain. That’s commendable. Good on them. It’s not automatic proof he’s the best player.

Damned with faint praise.

But they're your words of course, not his teammates'....


So out of interest, who was your All Black of the year, Fuji?

If you put me on the spot, I guess I’d say Ardie Savea, although for some reason he was being played out of position.

Which rather begs the question - if Cane's been playing 7 all year and is his teammate's best player, and Savea's been playing 8 all year and is your best player, what exactly is the problem?

[FujiKiwi]

Damned with faint praise.

But they're your words of course, not his teammates'....


So out of interest, who was your All Black of the year, Fuji?

If you put me on the spot, I guess I’d say Ardie Savea, although for some reason he was being played out of position.

Which rather begs the question - if Cane's been playing 7 all year and is his teammate's best player, and Savea's been playing 8 all year and is your best player, what exactly is the problem?

Cane’s teammates giving him that accolade needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

And even setting that aside, there’s probably a better balance available given the availability of Sotutu, Akira, Boshier, Papalii etc.

But those other exciting possibilities aren’t even on the table because of the automatic selection Cane gets as AB captain.

[Gumboot]

Fair enough, if you don't think Cane's a worthy selection I guess there's no point in discussing it further. FWIW I think 7 and 8 have both played brilliantly this year and are the least of our problems going forward.

[FujiKiwi]

Fair enough, if you don't think Cane's a worthy selection I guess there's no point in discussing it further. FWIW I think 7 and 8 have both played brilliantly this year and are the least of our problems going forward.

I am happy for Cane to be in the frame for selection based on his merits as a player. It’s his automatic selection I disagree with, and the claims made by certain boredies that we need to just accept every selection as being a good one unless we have played for the ABs ourselves. That’s just silly on many different levels.

[Wild Beef]

“Canes teammates giving him that accolade needs to be taken with a grain of salt”

True. What the fuck would they know?

[FujiKiwi]

“Canes teammates giving him that accolade needs to be taken with a grain of salt”

True. What the fuck would they know?

They may have awarded it to him to cheer him up after a year of him leading his teams to ignominious defeats.

[Gumboot]

“Canes teammates giving him that accolade needs to be taken with a grain of salt”

True. What the fuck would they know?

They may have awarded it to him to cheer him up after a year of him leading his teams to ignominious defeats.

Cane's predecessor as captain was no slouch when it came to ignominious defeats. Our first ever losses to Ireland - not one, but two! A drawn Lions series that felt more like a loss. Humiliation at the hands of England in a World Cup Semi-Final - another first!!

Sam has some catching up to do.

[Gumboot]

Forgot to mention our worst ever loss to Australia in Perth last year. My bad.

[Jerome_Kaino]

To answer the question in the topic title, not much.
In most positions we’re stuck with the same questions as after the RWC. We have no idea what our team for 2023 is going to be and the gameplan is helter skelter rugby. A lot of talent was barely tested and the only thing we’ve learned is that we shouldn’t play anyone out of position at test level.

[Dan54]

To answer the question in the topic title, not much.
In most positions we’re stuck with the same questions as after the RWC. We have no idea what our team for 2023 is going to be and the gameplan is helter skelter rugby. A lot of talent was barely tested and the only thing we’ve learned is that we shouldn’t play anyone out of position at test level.

I agree about the helter skelter stuff JK, I thought in first test against Pumas the way we threw it around in opening minutes struck me as perhaps a team that thought they were going to win easily and they would rack up points. Coule see the difference in the second test against them, when players actually did their jobs first.
I am wondering if we should be judging on a full season, as I not convinced any teams (apart from Pumas) can be judged to much on a f***ed up season we had.
I wouldn't write off Wallabies either, and under Rennie they have the worst record of any Wallaby team in a year (16.6666% winning record, and almost all home games), I still think they have an awful lot of problems too, but will wait until they have had a proper season to be too harsh.
Boks obviously we haven't seen, so I will make more reasoned judgements after we have all played next year.

[Dan54]

Forgot to mention our worst ever loss to Australia in Perth last year. My bad.

Interesting isn't it, Read (who I thought was good) leads ABs to worst ever loss to Wallabies and Cane leads them to best ever win over Wallabies.

[FujiKiwi]

Kieran Read was a more multi-dimensional player than Sam Cane has ever been. In addition, there wasn’t a line up of arguably better players knocking on the door to take his spot during his time as captain as Cane has with Savea, Papalii, Kirifi, Boshier, etc.

I think you could criticize Read’s performance as captain over his tenure, but to suggest his appointment as captain is a good comparison to the choice of Cane is foolish.

[Guy Smiley]

I dunno, this argument has got a bit ugly. I don’t see the need for some of the more toxic remarks about players concerned.

My impression is that the long simmering discontent about the coaching and coaching appointments for the ABs is colouring comments... that the appointment of Cane as captain months before a team was selected or a game played being a bit premature is magnified by that simmering discontent and that has spilled over into some pretty ordinary scapegoating from many here.

I rated Read as a player but his captaincy didn’t excite me so much. Pretty difficult for anyone to fill McCaw’s boots though, not only as captain but also in the 7 jersey. Cane is up against sentiment there in two fronts.

As for the awards and all... I’m sorry but I don’t trust anything coming out of the ABs these days when it comes to announcements and awards and all that. Referring again to Read’s captaincy and the change to the spear point formation of the haka with captain at front... the uneasy impression I gain from that is of the carefully choreographed performance and that unease filters every pronouncement the organisation makes for me now. It all rings a bit hollow, even false perhaps... the need to promote everything from players posting pr rich content on social media to sitting Cane up in front of a press conference without wiping the fucking blood of his head fercryinoutloud...

Everything feels stage managed. The coaching is shithouse. Selections are a balls up. We’re assured everything is hunky dory and everyone is on board and happy as clams.

I call bullshit. I don’t trust em.

[FujiKiwi]

I don't really see many comments from any side of the debate as being "toxic" about players. I, for one, see Cane as a good player—a real warrior for the ABs —but undeserving of the captain's role.

I agree that things are too stage-managed. I'm not too sure if there's much of a correlation, but that seemed to be starting to ramp up as the team went into a decline around 2017.

[handyman]

For me, the chopping and changing in the centres is silly. Who do kiwi's regard as the best centre pairing currently?

[Guy Smiley]

12... ALB
13...Goodhue

22... Laumape

[Dan54]

12... ALB
13...Goodhue

22... Laumape

I used to agree, but actually think the other way works better as I think Goodhue may lack pace for 13, so could be suited to one 12. I thought during Super Aotearoa Goodhue was the best 12 on show, Laumape had one real good game, but generally I rated Goodhue better.
Mind you I always thought that Conrad Smith wasn't all that fast for a 13 either, but made up for it with his brain and knowing where to be so well. And maybe I judge them all on the prince of centres in NZ Bruce Robertson and probably shouldn't do that.

[Wild Beef]

I dunno, this argument has got a bit ugly. I don’t see the need for some of the more toxic remarks about players concerned.

My impression is that the long simmering discontent about the coaching and coaching appointments for the ABs is colouring comments... that the appointment of Cane as captain months before a team was selected or a game played being a bit premature is magnified by that simmering discontent and that has spilled over into some pretty ordinary scapegoating from many here.

I rated Read as a player but his captaincy didn’t excite me so much. Pretty difficult for anyone to fill McCaw’s boots though, not only as captain but also in the 7 jersey. Cane is up against sentiment there in two fronts.

As for the awards and all... I’m sorry but I don’t trust anything coming out of the ABs these days when it comes to announcements and awards and all that. Referring again to Read’s captaincy and the change to the spear point formation of the haka with captain at front... the uneasy impression I gain from that is of the carefully choreographed performance and that unease filters every pronouncement the organisation makes for me now. It all rings a bit hollow, even false perhaps... the need to promote everything from players posting pr rich content on social media to sitting Cane up in front of a press conference without wiping the fucking blood of his head fercryinoutloud...

Everything feels stage managed. The coaching is shithouse. Selections are a balls up. We’re assured everything is hunky dory and everyone is on board and happy as clams.

I call bullshit. I don’t trust em.

I don’t know if it extends as far as you are suggesting but I will say my biggest concern about the all blacks is the old mans club that is NZR.

It’s far more problematic than foster, canes captaincy, the selection policy... it all pails (pales?) next to this.

[Guy Smiley]

‘Pales’, brother.

Let’s call it nepotism. The great corroder of empires.

[Carter's Choice]

From 2004 to 2011 it was almost universally agreed that the three most talented coaches in NZ were all coaching the AB's (Henry, Smith and Hansen) and that the best leader was captaining the All Blacks in Richie McCaw. Fast forward to today and I doubt even a NZR stooge like Dan54 would say that the All Black coaching team is comprised of our most talented coaches, or that the best captain in NZ is captaining the All Blacks.

[Ymx]

From 2004 to 2011 it was almost universally agreed that the three most talented coaches in NZ were all coaching the AB's (Henry, Smith and Hansen) and that the best leader was captaining the All Blacks in Richie McCaw. Fast forward to today and I doubt even a NZR stooge like Dan54 would say that the All Black coaching team is comprised of our most talented coaches, or that the best captain in NZ is captaining the All Blacks.

That really was the absolute A team of all time, looking at those names. Greatest Leaders Of All Time.

[Ted.]

12... ALB
13...Goodhue

22... Laumape

I used to agree, but actually think the other way works better as I think Goodhue may lack pace for 13, so could be suited to one 12. I thought during Super Aotearoa Goodhue was the best 12 on show, Laumape had one real good game, but generally I rated Goodhue better.
Mind you I always thought that Conrad Smith wasn't all that fast for a 13 either, but made up for it with his brain and knowing where to be so well. And maybe I judge them all on the prince of centres in NZ Bruce Robertson and probably shouldn't do that.

Goodhue is a centre. ALB can play both positions but is more adept at 12. If Goodhue lacks pace for centre, which I don't necessarily agree with, then he should not be in the team. And if that is the reason he's been shoehorned into 12, then it is a more fuckwitted selection than I thought.

As an aside, when will Braydon Ennor be back in the mix? He certainly doesn't lack for pace.

[stemoc]

Goodhue is the closest to conrad smith type 13 NZ has and thats something cause i was sure when conrad retired, he'd be irreplaceable.. that said, goodhue did have a few poor games this year.. poor enough to be replaced by fucking ioane... if JG doesn't get back to 100%, i feel in 2 years he will be replaced by someone better (Ennor) who in the beginning showed he was just as good as Conrad but also , faster.