NPR

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:43 am**

These idiots would have voted for TRump.
Thank God they're nowhere near power here anymore!

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:44 am**

Oh and this from that non-elected arsehole Frost

The very welcome victory for @realDonaldTrumpthis morning has come at a crucial time for the West.

For the first time, across all our countries, there are real signs of pushback against the conventional wisdom of recent years. Trump’s victory strengthens this decisively and sets a different course: to dismantle the over-mighty bureaucratic state, control our borders, protect free speech, stand up for historical and biological reality, end disastrous net zero policies, and get the West’s foreign and defence policies in line with our actual capabilities.

A Harris victory would have seen another doubling down on all the policies that got us into this mess.

That’s why so many progressives are so disappointed this morning: they know their ideas are on the way out, and not before time.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:49 am**

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:24 am Tariffs and free trade are both blunt instruments for personal prosperity. Overall and certainly for the line on the graph free trade has been good for western nations. For individuals in certain industries? Much less so. For some communities? Totally devastating. Tax cuts for the richest? Yeah the Americans seem to have a real weakness for it. Temporarily embarrassed millionaires yadayada.

There's always winners and losers from economic change. You can swap "free trade" in your analysis with "automation" and it still works. An effective state and welfare system should mitigate the loss for the losers and ideally provide new opportunities. That's what has happened in the high tax strong welfare parts of Europe. Anglo countries have been more damaged and suffered larger waves of populism, because they opted for free trade and low taxes.

Looks like the US will continue to go isolationist/focus on the North American trading system. The advantages from free trade are significant though, maybe it makes no difference to the US because they're so large, but the potential is there for some relative decline especially if Mexico stops being cheap.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:08 am**

_Os_ wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:49 am
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:24 am Tariffs and free trade are both blunt instruments for personal prosperity. Overall and certainly for the line on the graph free trade has been good for western nations. For individuals in certain industries? Much less so. For some communities? Totally devastating. Tax cuts for the richest? Yeah the Americans seem to have a real weakness for it. Temporarily embarrassed millionaires yadayada.
There's always winners and losers from economic change. You can swap "free trade" in your analysis with "automation" and it still works. An effective state and welfare system should mitigate the loss for the losers and ideally provide new opportunities. That's what has happened in the high tax strong welfare parts of Europe. Anglo countries have been more damaged and suffered larger waves of populism, because they opted for free trade and low taxes.

This is at best a half truth, France, Belgium, Germany etc all have post industrial hellholes just the same as us. Anglo populism is hardly more extensive than the rise of Le Pen, the AfD, whatever is going on in Italy etc. And yes it works the same for automation - it has clear productivity gains but ruins individual lives. As such it would be entirely rational for a lot of people to vote against automation were it on a ballot, same principle as free trade.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:09 am**

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:51 am All this does make me wonder if it’s us being led by the nose by our liberal media, and maybe we are not quite as clever as we think. We’ve stuck our head in the sand and spent 2 years laughing at Trump without perhaps getting the nuance of what he is saying - I’m not saying he is a clever guy, he’s thick as pig shit - and being a bit too self satisfied in our moral superiority whilst being fed what we want to hear.

Surely there are not that many morons in the US. Maybe we’ve massively missed the point and been whipped up by a frenzy of our own making, wrapped up in our own smugness and not seeing the reality

In the UK we have a long standing wrong assumption that the USA is culturally and societally similar to us. The difference is shuffled under the table and we don't talk about it. It's a convenient lie that we tell ourselves so we can position ourselves as 'not European really' without feeling isolated.

There are aspects of their culture which are very different to ours, most obviously in gun ownership but also, and more importantly in other areas like independence from authority, the expectation to make your own fortune, the prominence of individuality in all walks of life, and many other areas. I think these are things that buy into the MAGA message and they just don't click on the same scale in the UK.

We haven't missed the point, it's more that the point doesn't appeal to us as a society to the same degree.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:11 am**

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:08 am
_Os_ wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:49 am
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:24 am Tariffs and free trade are both blunt instruments for personal prosperity. Overall and certainly for the line on the graph free trade has been good for western nations. For individuals in certain industries? Much less so. For some communities? Totally devastating. Tax cuts for the richest? Yeah the Americans seem to have a real weakness for it. Temporarily embarrassed millionaires yadayada.
There's always winners and losers from economic change. You can swap "free trade" in your analysis with "automation" and it still works. An effective state and welfare system should mitigate the loss for the losers and ideally provide new opportunities. That's what has happened in the high tax strong welfare parts of Europe. Anglo countries have been more damaged and suffered larger waves of populism, because they opted for free trade and low taxes.

This is at best a half truth, France, Belgium, Germany etc all have post industrial hellholes just the same as us. Anglo populism is hardly more extensive than the rise of Le Pen, the AfD, whatever is going on in Italy etc. And yes it works the same for automation - it has clear productivity gains but ruins individual lives. As such it would be entirely rational for a lot of people to vote against automation were it on a ballot, same principle as free trade.

Yes, but Germany has managed to generate proper economic development across the whole country - even the former East. Every area of East Germany was a post communist failed statist economy in 1991. Thirty years later every area of East Germany has a higher GDP per person than the UK.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:14 am**

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:11 am
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:08 am
_Os_ wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:49 am
There's always winners and losers from economic change. You can swap "free trade" in your analysis with "automation" and it still works. An effective state and welfare system should mitigate the loss for the losers and ideally provide new opportunities. That's what has happened in the high tax strong welfare parts of Europe. Anglo countries have been more damaged and suffered larger waves of populism, because they opted for free trade and low taxes.

This is at best a half truth, France, Belgium, Germany etc all have post industrial hellholes just the same as us. Anglo populism is hardly more extensive than the rise of Le Pen, the AfD, whatever is going on in Italy etc. And yes it works the same for automation - it has clear productivity gains but ruins individual lives. As such it would be entirely rational for a lot of people to vote against automation were it on a ballot, same principle as free trade.
Yes, but Germany has managed to generate proper economic development across the whole country - even the former East. Every area of East Germany was a post communist failed statist economy in 1991. Thirty years later every area of East Germany has a higher GDP per person than the UK.

yet they vote for post fascist aligned on moscow ...

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:15 am**

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:44 am Oh and this from that non-elected arsehole Frost
The very welcome victory for @realDonaldTrumpthis morning has come at a crucial time for the West.

For the first time, across all our countries, there are real signs of pushback against the conventional wisdom of recent years. Trump’s victory strengthens this decisively and sets a different course: to dismantle the over-mighty bureaucratic state, control our borders, protect free speech, stand up for historical and biological reality, end disastrous net zero policies, and get the West’s foreign and defence policies in line with our actual capabilities.

A Harris victory would have seen another doubling down on all the policies that got us into this mess.

That’s why so many progressives are so disappointed this morning: they know their ideas are on the way out, and not before time.

Eventually people in the UK are going to work out the UK isn't the US, that the overuse of the term "West" to describe a changeable list of countries as one place does not work when applied to every granular detail, and that it all looks a bit desperate.

Frosty doesn't understand a Trump victory is bad for the UK because he has America Brain, on some level he's imagining he's American. What does he think "get the West’s foreign and defence policies in line with our actual capabilities" really means? Because what it doesn't mean is the entire West (which given US strength could crush anyone) will have policies which match capabilities, what it means is the US isn't doing anything. Which means if Europe wants to defend itself from Putin it has to pay, which means less spending on everything else (real terms Europeans get poorer). Once Europe has achieved this it'll mean "the West" no longer exists, Europe would rival US power. Which is why the US didn't want a strong Russia, but less obviously it didn't want a strong Germany/France/UK.

The similarities between the US and the UK can be boiled down to the following two things: They both speak English, they both use a falling apart FPTP electoral system in which one of the two dominant parties the FPTP system must produce has become a bad actor. If they're the same and their interests are aligned and so on, where's the excellent trade deal?

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:18 am**

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:11 am
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:08 am
_Os_ wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:49 am
There's always winners and losers from economic change. You can swap "free trade" in your analysis with "automation" and it still works. An effective state and welfare system should mitigate the loss for the losers and ideally provide new opportunities. That's what has happened in the high tax strong welfare parts of Europe. Anglo countries have been more damaged and suffered larger waves of populism, because they opted for free trade and low taxes.

This is at best a half truth, France, Belgium, Germany etc all have post industrial hellholes just the same as us. Anglo populism is hardly more extensive than the rise of Le Pen, the AfD, whatever is going on in Italy etc. And yes it works the same for automation - it has clear productivity gains but ruins individual lives. As such it would be entirely rational for a lot of people to vote against automation were it on a ballot, same principle as free trade.
Yes, but Germany has managed to generate proper economic development across the whole country - even the former East. Every area of East Germany was a post communist failed statist economy in 1991. Thirty years later every area of East Germany has a higher GDP per person than the UK.

Oh I fully agree with you on this point re:investment and development, both in the German context and how it is required at home. It hasn’t been cost free however - Germany has essentially abandoned a lot of small towns in East Germany in favour of concentration on viable cities, not sure a British government would have the balls or that it’s so viable in a country the size of America. And as Laurent and I have pointed out, they vote AfD anyway

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:39 am**

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:14 am
Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:11 am
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:08 am

This is at best a half truth, France, Belgium, Germany etc all have post industrial hellholes just the same as us. Anglo populism is hardly more extensive than the rise of Le Pen, the AfD, whatever is going on in Italy etc. And yes it works the same for automation - it has clear productivity gains but ruins individual lives. As such it would be entirely rational for a lot of people to vote against automation were it on a ballot, same principle as free trade.
Yes, but Germany has managed to generate proper economic development across the whole country - even the former East. Every area of East Germany was a post communist failed statist economy in 1991. Thirty years later every area of East Germany has a higher GDP per person than the UK.
yet they vote for post fascist aligned on moscow ...

The AfD has stagnant support. The problem with Germany is how unique its circumstances are/were. It's possible in an alternate reality where they didn't spend like they did, that they would now look more like Ukraine than France.

Paddington - Free trade and automation, AI (the extent of its utility still unproven) also on the list? There's a point where luddites just become full on King Cnut (to mix my metaphors). A few years back polling in Sweden showed a super majority (90% from memory) for AI and robots, in other words maximum automation, Swedes knew their state would ensure the gains would be redistributed to them. Funny thing is the right (in the UK at least) demands automation just like they did free trade, they think the economic change will be limited to reducing immigration.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:42 am**

_Os_ wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:39 am
It's possible in an alternate reality where they didn't spend like they did, that they would now look more like Ukraine than France.

Kind of proves the point that investment grows your economy, 'leaving it to the market' turns it into a wasteland.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:47 am**

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:42 am
_Os_ wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:39 am
It's possible in an alternate reality where they didn't spend like they did, that they would now look more like Ukraine than France.

Kind of proves the point that investment grows your economy, 'leaving it to the market' turns it into a wasteland.

Only greedy, nefarious people ever believed Maggie and Ronold.

Now we live in another world......

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:18 pm**

Sorry if already covered - what happens to all the court cases now?

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:19 pm**

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:18 pm Sorry if already covered - what happens to all the court cases now?

Federal ones, he can pardon himself.

Anything bought at state level becomes rather more complex and you'll see some kinds of shitshow between the state courts and the supreme court. He's obviously going to pretend he can pardon himself for absolutely anything, but that's not really the case.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:21 pm**

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:18 pm Sorry if already covered - what happens to all the court cases now?

Came across this summary of the situation.

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-ba ... n-victory/

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:48 pm**

Deepsouth wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:47 am
Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:42 am
_Os_ wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:39 am It's possible in an alternate reality where they didn't spend like they did, that they would now look more like Ukraine than France.
Kind of proves the point that investment grows your economy, 'leaving it to the market' turns it into a wasteland.
Only greedy, nefarious people ever believed Maggie and Ronold.

Now we live in another world......

Whilst I agree that unfettered capitalism is only good for a few and generally bad for everyone else, there is a middle ground where there are controls to prevent the worst excesses of capitalism and to protect whisly preserving the upsides. Personally I think this country is in thrall to the markets and private enterprise and either do not put in the necessary controls or do not enforce them.

Water privatisation is a case in point. The basis on which it was privatised allowed investors to sail in and divert income that should have gone into investment into their own pockets. Ofwat was utterly toothless not even enforcing the powers it has. Privatisation turned the water companies into a money tree for investors rather than ensuring that the investors only made a return if they improved the system so there was a shared benefit for them and customers.

We seem to do this over and over in the UK. We happily privatise / outsource things on contracts that remove risk for the private company rather than tying reward to improved service where the private company only prospers if customers do.

Mind you, I have seen large private firms do likewise where outsourcing is an unmitigated disaster for everyone but the outsourcers.

Edit
We have not reached US levels yet where the country seems to be run as a mechanism for moving wealth from the poor to the rich.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:34 pm**

weegie01 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:48 pm
Deepsouth wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:47 am
Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:42 am

Kind of proves the point that investment grows your economy, 'leaving it to the market' turns it into a wasteland.
Only greedy, nefarious people ever believed Maggie and Ronold.

Now we live in another world......
Whilst I agree that unfettered capitalism is only good for a few and generally bad for everyone else, there is a middle ground where there are controls to prevent the worst excesses of capitalism and to protect whisly preserving the upsides. Personally I think this country is in thrall to the markets and private enterprise and either do not put in the necessary controls or do not enforce them.

Water privatisation is a case in point. The basis on which it was privatised allowed investors to sail in and divert income that should have gone into investment into their own pockets. Ofwat was utterly toothless not even enforcing the powers it has. Privatisation turned the water companies into a money tree for investors rather than ensuring that the investors only made a return if they improved the system so there was a shared benefit for them and customers.

We seem to do this over and over in the UK. We happily privatise / outsource things on contracts that remove risk for the private company rather than tying reward to improved service where the private company only prospers if customers do.

Mind you, I have seen large private firms do likewise where outsourcing is an unmitigated disaster for everyone but the outsourcers.

Edit
We have not reached US levels yet where the country seems to be run as a mechanism for moving wealth from the poor to the rich.

I disagree. Corruption is everywhere. Integrity and doing the right thing seems to be the exception. At all levels.

Reminds me of Rome circa Nero. And doesn't that orange shit bag remind one of that insurcure theatrical fiddler.....

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:14 pm**

So are we going to have WW3 soon? In one of his speeches Trump said he would declare war on any country trying to de-dollarize and stop using the dollar. There are currently at least 150 countries that are actively looking into de-dollarizing

For the Global South, it does not really matter who is the president, they are always treated the same by the USA. So I hope they continue on the current path of getting away from the USA's influences.
It is going to be a much bigger problem for those that listen to every instruction the USA gives them, like the EU and the G7. Economically they might be in for a hard time if Trump keeps his word on what he wants to do. (They will hope Trump sticks to being a lier and not do anything he said he would)

It is unbelievable that the USA still have so much influence over the G7 and the EU, this election once again says a lot about the average American and it is generally not good. It is radicicolous that the West are happy to be vassals to the USA.
I hope the next 4 years speeds up the losing of influence of the USA even more. (Though it is most likely farfetched unless the West start growing a backbone.)

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:24 pm**

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:30 am
Kiwias wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:21 am
Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:51 am All this does make me wonder if it’s us being led by the nose by our liberal media, and maybe we are not quite as clever as we think. We’ve stuck our head in the sand and spent 2 years laughing at Trump without perhaps getting the nuance of what he is saying - I’m not saying he is a clever guy, he’s thick as pig shit - and being a bit too self satisfied in our moral superiority whilst being fed what we want to hear.

Surely there are not that many morons in the US. Maybe we’ve massively missed the point and been whipped up by a frenzy of our own making, wrapped up in our own smugness and not seeing the reality
What is that reality? That America is at heart a deeply racist, misogynist country?
Well that sums up my point really. Maybe they have issues and concerns that we are just unable or unwilling to engage with, much easier to call them names. It’s happening across the world and we just say how awful they all are whilst people move to more extremist position as the only way of being heard

We tried the "listen to them" approach and also "going high when they go low".

Got kerb stomped.
What's your suggestion?

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:29 pm**

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:42 am
_Os_ wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:39 am
It's possible in an alternate reality where they didn't spend like they did, that they would now look more like Ukraine than France.

Kind of proves the point that investment grows your economy, 'leaving it to the market' turns it into a wasteland.

It's almost like having a playground with no maintenance or adult supervision and congratulating yourself that the children who didn't die are "stronger".

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:42 pm**

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:24 pm
Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:30 am
Kiwias wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:21 am

What is that reality? That America is at heart a deeply racist, misogynist country?
Well that sums up my point really. Maybe they have issues and concerns that we are just unable or unwilling to engage with, much easier to call them names. It’s happening across the world and we just say how awful they all are whilst people move to more extremist position as the only way of being heard
We tried the "listen to them" approach and also "going high when they go low".

Got kerb stomped.
What's your suggestion?

When they were listened to Biden won by a mile!

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:43 pm**

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:24 pm
Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:30 am
Kiwias wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:21 am

What is that reality? That America is at heart a deeply racist, misogynist country?
Well that sums up my point really. Maybe they have issues and concerns that we are just unable or unwilling to engage with, much easier to call them names. It’s happening across the world and we just say how awful they all are whilst people move to more extremist position as the only way of being heard
We tried the "listen to them" approach and also "going high when they go low".

Got kerb stomped.
What's your suggestion?

We haven’t tried anything

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:18 pm**

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:43 pm
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:24 pm
Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:30 am

Well that sums up my point really. Maybe they have issues and concerns that we are just unable or unwilling to engage with, much easier to call them names. It’s happening across the world and we just say how awful they all are whilst people move to more extremist position as the only way of being heard
We tried the "listen to them" approach and also "going high when they go low".

Got kerb stomped.
What's your suggestion?
We haven’t tried anything

Biden was unlucky that Russie invaded Ukraine and set off an inflationary spiral.

The US is just a turbocharged version of everywhere in the west. Economies getting more unequal and society becoming more isolated causing real anger.

Basically every election these days is a power exchange between the right and the centre. The right gets in and doesn't really achieve anything for their voters because they aren't serious governors so the centre gets reelected who also don't then change things for their voters because they lack any policies that can bring in change as its usually not really in their interests.

I had hope for Biden and Bidenomics but it's clear the Democrats don't really believe in it and are obviously out of touch. But this result will be seen everywhere there's a centrist government. The right will take over. Rinse and repeat until something really bad happens.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:46 pm**

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:42 pm
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:24 pm
Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:30 am

Well that sums up my point really. Maybe they have issues and concerns that we are just unable or unwilling to engage with, much easier to call them names. It’s happening across the world and we just say how awful they all are whilst people move to more extremist position as the only way of being heard
We tried the "listen to them" approach and also "going high when they go low".

Got kerb stomped.
What's your suggestion?
When they were listened to Biden won by a mile!

I'm listening now. Go for it.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:17 pm**

All very depressing. The bookies were right.

I'm currently in the Dominican Republic for work, and the reaction here seems to be positive. They like a strong dollar, so a Trump win is good. There seems to be no problem with his abhorrent behaviour here.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:24 pm**

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:46 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:42 pm
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:24 pm

We tried the "listen to them" approach and also "going high when they go low".

Got kerb stomped.
What's your suggestion?
When they were listened to Biden won by a mile!
I'm listening now. Go for it.

I’m not an American swing voter.

Clearly it is hard to be elected to govern a country in which you hold a significant number of voters in varying degrees of contempt, staggeringly the Democrats outside of Joe Biden haven’t seemed to grasp this.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:34 pm**

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:24 pm
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:46 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:42 pm

When they were listened to Biden won by a mile!
I'm listening now. Go for it.
I’m not an American swing voter.

Clearly it is hard to be elected to govern a country in which you hold a significant number of voters in varying degrees of contempt, staggeringly the Democrats outside of Joe Biden haven’t seemed to grasp this.

Joe Biden did call Trump voters garbage like two weeks ago

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:48 pm**

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:34 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:24 pm
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:46 pm

I'm listening now. Go for it.
I’m not an American swing voter.

Clearly it is hard to be elected to govern a country in which you hold a significant number of voters in varying degrees of contempt, staggeringly the Democrats outside of Joe Biden haven’t seemed to grasp this.
Joe Biden did call Trump voters garbage like two weeks ago

I think you have to cut off Biden post mental frailty from the man he was before

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:49 pm**

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:24 pm
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:46 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:42 pm

When they were listened to Biden won by a mile!
I'm listening now. Go for it.
I’m not an American swing voter.

Clearly it is hard to be elected to govern a country in which you hold a significant number of voters in varying degrees of contempt, staggeringly the Democrats outside of Joe Biden haven’t seemed to grasp this.

Not if your name is Donald Trump, it would seem.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 5:19 pm**

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:24 pm
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:46 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:42 pm

When they were listened to Biden won by a mile!
I'm listening now. Go for it.
I’m not an American swing voter.

Clearly it is hard to be elected to govern a country in which you hold a significant number of voters in varying degrees of contempt, staggeringly the Democrats outside of Joe Biden haven’t seemed to grasp this.

But what is it that Biden listened to that Harris didn't?

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 5:29 pm**

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:49 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:24 pm
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:46 pm

I'm listening now. Go for it.
I’m not an American swing voter.

Clearly it is hard to be elected to govern a country in which you hold a significant number of voters in varying degrees of contempt, staggeringly the Democrats outside of Joe Biden haven’t seemed to grasp this.
Not if your name is Donald Trump, it would seem.

Exactly, people get what they vote for. It'll become self-reinforcing too. If bad actors keep winning, then everyone else starts giving up. This Vance character looks like a potential heir, so it could have legs beyond Trump. In the UK if a loony Tory party get back in next time, those most able to ignore it all (those economically insulated from the impact) would be more likely to decide privately "the UK is fucking done", then they ignore it all, rather than engaging with it and fighting like they did with Brexit/Big Dog/Truss.

African politics 101, the demagogues always exploit the vulnerable, the middle class in the big cities always give up. Then the decline becomes more rapid. Austerity/collapsing the state is a very bad idea, the political reality it creates is starting to look more like places which never had much of a state.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 6:41 pm**

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 5:19 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:24 pm
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:46 pm

I'm listening now. Go for it.
I’m not an American swing voter.

Clearly it is hard to be elected to govern a country in which you hold a significant number of voters in varying degrees of contempt, staggeringly the Democrats outside of Joe Biden haven’t seemed to grasp this.
But what is it that Biden listened to that Harris didn't?

American politics is complex. In this case though if we look at who put Trump back into power it was American males. Across all walks of life. When pretty much everywhere regardless of rural, urban or otherwise tilts right it’s about brand. Every politician needs something that appeals to voters and the US men didn’t like Harris. If we think back to when Dem primaries were being considered and likely candidates everybody dismissed Harris as being unelectable. And despite the efforts put in that poor brand image never really changed in the public eye beyond that she was somebody ‘not-Trump’. She was black and a woman, immediate issues. And then she was not the right type of woman. Michelle Obama could likely have carried it off, she is the right kind of woman, two kids, a supportive wife.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 6:54 pm**

_Os_ wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 5:29 pmExactly, people get what they vote for.

Yep, in a democracy the people get the government they deserve.

So, they voted for the mass deportation of even legal immigrants, Drill Baby Drill, abandoning Ukraine to Putin, massive tariffs on imports, more huge tax cuts for the top 1%, a federal abortion ban, relaxed background checks on gun buyers, restrictions on the free press, book bannings, persecution of non-heterosexual non-white people...

...and that's just for starters.

Things are gonna get very ugly indeed.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:04 pm**

There is another side to this though. The underlying swings to the right is pretty much universal in all western democracies. Look at ACT in NZ for example. Somehow the western democracies have to come to terms with themselves and the progressives who are taking actions that are for a small % of the population but affect everybody. There is a base resentment being created that is too easily manipulated. We need a better social dynamic than us vs them.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:09 pm**

convoluted wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:03 am
Flockwitt wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 11:10 am ...You haven't heard Harris state her policies every opportunity she gets?...
Oh, that's wonderful Flockwitt.
Having apparently heard Heels Up state her policies over and over and deciphered them, you can easily clarify for us whether the real Harris agenda is the one as depicted on the left in this illustration or the one on the right.

Kamala's defeat owed entirely to Flockwitt's failure to clarify the above, despite his claim to know what she stood for.
After all, at 200 plus pages it was always going to be this thread and its astute political pundit contributors who would determine the election result.

Well, either that or the thread was just a sad bunch of Old Darlings having a 200-page group wank as they gormlessly swallowed then regurgitated to each other whatever crap the MSM-Democrat-Swamp filled their vapid little heads with.
But what was even worse was the unseemly cowardice of any of you to ever dare suggest to your clique that maybe cutting the tits and dicks off adolescents without parental consent might be wrong, that opening the border to absolutely anyone was a bad idea, that DEI would inevitably degrade standards, that the lawfare attempt to jail and bankrupt the main political opponent was every bit as evil as the attempted assassination that followed when the first option backfired, and so on ad nauseum.

Oh, and with the festive season fast approaching, here's a little reminder to you all from Heels Up:
https://youtube.com/shorts/y7F2gspmO3s? ... mB8wGsmkN7

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:13 pm**

Obviously there's still some vote tallying to do, so we can't do a direct comparison of totals yet, but it's interesting looking at 2020 vs. 2024.

2020:
Biden - 81, 283, 501
Trump - 74, 223, 975

At present it looks like Trump is going to hit roughly that same total, but the Dems are way off the turnout for Biden. They're going to need to take a really hard look at where those votes went, because it's not like a huge number of them suddenly flipped if Trump's running about the same as last time.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:34 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:24 pm
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:46 pm

I'm listening now. Go for it.
I’m not an American swing voter.

Clearly it is hard to be elected to govern a country in which you hold a significant number of voters in varying degrees of contempt, staggeringly the Democrats outside of Joe Biden haven’t seemed to grasp this.
Joe Biden did call Trump voters garbage like two weeks ago

And the pearl clutching from a side whose candidate for president routinely insults people, both personally and en masse was absurd, not to mention supporters following suit.

It's another example of finding it difficult to meet them where they are. At a fundamental level a lot of them want the freedom to do what they want, but not extend it to others and the rest are at the very least ok with the double standard. How do you reconcile with that?

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:19 pm**

Flockwitt wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:04 pm There is another side to this though. The underlying swings to the right is pretty much universal in all western democracies. Look at ACT in NZ for example. Somehow the western democracies have to come to terms with themselves and the progressives who are taking actions that are for a small % of the population but affect everybody. There is a base resentment being created that is too easily manipulated. We need a better social dynamic than us vs them.

Is it progressives taking decisions or is it a bunch of centrist neo-libs whose progressive credentials extend to being LGBTQ+ friendly?

Cost of living, the widening gap between haves and have nots and the subsequent impact on housing, delayed life progress etc. seem to be what drives a lot of discontent and that is 100% down to the economic status quo upheld by most western establishment parties. I get the rage and frustration with the establishment on that score even though I struggle with people thinking righties who want to give predatory capitalism even more of a free reign are the answer.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:26 pm**

Flockwitt wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:04 pm There is another side to this though. The underlying swings to the right is pretty much universal in all western democracies. Look at ACT in NZ for example. Somehow the western democracies have to come to terms with themselves and the progressives who are taking actions that are for a small % of the population but affect everybody. There is a base resentment being created that is too easily manipulated. We need a better social dynamic than us vs them.

Sorry but what kind of actions are these?

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:11 pm**

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:26 pm
Flockwitt wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:04 pm There is another side to this though. The underlying swings to the right is pretty much universal in all western democracies. Look at ACT in NZ for example. Somehow the western democracies have to come to terms with themselves and the progressives who are taking actions that are for a small % of the population but affect everybody. There is a base resentment being created that is too easily manipulated. We need a better social dynamic than us vs them.
Sorry but what kind of actions are these?

Let’s look at the US. Here’s a rant from a never Trumper who hates the MAGA virus.

That said, I do not let democrats off the hook. In my opinion, the post-mortem should be that regular, moderate people are sick of being told they are "transphobic' if they don't think that boys should be able to compete against girls. They are sick of hypocritical "land acknowledgments" in classrooms and boardrooms that serve no purpose other than to virtue signal and "feel good". If a university or some company feels the need to acknowledge the "un-ceded" land of the Duwamish or Tulalip, then by all means go down to the title company and sign over the deed to your land to the tribe. Regular people are tired of the self righteous mask-scolds who loved locking down businesses causing them to fail (but hey, no problem for tech people who can work from home, right?) and closing schools while kids suffered. They are sick of stupid semantic games like illegal immigrant = "undocumented alien" and "homeless" = "unhoused". They are sick of real debate being stifled by catchy phrases like "check your privilege". They are sick of Thomas Jefferson Middle School being renamed because Jefferson owned slaves. They are sick of Harry Potter being "Problematic" because you know, JKR is a bigoted "TERF". They are sick of the whole multibillion dollar racial grievance industry. They are sick of all the smug smarmy libs telling them they don't know "what is good for them" because they aren't college educated and work with their hands and that their gas stove is bad. They are tired of the hylerbole "If Trump wins we will be rounded up and put in internment camps". I am getting texts today from liberal friends saying that "now we know what the Jews in Germany felt like in 1937". We have schools that are allowing kids to skip class today to "grieve". Any dictator that promises Trump a few hotels will have a blank check with this idiot. But I am not letting our own progressives off the hook for his rise.

Posted: **Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:10 pm**

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:26 pm
Flockwitt wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:04 pm There is another side to this though. The underlying swings to the right is pretty much universal in all western democracies. Look at ACT in NZ for example. Somehow the western democracies have to come to terms with themselves and the progressives who are taking actions that are for a small % of the population but affect everybody. There is a base resentment being created that is too easily manipulated. We need a better social dynamic than us vs them.
Sorry but what kind of actions are these?

Immigration. The states, UK, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, France etc etc, it’s immigration

NPR

President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall

Re: President Biden and US politics catchall