NPR

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:45 pm I guess one element of the Tory lead is that Starmer has increasingly become seemingly as indecisive as Boris - his numbers are well down.

Not to mention you should expect to hear 'Starmer would have kept us in the EU vaccine scheme' every day until the next election.

tl;dr - Labour are still a joke and unless and until that changes the Tories will struggle to be much below 35%.

Yes, at present the vaccine roll out is the gift that keeps on giving for the Tories:

It is a success in and of itself.

Because the EU screwed up their own procurement, and had such a spectacular melt down about comparisons with the UK, it is also being seen (rightly or wrongly) as a Brexit success

And, as you say, because we would probably have been part of the EU scheme if Labour had been in charge, it also portrays Labour as a worse option than the Tories.

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:06 pm

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:38 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:48 am

Or because of the Blonde Bumblecunt previous utterings of 'it'll all be over in 12 weeks/by Easter/by Summer/by Christmas' the journalists expect to hear the same from him again? He has form and will struggle to hold his tongue and the journalists know it.

This behaviour predates Boris. Also I'm sure Boris said they would follow the Science. It was reasonable sensible to assume this wouldn't last a year.

I find it staggering that where there is still over 1,000 death a day and over 23,000 cases a day (7 day averages) folk are focused on a date for easing of lock down. I understand folk are desperate but have we become immune to the number of deaths still happening every day? We are still in the midst of winter with bad weather on the way and it will be a struggle for many folk to just eat and keep warm. 1,322 deaths yesterday, over 109k so far and not one question on this to the PM at his 'eh, um, ah' briefing yesterday. Feck the dead, the dying and those struggling to survive, all everyone wants to know is when they can have a pint and a burger.

Probably (as polls suggest) most people don't blame Boris for it. They believe Boris may not have made the right decisions but this was akin to a natural disaster that isn't his fault. In fact polls suggest the blame is more heavily weighted to people not following COVID guidelines well enough.

Also just because most people want out of this, that doesn't mean they are going "feck the dead". It's not just about the dead people. People know their mental health is in bad shape. They may be living with health conditions or health fears they aren't being seen to by doctors. They don't want to live in fear. These are also valid things to be concerned about and to want to desire the end of lockdowns.

I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. I think they don't blame him for the pandemic happening as that would be dumb. But they have observed how much of a useless bumbling fuckwit he really is under pressure, and are very much aware of how his 'leadership' has not been a good thing during the crisis.

I'm not so sure. Maybe people into politics on the internet and in chattering classes. But such people tend to relate everything to political decisions being right or wrong. However most people don't. As I said the surveys on the matter suggest differently, that Boris didn't do a good job, but it's not his fault in unprecedented circumstances and times and that the public are largely to blame for the spread of COVID. Healthcare workers even agree on this. That is what the data most likely shows.

Britons say the public is more to blame than the government for recent increases in COVID cases – and healthcare workers agree

HEALTHCARE WORKERS (22-31 Jan)
Public - 50%
Government - 35%

GENERAL POPULATION (11 Jan)
Public - 58%
Government - 28%

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/health/arti ... kers_blame

And are a few opinion polls over the last number of months which also show this.

GogLais wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:12 pm

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:41 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:53 am

It's quite spectacular just how fucking hopeless we are at things that take a little bit of ingenuity, effort, and compromise. Other countries can manage it, but it's too hard for dear old Blighty.

It's not that we can't, it's that, weirdly, like many other countries we won't do much on the issue of borders. This unwillingness is the major difference between Europe and Australia and New Zealand. It's obviously a cultural political issue.

But we voted to restrict immigration didn’t we?

That's what Remainers and metropolitan Labour voters then to push. The data suggests Immigration controls is what people actually desire. Which may mean restriction where needed, or it may mean expanding where needed.

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:14 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:06 pm

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:38 am

This behaviour predates Boris. Also I'm sure Boris said they would follow the Science. It was reasonable sensible to assume this wouldn't last a year.





Probably (as polls suggest) most people don't blame Boris for it. They believe Boris may not have made the right decisions but this was akin to a natural disaster that isn't his fault. In fact polls suggest the blame is more heavily weighted to people not following COVID guidelines well enough.

Also just because most people want out of this, that doesn't mean they are going "feck the dead". It's not just about the dead people. People know their mental health is in bad shape. They may be living with health conditions or health fears they aren't being seen to by doctors. They don't want to live in fear. These are also valid things to be concerned about and to want to desire the end of lockdowns.

I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. I think they don't blame him for the pandemic happening as that would be dumb. But they have observed how much of a useless bumbling fuckwit he really is under pressure, and are very much aware of how his 'leadership' has not been a good thing during the crisis.

I'm not so sure. Maybe people into politics on the internet and in chattering classes. But such people tend to relate everything to political decisions being right or wrong. However most people don't. As I said the surveys on the matter suggest differently, that Boris didn't do a good job, but it's not his fault in unprecedented circumstances and times and that the public are largely to blame for the spread of COVID. Healthcare workers even agree on this. That is what the data most likely shows.

Britons say the public is more to blame than the government for recent increases in COVID cases – and healthcare workers agree

HEALTHCARE WORKERS (22-31 Jan)
Public - 50%
Government - 35%

GENERAL POPULATION (11 Jan)
Public - 58%
Government - 28%

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/health/arti ... kers_blame

And are a few opinion polls over the last number of months which also show this.

No doubt my opinion is coloured by being in Scotland

But if the Tories remain popular down south with this shower in charge, then the Union is only getting deader.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:55 pm 6 point lead is an outlier at this point. Redfield and ComRes had 2 and 3 point leads for the same fieldwork dates. Yougov had Labour leading the week before.

That said, the vaccination performance is definitely a political problem for Labour (although clearly great news generally). Looks reasonably possible that the Government could have mostly had a shocker of a pandemic, but be remembered for a strong end to it.

Several polls have shown a small Tory lead. I know because every other week #starmerout or some variant of it trends and Corbynistas throw out sarcastic tweets about how it was claimed any non-Corbyn leader would be 20 points ahead and drone on about the 2017 election as if Corbyn did lose.

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:19 pm
No doubt my opinion is coloured by being in Scotland

But if the Tories remain popular down south with this shower in charge, then the Union is only getting deader.

We will see. The fact is the Tories won't offer another referendum and will use Sturgeon's own "2014 was once in a generation" words against her forever.

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:23 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:19 pm
No doubt my opinion is coloured by being in Scotland

But if the Tories remain popular down south with this shower in charge, then the Union is only getting deader.

We will see. The fact is the Tories won't offer another referendum and will use Sturgeon's own "2014 was once in a generation" words against her forever.

Let's not get into what a generation is, who said it and how much it applies when being used as political rhetoric on this thread.

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:14 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:06 pm

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:38 am

This behaviour predates Boris. Also I'm sure Boris said they would follow the Science. It was reasonable sensible to assume this wouldn't last a year.





Probably (as polls suggest) most people don't blame Boris for it. They believe Boris may not have made the right decisions but this was akin to a natural disaster that isn't his fault. In fact polls suggest the blame is more heavily weighted to people not following COVID guidelines well enough.

Also just because most people want out of this, that doesn't mean they are going "feck the dead". It's not just about the dead people. People know their mental health is in bad shape. They may be living with health conditions or health fears they aren't being seen to by doctors. They don't want to live in fear. These are also valid things to be concerned about and to want to desire the end of lockdowns.

I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. I think they don't blame him for the pandemic happening as that would be dumb. But they have observed how much of a useless bumbling fuckwit he really is under pressure, and are very much aware of how his 'leadership' has not been a good thing during the crisis.

I'm not so sure. Maybe people into politics on the internet and in chattering classes. But such people tend to relate everything to political decisions being right or wrong. However most people don't. As I said the surveys on the matter suggest differently, that Boris didn't do a good job, but it's not his fault in unprecedented circumstances and times and that the public are largely to blame for the spread of COVID. Healthcare workers even agree on this. That is what the data most likely shows.

Britons say the public is more to blame than the government for recent increases in COVID cases – and healthcare workers agree

HEALTHCARE WORKERS (22-31 Jan)
Public - 50%
Government - 35%

GENERAL POPULATION (11 Jan)
Public - 58%
Government - 28%

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/health/arti ... kers_blame

And are a few opinion polls over the last number of months which also show this.

of course its peoples fault, the Govt. has been a contributory factor but it is people abdicating all personal responsibility for their own actions that is the vast majority of responsibility for the spread. these days it is always someone else's fault!!

People are inclined to support the government during a crisis and the opposition which has to criticise has to tread carefully lest in being seen as undermining the national effort and moral.

In that context polls should not be studied to carefully at this point.

No doubt my opinion is coloured by being in Scotland

But if the Tories remain popular down south with this shower in charge, then the Union is only getting deader.

There's no actual referendum happening any time soon and the SNPs unity is gradually falling apart...I think its premature to take a victory lap.

Nice.

Scotland in particular smashing it today.

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:39 pm

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:23 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:19 pm
No doubt my opinion is coloured by being in Scotland

But if the Tories remain popular down south with this shower in charge, then the Union is only getting deader.

We will see. The fact is the Tories won't offer another referendum and will use Sturgeon's own "2014 was once in a generation" words against her forever.

Let's not get into what a generation is, who said it and how much it applies when being used as political rhetoric on this thread.

I'm not (though certainly not 6 years), I'm saying how I think it will be approached.

tc27 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:52 pm

Nice.

Scotland in particular smashing it today.

Final numbers for the day including NI are 472K.

7 day average is now 431K, breaking through 3 million per week now

This is confusing.....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html



Medical grade masks ? What is this magic.?

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:10 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:52 pm

Nice.

Scotland in particular smashing it today.

Final numbers for the day including NI are 472K.

7 day average is now 431K, breaking through 3 million per week now

20% of the adult population have received at least one dose.

Good job UK, in regards of the vaccine, pretty sure that a growing number of people are happy not be part of the EU right now.
Covid-19 is going to be a Waterloo or Austerlitz for a lot of governments.

Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 pm Good job UK, in regards of the vaccine, pretty sure that a growing number of people are happy not be part of the EU right now.
Covid-19 is going to be a Waterloo or Austerlitz for a lot of governments.

Given we've gone past 120k deaths I don't think it's quite that simple.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:13 pm

Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 pm Good job UK, in regards of the vaccine, pretty sure that a growing number of people are happy not be part of the EU right now.
Covid-19 is going to be a Waterloo or Austerlitz for a lot of governments.

Given we've gone past 120k deaths I don't think it's quite that simple.

I know that, I was not talking about the “herd immunity” and it’s only a flue à la trump , but the way the UK gov has been handling the vaccine, from the labs financing, the push ( almost bully's style ) to have it ASAP, etc....

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:13 pm

Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 pm Good job UK, in regards of the vaccine, pretty sure that a growing number of people are happy not be part of the EU right now.
Covid-19 is going to be a Waterloo or Austerlitz for a lot of governments.

Given we've gone past 120k deaths I don't think it's quite that simple.

It isn’t. But do you not think that the Govt, and the country generally have done a remarkably good job in regard to all facets of the vaccines? Should we not celebrate achievements as well as pillory failures?

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:45 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:13 pm

Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 pm Good job UK, in regards of the vaccine, pretty sure that a growing number of people are happy not be part of the EU right now.
Covid-19 is going to be a Waterloo or Austerlitz for a lot of governments.

Given we've gone past 120k deaths I don't think it's quite that simple.

It isn’t. But do you not think that the Govt, and the country generally have done a remarkably good job in regard to all facets of the vaccines? Should we not celebrate achievements as well as pillory failures?

"a growing number of people are happy not to be part of the EU right now" is what I'm responding to. Apparently it's not enough to be happy with our vaccine rollout, now we must think we're better off out of the EU because of it - which requires turning a blind eye to the horrific death rate.

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:45 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:13 pm

Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 pm Good job UK, in regards of the vaccine, pretty sure that a growing number of people are happy not be part of the EU right now.
Covid-19 is going to be a Waterloo or Austerlitz for a lot of governments.

Given we've gone past 120k deaths I don't think it's quite that simple.

It isn’t. But do you not think that the Govt, and the country generally have done a remarkably good job in regard to all facets of the vaccines? Should we not celebrate achievements as well as pillory failures?

Yep, they've done well on vaccines and those involved deserve huge praise, particularly for moving so quickly at investment and purchase stage and PHE and the localised roll out across the country
However, that should not hide the horrendous death toll, disastrous decisions and ridiculous statements that have been made over the past 12 months and the monumental amounts of money that have been wasted or steered towadrs Tory party donors with little or no scrutiny.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:56 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:45 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:13 pm

Given we've gone past 120k deaths I don't think it's quite that simple.

It isn’t. But do you not think that the Govt, and the country generally have done a remarkably good job in regard to all facets of the vaccines? Should we not celebrate achievements as well as pillory failures?

"a growing number of people are happy not to be part of the EU right now" is what I'm responding to. Apparently it's not enough to be happy with our vaccine rollout, now we must think we're better off out of the EU because of it - which requires turning a blind eye to the horrific death rate.

Which particular EU actions have kept the death rate low in EU member countries?

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:12 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:56 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:45 pm

It isn’t. But do you not think that the Govt, and the country generally have done a remarkably good job in regard to all facets of the vaccines? Should we not celebrate achievements as well as pillory failures?

"a growing number of people are happy not to be part of the EU right now" is what I'm responding to. Apparently it's not enough to be happy with our vaccine rollout, now we must think we're better off out of the EU because of it - which requires turning a blind eye to the horrific death rate.

Which particular EU actions have kept the death rate low in EU member countries?

Fuck knows. I would expect it's largely individual government responses.

I do not get the logic that sees 120k dead and looks over the water and goes "phew, glad I'm not them!"

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:56 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:45 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:13 pm

Given we've gone past 120k deaths I don't think it's quite that simple.

It isn’t. But do you not think that the Govt, and the country generally have done a remarkably good job in regard to all facets of the vaccines? Should we not celebrate achievements as well as pillory failures?

"a growing number of people are happy not to be part of the EU right now" is what I'm responding to. Apparently it's not enough to be happy with our vaccine rollout, now we must think we're better off out of the EU because of it - which requires turning a blind eye to the horrific death rate.

I wouldn’t disagree with that. Would you agree that the Govt., and the country generally, have done an exceptionally good job with the vaccines?

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:21 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:56 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:45 pm

It isn’t. But do you not think that the Govt, and the country generally have done a remarkably good job in regard to all facets of the vaccines? Should we not celebrate achievements as well as pillory failures?

"a growing number of people are happy not to be part of the EU right now" is what I'm responding to. Apparently it's not enough to be happy with our vaccine rollout, now we must think we're better off out of the EU because of it - which requires turning a blind eye to the horrific death rate.

I wouldn’t disagree with that. Would you agree that the Govt., and the country generally, have done an exceptionally good job with the vaccines?

Sure, why not. The NHS probably deserves more of that credit, but the decision to let them handle it has worked, the procurement by the Govt has worked, and the major gamble regarding delaying the doses has seemingly paid off. Quite why you're demanding I praise them when it's not really got anything to do with what I'm talking about is beyond me, though.

SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:07 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:45 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:13 pm

Given we've gone past 120k deaths I don't think it's quite that simple.

It isn’t. But do you not think that the Govt, and the country generally have done a remarkably good job in regard to all facets of the vaccines? Should we not celebrate achievements as well as pillory failures?

Yep, they've done well on vaccines and those involved deserve huge praise, particularly for moving so quickly at investment and purchase stage and PHE and the localised roll out across the country
However, that should not hide the horrendous death toll, disastrous decisions and ridiculous statements that have been made over the past 12 months and the monumental amounts of money that have been wasted or steered towadrs Tory party donors with little or no scrutiny.

Indeed. We need balance in all of this, otherwise the achievements of some are soured by the failure of others. And, no doubt, there are some individuals who have achieved some things but messed up others.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:13 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:12 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:56 pm

"a growing number of people are happy not to be part of the EU right now" is what I'm responding to. Apparently it's not enough to be happy with our vaccine rollout, now we must think we're better off out of the EU because of it - which requires turning a blind eye to the horrific death rate.

Which particular EU actions have kept the death rate low in EU member countries?

Fuck knows. I would expect it's largely individual government responses.

I do not get the logic that sees 120k dead and looks over the water and goes "phew, glad I'm not them!"

That was kinda my point. Being part of the EU wouldn't have had any effect on our death rate - which is down to our poor response. However it would have had an impact on the vaccine rollout where we have -to my surprise - done a good job.

So an increasing number of people thinking "I'm glad we aren't in the EU right now" doesn't seem unreasonable.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:31 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:13 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:12 pm
Which particular EU actions have kept the death rate low in EU member countries?

Fuck knows. I would expect it's largely individual government responses.

I do not get the logic that sees 120k dead and looks over the water and goes "phew, glad I'm not them!"

That was kinda my point. Being part of the EU wouldn't have had any effect on our death rate - which is down to our poor response. However it would have had an impact on the vaccine rollout where we have -to my surprise - done a good job.

So an increasing number of people thinking "I'm glad we aren't in the EU right now" doesn't seem unreasonable.

I mean, that involves believing we'd have this exact same government and the exact same response if we were still in the EU, which doesn't make any sense at all. We have a Brexit government.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:25 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:21 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:56 pm

"a growing number of people are happy not to be part of the EU right now" is what I'm responding to. Apparently it's not enough to be happy with our vaccine rollout, now we must think we're better off out of the EU because of it - which requires turning a blind eye to the horrific death rate.

I wouldn’t disagree with that. Would you agree that the Govt., and the country generally, have done an exceptionally good job with the vaccines?

Sure, why not. The NHS probably deserves more of that credit, but the decision to let them handle it has worked, the procurement by the Govt has worked, and the major gamble regarding delaying the doses has seemingly paid off. Quite why you're demanding I praise them when it's not really got anything to do with what I'm talking about is beyond me, though.

Nothing personal.When did a simple question become a demand?

I just think the whole narrative gets a bit distorted sometimes. Unusually, I decided to enter into the discussion.

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:37 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:25 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:21 pm

I wouldn’t disagree with that. Would you agree that the Govt., and the country generally, have done an exceptionally good job with the vaccines?

Sure, why not. The NHS probably deserves more of that credit, but the decision to let them handle it has worked, the procurement by the Govt has worked, and the major gamble regarding delaying the doses has seemingly paid off. Quite why you're demanding I praise them when it's not really got anything to do with what I'm talking about is beyond me, though.

Nothing personal.When did a simple question become a demand?

I just think the whole narrative gets a bit distorted sometimes. Unusually, I decided to enter into the discussion.

Well, you asked me the same question twice, which is pretty demanding!

Well, fuck that, turned well. last time I congratulate the brits

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:36 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:31 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:13 pm

Fuck knows. I would expect it's largely individual government responses.

I do not get the logic that sees 120k dead and looks over the water and goes "phew, glad I'm not them!"

That was kinda my point. Being part of the EU wouldn't have had any effect on our death rate - which is down to our poor response. However it would have had an impact on the vaccine rollout where we have -to my surprise - done a good job.

So an increasing number of people thinking "I'm glad we aren't in the EU right now" doesn't seem unreasonable.

I mean, that involves believing we'd have this exact same government and the exact same response if we were still in the EU, which doesn't make any sense at all. We have a Brexit government.

Exactly, the law of unintended consequences !

To, 'Get Brexit Done'; the last two Cabinets have been packed with MPs who wouldn't have gotten within an asses roar of a Cabinet post, if being Pro-Leave didn't trump competence.

Put a lazy PM on top of the heap; & you aren't setting yourself up for success, if something comes along that needs hard work & intelligence at the top table.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:45 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:36 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:31 pm
That was kinda my point. Being part of the EU wouldn't have had any effect on our death rate - which is down to our poor response. However it would have had an impact on the vaccine rollout where we have -to my surprise - done a good job.

So an increasing number of people thinking "I'm glad we aren't in the EU right now" doesn't seem unreasonable.

I mean, that involves believing we'd have this exact same government and the exact same response if we were still in the EU, which doesn't make any sense at all. We have a Brexit government.

Exactly, the law of unintended consequences !

To, 'Get Brexit Done'; the last two Cabinets have been packed with MPs who wouldn't have gotten within an asses roar of a Cabinet post, if being Pro-Leave didn't trump competence.

Put a lazy PM on top of the heap; & you aren't setting yourself up for success, if something comes along that needs hard work & intelligence at the top table.

The issue with this narrative is that key poor decisions, at least early, came from "following the science". I.e. we didn't close the borders because the government's pandemic response experts (forget the exact name but these documents are/were on the government website and were drawn up by civil servants, public health officials etc) thought it would be ineffective. Face masks etc took forever and we were told by officials that they didn't work. There's a number of other examples.
We also have a good point of comparison, Sturgeon had the same information and, particularly at the start, took very similar decisions.

What I'm getting at here is that we have seen a State failure with covid in the UK. Until the vaccine programme we hadn't had a success and this can't just be blamed on politicians as much as it easy to do. Of course Boris' indecision has contributed to this - the December spike was entirely avoidable - but I think there's a very strong case that based on the expert advice the Government received we wouldn't have seen massive material differences in outcomes regardless of who was in Number 10/the Cabinet.

Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:44 pm Well, fuck that, turned well. last time I congratulate the brits

Could be worse, you could've tried it in Glasgow

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:38 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:37 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:25 pm

Sure, why not. The NHS probably deserves more of that credit, but the decision to let them handle it has worked, the procurement by the Govt has worked, and the major gamble regarding delaying the doses has seemingly paid off. Quite why you're demanding I praise them when it's not really got anything to do with what I'm talking about is beyond me, though.

Nothing personal.When did a simple question become a demand?

I just think the whole narrative gets a bit distorted sometimes. Unusually, I decided to enter into the discussion.

Well, you asked me the same question twice, which is pretty demanding!

Deep breath. You’ll be OK

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:58 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:45 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:36 pm

I mean, that involves believing we'd have this exact same government and the exact same response if we were still in the EU, which doesn't make any sense at all. We have a Brexit government.

Exactly, the law of unintended consequences !

To, 'Get Brexit Done'; the last two Cabinets have been packed with MPs who wouldn't have gotten within an asses roar of a Cabinet post, if being Pro-Leave didn't trump competence.

Put a lazy PM on top of the heap; & you aren't setting yourself up for success, if something comes along that needs hard work & intelligence at the top table.

The issue with this narrative is that key poor decisions, at least early, came from "following the science". I.e. we didn't close the borders because the government's pandemic response experts (forget the exact name but these documents are/were on the government website and were drawn up by civil servants, public health officials etc) thought it would be ineffective. Face masks etc took forever and we were told by officials that they didn't work. There's a number of other examples.
We also have a good point of comparison, Sturgeon had the same information and, particularly at the start, took very similar decisions.

What I'm getting at here is that we have seen a State failure with covid in the UK. Until the vaccine programme we hadn't had a success and this can't just be blamed on politicians as much as it easy to do. Of course Boris' indecision has contributed to this - the December spike was entirely avoidable - but I think there's a very strong case that based on the expert advice the Government received we wouldn't have seen massive material differences in outcomes regardless of who was in Number 10/the Cabinet.

They followed the advice eventually. The scientific advice to lockdown came a week or ten days earlier in the first round and weeks in the current one. They may have saved tens if thousands of lives if they'd gone when the advice was given. The devolved administrations will say they couldn't do it independently until financial guarantees were forthcoming from Westminster - whether you believe that or not most likely depends on your existing political loyalties.

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:20 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:38 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:37 pm

Nothing personal.When did a simple question become a demand?

I just think the whole narrative gets a bit distorted sometimes. Unusually, I decided to enter into the discussion.

Well, you asked me the same question twice, which is pretty demanding!

Deep breath. You’ll be OK

Depends if there's a COVID carrier nearby!

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:29 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:20 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:38 pm

Well, you asked me the same question twice, which is pretty demanding!

Deep breath. You’ll be OK

Depends if there's a COVID carrier nearby!

It’s a fair point

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:27 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:58 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:45 pm

Exactly, the law of unintended consequences !

To, 'Get Brexit Done'; the last two Cabinets have been packed with MPs who wouldn't have gotten within an asses roar of a Cabinet post, if being Pro-Leave didn't trump competence.

Put a lazy PM on top of the heap; & you aren't setting yourself up for success, if something comes along that needs hard work & intelligence at the top table.

The issue with this narrative is that key poor decisions, at least early, came from "following the science". I.e. we didn't close the borders because the government's pandemic response experts (forget the exact name but these documents are/were on the government website and were drawn up by civil servants, public health officials etc) thought it would be ineffective. Face masks etc took forever and we were told by officials that they didn't work. There's a number of other examples.
We also have a good point of comparison, Sturgeon had the same information and, particularly at the start, took very similar decisions.

What I'm getting at here is that we have seen a State failure with covid in the UK. Until the vaccine programme we hadn't had a success and this can't just be blamed on politicians as much as it easy to do. Of course Boris' indecision has contributed to this - the December spike was entirely avoidable - but I think there's a very strong case that based on the expert advice the Government received we wouldn't have seen massive material differences in outcomes regardless of who was in Number 10/the Cabinet.

They followed the advice eventually. The scientific advice to lockdown came a week or ten days earlier in the first round and weeks in the current one. They may have saved tens if thousands of lives if they'd gone when the advice was given. The devolved administrations will say they couldn't do it independently until financial guarantees were forthcoming from Westminster - whether you believe that or not most likely depends on your existing political loyalties.

I think we have lost c40,000 lives since start of December? You would have thought that we would have learned from the first wave? The science was far more robust and the evidence was mounting about what needed to be done. The 2nd/3rd wave and virus mutations were entirely predictable and their impact was forecasted by the modellers - I know as I saw some of the modelling scenarios in mid December. The risks were clearly articulated then. The UK Gov took a conscious decision to not lock down earlier and tried to hold onto their commitment to Xmas, I would argue for political reasons, and by the time they changed their minds and change the message it was too late. They even brought kids back to school for one day, despite the modelling but to avoid the political embarrassment of not keeping to their political commitment. Their inaction has caused many, many thousands of lives in the last 3 months.

The devolved administrations were lucky and acted earlier. They saw the trends down south, they saw the spread of the new English variant and locked down before it could spread further afield. Scotland for example locked down when their number of cases was about half of that in England and they have continued to be about half the level ever since, hence the kids might get back to school earlier. The number of deaths per million in England compared with the devolved administrations has been far higher for the last couple of weeks, double that in Scotland for example, and will continue to be higher because of the significantly higher number of cases per million they have been recording in recent weeks. All of this stems back to the decision, or lack of one, by Boris to close down in time, getting the Xmas messaging fecked up and then bringing kids back to school for a day and letting all the mums spread the virus at the school gate. This isn't a Scotland/Wales/NI v England issue, this is looking at the figures and realising that the Blonde Bumblecunt fecked up big style and the numbers don't lie!

Vaccine strategy has been a success. The UK Gov managed to appoint a competent person to lead on this and we took calculated gambles on investments in drug companies and procurement that have paid off. The work of the uni research depts and drug companies has been fantastic. However the success of the vaccination roll out has been down to the NHS, PH leads and the forces support. It has been miraculous and demonstrated just how good the NHS is when resourced properly. You just wonder how different TTT could have been if we invested in the local PH systems and NHS in the first place instead of an incompetent leader and rip off merchants like Serco and Deliottes.

Does the success in the vaccination programme outweigh having one of the worst death rates and biggest drop in GDP in the world? can we use it to explain away over 110,000 deaths? Not in my book, not by a long way. It would be a sad irony if the herculean efforts of the NHS saves this current Govs bacon given the Blonde Bumblecunt and his Brexit Ultras have always wanted to get rid of it when they got into office.

Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:44 pm Well, fuck that, turned well. last time I congratulate the brits

Don’t worry. Some just get quite upset when the govt are praised, and can’t be criticised on their handling of something.

The congrats was bound to attract some poison.

Ymx wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:11 pm

Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:44 pm Well, fuck that, turned well. last time I congratulate the brits

Don’t worry. Some just get quite upset when the govt are praised, and can’t be criticised on their handling of something.

The congrats was bound to attract some poison.

You think this is bad - try reading the Planet Rugby thread - it's a real shit show and getting worse everyday as more and more ignorant trolls join in.

We've done brilliantly with the vaccine - it's been a huge success. Just a shame we'd done so crappily beforehand.

But at least there's room for optimism now - as long as Boris doesn't give way to the 1922 committee and end the lockdown.restrictions too soon. It's time to really put this thing to the sword now - I'm desperate to be able to see my Grandkids again - but I'd rather stay locked down for too long than too little.